Criteria for God's Word

cvanwey · Nov 10, 2020

Tree of Life said:
Please note that I am not claiming in this thread that the Bible is the word of God. I'm only trying to think of general criteria for determining God's words, assuming that he has spoken.

Fair enough... But by your own admission, consistency would look to require the discard of the one Book for which you likely believe. This then presents a cognitive dissonance. Right?

And furthermore, based upon your given criteria, looks as though you really have not narrowed the claims down at all?

A human, alone, has the ability to write a consistent book, claiming to be from God, but not actually being so, right?

Tree of Life said:
It is possible. That's why there is more than one criterion.

Okay?

But many books claim to be divine. So? The only alternative reason you have given to support the claims of being from God, is by way of consistency. But if we agree to the above that humans can write a consistent book, claim it to be from a god, then what do you really have?

Please re-note your other reasons again:

2. It should be consistent with itself.
3. It should be consistent with what we know through reason.
4. It should provide information otherwise unattainable through reason.

And the last 'criteria'...:

'Universally accessible'...

Many can be... This does not narrow down your search really?

***************

This is why, in many cases, the criteria starts and ends with 'prophecy'. But do we really have any books with true 'prophecy'? Or do we instead have vague pronouncements, left to wide interpretation?

Loversofjesus_2018 · Nov 10, 2020

BNR32FAN said:
Killing a child is murder according to the law and God has taught that we are to obey the laws of the land and respect the governing authorities.

“Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭13:1-2‬ ‭NASB

So was it against God for a slave to run away since it was against the laws of the land? Is that accurate according to scripture?

Loversofjesus_2018 · Nov 10, 2020

cvanwey said:
Fair enough... But by your own admission, consistency would look to require the discard of the one Book for which you likely believe. This then presents a cognitive dissonance. Right?

And furthermore, based upon your given criteria, looks as though you really have not narrowed the claims down at all?

A human, alone, has the ability to write a consistent book, claiming to be from God, but not actually being so, right?

Okay?

But many books claim to be divine. So? The only alternative reason you have given to support the claims of being from God, is by way of consistency. But if we agree to the above that humans can write a consistent book, claim it to be from a god, then what do you really have?

Please re-note your other reasons again:

2. It should be consistent with itself.
3. It should be consistent with what we know through reason.
4. It should provide information otherwise unattainable through reason.

And the last 'criteria'...:

'Universally accessible'...

Many can be... This does not narrow down your search really?

***************

This is why, in many cases, the criteria starts and ends with 'prophecy'. But do we really have any books with true 'prophecy'? Or do we instead have vague pronouncements, left to wide interpretation?

From what I’m reading most people have there own interpretations of it all. Which sucks for me because I’m looking for actual truth not what everyone thinks God says

Tree of Life · Nov 11, 2020

cvanwey said:
Fair enough... But by your own admission, consistency would look to require the discard of the one Book for which you likely believe. This then presents a cognitive dissonance. Right?

I don't believe the Bible is inconsistent with itself.

And furthermore, based upon your given criteria, looks as though you really have not narrowed the claims down at all?

A human, alone, has the ability to write a consistent book, claiming to be from God, but not actually being so, right?

Perhaps. But the Bible is not written by one person, it's written by many people. And I don't think that many people writing together over a period of several thousand years has a high probability of being consistent without divine help. Furthermore, human beings alone could not meet the other criteria laid out - especially criterion number 4.

Okay?

But many books claim to be divine. So? The only alternative reason you have given to support the claims of being from God, is by way of consistency. But if we agree to the above that humans can write a consistent book, claim it to be from a god, then what do you really have?

Please re-note your other reasons again:

2. It should be consistent with itself.
3. It should be consistent with what we know through reason.
4. It should provide information otherwise unattainable through reason.

And the last 'criteria'...:

'Universally accessible'...

Many can be... This does not narrow down your search really?

I would argue that something like the Quran or the book of Mormon is not universally accessible because they were written so late (especially the book of Mormon). It was not accessible for most of human history.

This is why, in many cases, the criteria starts and ends with 'prophecy'. But do we really have any books with true 'prophecy'? Or do we instead have vague pronouncements, left to wide interpretation?

