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BillD16
(Texas)

Posts:773

04/17/2024 11:41 AM
Once upon a time I was the President of a 5-member HOA Board, and I presided over an Open Meeting. Afterwards, one of the attendees (not on the Board)(call him “G”) gave me a bunch of grief because I made several motions{1} during the course of the meeting, and according to him, Robert's Rules says it is A Very Bad Thing for the President to make a motion. I responded “Thank you for your input. I’ll look into it.” And I actually did look into it, and a) I couldn’t find anything that required that we follow Robert’s Rules of Order. b) I couldn’t find anything that required us to use any form of parliamentary procedure at all. b) I ran across something called Robert’s Rules of Order for Small Assemblies{2}, which appears to allow Presidents to make motions (and other things to streamline meetings outside of the Palace of Westminster). I’ll readily admit to my own rather shabby use of Robert’s Rules, which might make some people cringe the way I cringe when an actor in a Police Procedural looks at a crime photo on a computer and says “enhance!”{3}. I simply wanted to move through the agenda. I’m inclined to think that “G” brought home a trophy from his 8th grade Model United Nations and never passes up an opportunity to re-live that triumph. For what little it’s worth no-one else on the Board seems to know jack about about Robert’s Rules, either. I really don’t have a specific question; mostly I’m curious about anything y’all might have to say about Robert’s Rules of Order in the HOA meeting environment: Love it? Hate it? Am I missing out on some subtle but awesome aspect? Tales of derring-do where someone used RRoO to rock the house? This "Small Assemblies" version seems like it would be a Big Deal, but from my reading I get the idea it isn't well-known. Or am I incorrectly equating "Board President" with "Board Chairman"? Thank you. Bill {1} ala “… thank you for that presentation! And now I’ll move that we proceed to the next item on the agenda …” {2} 49:21 in Robert’s Rules of Order, Newly Revised 12th edition. “Small” means “12 people or less”. Please see {4} below. {3} Harrison Ford in Bladerunner can do this, but no-one else. {4} 49:21 Procedure in Small Boards. In a board meeting where there are not more than about a dozen members present, some of the formality that is necessary in a large assembly would hinder business. The rules governing such meetings are different from the rules that hold in other assemblies, in the following respects: 1) Members may raise a hand instead of standing when seeking to obtain the floor, and may remain seated while making motions or speaking. 2) Motions need not be seconded. 3) There is no limit to the number of times a member can speak to a debatable question.3 Appeals, however, are debatable under the regular rules—that is, each member (except the chair) can speak only once in debate on them, while the chair may speak twice. 4) Informal discussion of a subject is permitted while no motion is pending. 5) When a proposal is perfectly clear to all present, a vote can be taken without a motion’s having been introduced. Unless agreed to by unanimous consent, however, all proposed actions must be approved by vote under the same rules as in larger meetings, except that a vote can be taken initially by a show of hands, which is often a better method in small meetings. 6) The chairman need not rise while putting questions to a vote. 7) If the chairman is a member, he may, without leaving the chair, speak in informal discussions and in debate, and vote on all questions.* * Informal discussion may be initiated by the chairman himself, which, in effect, enables the chairman to submit his own proposals without formally making a motion as described in 4:4–8 (although he has the right to make a motion if he wishes).

HOA Board ex-President Austin, Texas USA “You can’t put too much water in a nuclear reactor”

KerryL1
(California)

Posts:13269

04/17/2024 12:47 PM
In some, maybe most or all US states, Robert's Rules of Order (RONR) is required for meetings of the HOA association members, i.e., owners. Some states, CT is one, RONR is required for HOA board meetings. In a different post, you'll see that Wendy pointed at the a meeting of the members (owners), an owner may motion that the presider be OwnerX vs. the board plz, who'd open the meeting. I supported Wendy's remark. And that action is from RONR. At an "ordinary" meeting of the members, say an election, I've only seen RONR followed in that Owners make all the motions, 2nds, and call for a vote. In this case Owners are the "assembly." The Board of my HOA has informally agreed to refer to it for Board meetings when our Bylaws & state statute are silent. And over 16 years, the Board has a handful of times. And for good purpose. AT present, however, no director nor our PM in my HOA would know how to use RONR. In your HOA, BillD, see your Bylaws for the titles used for the president. If silent, see TX Corps.Code. RONR repeatedly makes it clear that an association's bylaws (and state code) always take precedence over RONR. Thus, I. believe in Texas, no item of business may be discussed at a Board meeting or a meeting of the members unless it's on the agenda, which has been posted x days before the meeting. Put another way, the president may not simply add something of interest to themself.

