The name Wynton Marsalis is practically synonymous with post 1970s retro acoustic bop revival.
Most guides to Jazz history (e.g. Ted Gioia) treat Marsalis as the leading figure in the bop revival. I think this is also common among listeners, who sometimes treat bop as skipping entirely between Red Clay in 1970 and Black Codes in 1985.
(Note, I am aware that this is not accurate and that there were many great bop players like Shaw, Heath Harris, Harper, Tolliver, who did great work during this period.)
However, by the time that Wynton Marsalis reaches his fame, it seems like the bop revival is already well underway. I am therefore struggling to understand why it is so closely associated with him.
The following appear to be key events in the revival of public interest in acoustic bop music.
Dexter Gordon's return to the US, to wide acclaim, was 1976. VSOP/Herbie Hancock started playing acoustic jazz in 1977. By 1977, Joe Henderson was back to playing acoustic hard bop. Ricky Ford already had a number of fine acoustic hard bop records under his belt, starting in 1977, as did several other younger players. Johnny Griffin's return to the US was in 1978. Steps (soon to be Steps Ahead) had already been jamming in New York to acclaim, and had recorded its debut in 1979. Wynton Marsalis' tour with Art Blakey is 1980 and his debut is released in 1982.
So - my question is: why is the bop revival so associated with Marsalis in the mind of both the general public and writers, even now, when his debut tour and record are almost five years into the movement?
I'd be particularly interested in hearing from anyone older, who remembers the period between 1976/77 and Marsalis' rise, but any opinions are welcome.
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Probably, like many things, it’s because he’s always been the most vocal about his attitude towards jazz. When you shout the loudest, people tend to pay more attention to you. The acts you mentioned were also already profiling names in jazz, Wynton was the new kid in the block, that gave the music press an angle to sell him to their readers.
That makes sense.
Richie Cole and Barry Harris may have been shouting but noone would pay attention I suppose. Plus they're stuck on Muse and Xanadu, not Columbia.
Query why Ricky Ford doesn't get the same breakthrough though. Perhaps Marsalis was just more charismatic or caught the eye of the right critics (i.e. Crouch) and label heads (i.e., Dr. Butler).
Certainly, whatever one thinks of his playing, he's a grade A talker, with all the self confidence in the world.
I still don't understand why the link gets repeated in 2022 though, long after Marsalis has aged. Institutional capture may be a part of it - with the late Crouch and the Lincoln Centre and most music critics being content to footnote each others' work.
I mean, Wynton is VERY charismatic, get him talking about jazz and the enthusiasm comes across as genuine, and that’s something that I think a lot of people connected with. I remember some people dismissing him as a curator of museum music, but you can’t deny his love for jazz.
Or his contempt for "lesser" music. Which is where the real dismissal comes from.
True. I think it boils down to the same thing, his narrow-mindedness turned a lot of people off. I remember people in the 80s talking more about Branford, and not just because of the time he spent with Sting’s band.
because his enthusiasm is genuine. I'm not a Marsalis acolyte.
I agree it’s genuine, I was trying to be diplomatic lol. I think Wynton makes Ken Burns’ Jazz, his enthusiasm makes you want to check out jazz and see if you can hear what he’s hearing. Spoiler alert: you can.
He’s made it a point to be THE guy playing at every fancy black tie rich people jazz event in the 90s-2000s. The fact that more people know him than booker little or Clifford brown is a tragedy. He is definitely an ambassador for jazz for better or worse, I just think his work sounds like elevator music.
Also Stanley crouch can eat shit. Some of the worst opinions in jazz history, and he helped foment the current unimaginative stifling jazz landscape. If there’s one music critic I have true dislike for, it’s him. People like him are why jazz stagnated so much for 30+ years.
¿Is that the critic who gets ridiculed in a discussion by a guy who played with Miles Davis in his electric period? If so, he is a major asshole indeed.
Not sure which piece you're referring to, but could be. Crouch was the main critical voice supporting this stuff.