Isaiah prophesied that Judah would fall to Babylon 200 years before it happened and that Babylon would fall to Persia and a Persian king named Cyrus would cause the Jews to return to Jerusalem.

This prophesy is so incredibly accurate and specific that liberal scholars (who do not believe in the possibility of predictive prophesy) conclude that Isaiah must have been written after these events and not before.

cvanwey · Nov 11, 2020

Loversofjesus_2018 said:
From what I’m reading most people have there own interpretations of it all. Which sucks for me because I’m looking for actual truth not what everyone thinks God says

Well, did you discover the truth you were looking for? If so, how exactly was [your] criteria met?

I, myself, do not know what criteria would exactly sway me to YHWH? Just as I do not know exactly what would sway me to any other claimed and asserted god(s) of present day, or the past?

cvanwey · Nov 11, 2020

Tree of Life said:
I don't believe the Bible is inconsistent with itself.

How is that possible without explaining away what I have already mentioned, for which you have so far ignored? (i.e.)

God issues the golden rule to all humans - both in the OT and the NT alike. Yet, God also tells humans it is fine to own and also inherit other fellow humans, as lifetime property. This observation alone looks to be a demonstration of inconsistency.

Tree of Life said:
Perhaps. But the Bible is not written by one person, it's written by many people.

So?

It would be slightly peculiar if the other authors were not already aware of other existing writings; but I doubt this was the case? And even if it was, the final writings were later formulated and tabulated by the church. --> A group of people whom already believed, and were likely bias to promote their beliefs. Heck, many have even later likely added, subtracted, or augmented earlier publications. We see clear representation of this in Mark 16:9-20, for example. I trust we also agree that not everything, which was written back then, made it into the final canon? The church decided what made the cut...

Tree of Life said:
And I don't think that many people writing together over a period of several thousand years has a high probability of being consistent without divine help. Furthermore, human beings alone could not meet the other criteria laid out - especially criterion number 4.

It is not consistent. Please again observe, just for starters, Leviticus 19:18 and Leviticus 19:34 (vs) Leviticus 25:44-46. This looks to be a discrepancy...

Tree of Life said:
I would argue that something like the Quran or the book of Mormon is not universally accessible because they were written so late (especially the book of Mormon). It was not accessible for most of human history.

This response makes little to no sense. 'Human history' was around long before the OT. If God so loves His people, why wait at all to start issuing commands and laws? And furthermore, I have to ask, do you subscribe to the young earth assertion of ~6K years? I'm not quite sure why having a Book, which is about a 1K years older than the Qur'an, makes it more viable?

Tree of Life said:
Isaiah prophesied that Judah would fall to Babylon 200 years before it happened and that Babylon would fall to Persia and a Persian king named Cyrus would cause the Jews to return to Jerusalem.

This prophesy is so incredibly accurate and specific that liberal scholars (who do not believe in the possibility of predictive prophesy) conclude that Isaiah must have been written after these events and not before.

I mentioned 'prophecy', because this is what a lot of believers used, (not you), as demonstration that the Bible is from God. So I first have to ask...

Is this your main reason? You certainly did not mention it as one of your existing criteria. If it is, then we can explore your new assertion. But if it is not one of your criteria, as to why you think the Bible is the Word of God, then let's not even bother

Loversofjesus_2018 · Nov 11, 2020

cvanwey said:
Well, did you discover the truth you were looking for? If so, how exactly was [your] criteria met?

I, myself, do not know what criteria would exactly sway me to YHWH? Just as I do not know exactly what would sway me to any other claimed and asserted god(s) of present day, or the past?

Not exactly lol... but what I have observed is that no one really knows what they are talking about. If they did they wouldn’t use words like “I think” and “maybe what God meant”... when I hear those words I get skeptical. What I see really as I’m observing these dialogues I realize the contradictions. On one hand we all claim to know the truth completely but then use words like “it’s more plausible” or “in my opinion”. That tells me we don’t really know if I’m being completely honest.

pitabread · Nov 11, 2020

Tree of Life said:
God is the person who created the universe.