SheliaH
(Indiana)

Posts:6271

04/17/2024 12:51 PM
Robert’s rules is very popular, but it’s not the only thing people can or should use when it comes to meetings. There’s Riddick’s Rules of Procedure and Demeter’s Manual of Parliamentary Law and procedure, and something called Martha’s Rules of Procedure. I haven’t looked up the others (you can do that), but an article on Martha’s rules showed up in a Google search and it actually sounds rather workable that going back and forth over what’s in Robert’s Rules. chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1825&context=sociologyfacpub#:~:text=Martha's%20Rules%20involves%20a%20five,to%20what%20others%20are%20saying. I find that people often get hung up on nuances of Roberts Rules, and although there are books that do a good job in explaining the major points, the bottom line for me is to run meetings in some sort of order so you aren’t there all day or night, get through everything on the agenda and don’t wind up with a free for all, with fists, chairs and/or bullets flying all over the place. Board meetings are business meetings and the people attending and running the show are supposed to be grown-ups and act accordingly. It’s not complicated – establish an agenda, make copies available so attendees can follow along, and provide some basic rules: • Show up on time and prepare to discuss the issues. That means reading the management report and whatever else you were given before the meeting. In my community we received the management report three days in advance. • If you were put in charge of following up on something, be prepared to stand up and provide your update. If it didn’t get done and you’re still working on it, apologize, explain the delay and when you’ll have it done. We understand there are emergencies and life happens, but simply saying “I forgot” is an excuse. • Raise your hand to speak instead of jumping in • Be clear and don’t get personal. Act like an adult when you make your case for whatever, and then sit down and shut up so others can have a turn • Listen to what’s being said and take notes if you like so you’ll understand the issues. If you need clarification on something, raise your hand and ask (after the person finishes speaking) • If you get outvoted, don’t pout or undermine the board. Do what you can to make the decision work – time will reveal if you were right. If you’re really bugged, you could prepare a one page summary explaining your concerns and ask that it be attached to the minutes. In your case, I thought you said you were voted out as president, so if this is a recent conversation, why the hell did this person bring it up now? I would leave the comment where it is – the guy could always volunteer to serve as parliamentarian (some HOA boards have them so he or she can review any questions on motions, votes or whatever comes up during the meeting). If the board and everyone else wants to use Robert's Rules and needs some education on what it entails, why not check out the national association of parliamentarians website and see if there's someone in your area you could hire to do a presentation? That person could also sit in on a few meetings and talk to the board later about her/her observations and suggestions on how to make the meetings run more efficiently If you did make a motion during the meeting, it was still up to your colleagues to second it and then vote for or against it, or you could have withdrawn the motion. In any event, I don’t see anyone having you arrested over it.

You can't say you do, but then show you don't/You can't say you will and make sure you won't/You can't want for change and not do what you need to do - Stevie Wonder, "If Your Love Cannot Be Moved"

ElleN
(Idaho)

Posts:4145

04/17/2024 12:55 PM
The good news: Folks here should download this free, searchable online version of the 12th edition (1000+ pages in PDF) of RONR while they can: https://yorkcountyfireschool.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/Roberts-Rules-of-Order-Newly-Revised-12th-Edt.pdf The bad news: Robert's rules is not written with shareholder type organizations such as HOAs in mind. Shareholder organizations are an asterisked type situation in Robert's Rules. The result is that maybe 10 pages (if that much) of text in RONR are appropriate and useful for HOA boards and owners (where statutes/bylaws require use of RONR). Finding these 20 non-sequential pages is the trick. Not confusing this 10 or so pages of relevant text with all the 99% irrelevant gibberish about "the assembly" is another trick. Every time some HOA member quotes RONR, I can almost guarantee that the section quoted pertains to a non-stockholder assembly, where the members control // everything //, and if there is a board, the bylaws say the board is subordinate 100% in all decisions to the assembly (meaning all members of the "society" [Jesus]). Homeowner associations are stockholder type organizations. Case in point from RONR: 10:11 ... if the membership of an organization wishes to make certain that a subordinate body, such as its executive board, will not take such action at a later date, or if the motion expresses an opinion or reason as to why no action should be taken. A serious reader would be scratching his/her head after reading this. "Executive board? Subordinate body? Huh?" This section 10:11 is not saying what a layreader thinks it is saying. Instead, a correct translation of 10:11 in HOA Land is this: Per other sections of RONR, section 10:11 does not apply to HOAs Posted By BillD16 on 04/17/2024 11:41 AM a) I couldn’t find anything that required that we follow Robert’s Rules of Order. b) I couldn’t find anything that required us to use any form of parliamentary procedure at all. Correct, your fellow HOA member is clueless. First, because no, RONR is not required by statute or your bylaws. Second because even if it was, maybe only 20 pages of text is useful. Third, because the dude showed his cluelessness by suggesting RONR is a big deal, and never mind bylaws and statutes. One can go to the RONR staff-run forum https://robertsrules.forumflash.com/ and time and again, its clique of members will say that, while they will give the RONR answer, if the question concerns a HOA, it's almost always better to read the bylaws and statutes and seek answers to questions there. The boys there love to ramble on RONR, and the latter point (read the bylaws and statutes, dudes and dudettes) gets lost in the egos of the forumflash members, in my opinion. Said owner fails to realize that RONR rarely mandates anything. Where a statute or bylaws require RONR's use, the wording in RONR itself is typically not to mandate anything. Hence the statute and bylaws requirement tends toward toothlessness. If you ask a direct question about whether RONR says the chair can make a motion, then RONR has an answer. And it is not easy to find, even with the searchable PDF version.

