Bonjour! Welcome to our snark sub on faux feminist Saint Meghan and her hypocrite prince, Harry.
british vs american culture
And if so, do the people of Sussex resent the titles given to two people who don't live in the country or even talk about the entire UK?
I ask (being an American) because I see the Prince and Princess of Wales visiting Wales now that they have the titles.
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Back in the day, a title would usually come with land's, a duke of Sussex would have a castle and lands in Sussex. Now it's just an honorary title. The people of York and Sussex have started petitions to have the titles removed as they don't wish to be associated with these dukes.
I read Historical Romance Novels (not classic literature, just Mills and Boon type stuff). Yes, all the Dukes, Earls, etc. in the books live in the area. I think it was called their "County Seat", is that right?
When and why did it change? And if they are just honorary titles, why make the title names of places (Sussex)?
Actually - not every Duke of a county or place has their estate in wherever…..
Examples are the Duke of Norfolk - whose castle and estate are actually at Arundel in - wait for it - Sussex, and the Duke of Westminster who has his Estate in Cheshire!
Most of the Royal Dukes these days are landless - unless they buy their own (eg King Charles bought Highgrove when he was the Duke of Cornwall….)
But when did it all change? Weren't these estates/castles entailed (meaning they belonged to the title and were passed down to each Duke, Earl, etc.)? I thought if it was entailed then it couldn't be sold.
You have to dig into the roots of the title. For example, I looked up the Duke of Norfolk. (Wikipedia has a lot of easily-accessible information.)
The first Duke of Norfolk was Thomas Mowbray, made by King Richard II. However, Mowbray was already the Earl of Norfolk. That title originated shortly after the Norman conquest, with a family who did indeed hold large estates in Norfolk but also in other counties. The title wandered around a bit; it was either forfeited or lapsed without an heir. In that case the crown could re-bestow the title without regard for its locality. That is how Thomas Mowbray's ancestor received the Earl of Norfolk title. The king chose to raise him to Duke (though that didn't work out well).
So it's very easy for a title to become disassociated from the locality after which it is named.
Have you watched downtown Abbey? Basically the estates became too expensive to run and were sold. There are still titles that come with land e.g. The duke of Argyll and then there are the discretionary royal titles that are honorary titles, only two of which come with an income, the duchy of Cornwall and duchy of Lancaster.
Yes, I watched Downton Abbey. How can they sell an estate if it was entailed? I thought some estates belonged to the title, which means the next Duke, Earl, etc. would inherit the title and the estates. That meant they couldn't sell them.
If the estate goes bankrupt, it needs to be sold to pay off the debts. The title will still be passed on but the land is gone.
Estates weren’t necessarily entailed.
When the owner dies, his heir has to pay the death duties (taxes), which are huge. If they can’t afford to pay the death duties, they have to sell off part of the estate, and so on, until it’s all gone.
Some estates had yet to recover from paying death duties when the new owner died, requiring the taxes to be paid yet again. So more of the estate had to be sold off again.
Some owners were spendthrifts, gamblers, etc. and lost their estates due to debts.
What books are your favorite? I read historical fiction and have run out so I’m down for some historical romance.
Have you read any Philippa Gregory books?
I love her books! The Other Boleyn Girl is the reason why I got so interested in the BRF's history.
I’ve read every single book she’s written :))
Or Spies for the Crown/England?
Ooohhh yes to that as well!! Double yes. Sorry for the late reply, I had so much work to do before bed. Thanks again for taking the time to reply.
I can give you some good suggestions. I read Historical Romance Novels set in the late 1700s and all through the 1800s. What would you like? Revolutionary War? Regency England? Romance on a ship (pirates/privateers)? American Civil War? American Guilded Age?
I’ve loved medieval era hist fic but regency England and romance on a ship sound great. I typically don’t read anything set in America at any time. Thank you!
Welsh people too wish to remove the Prince/ess of Wales title.
Why? Just curious.
Many Welsh people are not huge fans of being colonised by the English. Not having English royalty as the Prince and Princess of Wales would be a step further towards independence. (Wales already has a somewhat devolved government)
Colonised is somewhat an euphemism. Both welsh and irish people have been stripped of their culture, language and identity, to the point that speaking welsh or irish meant being beated or locked up. And we let Harold prince of nothing run his mouth talking about "generational pain" or whatever the feck he said.
I will let Welsh people themselves speak on the matter
Thanks for the link. I read it. Very interesting.
Sussex resident- and yes we hate them using our name! Yes we have petitioned more than once.
Does Meghan really have the duchess title when she didn't become a British citizen?
Someone said the Queen had Meghan addressed as Duchess as a courtesy?
So all the Duchess titles in the RF are courtesy titles. It's actually the husband who holds the title and the wife and children technically bear courtesy titles based on their husband's style. Hence Meghan's technical style (not title, because it's not hers) is Princess Henry, Duchess of Sussex. Prince Michael, who holds no other title, is why his wife Marie Christine is normally known as Princess Michael, hence the tradition of giving the family ducal titles so they can at least be called the Duchess of wherever.