This isn't a particularly useful definition since it doesn't define what you mean by "person" and it assumes that the universe was created.

cvanwey · Nov 11, 2020

Loversofjesus_2018 said:
Not exactly lol...

Are you a Christian, unbeliever, other?

Loversofjesus_2018 said:
but what I have observed is that no one really knows what they are talking about. If they did they wouldn’t use words like “I think” and “maybe what God meant”...

No answer has 100% certainty. We go by levels of confidence; regardless of the claim or assertion. I, myself, realize you can place yourself into quite a little pigeon hole, by merely asserting a truth of any kind virtually

Many here 'likely' follow the same route or path...

Loversofjesus_2018 said:
when I hear those words I get skeptical.

I'm also quite skeptical. Especially when I see assertions, which look to lack reason for me. This thread is quite interesting, because I gather you will get a wide variety of responses for such 'criteria.' The question then becomes... Are such people willing to have their 'criteria' challenged?

It's quite fascinating to see what makes other's tick. It's also quite interesting, because when many/most/all are pressed about their 'core beliefs', they often cannot place a direct 'finger' on 'why' they believe what they believe.

It is only through years of exploration, as to why I doubt the Bible as God's Word.

Loversofjesus_2018 said:
What I see really as I’m observing these dialogues I realize the contradictions.

Do you see contradiction in the Bible? And if so, does it matter? Maybe God is not consistent? Maybe just because something has the power to create, does not mean they are also 'perfect' or 'good'?.?.?.?

Loversofjesus_2018 said:
On one hand we all claim to know the truth completely but then use words like “it’s more plausible” or “in my opinion”. That tells me we don’t really know if I’m being completely honest.

We go by levels and degrees of confidence. Yes, some assert, without doubt. Those are the ones we 'might' want to question more-so -- Especially when making positive assertions about God in an apologetics forum

coffee4u · Nov 11, 2020

Tree of Life said:
Suppose that a personal God exists. Suppose that this God does communicate with humanity. I think it's safe to assume that if God exists then we should expect that he would communicate with us, but that's an argument for another thread. Let's just suppose that here. The question now would be "where has God spoken?" How can we access God's words or communication with God? How would we know God's words when we encounter them?

What would you propose are critera for determining whether something is a word from God?

I'll just give one idea as an example. I would propose that a word from God would claim to be a word from God.

God gives his word to us in scripture.
With that as the base, you can judge other words, written or spoken.
I had a reply on a post some days back about testing the spirits so I will copy and paste my reply here.

One is that the spirit or person (since spirits most times work through people) confesses that Jesus Christ came in the flesh.
1 John 4
4 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God.

Just adding this in here as to what confessing Christ means
“Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven.” Matthew 10:32 (NIV)
The word ‘acknowledge’ (or confess) in the Greek is homo = ‘one’ plus logeo = ‘word.’ It literally means “to be of one word.” To confess Jesus is to be of one word with Him, to say what He says.
Jesus says, “I am the way and the truth and the life” (John 14:6). To be of one word with Him is to say, “For me, Jesus is my way and my truth and my life.” You believe it. You own it. You do not say, “This is what Jesus says, but I have a different view.” Or “I am not so sure about that.” You say, “I will follow Him as my Lord. I will listen to Him as my Teacher. I will trust in Him as my Savior.”
What Does It Mean to Confess Christ? | Unlocking the Bible

Two is that they look to God for answers not to any practice that God condems.
Isaiah 8:19
And when they say to you, “Inquire of the mediums and the necromancers who chirp and mutter,” should not a people inquire of their God? Should they inquire of the dead on behalf of the living?

False teachers/evil spirits will not confess Christ, they will use methods God has condemned and will also perform 'miracles.'
Matthew 24:24
For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.

They will look the part but will teach falshood.
2 Corinthians 11:13-15
For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

We will know false teaching by scripture and the Holy Spirit
2 Timothy 3:16-17
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.

John 14:26
But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

cvanwey · Nov 11, 2020

coffee4u said:
God gives his word to us in scripture.
With that as the base, you can judge other words, written or spoken.
I had a reply on a post some days back about testing the spirits so I will copy and paste my reply here.