ElleN
(Idaho)

Posts:4145

04/17/2024 1:13 PM
Posted By KerryL1 on 04/17/2024 12:47 PM In a different post, you'll see that Wendy pointed at the a meeting of the members (owners), an owner may motion that the presider be OwnerX vs. the board plz, who'd open the meeting. I supported Wendy's remark. And that action is from RONR. I am not trying to give you in particular a hard time. Below, I am "just saying." I would bet money that the section of RONR that speaks to the above applies only to organizations where the membership en masse calls all the shots. Meaning organizations where the board is almost toothless. Meaning this section does not apply to HOAs in any way shape or form. In RONR, the HOA setup is an enormous anomaly. I challenge anyone to find a useful definition of "the assembly" in RONR in less than five minutes. It is there, but it is like digging through and compiling extremely poorly written case law. My recollection is that many Bylaws flatly say that the President presides at meetings. However I believe the President has the right, as the presiding officer, to let someone else pretty much run the meeting, while the President sits aside and sort of supervises.

KerryL1
(California)

Posts:13269

04/17/2024 1:42 PM
Nope-won't be looking things up in RONR. Our Board did at one time have a president who was very knowledgeable about RONR from his professional life. He claimed that our Board during Board meetings was "the assembly." And that the owners at meetings of the members were the "assembly." I have never seen any evidence that HOA Board are not "assemblies." At one time Jim Slaughter, a well-known parliamentarian, participated on this forum occasionally. Why would he if HOA boards were not "assemblies?" A former very helpful poster, Bruce of CT, sometime made reference to RONR. He knew a lot about it since CT requires it for HOA Board meetings. My experience after 14 years of full-time active board service is that it's hardly ever needed except for a couple of reasons that do occasionally, I'd say rarely, occur. I don't think any posters here should use their time trying to grapple with RONR since it's so very rarely needed. Time is much, MUCH better spent on one's own bylaws and state HOA codes (if any) and state corporations codes. At meetings of the members, members have every right to move that a owner/member preside and to vote on that.

ElleN
(Idaho)

Posts:4145

04/17/2024 2:01 PM
Posted By KerryL1 on 04/17/2024 1:42 PM Nope-won't be looking things up in RONR. Our Board did at one time have a president who was very knowledgeable about RONR from his professional life. He claimed that our Board during Board meetings was "the assembly." And that the owners at meetings of the members were the "assembly." Again, just saying. Your president was forcing RONR to fit his scenario. I understand why he was doing this, but the //fact// is that this is not what RONR says. In RONR and for a HOA, "the assembly" is never, ever the board. The term "assembly" is really not applicable. Why? Because HOAs resemble stock corporations far more than they resemble the type of organization that RONR principally addresses. Sections of RONR speak to this. The interested reader can keyword the pdf version for "stock" and get the gist of what I am saying. Or one can read 1:23 in RONR and exclaim, "Holy mackerel. When it comes to RONR, my HOA is a stock organization. And RONR speaks very, very little to the decision-making of stock organizations, and it does so in a way that is practically speaking, useless." I do not know Jim Slaughter or Bruce. I can say that what your HOA's former President, Slaughter and Bruce were doing is trying to take some lessons from RONR and make them work for HOAs. This is fine, but the fact is that doing so is making up a set of rules that work and have // some basis // in RONR, without actually being RONR. One reason why I do not think this is trivial is because at times, the courts have enforced rules from RONR, but I think never in a case involving a HOA/COA. Why? Mostly because HOAs/COAs are creatures of statute (which in turn yields bylaws) and covenants (contracts, in layperson's language).

