Talk:Raine Spencer, Countess Spencer

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A news item involving Raine Spencer, Countess Spencer was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the In the news section on 23 October 2016.

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Proper Title[edit]

Does anyone know if she is properly Raine de Chambrun or Raine Spencer, ie surname (not title)? Though she apparently tried to revert to her previous title, Raine, Countess Spencer, but cannot legally do that (though she certainly can use it socially, as has been done in the past by many titled divorcées/widows, including the Queen Mother's close friend Maureen Guinness, who continued to use and generally be called "Dowager Marchioness of Dufferin and Ava" despite two later marriages and divorces), did Raine legally retrieve her previous SURNAME, Spencer? Or is she still "de Chambrun", legally?

—… Legally you can call yourself anything you like provided it is not intended to further a fraudulent deception. The accepted social rule is that once a title is lost by re-marriage it cannot be reclaimed, however as indicated above that has not prevented a number of prominent divorceés doing precisely that. It is of course perfectly reasonable to refer to her as 'The former Dowager Countess Spencer'.Westminsterboy 08:49, 18 November 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

education[edit]

Raine de Chambrun has rather formidable educational and work credits. Why no mention of these? Besides being fluent in Japanese and a graduate of the LSE, there are others. If I can gather all of this info. shall I add it to the article? ----Ashley Rovira 20:41, 4 August 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Reference to a single author website does not constitute a satisfactory citation. --Westminsterboy 22:36, 27 July 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]

It should be noted that per Cowley v. Cowley a the ex-wife of a peer does not lose the ability to style herself by her marital title in the accepted form for an ex-wife. Raine could continue to style herself as Raine, Countess of Dartmouth or Raine, Countess Spencer if she wanted.

Queen Brandissima

In Cowley v Cowley the House of Lords refused Lord Cowley an injunction restraining his divorced and remarried wife from continuing to style herself as Lady Cowley on the grounds that this was a matter of social convention and not a legal question. --Westminsterboy 23:10, 19 August 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]

HELP In editing this page I managed to delete the footnotes at the bottom. Does anyone know how to get them back? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Caelon (talk • contribs) 11:33, 31 October 2008 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Surname[edit]

Is there any indication that she legally resumed the surname Spencer (I am not talking about the title here at the moment) after her divorce from Chambrun? This is entirely possible; my mother, for instance, retrieved, legally, by deed poll, her previous surname upon divorcing a later husband. Raine can certainly call herself Raine, Countess Spencer, per accepted social convention though obviously not from a legal standpoint. But what is her LEGAL surname? That should be the title of this article if it can be proved. It is entirely possible that she dropped Chambrun and retrieved Spencer. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.80.111.132 (talk) 23:26, 2 March 2008 (UTC)Reply[reply]

VOTE FOR MOVE[edit]

Raine the countess Spencer can call herself whatever she wishes, same as the rest of us. This is the view of the law as well as of social convention.

I would like to make a suggestion that the article be moved to RAINE SPENCER rather than RAINE DE CHAMBRUN. She appears to have legally retrieved the surname Spencer, though obviously not the title, and therefore the article should be RAINE SPENCER, with a mere notation in the text that she prefers to use her previous style.72.80.111.132 (talk) 23:28, 2 March 2008 (UTC)Reply[reply]

We are not a newspaper, and we give other divorced peeresses, most notably Sarah, Duchess of York, their former title - as usage and courtesy, even if technically incorrect. I would therefore move to Raine, Countess Spencer, since she is not The Countess Spencer, nor is she called so - nor do we use that style for anybody else. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:00, 13 May 2009 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Raine Spencer, Dowager Countess Spencer or Raine Spencer both will do, both are correct, and I have no preference. Giano (talk) 06:42, 14 May 2009 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I have moved this page to the correct title, in line with other women with similar ranks Hannah Primrose, Countess of Rosebery and Deborah Cavendish, Duchess of Devonshire. Giano (talk) 15:55, 14 May 2009 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Quite sensible. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:24, 14 May 2009 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I would suggest that the correct title is plain "Raine Spencer": she ceased to be a countess upon her divorce from Earl Spencer, or possibly her subsequernt remarriage. She is not "Dowager Countess" for the same reason, as it also prevents her being EArl Spencer's widow. Peterkingiron (talk) 21:14, 16 May 2009 (UTC)Reply[reply]

If I had a choice, Raine Spencer would be it, purely for egalitarian reasons. However, she was not dicorced from Earl Spencer she was his widow and legitimately (see references) returned to her older title and surname when her subsequent marriage broke up - Hence, Raine Spencer, Countess Spencer is the correct name per Wikipedia naming conventions. Giano (talk) 21:59, 16 May 2009 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I agree with Septentrionalis and Giano. Since she was not divorced from The Earl Spencer she is indeed legally and according protocol be name The Countess Spencer. In the UK the widow of a peer may continue to use the style she had during her husband's lifetime, provided that his successor, if any, has no wife to bear the plain title. Otherwise she more properly prefixes either her forename or the word "Dowager". The only question is thus whether she has to be named Raine Spencer, Countess Spencer or Raine Spencer, Dowager Countess Spencer. I think the latter since her stepson became the new earl and married. Demophon (talk) 12:59, 21 May 2009 (UTC)Reply[reply]

London County Council[edit]

She was on the London County Council - [1] and [2]: apparently the last surviving representative of that body. Jackiespeel (talk) 21:28, 23 October 2016 (UTC)Reply[reply]

External links modified[edit]

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Parting from Dartmouth[edit]

The article states "The Earl and Countess of Dartmouth were consequently divorced in 1976". Was she divorced as a consequence of her affair with Spencer or does the editor mean "subsequently", which is the same~thing but without the implication that one thing was consequent on the other? Everybody got to be somewhere! (talk) 14:40, 23 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]