One is that the spirit or person (since spirits most times work through people) confesses that Jesus Christ came in the flesh.
1 John 4
4 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God.

Just adding this in here as to what confessing Christ means.

What Does It Mean to Confess Christ? | Unlocking the Bible

Two is that they look to God for answers not to any practice that God condems.
Isaiah 8:19
And when they say to you, “Inquire of the mediums and the necromancers who chirp and mutter,” should not a people inquire of their God? Should they inquire of the dead on behalf of the living?

False teachers/evil spirits will not confess Christ, they will use methods God has condemned and will also perform 'miracles.'
Matthew 24:24
For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.

They will look the part but will teach falshood.
2 Corinthians 11:13-15
For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

We will know false teaching by scripture and the Holy Spirit
2 Timothy 3:16-17
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.

John 14:26
But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

Your argument is circular. Let's just assume....

- False teachers exist
- False teachers can perform miracles
- False teachers have free will

Based upon the three assumptions above, and what you have re-enforced above, maybe Lucifer came down in human form to mimic the Messiah. How would we know?

coffee4u · Nov 11, 2020

cvanwey said:
Your argument is circular. Let's just assume....

- False teachers exist
- False teachers can perform miracles
- False teachers have free will

Based upon the three assumptions above, and what you have re-enforced above, maybe Lucifer came down in human form to mimic the Messiah. How would we know?

The argument first assumes that the person testing the spirits is a born again believer who has the Holy Spirit. Without that there is no guidance from the Holy Spirit.
To a true believer, this is how the spirits/false teachers are tested and spotted.

Those who have given their life to Christ know by the points I just gave. The teaching will in some way contradict scripture, often adding too or taking away from it. They will not completely confess Christ but twist things.
False prophets will preach what people outside of Christ want to hear because it will align with their own fallen state and pander to their sin.
2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

Satan in the garden of Eden is a good example of a lieing spirit.
3 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”
He opend up with a small lie and a question.

cvanwey · Nov 12, 2020

coffee4u said:
The argument first assumes that the person testing the spirits is a born again believer who has the Holy Spirit. Without that there is no guidance from the Holy Spirit.
To a true believer, this is how the spirits/false teachers are tested and spotted.

How exactly might a believer know they possess the "Holy Spirit"? Isn't it possible such a believer thinks they do, but really does not? Or maybe still, there does not exist any such thing as a "Holy Spirit"?

coffee4u said:
Those who have given their life to Christ know by the points I just gave. The teaching will in some way contradict scripture, often adding too or taking away from it. They will not completely confess Christ but twist things.
False prophets will preach what people outside of Christ want to hear because it will align with their own fallen state and pander to their sin.
2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

Satan in the garden of Eden is a good example of a lieing spirit.
3 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”
He opend up with a small lie and a question.

This does not address my original inquiry

- False teachers exist
- False teachers can also perform magic
- False teachers have free will

Is it even possible the Orthodox Jews have it right? Jesus is not the Messiah? Or maybe the OT is also wrong? If a false teacher has free will, could they not say anything to entice wanna-be followers? Could they not perfectly mimic what they know would-be believers might would want to hear? Could they not also perform magic tricks to further seal the deal? Is it possible?

coffee4u · Nov 12, 2020

cvanwey said:
How exactly might a believer know they possess the "Holy Spirit"? Isn't it possible such a believer thinks they do, but really does not? Or maybe still, there does not exist any such thing as a "Holy Spirit"?

Are you reading through all of what I put?
I did a small edit to show exactly what confessing Christ means because a lot of people think they are Christians simply because they believe in God or because their family is X denomination, but that is as far as the thought goes. 'Cultural Christianity' is not confessing Christ.

If they confess Christ they have the Holy Spirit.
They know because God's word says so.
Ephesians 1:13-14

13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit
We have the spirit because the Word tells us that we do. So it comes back to faith.
Which then goes back to understanding what the full meaning of confessing Christ means. If this person does not have the Holy Spirit then they are not confessing Christ.