ElleN
(Idaho)

Posts:4145

04/17/2024 2:01 PM
Posted By KerryL1 on 04/17/2024 1:42 PM At meetings of the members, members have every right to move that a owner/member preside and to vote on that. Depends on the Bylaws.

ElleN
(Idaho)

Posts:4145

04/17/2024 2:10 PM
Posted By KerryL1 on 04/17/2024 1:42 PM At one time Jim Slaughter, a well-known parliamentarian, participated on this forum occasionally. Why would he if HOA boards were not "assemblies?" One can google and see Slaughter's posts. It appears to me that he posted here to promote his own product, in violation of today's posting rules. For example, see the posts by "JimS30" at: https://www.hoatalk.com/Search/ForumSearch/tabid/87/forumid/1/postid/156511/

BillD16
(Texas)

Posts:773

04/17/2024 4:39 PM
First: Wow! Thank you all! I have to run to make dinner but I'm going to enjoy reading this in detail and looking stuff up later tonight! SheliaH wrote: > ... get through everything on the agenda and don’t wind up with a free for all, with fists, chairs > and/or bullets flying all over the place. Yet it's apparently not an infrequent thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_incidents_of_grave_disorder_in_the_British_House_of_Commons > In your case, I thought you said you were voted out as president, so if this is a recent > conversation, why the hell did this person bring it up now? Some of y'all have tremendous memories! Yes, this incident happened last October. I didn't get voted out, although they tried. I ended up resigning in December. But the comment stuck with me, and I finally got around to looking into it - ElleN's pointer to https://yorkcountyfireschool.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/Roberts-Rules-of-Order-Newly-Revised-12th-Edt.pdf is spot-on, BTW - and it was one of those things that is interesting and educational and also raised a number of other questions. I almost hate to admit it but I am very much the kind of person who could get hooked on RNOR and drive everyone freaking crazy. I can see how agreeing to a format like RNOR (or any of the countless variations, or Riddick's Rules, etc) could be a good thing. But I think I've mentioned that I spent 30+ years in the tech industry in a soulless corporate monolith that has been referenced in at least one outstanding Stanley Kubrick movie, and somewhere during that time I learned how to run a really tight meeting. But no-one ever suggested using Parliamentary Procedure. It's kind of fun to imagine it. Again, I thank all of you for sharing your wisdom. No, I won't be bringing the matter up again with G - unless he insists on bringing it up again. Bill

HOA Board ex-President Austin, Texas USA “You can’t put too much water in a nuclear reactor”

BillD16
(Texas)

Posts:773

04/17/2024 4:41 PM
RONR, argh! Learning takes time.

HOA Board ex-President Austin, Texas USA “You can’t put too much water in a nuclear reactor”

ElleN
(Idaho)

Posts:4145

04/17/2024 4:52 PM
Posted By BillD16 on 04/17/2024 4:39 PM I almost hate to admit it but I am very much the kind of person who could get hooked on RNOR and drive everyone freaking crazy. Are you not hooked on TPC 209, BO 22 and your own covenants and bylaws? My view (in case I did not sneer enough in my earlier posts): Anyone in HOA Land hooked on RONR would not be driving people crazy. They would be spouting nonsense (meaning nothing with any teeth whatsover) 99.9% of the time. Which of course actually happens at many HOAs where there is someone who thinks RONR is more fun to read than the actual governing documents and (oh so few) applicable statutes.

KerryL1
(California)

Posts:13269

04/17/2024 6:06 PM
Just as I wrote above: Elle: "My experience after 14 years of full-time active board service is that it's hardly ever needed except for a couple of reasons that do occasionally, I'd say rarely, occur. I don't think any posters here should use their time trying to grapple with RONR since it's so very rarely needed. Time is much, MUCH better spent on one's own bylaws and state HOA codes (if any) and state corporations codes." Don't let a temp adrenalin hit send anyone down the RONR rabbithole. I do think imputing motives to our former and BEST HOA president over 18 years as trying to "force" RONR to "fit his scenario," whatever the heck that means is presumptuous, Elle. It is also incredibly incorrect. Well, .off to our HOA's April in Paris Soiree. More on this and other topics tomorrow.

