By Instituto Gilberto Gil
Interview: Kamille Viola, writer, journalist and music researcher*
Singer and songwriter Jorge Ben Jor comments on his relationship with Gilberto Gil (Maio de 2020)Instituto Gilberto Gil
Africanness in friendship and music
Jorge Ben Jor highlights his and Gilberto Gil's common commitment to affirming and valuing, in their songs, the Afro-Brazilian culture and the figure of the black as a multiple and powerful being.
What does the artist Gilberto Gil mean to you?
Gilberto Gil, Jorge Ben Jor e Flora Gil na festa de aniversário da esposa e empresária do músico baiano (2005-06-02)Instituto Gilberto Gil
Jorge Ben Jor:
Gil is a nice, intelligent figure. I accompanied him when he was a candidate for mayor and a councilman in Bahia. In the old days, a “concert-rally” was allowed, so I played in his campaign. Then I accompanied Gil as minister of Culture, which to me was perfect.
Gilberto Gil e Jorge Ben Jor se encontram em Paris durante o Ano do Brasil na França (Julho de 2005)Instituto Gilberto Gil
I stayed a week with him in France [in 2005, in the Year of Brazil, when several artists played in the Bastille and they did a duet of “Filho Maravilha”]. There, I met Gil. I already knew Gil, but there I got to know him better. He's a nice guy, upright, and he's a friend, you know?
Gil was already a fan of yours since you first album. Do you remember when you met?
Gilberto Gil, Caetano Veloso, Guilherme Araújo e os tropicalistas posam, em 1968, para a Revista Manchete (1968)Instituto Gilberto Gil
Jorge Ben Jor:
Yeah, Gil told me that. I met Gil through manager Guilherme Araújo (1936–2007). Guilherme asked me if I wanted to join the group they were putting together, which had Gilberto Gil, Gal Costa, Caetano Veloso, and Tom Zé, who later came to be called Tropicália.
Gilberto Gil, Gal Costa, Caetano Veloso, Jorge Ben e os Mutantes (1968)Instituto Gilberto Gil
He said to me: “Do you want to be in it?” I said: “Sure! If they let me, I want to be in it.” That’s when I met Gil. The first time I met Gil was in the Tropicália project.
In what way do you believe your music and Gil’s talk? What do you think the two of you have in common?
Jorge Ben, Gilberto Gil e Caetano Veloso no encerramento do evento Phono 73 (1973)Instituto Gilberto Gil
Jorge Ben Jor:
We try to say the same thing, tell the same story. Besides talking about Brazilian things, international things, relationships with people, with work, with muses.
Muses are interesting: if you don’t have a muse, you don’t have music and you have no inspiration. Our work has poetry, it has street smarts. We talk about everything.
Vocês dois valorizam muito a cultura negra nos trabalhos de vocês, né?
Gilberto Gil e amigos na década de 1960Instituto Gilberto Gil
Jorge Ben Jor:
I always showed the black man. Blacks here are treated as slaves. The first black people, whom I mention in my music—Angola, Congo, Benguela, Monjolo, Cabinda, Mina, Quiloa, and Rebolo (an excerpt from the song “Zumbi,” recorded in the album A Tábua de Esmeralda)—were not slaves.
They are African ethnicities who left there as Africans and arrived here as slaves. I wanted to show that in my songs: that the black man, above everything, is nice, intelligent, free, and beautiful. Beautiful. And Gil always showed that too.
Gilberto Gil e Jorge Ben Jor na época da Tropicália (1968)Instituto Gilberto Gil
We had several black idols who were great writers in those days. Black men of great intelligence. Machado de Assis, for example. There’s Abdias Nascimento. They don't teach that in schools. We used to worry about talking without hurting anyone. With just a little ostentation.
You were an artist who always had your independent work. Apart from your passage through Tropicália, you weren’t in any movement?
Gilberto Gil e Roberto Carlos no programa Jovem Guarda (1967)Instituto Gilberto Gil
Jorge Ben Jor:
I’m not in any movement, no. I think movements adopted me. When there was Jovem Guarda, I was invited by Erasmo Carlos and Roberto Carlos to go (on the TV show).
Gilberto Gil, Jair Rodrigues e Elis Regina no programa O Fino da Bossa (1966)Instituto Gilberto Gil
When there was bossa nova, I sang at Fino da Bossa (TV show), which wasn’t my thing.. Bossa nova, Jovem Guarda, and Tropicália were the three movements through which I passed unscathed.
When you joined the guys from Tropicália, they started recording a lot of your songs. Gil, Caetano