Among other career highs are his tendency to threaten anyone who disagreed with him to a fist fight, selling out David Murray, and his homophobic attack on Cecil Taylor.
Do you have a link to that article? I read that he outed Taylor but I wasn't able to find it. I just want to hate Crouch more. I am honoring his legacy as a hater by hating (RIP)
I have tried finding it on Google but can't. I assumed that if it was VV (not sure) then they'd have taken it down by now.
I would subscribe to your bolg but I probably already am
There's a video on YouTube. Yes, it must be him. Had no idea about that Cecil Taylor affair, what a piece of shit. Going back to the video, Crouch says in it that according to I don't know who, Miles went electric because of economic interests, something which the musician arguing with him says is bullshit. Another stupid argument from Crouch is that fusion wasn't important because it didn't "influence" any artist from other genres. When I heard that I couldn't believe what I was hearing. I sincerely don't understand the logic of these kind people. ¿Who doesn't hear Light As a Feather, or Heavy Weather to name a few examples, and doesn't recognize the musical brilliance of these artists?
Yeah because Bitches Brew is so radio friendly, it's a hits machine! /s
....not to mention Cecil Taylor's music was far more inventive and exciting than Wynton Marsalis'.
Lmao you think miles went electric for shits and gigs? I don’t even know crouch but I know exactly why miles did what he did, and it wasn’t because electric sounded better. Do more research please.
Sure is. The percussionist is Mtume, he also had a string of hits with his own band “Mtume” including Juicyfruit which was later sampled as the main loop for BIggies giant hit “Juicy”. Mtume destroys him in that interview it’s great.
Also imagine thinking you have a better definition of what jazz is than Miles Davis. The absolute gall.
He was also a mainstay of the early 70s bop scene in the corner now described as "spiritual jazz". Kawaida (sometimes credited to his uncle, although it's really Mtume's creation) and the slightly more extreme Alkebu-Lan are two of his classics.
I've seen that video. It's a great watch. I like the slow, inevitable, progress of the demolition.
Thank you and OP for the info about Mtome, I will check him out. And don't forget: FUCK STANLEY CROUCH
No one has mentioned that Wynton was a classical virtuoso. That made him more visible and remarkable to the public. It increased interest and respect for jazz among classical musicians and audiences.
Yeah I think he won Grammys for classical and jazz in the same year, which was a big deal at the time.
guy can fucking play a trumpet all kinds of ways
there are no doubt others with similar backgrounds, but is there anyone of WM's generation academy-trained at such a high level who was also steeped his whole life in high caliber "pre-academy" jazz musicianship (to whatever degree he absorbed it)?
He was a great promoter and spokesperson, agree or disagree with his opinions.
That's true. He's certainly a great raconteur and skilled contraversialist, even as an older guy.
Well remember he was a "Young Lion" in the 80's when he rose to fame.
also great bloodlines. I'd rather listen to recordings Ellis made than any of his kids
Columbia’s money. It was the tail end of the period when major labels invested into jazz musicians, and Wynton was blown up massively by Columbia because he was just so marketable. Much more so than any of the guys you mentioned, let alone anyone who was playing in more adventurous subgenres, or anyone who came a decade later. As a result he got this massive platform to spout his (and Stanley Crouch’s) opinions. Meanwhile no one outside of a relatively small community ever cared what Joe Henderson or Johnny Griffin have to say.
That sounds right. Especially when the two towering moments of the revival are supposed to be Dexter Gordon's return and Wynton's ascent. Both on Columbia.
Marketable? If dedicating your life to a craft makes you marketable then I guess he is… marketable is for Disney channel and tik tok kids
It makes sense that the old guys would keep playing the old music. That's not a headline.
Wynton & crew was the young lions stating that that was the appropriate jazz to be played. He seemed like the Hot New Thing in jazz and he declared that 1962 Hard Bop was the Hot New Thing.