Copy paste from my other post.
“Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven.” Matthew 10:32 (NIV)
The word ‘acknowledge’ (or confess) in the Greek is homo = ‘one’ plus logeo = ‘word.’ It literally means “to be of one word.” To confess Jesus is to be of one word with Him, to say what He says.
Jesus says, “I am the way and the truth and the life” (John 14:6). To be of one word with Him is to say, “For me, Jesus is my way and my truth and my life.” You believe it. You own it. You do not say, “This is what Jesus says, but I have a different view.” Or “I am not so sure about that.” You say, “I will follow Him as my Lord. I will listen to Him as my Teacher. I will trust in Him as my Savior.”
Jesus is the Word. If we read his words and say we have a different view from what is written, then we are not confessing Christ.

This does not address my original inquiry

- False teachers exist
- False teachers can also perform magic
- False teachers have free will

Yes to all of those.

Then I am not understanding your original inquiry as I felt I covered all of it. If a Christian knows and follows and treasures God's word he or she won't be steered wrong by false teachers because they will know by the scriptures and by the Holy Spirit.
I am simply talking about the quiet leading and discernment that the Holy Spirit gives. Even a new Christian should feel in their spirit if something is not of God, even if they don't yet understand why. They should take that as a hint to go look up the scriptures about it and ask a Christian mentor.

Is it even possible the Orthodox Jews have it right? Jesus is not the Messiah? Or maybe the OT is also wrong? If a false teacher has free will, could they not say anything to entice wanna-be followers? Could they not perfectly mimic what they know would-be believers might would want to hear?

Jesus said
John 5:46
If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me.
Jesus says we need to belive Mosses, so if we are confessing Christ we will. That means believing in both the Old and New Testament.

A false teacher will say "what their itching ears want to hear." It will be agreeable to the people who are deceived by it. They either won't check scripture or will disagree with it and so be easily led by something persuasive. It will appeal to their emotions, greed, or knowledge.
When we trust the Word we believe it even when we don't like the message, even when it would be easier to go along with the mainstream. The Word becomes the ultimate source of truth.

Could they not also perform magic tricks to further seal the deal? Is it possible?

Yes very possible- if people do not have their eyes on God if they have backslid and let life 'choke the word out".
Mark 4:19
but the worries of this life, the deceitfulness of wealth and the desires for other things come in and choke the word, making it unfruitful.Matthew 24:24

For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
Just because someone gets deceived once does not mean they always will. Peter was a disciple and still he sank beneath the water when he tried to walk on water to Jesus. In that moment it was the 'worries of life' that made him sink. No one is perfect, we are all a work in progress.

cvanwey · Nov 12, 2020

coffee4u said:
Are you reading through all of what I put?

Yes

coffee4u said:
If they confess Christ they have the Holy Spirit.

Millions confess or repent to Christ. How do they know they have actually received the Holy Spirit?

coffee4u said:
They know because God's word says so.

This reason could not demonstrate to be more circular.

coffee4u said:
Yes to all of those.

coffee4u said:
Then I am not understanding your original inquiry as I felt I covered all of it. If a Christian knows and follows and treasures God's word he or she won't be steered wrong by false teachers because they will know by the scriptures and by the Holy Spirit.
I am simply talking about the quiet leading and discernment that the Holy Spirit gives. Even a new Christian should feel in their spirit if something is not of God, even if they don't yet understand why. They should take that as a hint to go look up the scriptures about it and ask a Christian mentor.

coffee4u said:
Jesus said
John 5:46
If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me.
Jesus says we need to belive Mosses, so if we are confessing Christ we will. That means believing in both the Old and New Testament.

A false teacher will say "what their itching ears want to hear." It will be agreeable to the people who are deceived by it. They either won't check scripture or will disagree with it and so be easily led by something persuasive. It will appeal to their emotions, greed, or knowledge.
When we trust the Word we believe it even when we don't like the message, even when it would be easier to go along with the mainstream. The Word becomes the ultimate source of truth.

Yes very possible- if people do not have their eyes on God if they have backslid and let life 'choke the word out".
Mark 4:19
but the worries of this life, the deceitfulness of wealth and the desires for other things come in and choke the word, making it unfruitful.Matthew 24:24

For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
Just because someone gets deceived once does not mean they always will. Peter was a disciple and still he sank beneath the water when he tried to walk on water to Jesus. In that moment it was the 'worries of life' that made him sink. No one is perfect, we are all a work in progress.

