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I love Edith Piaf and her singing is absolutely out of this world. But I can't understand how does she pronounce the "R" sound while singing. Is it like the Spanish "R" made with the tongue or is it like modern-day French "r" using the throat but just super elongated. I saw previous posts asking this same question but it's still unclear to me because people are introducing terminology in their answers that I don't understand.
Here is song where she does it : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6wjCcWC2aE but she basically does it in every song.
Just simply put is that sound made with the tongue or with the throat ? And if its done with the throat - how?
I am fairly certain it is a uvular trill. This means she's vibrating her uvula in a way similar to how one's tongue vibrates when pronouncing a Spanish "r." It may be slightly velarized, meaning that her tongue may be partially blocking airflow out on the mouth in the same region in the mouth used to make the "k/q" sound as in "kiosque."
Edit: Misspelling
The Spanish R involves tongue, this R is uvular only. The sound is a little different but the tongue is not involved. It's the French R but she elongates it, pushing more air. It's how French people uses to pronounce Rs, you can hear it when some older French people speak.
Are you sure the tongue is not involved? I can produce this R without issue (in French & dutch it is often appropriate), but i always thought it was the far back of the tongue against the back-roof of the throat.
I know nothing about lingustics but I can say for certain that the back of the tongue is used to from a cavity restricting the air flow towards the back of the palate.
I would not be able to do that sort of r without a tongue.
I know it's not, I'm just trying to explain trills. I said it was with the uvula.
Edit: the reason I said it might use the tongue in the velar region is because I can make a similar sound to how her "r"s sound when I velarize my uvular trills; of course this could be completely wrong or different from how French people usually do it.
He said that it is a trill in the sense that it vibrates rapidly
This is wrong. You are right in that the Spanish 'r' is an alveolar trill, meaning that the tip of the tongue vibrates against the alveolar ridge (just above your teeth inside your mouth). However, the uvular trill also necessitates the use of the tongue, specifically the back of the tongue (or the dorsum), which the uvula vibrates against. (Unfortunately, the speaker in the uvular trill MRI video I've linked doesn't have the cleanest pronunciation of this sound, but the location is correct.)
Edit: phrasing
It's not the dorsum that vibrates in a uvular trill, it's the uvula. The dorsum isn't flexible enough to produce a trill, which is why palatal or velar trills don't exist.
Correct! I realize now that the way I phrased it above makes it sound like the tongue is vibrating, not the uvula (as is the case).
I'm no expert but being native it seems that this R comes from a vibration between the back of the mouth and the back of the tongue.
If you like these R you should like this song too https://youtu.be/KSAic8ikyxo
Thank you for the lovely song. And yes, I think its very similar to what Edith is doing but she seems to be able to hold the note on "R" for much longer and also louder than Mireille. I can pronounce the word "Paris" like Mireille but I can't hold the "R" like Edith no matter what I try.
Oh j’adore cette chanson et la belle Mireille!
Il me semble qu'elle fait ce qu'on appelle dans le langage courant un R grasseyé, donc qui n'utilise pas la langue comme les R roulé (à l'espagnole).
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consonne_roulée_uvulaire_voisée
The R she is producing comes from the throat. Put some water in your mouth, tilt back your head and gargle.
That's the type of throat movement you want to have to produce that sound, except, well, without water.
Georges Brassens also does it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSAzyMceCOA
And, that's what I was going for:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZHDLerCe8g
How? Like you did the hard "th". Our throat (larynx, sternum, vocal ropes) is just a regular sounding part of our tongue. Throating sounds are made with the sternum and the breathing system, don't over use your throat in that goal. However this R made by Piaf was the common "R" in early 20th century, we swiped quite recently at a more harder "R", so don't use it. It's very old fashion, and discomfortable for natives.
What do you mean by discomfortable ? They don't like it when somebody speaks to them using that "R" or like it's hard for them to do it.
It's not hard at all but you have the impression to speak like le vieux Michou né en 1910 qui garde secret son coin à champignons. It's like using thee or thou in english for a foreigner it will be very very strange and old fashionned
r/edithpiaf
It's the regular French glottal r, just longer. Jacques Brel also used it in his singing. Previous singers like Maurice Chevalier used the Spanish-like rolled r, that is also used in classical music and opera.
Gurgle