That's right - there were plenty of styles and notable players through the '70s, including older guys. Fusion was the major direction, along with a new wave of Free Jazz like Anthony Braxton and Art Ensemble of Chicago. Then, a few years later, a bunch of guys emerge as the Young Lions. With their youth, talent and backward-looking reactionary theories, they were welcomed/nurtured as some sort of legit progressive movement - rather than the regressive escape from cutting edge music that they really were. Wynton was the figurehead, and continues to proselytize the same ideas.
(And when did Jazz stop being a relentlessly self-renewing forward-moving genre, continuously revitalized by its cutting edge? Was it about the time the Jazz media, labels and establishment embraced these fresh-faced charmers?)
Did the jazz media ever actually fully embrace them though? Did Marsalis really get better reviews than the ECM era Art Ensemble?
They certainly did. And way more saturation coverage than their modest achievements rated.
I thought he was fairly contraversial. I'm not sure that any of his records won Downbeat polls etc.
I think that makes sense, but what about the Ricky Fords and Breckers of the world? They were young guys too, at least around 1979.
In terms of the other musicians you mentioned
Herbie Hancock was doing a lot of other stuff besides acoustic post bop VSOP type stuff in the 80's (remember Rockit?), so he wasn't so easy to pigeonhole / market. Remember that Wynton was even critical of Herbie at times over this, despite Herbie having played a key role in launching Wynton's career. Herbie talked about this a bit in his memoir.
Joe Henderson and Dexter Gordon never really got their full due / fame, either in the 60's or in the 80's. Gordon I think had more of the public image of bohemian, journeyman, like the semi-autobiographical character he played in Round Midnight. Which was less marketable than Wynton's glossy image in the 80's. As for Henderson, I think he just did not have as much of a strong personality and/or marketing savvy.
Ricky Ford, Johnny Griffin, well I don't think they had as much influence even on other jazz musicians much less on the broader culture.
Of all the musicians mentioned here, only Wynton and Herbie had the personality / ambition / savvy to reach the popular culture in any big way, get on the cover of Time magazine, get on MTV etc.
Thanks. This is a great answer. Really helpful.
Not sure about the 70s, but I think he might have sealed his reputation with his very prominent appearance in Ken Burns' 'Jazz' documentary.
He's Mr Jazz in that, and the documentary's focus on mainly traditional stuff, with only a cursory mention of the more 'out' and free stuff, also essentially ending the history of jazz before fusion began. All with Marsalis providing the role of musician and historical authority.
For younger generations coming to jazz, that documentary might be the first thing they go to when they want to start learning about the music and the history, with Marsalis as the face of it.
He's also very, very vocal with his opinions about what is and isn't jazz, and is very dismissive of the latter, along with his friend Stanley Crouch (another big presence in that documentary), so he's very visible as a voice of the moldy figs.
Great player, though.
Maybe that's part of perpetuating the myth.
I started listening to jazz when that documentary / polemic came out and remember everyone getting furious about it. I ignored it at the time as a result (I was primarily into vanguard stuff at the time, and probably still am a bit) and have never thought to watch it, despite quite enjoying hearing Marsalis talk.
It certainly kept him as the voice of the MFs, as you say, and given he's dictating the history he's hardly going to be interested in minimising his own importance by noting that the path had been well prepared for him.
It's a great documentary up until 1960. Highly recommended. Just stop watching after it hits 1960.
Thanks. It's all available these days so I really should watch it.
If nothing else, it's an important moment in jazz history, along with the surrounding controversy.
Hey now. The real moldy figs say everything after 1937 is garbage. I don't want any of that newfangled Wynton Marsalis bippity boppity
Also has to do with exposure & his pedigree is deep in jazz. The Marsalis's are well known. I prefer Branford but talent of them all is key.
First, can anyone say what particular record he is known by? Any massive hits or popular records, like Miles many pieces or Coltrane's. I don’t know, I just don’t know his musical ensemble that well.
I do recall Wynton wasn’t a fan of fusion jazz. He liked the traditional swing, bebop jazz standard lineage.