Like I stated prior.... Maybe Lucifer presented as a Messiah, but no actual Messiah has ever come. How could you tell the difference? You can't, if you also reconcile the three points I issued, for which you already agreed. If Lucifer has free will, He can mimic any/all words he knows anyone may want or wish to hear, at any time. Thus far, you have demonstrated circular reasoning, and nothing more....

Maybe there exists no such thing as a 'Holy Spirit', and your 'goose bumps', your 'warm sensation', 'intuition', your 'special feelings', or other, is nothing more or less than when you watch an emotional movie and feel similar emotion.

And maybe your 'moral compass' for 'right' and 'wrong' is nothing more than your own subjective opinion.

Loversofjesus_2018 · Nov 12, 2020

coffee4u said:
Are you reading through all of what I put?
I did a small edit to show exactly what confessing Christ means because a lot of people think they are Christians simply because they believe in God or because their family is X denomination, but that is as far as the thought goes. 'Cultural Christianity' is not confessing Christ.

If they confess Christ they have the Holy Spirit.
They know because God's word says so.
Ephesians 1:13-14

13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit
We have the spirit because the Word tells us that we do. So it comes back to faith.
Which then goes back to understanding what the full meaning of confessing Christ means. If this person does not have the Holy Spirit then they are not confessing Christ.

Copy paste from my other post.
“Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven.” Matthew 10:32 (NIV)
The word ‘acknowledge’ (or confess) in the Greek is homo = ‘one’ plus logeo = ‘word.’ It literally means “to be of one word.” To confess Jesus is to be of one word with Him, to say what He says.
Jesus says, “I am the way and the truth and the life” (John 14:6). To be of one word with Him is to say, “For me, Jesus is my way and my truth and my life.” You believe it. You own it. You do not say, “This is what Jesus says, but I have a different view.” Or “I am not so sure about that.” You say, “I will follow Him as my Lord. I will listen to Him as my Teacher. I will trust in Him as my Savior.”
Jesus is the Word. If we read his words and say we have a different view from what is written, then we are not confessing Christ.

Yes to all of those.

Then I am not understanding your original inquiry as I felt I covered all of it. If a Christian knows and follows and treasures God's word he or she won't be steered wrong by false teachers because they will know by the scriptures and by the Holy Spirit.
I am simply talking about the quiet leading and discernment that the Holy Spirit gives. Even a new Christian should feel in their spirit if something is not of God, even if they don't yet understand why. They should take that as a hint to go look up the scriptures about it and ask a Christian mentor.

Jesus said
John 5:46
If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me.
Jesus says we need to belive Mosses, so if we are confessing Christ we will. That means believing in both the Old and New Testament.

A false teacher will say "what their itching ears want to hear." It will be agreeable to the people who are deceived by it. They either won't check scripture or will disagree with it and so be easily led by something persuasive. It will appeal to their emotions, greed, or knowledge.
When we trust the Word we believe it even when we don't like the message, even when it would be easier to go along with the mainstream. The Word becomes the ultimate source of truth.

Yes very possible- if people do not have their eyes on God if they have backslid and let life 'choke the word out".
Mark 4:19
but the worries of this life, the deceitfulness of wealth and the desires for other things come in and choke the word, making it unfruitful.Matthew 24:24

For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
Just because someone gets deceived once does not mean they always will. Peter was a disciple and still he sank beneath the water when he tried to walk on water to Jesus. In that moment it was the 'worries of life' that made him sink. No one is perfect, we are all a work in progress.

I’ve got a question. If you have the Holy Spirit and another has the Holy Spirit is it possible for you both to come to different conclusions about the interpretation of specific scripture or should you both get the same interpretation since it’s the same Holy Spirit?

coffee4u · Nov 12, 2020

Loversofjesus_2018 said:
I’ve got a question. If you have the Holy Spirit and another has the Holy Spirit is it possible for you both to come to different conclusions about the interpretation of specific scripture or should you both get the same interpretation since it’s the same Holy Spirit?