It's like how very formally Mr Joe Bloggs' wife is called Mrs Joe Bloggs and not Mrs Jane Bloggs.
Very sexist, but there we go. And men can't hold courtesy titles from women, hence Princess Anne's husband has no titles, and Anne can't pass her title onwards. When she decided her children wouldn't have titles, the mechanism of the decision was for her husband not to be given a title. A Dukedom or earldom for example normally comes with a subsidiary title which is borne as a courtesy title by the children ( Eg Earl of Wessex and Viscount Severn).
So if Meghan were stripped of her title, it'd have to legally be Harry who is stripped of it. That's also why Diana had the right to retain the style Princess of Wales but put it after her name after her divorce, because legally the only way to get rid of it is to take away the substantive title. Camilla was able to use the style of Princess of Wales and that couldn't be taken away, but she just chose not to.
The queen was Duke of Lancaster. The only female duke....
You don’t have to be a British citizen to be a duchess. She’s married to a duke, that makes her a duchess no matter what her nationality is… unfortunately.
I heard that as well
The Principality of Wales, a country, is an entirely different thing. Modern royal dukedoms have little to do with the place of title. The Duke of Gloucester doesn't reside in Gloucester for example. The first Duke of Sussex certainly didn't spend much of his time on the south coast. Just decorative.
Medieval dukedoms/earldoms, on the other hand, were certainly tied to lands held.
(ETA) Queen Mary's father was made Duke of Teck by his cousin the King of Wurttemburg, but unlike some dukes in imperial Germany (the sovereign Duke of Anhalt say), the Teck title (within the kingdom of Wurttemburg) had no land or authority associated. It just gave Prince Francis of Teck more social standing as the consort of Princess Mary Adelaide at the court of Queen Victoria.
I’ve seen somewhere the people of Sussex have made a petition to have their name removed.
Only Duchy of Lancaster(monarch) and Duchy of Cornwall(heir) come with responsibilities and incomes, the rest get honorary titles after marriage
I heard ISCARIOT is available.
Prince Judas of Iscariot
and
Dutchess Meghan of Iscariot
What I want to know is why they had to be given the Sussex titles instead of something else? Edward and Sophie are the Earl and Countess of Wessex---so couldn't the Queen have just given Harry and Meghan Earl and Countess titles?
Or...are there other titles that wouldn't be so PR-friendly...since that's all that Meghan cared about. Something like the Duke and Duchess of Soggybottom or something? lol
There are several “Royal Dukedoms” available for the Monarch to bestow on family members. Some have been used before, but Previous owners died with no heir so they went back for re-use. Those like the Gloucesters and Kents will carry on as non Royal Dukedoms one the present HRHs (Richard of Gloucester and Edward of Kent) pass on. Their eldest sons will become Dukes etc, and in the line of succession, but no HRH.
Apparently Edward was offered the Dukedom of Cambridge when he married Sophie, but opted to be Wessex as he liked Wessex from the Shakespeare in Love movie, and allegedly was offered the Duchy of Edinburgh after his parents’ deaths. As we all know, Cambridge went to William on marriage.
Currently, I think there are three Royal Dukedoms held in abeyance, Albany (not been used for a while), Clarence (last used by William IV), and Windsor(unlikely to be ever used again). I’m sure that they can whistle up some more if need be, but none of the Royal Dukedoms come with grand houses or Estates - they are just honorary titles
The Duke of York was the title given to the second son (in Regency days, there Really was a Grand Old Duke of York who was nominally in charge of the Army, and did “march his men to the top of of the hill and marched them down again”, it was held by the Queen’s father when his brother was Prince of Wales, and then given to Andrew on marriage.
I’m American too so no expert! I think part of the difference with Wales is that it’s a part of uniting the United Kingdom. So in that way, it is a bit more about having a relationship with the country and representing the people.
I remember something about Wales not wanting to lose its identity so the Crown agreed that the heir to the throne would be called The Prince of Wales as a way to make sure Wales got a prominent name in the kingdom. So it was what Wales wanted at the time. It seems new generations don't know or care about the historic meaning of things.
I live in Sussex and I bloody hope not
The Douchess of Sussex if there had been a castle would have sold it by now if she could. Having said that. The titles are there and honestly, The Duke of York really does not deserve to have his title stripped.
I still feel he is covering for a bigger picture because why would there be a payout for something that happened about 20 years ago. There is more to it than that. I think he is taking one for someone.
As for Harry and his wife, sheesh...they will disappear from our lives sooner than later.
I reserve my comments on Andy as well because it will be like opening a can of very dangerous worms. We can only hope and wish his daughters all the best in their new roles.
Yes. You should represent the good people of Sussex.
I doubt Meghan has even been into Sussex.
I bet she couldn’t point it out on a map.