BillD16
(Texas)

Posts:773

04/18/2024 12:07 PM
Posted By ElleN on 04/17/2024 4:52 PM Posted By BillD16 on 04/17/2024 4:39 PM I almost hate to admit it but I am very much the kind of person who could get hooked on RNOR and drive everyone freaking crazy. Are you not hooked on TPC 209, BO 22 and your own covenants and bylaws? My view (in case I did not sneer enough in my earlier posts): Anyone in HOA Land hooked on RONR would not be driving people crazy. They would be spouting nonsense (meaning nothing with any teeth whatsover) 99.9% of the time. Which of course actually happens at many HOAs where there is someone who thinks RONR is more fun to read than the actual governing documents and (oh so few) applicable statutes. Oh, I know! When I said I could get hooked on RONR - that’s not a brag. I could also get hooked on cigarettes. I’ve been a serious computer nerd for a long time and there are aspects (like self-modification) of RONR and legal systems and rule systems that are very ‘appealing’ to me. But I promise I’ll do my best to avoid getting sucked in. Bill

HOA Board ex-President Austin, Texas USA “You can’t put too much water in a nuclear reactor”

KerryL1
(California)

Posts:13269

04/18/2024 7:58 PM
Sorry, Elle, based on my real life experience with an HOA president very knowledgeable from a long-term high level professional capacity in the public sector, and as a former member of an HOA Board, I defer to his educated real life opinion. I'm puzzled why you would impute motives to him. At the time we were a very inexperienced and new Board except for him & his previous experience. He simply translated the very basics of RONR to the rest of us. I'm talking simple motions, civility, turn-taking, the importance of accurate minutes, etc. He did not "force" us to do anything. I've served with I think about 13 HOA Board presidents, and he was the most effective, affable, open, and savvy president among all of them. 2nd best is our current president though he knows nothing about RONR. Interestingly, maybe, both hold MPA degrees. For interested readers, https://robertsrules.forumflash.com has lotsa interesting Q&A some of which involve HOAs. I haven’t reviewed it in a few years, but take a look. There are good questions that this Forum will answer: Here's one: "Our HOA Board voted to approve an agenda item. Toward the end of the meeting an open forum is held and owners can make remarks and ask questions. One owner seemed very savvy about the item the board approved and diplomatically noted that perhaps the Board wasn't aware of xxx about this approved expenditure. He asked that the board reconsider the motion. The owner made a lot of sense. Can the Board do that? What is the correct procedure, if possible?" The Forum would easily answer this question based on RONR. The problem for HOA boards is that a way to reconsider an approved motion (same night) or rescind an approved motion (different night) is not specified in most bylaws. Jim Slaughter is a very highly respected parliamentarian & attorney who often speaks on HOAs. Will you also repast you accusations that the above Forum is full of relatives and is somehow suspect? Finally, so far as I j know every state requires that HOAs use an established form of parliamentary procedure and do not state "Except RONR.'"

ElleN
(Idaho)

Posts:4145

04/19/2024 8:43 AM
Posted By KerryL1 on 04/18/2024 7:58 PM Sorry, Elle, based on my real life experience with an HOA president very knowledgeable from a long-term high level professional capacity in the public sector, and as a former member of an HOA Board, I defer to his educated real life opinion. I'm puzzled why you would impute motives to him. I posted: Posted By KerryL1 on 04/18/2024 7:58 PM Your president was forcing RONR to fit his scenario. I understand why he was doing this, but the //fact// is that this is not what RONR says. I did not give a motive. But FWIW, I think his motive was benign. I would have thought this was evident from what I wrote.

ElleN
(Idaho)

Posts:4145

04/19/2024 8:47 AM
Posted By KerryL1 on 04/18/2024 7:58 PM Jim Slaughter is a very highly respected parliamentarian & attorney who often speaks on HOAs. KerryL1, first, he was hawking his product here at the forum. Do you think this is okay? Second, his product is not Robert's Rules but his own guide for parliamentary procedure. The latter fact says everything about how much he does not value RONR for HOAs. I disagree with your other stuff. We are down the rabbit hole with your mis-readings and misunderstandings AFAIC. The ETR thread's deletion was a one-trick pony. People do not like your and my exchanges. It is perhaps on the occasionally present moderator's radar, if not the radars of several members here. You get the last word.

KerryL1
(California)

Posts:13269

04/19/2024 10:06 AM
I'll repeat. This can be very useful for HOA folks: "For interested readers, https://robertsrules.forumflash.com has lotsa interesting Q&A some of which involve HOAs. I haven’t reviewed it in a few years, but take a look. There are good questions that this Forum will answer." There was a period several years ago when I did use this Forum a few times when we had a particularly weak president. I'd read th book section first and then ask. This prez, for instance, insisted that once the board approves meeting minutes, it may not amend them. I had to collect verbal ge form RONR and a few quotes from the Forum that we could, indeed, amend minutes at a board meeting.

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