Scripture contains a variety of literature types. Some passages are straightforward laws and commands, some are poetry and song, some is prophecy of the future, some is historical narrative, some is parables. So it's important to know what type of literature you are reading. Interpretation of certain parts of scripture is certainly a thing, while other parts are easy enough for a 5 year old to understand. "Do not steal" pretty straightforward. Revelation 13 talking about the beast "The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority." anything but straightforward. People like to toss the word interpretation around as if all the Bible were like Revelations, it's not.

Secondly, is the person reading the scripture confessing Christ? Is their view coming from scripture itself or is it being coloured by things outside of scripture. If they have been listening to and being taken in by false teaching they may be interpreting scripture through a muddy lense. I think it takes some humility to say my upbringing or my culture or my education is clouding what the scriptures are saying and to be able to purposely put that aside and read what it is truly saying. This is why God says we need to come to it like children, not to be childish but rather come to it with our baggage and preconceived notions put aside.

Thirdly we need to be willing to learn. To look at all the scriptures pertaining to the subject, not to just pull one out while disregarding another that sheds more light on the topic. Sometimes the Hebrew and Greek is needed. The Bible was not originally written in English and some words do not translate well. Take the word love for an example. In English we just say love but the Bible has eros, agape, and philos each with their own shade of meaning.

Lastly like Peter walking on the water and sinking, we are not perfect. We still may take our eyes off God and go our own way. We can disregard the prompting of the Holy Spirit because our mind or flesh have taken over. I do believe people who are genuinely confessing Christ will have very similar outlooks on most passages of scripture, but we are body, soul and spirit and all three affect us and what we do and say and believe. Just because the spirit is willing the body or soul/mind may not be.
Matthew 26:41
"Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak."

coffee4u · Nov 12, 2020

cvanwey said:
Yes

Millions confess or repent to Christ. How do they know they have actually received the Holy Spirit?

Have they though? perhapes the started to and fell away. I assume you know the parable of the sewer and that parables teach spiritual truths.
“A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4 As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5 Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6 But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. 8 Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. 9 Whoever has ears, let them hear.”

18 “Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 22 The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful. 23 But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”

This reason could not demonstrate to be more circular.

I never said it wasn't. It is, but it's still the truth.
Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.God rewards those who diligently seek him but first we must believe that he is.

Like I stated prior.... Maybe Lucifer presented as a Messiah, but no actual Messiah has ever come. How could you tell the difference? You can't, if you also reconcile the three points I issued, for which you already agreed. If Lucifer has free will, He can mimic any/all words he knows anyone may want or wish to hear, at any time. Thus far, you have demonstrated circular reasoning, and nothing more....

A person who is truly confessing Christ will know.

Maybe there exists no such thing as a 'Holy Spirit', and your 'goose bumps', your 'warm sensation', 'intuition', your 'special feelings', or other, is nothing more or less than when you watch an emotional movie and feel similar emotion.
And maybe your 'moral compass' for 'right' and 'wrong' is nothing more than your own subjective opinion.

I never mentioned Goosebumps. We all know that you have firmly decided not to believe. I took note of that last time I spoke to you a few months back. But I still gave you my sincere answer because I know it may help someone else.

I wish you the best but I am not here to expend my time and energy bickering back and forth. I answered the OP and you to the best of my ability.

So unless you actually have a genuine question I shall now Matthew 10:14.

cvanwey · Nov 12, 2020

coffee4u said:
Have they though? perhapes the started to and fell away. I assume you know the parable of the sewer and that parables teach spiritual truths.
“A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4 As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5 Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6 But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. 8 Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. 9 Whoever has ears, let them hear.”

18 “Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 22 The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful. 23 But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”

I never said it wasn't. It is, but it's still the truth.
Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.God rewards those who diligently seek him but first we must believe that he is.

A person who is truly confessing Christ will know.

I never mentioned Goosebumps. We all know that you have firmly decided not to believe. I took note of that last time I spoke to you a few months back. But I still gave you my sincere answer because I know it may help someone else.