It’s interesting how his name got so big. He has a big personality, maybe that has something to do with it. Also, many of the PTB didn’t like the new Jazz, Miles’ fusion, and definitely not Avant-Garde so perhaps certain elites pushed him into the popularity sphere. He and his brother got started playing with Blakey, and remember he was a classical player too, but he did crack the mainstream in popularity, a rare phenomenon for a traditional jazz player.
The consensus I see a lot on this sub is essentially "Wynton is a backwards dude with bad opinions...... But Black Codes is a banger album." and I have to agree.
That sums up my views pretty much
Plus would give him a lot of credit for helping to grow jazz education
Yeah this is a great question. Marsalis doesn't seem to have a masterpiece like A Love Supreme or Kind of Blue or Bitches Brew or Giant Steps.
The only Marsalis album I can even name off the top of my head is Black Codes from the Underground. It is a very very good album, but has not had the kind of impact on either music or the general culture compared the albums I mentioned above.
That’s my point. You take most great players: Dizzy, Night in Tunisia, Lee Morgan’s got Sidewinder, Freddie’s got Red Clay, Horace Silver, Song for my father Blakey’s got Moanin, and many others, Miles, many great tunes, Hancock, many great pieces, Trane’s got A Love Supreme and many others, but Wynton doesn’t seem to have any great tunes to his name. Strange. Maybe he does, I just don’t know them, since I do admit I’m not too much into him, though I have heard him and recognize his awesome playing. Likely some power elites liked him for his jazz outlook and got behind him and pushed his popularity. I say good for him!
J Mood's good too. Maybe better because it's looser. I still agree with your point.
As a trumpet player I remember hearing his Standard Time album in high school and loving it. Thought his earlier stuff was better and soloing with Blakey was just unreal. Basically just before he really blew up in popularity the way everyone is saying.
I agree. Longn term impact of his musicag is small.
On the elites front, I'd say money guys (Dr Butler) and audience (for) vs critics (against, largely, save for the Crouchs).
But it's interesting how the jazz establishment has effectively memory holed what came before Marsalis.
What do you mean by that?
I meant that the history book writers have agreed to forget that events like Dexter Gordon's return were actually what led to the bop revival, in favour of a narrative that focuses on the later date based around Marsalis
Okay. I got that. Be that as It may, I don’t even agree there was ever any bop revival of any real impact around Wynton or Dexter. Maybe there was, I don't really know. I stopped listening to jazz a while back and recently returned to it. But I do remember Dextors's great album, One Flight Up!
We got to listen to Branford speak last semester for about an hour. I asked him “what young cats are you checking out” and he replied “I only listen to dead musicians”. The whole family is full of shit, aside from Jason who I think has a wonderful perspective.
I think he was joking. He can be annoyingly sarcastic and deadpan. Branford and Wynton are constantly introducing innovative new young musicians. They are the best talent scouts since Art Blakey and Miles Davis imo. My favorite musicians of the past few years were all introduced by the Marsalis Bros. Currently I'm on a Veronica Swift binge thanks to them.
you think correctly. he's probably tired of wearing a hat to ward off the shitstorm his brother stoked
I used to enjoy Branford's interviews and opinions, but I think lately he is sounding more and more like Wynton than he used to. Sometimes I think he is trying to attract controversy and thereby attention, not sure he wholeheartedly believes everything he says.
I agree. They seem to have flipped, save that Branford hasn't suddenly inherited Wynton's charisma.
Part of it also is that the period Wynton was coming up was the beginnings of the Reagan era, the birth of the neo-conservative movement, and the broader revival of American exceptionalism. His views on this music very much fit in with the broader political messaging of the time, while folks like Barry Harris, Dexter Gordon, and others were more old masters continuing their work. A younger guy taking part in this revival is going to be a much better centerpiece to justify the need for a revival.
Which interviews are those? I wasn't aware of this.
I’m just talking about his overall views on jazz. There’s no interviews I can point to showing Wynton to be a neocon. It’s more the Young Lions as a whole are a product of the birth of the neo-conservative movement and couldn’t have emerged during the more liberal parts of the 20th century like the 60s.
neocon in jazz means something different from neocon in politics.
I was under the impression that he mostly does it to himself.