A place for images, links, and discussion relevant to the Tudor period. The Tudor period is defined as from the beginning of Henry VII's reign in 1485 to the end of Elizabeth I's reign in 1603. All history (economic, social, religious etc) and discussion of all types of people (monarchs, nobles, commoners) welcome. Submissions pertaining to the Wars of the Roses may be accepted or removed at the discretion of the mods.
Question
I realized I don't know much about the inner workings of court at this period, when a noble was at court would he or she bring their own servants to help them dress, bathe, and such other more intimate tasks, or would this type of servant be provided by the palace?
Sort by:
Best
Open comment sort options
Best
Top
New
Controversial
Old
Q&A
![r/MapPorn - Africa, 1805 by John Cary [2163x1939]](https://b.thumbs.redditmedia.com/1x-2lHZIY2Ph2hXme2n6pbUjVIwdbBkAIez0Akn_phs.jpg)
In England, if you were a noble who had a position at Court, you were allowed "bouche" (may be spelled incorrectly)--their word for an allowance of food and drink per day--for a specific number of attendants. That's how many members of your household and servants you were allowed to have at court.
Only certain people were allowed to being a small number of attended (EDIT: armed) retainers to court. Most of the servants that were at court with a noble were body servants or their business representatives.
Often, a male noble would be at court, and his wife would be at their estate (or one of their estates, depending on their wealth), acting as his representative. If he had no wife, or his wife also had a position in the Queen's household, or for some other reason was not an appropriate choice, a steward or seneschal would handle the business of the estate.
Yu are correct, it is "bouche" because it is the French word for mouth back from the court spoke French.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bouche_of_court
It is one of the things where there are two developed and often contradictory problems.
Firstly, running a royal court is exceptionally expensive and having people eat who aren't supposed to is a drain on funds. But, monarchs are supposed to be generous, the court reflects their glory and it is bad to be seen to be parsimonious. So ministers aren't queueing up for the job of reigning this in because it means they get to be the bad guy and make themselves unpopular amongst their peers.
The other problem is that it is increasingly fashionable to eat in your own chambers with some privacy, but anyone doing so is not eating in the Hall in public making the monarch look generous and magnificent and again enforcing this is going to make you unpopular.
Indeed!
I find the whole system fascinating.
Does this mean that Henry VII’s court had a very limited number of nobles living there since he was a famous miser?
that's very interesting, I always thought the wife would go with her husband so she could socialize and perhaps help with making conexions and such
At Elizabeth's court, in particular, the only women who she wanted around were ones with specific jobs. I'm less familiar with Henry's court, but I think Gareth Russell talks a bit about it in Young and Damned and Fair. During the three years between Jane Seymour's death and Henry's marriage to Anne of Cleves, there were very few women at court, because there was no queen. When there was a queen, the women could be at court gathering information and helping the family. When there was no queen, women were considered surplus to requirements and were thought to be better off out in the country.
So they brought all their own households- but at a minimum level and the lower servants stayed in inns around the castle. I actually just read a book about king Henry viii and it went into the details about all of this. It was really interesting
could you tell me the name of the book? sounds very interesting
Alison Weir: King Henry VIII and his court
https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/henry-viii-the-king-and-his-court_alison-weir/259264/item/480409/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=high_vol_midlist_standard_shopping_customer_acquisition&utm_adgroup=&utm_term=&utm_content=666157863328&gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjw6PGxBhCVARIsAIumnWYS95fHhxRYtCQ2mY6o1GTvPyvsV6L42VTfebB7SBBmGzgy_qW-LXQaAmk2EALw_wcB#idiq=480409&edition=2365659
Alison weir has so many good books about the tudors! Seconding your suggestion
thanks
Does anyone have recommendations of books that discuss the inner workings of court, what it was like to be a lady in waiting or a maid or whatnot?
The Private Lives of the Tudors is a great start
The palace really was an independent city, and everyone who lived or visited the royal court usually had their own servants and attendants to take care of them. How many you had depended on your status, but usually you would hire attendants who helped you dress, bathe, and take care of your clothing/valubles and your rooms in the palace also. Those who lived or who were visiting court would be fed from its many enormous kitchens, and the same goes for their servants, so food and drink was provided by the palace. You could also get various linens and provisions to help your master/mistress from the palace too.
The royal servants and attendants were alot more complicated. You would have those closest to the King/Queen such as grooms of the stool, ladies in waiting, and those who had access to their privy chambers, such as their close friends, councilors, chaplains and entertainers. There would then be those who laundered the royal clothes and repaired them, those who took care of the royals jewellery, a person who took care of the royals furs and textiles, people to take of their horses and hunting birds, royal food tasters, cooks, messengers, the list was endless, the court of servants was a busy place to find yourself.
The royal servants and their courtiers servants all had to move together when the court moved to another palace or to visit a favoured noble. Everything went with them- furniture, tapestries, rugs, the lot- the groom of the stool had to protect the royal stool closet (toilet) throughout the journey and make sure it was ready for their royal master and mistress at a moments notice! It was an incredible sight to behold- essentially like watching London go on walk to the countryside!
Looking after a royal visitor was expensive business not only because you had to take care of them, but their servants too. What kind of host were you if you could only provide for half the people arriving? It could honestly bankrupt a courtier if they were not careful. Hence why even though the majority had lots of lovely houses in the country, it was far more lucrative to stay at court in a suite of rooms and avoid the expense of a visit!
I remember reading that Elizabeth i nearly bankrupted a few nobles by visitting them, when you think of her extended visits to robert dudley it really puts into perspective how powerful he was during her reign
Its true, if you wanted an idea of who was doing well and had a royals favour, look to those who could afford multiple royal visits and you probably have your answer! And what is worse is if she did decide to visit you, you would literally have to beg her council to change their plans, as one of the perks of being a tudor monarch was that (as one elizabethan courtier wrote)
'Every nobleman’s house is her palace, where she continueth during pleasure and till she returns to some of her own,”
I found online that one of Elizabeth's visits led to the owner, Sir Thomas Egerton’s Harefield, spending a fortune to buy things like 24 lobsters, 624 chickens, 48,000 bricks, and new ovens to feed the massive party. All this cost him over £2,000 which is around 10 million dollars or nearly 8 million pounds in today’s money!! No wonder they stayed at court 😅
There is a great book called "The Private Lives of the Tudors," that goes into complete details about how the court worked.
thank you
From what I know about European regal history, nobles would bring their entire household. Servants, furniture… anything they would have at home.
I did not know that, must've been very crowded at court
It was. And incredibly expensive. The crown was expected to feed everyone, from noble to servant. If you haven’t seen it, check out “Hampton Court Secrets of Henry VIII’s Palace”. It has a whole section about the royal kitchens and what it took to feed everyone.
Is this a book or a show? Thanks.
It’s a show. You can find it on YouTube.
Yeah… when you were given “rooms” in the palace. They were completely unfurnished
Mostly for the servants, I bet. But that's okay, as long as the rich&titled had some space. Peasants lol, am I right?
/s, just in case
I love looking at Ladies in Waiting. They are the queens personal servants, they get her food, clothes and keep her company. My interest is how a queen used them. Their biggest job was gossip, at court they went around and talked with other noble ladies and would report back to the queen, essentially giving her all the information of the court.
Queen Cathrine de’Medici of France is famous for using her ladies as mistresses for prominent French aristocrats. The most famous was Isabelle de la Tour, Lady of Limeuil. She had affairs with many noble men and Cathrine knew all the workings of court, despite not being told by the men. It’s fascinating!!!
This is so interesting!!
In the back of my mind, I guess I've wondered for awhile how "court" operated back in those days, but, I hadn't even realized how curious I was about it!!
I began maybe seven or eight years ago watching The Tudors, over the course of a summer in which my mom had broken both ankles, and I stayed over her place to help my parents. Life got busy, I can't even recall which season I left off at, but, I want to pick it up again.