I wish you the best but I am not here to expend my time and energy bickering back and forth. I answered the OP and you to the best of my ability.

So unless you actually have a genuine question I shall now Matthew 10:14.

- I'm not here to waste my time.
- I'm here to challenge the Christian faith, just as this specific forum arena is intended. What are you here for?
- You also cannot control what you believe.
- My questions are serious observations. If you cannot or will not answer them, then that's your prerogative I guess...

Your 'justification' is just as circular as the Muslims. They sometimes will quote Surah 4:82.

If an agent has the power to imitate others, can also perform tasks that no human can perform, and is motivated to deceive, then you would have no way of knowing the difference. Maybe this is all a ruse.

Furthermore, if the Holy Spirit does exist, I would reckon He has filled many, and not just you. And as @Loversofjesus_2018 has elegantly pointed out, many whom have the 'Holy Spirit' do not interpret God's Word the same as you. Thus, you have to ask yourself...

If you KNOW you have been contacted by the Spirit, then does this mean that anyone whom does not agree with your interpretation of God's Word has NOT been contacted by the Holy Ghost? Just wondering, really...

coffee4u · Nov 13, 2020

cvanwey said:
- I'm not here to waste my time.
- I'm here to challenge the Christian faith, just as this specific forum arena is intended. What are you here for?

I am here to provide the best answers that I can. What you do with it is up to to you.

You also cannot control what you believe.
I don't completely agree with that. We can be open to ideas or closed off. We believe all kind of things and some of those things come with experinces and can change given different experiences and the right frame of mind such as trust in others and ourselves. A kid doing algebra can tell themselves they will never get it and close down and become a self fulfilling prophecy.
Even if you only mean belief in God, people have struggled with doubt and overcome and become stronger for it. It's more about not quitting and getting through the dessert. But like the parable said some fall away when hard times come.

- My questions are serious observations. If you cannot or will not answer them, then that's your prerogative I guess...

Are they though? Some appear to be you needling for a response. That is why I said I am here to answer genuine questions. If I have answered a question your repeating of it isn't going to get a different answer.

Your 'justification' is just as circular as the Muslims. They sometimes will quote Surah 4:82.
I am not arguing the fact that it's circular, I already agreed that it is. I can't help that, but it is still the truth.
Why do you think I posted that verse from Hebrews?
Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. God rewards those who diligently seek him but first we must believe that he is.

If an agent has the power to imitate others, can also perform tasks that no human can perform, and is motivated to deceive, then you would have no way of knowing the difference. Maybe this is all a ruse.

I would know the difference.

Furthermore, if the Holy Spirit does exist, I would reckon He has filled many, and not just you. And as @Loversofjesus_2018 has elegantly pointed out, many whom have the 'Holy Spirit' do not interpret God's Word the same as you. Thus, you have to ask yourself...

Where did I say others did not have the Holy Spirit? I will say again, those who confess Christ will have the Holy Spirit and they will have a very similar take on most passages of scripture. As I also said, we are not perfect, we are all a work in progress and like Peter we can sink. Our mind and flesh, our upbringing and culture can derail us. I already detailed all of that. But as a general rule, our take on scripture will be similar.

I don't know Loversofjesus_2018 to know what their take on particular passages of scripture is. Apart from this page, I don't recall if I have replied to them before.

If you KNOW you have been contacted by the Spirit, then does this mean that anyone whom does not agree with your interpretation of God's Word has NOT been contacted by the Holy Ghost? Just wondering, really...

There are certain principles every born again believer would agree on. In my post to Loversofjesus_2018 I answered their question about interpretation, you might want to go and read that. Some people have studied the scriptures for years and others are brand new, we don't all know everything overnight. There is also gifting in different areas so one person may have a ministry in teaching in a particular area of scripture. This is why there are teachers and preachers.
If by interpretation it is really a twisting of scripture or a denial of scripture such as saying Jesus was not God in the flesh then no that person does not have the Holy Spirit.
If it is a division over a small matter such as if a man should have long hair or not then I would say those are squabbling matters.

13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in the way of a brother or sister.
There is a difference between heresy and taking a different view over minor matters.

Criteria for God's Word

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Hide The Pain

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads