Little known fact: The 6th division of South African forces that fought in Italy in WW2 liberated the city of Florence from the Germans! A great honor that has long been forgotten.
This thread is archived
New comments cannot be posted and votes cannot be cast
My grandad fought in Italy during WW2 was captured by Germans and held as a POW. My Gran and his parents received letter that he is MIA and presumed dead. Imagine their surprise when he got home after the war. Did you guys know that South Africa housed Italian POW’s during the war they were sent to work on farms an given a choice to go home after the war or stay
There's a few graveyards of dead Italian pow, the one near culinan worth a visit
Zonderwater prison in Cullinan was initially an internment facility for Italian POWs
That's how my great uncle Pasquale and his brother Vito came to South Africa.
Apparently they stole a German supply truck full of Italian wine and cheese in Tunisia / Algeria where they were stationed and defected.
They surrendeded to the first Allied patrol they came across which happened to be South African.
My grandfather was South African RAF during the war in north Africa. He shot down the first Italian plane he encountered, majority of the rest just bailed out if they saw tracer rounds coming past, the standard practice was to radio the downed pilot's position in for pickup, they knew that and so they'd just bail and get taken prisoner.
They even escorted a few that didn't want to bail out, back to the RAF fields so they could surrender.
The Italian soldiers didn't want to fight in Hitler's war anyway, and generally they all disliked Mussolini, saw him as ruining their country by getting in bed with Hitler.
Saw a film of them on my grandfathers farm. Weaving baskets while smoking and smiling. They seemed rather happy.
My gran on my moms side told me they where happy. Except the one oke he told her in his best afrikaans. “Nonnatjie I am happy maar ek mis my Familia. Hier ek eet en slaap lekker, maar hulle is honger daar”
My great uncle and his brother defected in north Africa during the war, as a little kid growing up I always remember them talking about how bad it was in Italy during those times, and how the country was collapsing under Mussolini's rule.
They actually joined the Italian army so that they could get out of Italy & away from Mussolini.
My grandfather was there too
Wow what an amazing story
Funny enough, another part of our family from Italy left Italy because of WWII and still lives outside of Joburg.
I had a great-grandfather housed as a POW at Zonderwater. They told stories of the guards having good relations with the POWs and that there was a fair bit of respect all around.
Pity my great-grandparents on my Afrikaans side didn’t get the same treatment during their internment...
As far as I know my grandfather was part of this. He had many mementoes of his experiences in Italy during the war. He died when I was only a child, but one of the most moving memories of my life was the turnout of MOTH members at my grandfather's funeral.
My grandfather passed about 8 years ago, he was staying at one of the MOTH villages in KZN.
There's a sense of community there, that transcends generations. There were guys at his funeral, friends of his for decades, some were WW2 veterans, some were Korean War veterans, all linked by common experience, if not the same war.
I don't know how the fuck I managed to not cry when they called the roll... seriously moving stuff
US General Mark Clark, the 15th Army Group commander, commented on the division's achievements during the Spring Offensive, stating:
"It was a battle-wise outfit, bold and aggressive against the enemy, and willing to do whatever job was necessary. In fact, after a period of severe day and night fighting, the 6th had in an emergency gone into the line as infantrymen. When the snow stalled their armour they dug in their tanks and used them as artillery to make up for our shortage in heavy guns. Whenever I saw them, I was impressed by the large number of decorations and honours they had earned the hard way. Their attacks against strongly organised German positions were made with great élan and without regard for casualties. Despite their comparatively small numbers, they never complained about losses. Neither did Smuts, who made it clear that the Union of South Africa intended to do its part in the War – and it most certainly did."
Source. It also features a great little video of the troops.
Thanks for sharing!
Our current range of tanks almost fought in the WW2. That's how old the platform is. (Useless fact from Mark Felton's You Tube history channel)
Technically true, but they are massively upgraded and more than we need in our setting. There also not many of them, but we aren't really likely to be having massive tank battles in the foreseeable future. Better things to spend our limited budget on.
more than we need in our setting
You never know, Lesotho might start getting shirty and need a good seeing-to!
Lol. Did you not watch Carte Blanche? They already are. The Boers along the border are our defence.
Well then I suggest we invade and go get those WMDs* they're obviously hiding under those funky reed hats.
FYI that's Weed and Many Donkeys.
I agree
We could send one gripen to deal with Lesotho
Time to export some freedom!
Time to
export some freedomban some smoking!
There, fixed.
... in which case we won't deploy the SANDF. We'll phone the Brakpan armed response
Are we talking about the centurion/olifant tanks? The ones, or 100 or so, we bought from the British, retrofitted and customized them to such an extent the British basically used the same upgrades on their Centurion mkII tanks.
Yes! Like SAA
Almost every single component has been replaced since then, they're pretty decent by modern standards. They're not exactly going to beat the latest American or German tanks, but they're more than enough for the Soviet tanks we're most likely to face in any realistic warfare scenario.
If China starts sending modern tanks to this attacker, we'd have a proxy war, and the US would start sending modern tanks to us. So we should be alright.
Send tanks to who? The ANC is dominated by China. Unless you want to start a guerilla campaign Trump ain't sending no tanks 😉🤣
Hard to say, as it's unlikely we'll ever see a big tank battle ever again. Warfare changes. A ratel with a single ZT3 (anti-tank missile) can penetrate twice the thickness of China's Type 96 frontal armour. The same missile will penetrate most of the armour of a Leopard 2 and a M1 Abrams. And we have a bunch of other guided and unguided anti tank missiles including the venerable RPG-7 https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/02/Shared_Accord_2013.jpg
If you look at the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict, I think we should all be terrified of drones. They've become so cheap, that any old country can have them. Traditional SAMs aren't effective against them, you need more modern, specialized missiles.
Drones can perform highly precise strikes on targets that would normally be considered safe. You've got your soldiers, tanks, helicopters and howitzers on the border, but suddenly the car carrying the minister of defense just explodes. The "front line" is far less meaningful than it used to be.
To be clear, I have faith that our tanks/missiles can penetrate modern tanks, anything short of Russian/American tanks with extremely sophisticated armour. What I don't have as much faith in is the resistance of our own armour - as far as I know, Denel has experimented with adding composite plates, but in theory, our tanks could still be vulnerable to RPG-7, and RPG-7 is no longer considered a reliable tank killer - its used more against lighter vehicles.
Do you know which video of Mark Felton?
at he is MIA
not exactly the olifant mk1's are upgraded centurion mk5 which were made after ww2 and speaking about the olifant mk2 its pretty good and made to face off against T-72's which most nations in africa still use
My grandfather fought for South Africa in Italy! Literally in a tank as well. Crazy to think he could be sat inside this tank in this picture.
Mine too!! His hearing was buggered after the war because of the Tanks. My gran loved to travel and had to do it alone because my grandpa "saw enough of Europe during the war". He never spoke of his time there very much. He had left their family farm in Swaziland when he was 17 to go to war.
He passed away in 1993 unfortunately from a massive heart attack. I wish I was able to have more time with him and write down some of his stories from the farm.
No way!! So did mine at 17. He was very tall so could get away with it. Mine actually did go to the UK after the war for university. But yes never spoke about the war, and was certainly changed by it
Right! My great grandfather was stationed at Northern Africa I believe.
My grandfather fought with the Natal Mounted Rifles during this liberation. He was a serious man who didn't shy away from the truth so while growing up I was able to ask him many many questions about his experiences before he passed. The things he told me were horrific. We forget that the German lines still held in Italy until the last day of the war. The fighting was comparable to ww1 trench fighting. The horrors of Monte Sole, the bitter winter in the Apennines.
My grandpa met my Nona in Torino when the war ended. She had escaped from a concentration camp, joined the resistance and met my grandpa at a VE day party.
Thank you for sharing this history. We have so much to be proud of. The Americans were exceptionally impressed by the South Africans during the campaign and knew that despite being a smaller division, they packed a punch way above their weight. They would throw the SA 6th armoured against German strong points because they knew 'n Boer maak 'n plan!
A true testimony to our South Africaness is that our troops were reknowned for being able to get tanks into places no one else could. Mountains that were considered impassable to tanks, yet our boys were able to get Shermans into ridiculous places and use them as mobile artillery platforms.
My grandfather was there as well, sadly he died before i was born and never got the chance to ask him about it. He was an Afrikaner and the family were staunch nationalists who were fiercly anti english and pro german, so it was never much dwelt upon at dinnertime
What exact unit he was in has been lost to me, but i do know that he was both in North Africa and Italy, this can only mean he was with the 6th, since it was only the divisions comprising units thta had a tour of duty like that. If this is true then my grandfather was possibly at El Alamein and Monte Cassino but who knows. All stories i have are anectodes, things like being bombed by italian planes or long hikes in the Italian hills looking for Germans, so its hard to place. Ive looked at the online database for the UK servceman that includes commonwealth troops but i havent found him yet
There's a monument/graves to the soldiers who fought in the battle of Monte Cassino in Italy that was a really interesting visit. There were a lot of South Africans who died in the battle and were honored there.
I should actually transfer the photos I took there to my phone so I can post them here.
Please do!
Beautiful pictures thank you
My dad was in the 6th. Signal corps (sending and receiving morse code messages from the front to the higher ups). Wounded during the battle of Monte Cassino - bomb shrapnel to the leg. And somewhere in Italy there is (was) a man named after him. Near a small village a desperate man came to my dad's camp and begged for help as his wife was about to give birth. My dad - with minimal medical knowledge - volunteered and a healthy baby boy was born. Enrico - I hope you and your descendants are doing well.
Another little known fact it was called the 6th South African Armoured Division.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6th_Armoured_Division_%28South_Africa%29?wprov=sfla1
A good ol South African riot at the end of the war!!! "...the meeting became more violent eventually resulting in the troops trashing, looting and burning numerous Egyptian premises, blocks of shops, motor cars, bungalows and book stalls as well as one of their own messes, and broke down and looted the NAAFI store. General Poole flew in from Italy to address the troops, promising that immediate steps were to be taken to speed up the rate of repatriation. Weeks later, the subsequent court of enquiry assessed the total cost of the damages at £22,768,431.[71] "
Well I don't really blame them. There was no real plans to get them back to South Africa and a lot of them had be prisoners of war for two years or more and it's not like they could walk home. So I can only imagine how pissed off they were.
There you are. I was waiting for this comment.
Thanks for telling me, it was in the article I just misremembered it. Will correct it.
My pleasure.
Grandfather was one of them, all the medals were stolen though :(
Jesus Christ South Africa depresses me. How heartbreaking. Nothing is respected it seems.
That’s terrible:(
That really, really sucks!
I hope destiny sees them returned or at the very least end up in a museum (eventually).
Back in the day when the SA army wasn't a fucking joke
why would you wanna be actively involved in wars, wtf
You mean why would I want the SA military to well trained and equipped enough to protect the nation from threats? I'd think the answer would be obvious but considering your bos kak level of IQ in that comment of yours I'll instead recommend you to finish primary school first
from which threats lol? this aint America stop looking for wars. there are countries that have no army and are still doing well.
lol you are funny
Which country has no army and is doing well?
well, Monaco for starters.. Costa Rica to some extent
Throughout the whole of grade 8 and 9, we weren't really told of South Africa's contributions to the war. Just how Hitler was the leading factor to why the war started and that he killed himself.... The next chapter was apartheid so you know how that goes...
Any history that doesnt somehow stroke the dick of the current establishment doesnt get airtime in schools, the ANC have nothing to gain from a history where whites were anything other than spineless racist scoundrels all the time. When i went to Varsity i was shocked to realize none of my blakc classmates had a clear idea of the world wars, anglo boer wars or that there was even a difference between Afrikaners and English, its like they'd never heard of us before.
Yeah it's actually pathetic how the country has become.
Posted this in the other thread, but this is a great account of the 6th Armoured, from their training to fighting through Italy: https://www.defenceweb.co.za/resources/book-reviews/book-review-come-back-to-portofino/
My grandfather fought in Italy as well. Well I’m not so sure about the fighting part as he was an engineer drafted for building bridges for the infantry according to my gran. She said that their regiment fed Italian civilians who’s homes were destroyed in the war.
Think I'll buy that end of this month
My grandad was there. He was a bomber at the back of the B52 planes. He liked the Italian girls
I do not doubt the veracity of your comment - but it was more likely a B-17 (American) or a Lancaster (British)...
B52s are decidedly more 'modern'.
(Please don't think I'm trying to 'correct' you,I'm really not. Remembrance is close to my heart and I'm sure you'll agree it that behooves us to remember their stories as accurately as possible.
My grandfather fought in the First World War and was awarded E.K.II for his action on the Eastern Front. Luckily it didn't cost him an arm and a leg!
Just a leg.
So he missed out on WWII.)
I'm thinking u/AgentAV9913 is talking about a B25's maybe? Which did fly in the Italian theater.
[removed]
Only reason I know this is when I was young my mates Granddad had a bunch of pictures of B25's in his office because that is what he flew in Italy during WWII.
[removed]
It could be a B25, I know nothing about planes and I was a disinterested teenager when grandad was alive. I just remember his stories about sitting at the back where the bombs came out.
Although the B-25 wasn't used by South Africa, I wonder if he didn't serve in the Royal Air Force.
Both my Grandfathers (I am SA and they were both SA) fought in the Second World War, mainly Northern Africa and Italy. Grandfather on my Mothers side had this suite case with stickers from Italy on it. When we were kids (becoming teenagers etc), he told us that they were stickers of the brothels along the way. We never believed that Story
My Grandfather on my Fathers side was in the First and Second World War.
Besides the brothel story, they never really talked much about the wars.
Yep, my old man was there too...Special Service Battalion. Drove a Sherman. Passed his heavy truck license at Monza, too. A fact he always pointed out when we watched the Italian GP!
So cool. My Grandpa fought in Italy. I still have a piece of carved Italian door that is framed that he took as souvenir. He was a airforce mechanic though so was with the SA Navy.
Did not realize we played a part in ww2. Mind blowing.
We fought in East Africa, North Africa and Western Desert, the invasion of Madagascar and in Italy. With the South African Air Force making significant contributions "to the air war in East Africa, North Africa, Sicily, Italy, the Balkans and even as far east as bombing missions aimed at the Romanian oilfields in Ploiești, supply missions in support of the Warsaw uprising and reconnaissance missions ahead of the Russian advances in the Lvov-Cracow area." South Africans also volunteered for the Royal Air Force and Royal Navy.
My grandfather fought in North Africa but he never wanted to talked about it
I understand why, but it is a pity.
Mine was in Italy. He died years later before I was born, so I couldn't ever ask about it. Can't imagine it was pleasant at all.
but he never wanted to talked about it
I'll hazard a guess and say that's probably because:
"A true war story is never moral. It does not instruct, nor encourage virtue, nor suggest models of proper human behavior, nor restrain men from doing the things they have always done. If a story seems moral, do not believe it. If at the end of a war story you feel uplifted, or if you feel that some small bit of rectitude has been salvaged from the larger waste, then you have been made the victim of a very old and terrible lie. There is no rectitude whatsoever. There is no virtue. As a first rule of thumb, therefore, you can tell a true war story by its absolute and uncompromising allegiance to obscenity and evil."
From Time O'Brien's How to tell a true war story, a chapter in his seminal work The Things They Carried.
Same as my great-grandfather, took it to the grave.
Flew for the RAF, but if you don't know about him, you may want to look up "Sailor Malan".
I know of him. He led the group who scored the first confirmed British air to air kills of the war. Admittedly they were friendly kills.
"Adolph Gysbert Malan, DSO & Bar, DFC & Bar (3 October 1910 – 17 September 1963), better known as Sailor Malan, was a South African fighter pilot and flying ace in the Royal Air Force (RAF) who led No. 74 Squadron RAF during the Battle of Britain.[1] He finished his fighter career in 1941 with 27 destroyed, 7 shared destroyed and 2 unconfirmed, 3 probables and 16 damaged. At the time he was the RAF's leading ace, and one of the highest scoring pilots to have served wholly with Fighter Command during the Second World War. "
The Battle of Barking Creek was a friendly fire incident over England on 6 September 1939, resulting in the first death of a British fighter pilot in the Second World War.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Barking_Creek?wprov=sfla1
Thanks for giving me some awesome reading material for the week.
There is a very good book I own that shows the entire SAAF history.. it's called On wings of Eagles.
There are also books about South African experiences in East and North Africa and Italy.
My pleasure.
And a handful of pilots who flew in the Battle of Britain.
Indeed, many South African pilots fought in the battle of Britain. Im sure you have heard of Sailor Malan, he also fought in Korea if I'm not mistaken
I have heard of him. He did not fight in Korea. In fact he returned home to be a sheep farmer and became an anti-apartheid activist.
Thank you! TIL. My great grandfather fought in East Africa and North Africa, he did not see Italy though due to injury, he fought under Dan Pienaar
Did he want to go to Italy though to continue fighting, if he could?
Google Sailor Malan
Why does everyone keep telling me to look him up?
What’s more, the young men who fought with the British are the generation whose parents likely spent part of their childhood in British concentration camps and whose grand parents and great grand parents taught the 2nd Boer War.
Over 334,000 South Africans volunteered and served!
Is history not taught in schools anymore?
Just finished high school and we mostly studied apartheid, civil rights in the US and a bit of Cold War
The curriculum seems to have changed since I started grade 8. For example, we were taught about the Mfecane and Shakas conquests. My brother is in grade 10 now and told by his teacher that Shaka used negotiation and that the Mfecane was an Anglo/boer justification to annex land
Public school? I just can't imagine the most important event of the last century not being taught in school anymore. Especially if it excludes our involvement in it.
Private school but still had to learn the same topics. We did the world wars in grade 8 or 9 but never learnt of the South African involvement in either. Only recently learnt of the significance of Jan Smuts to the British war effort in WW2, the history of Rhodesia etc
So you know every piece of South African history?
When did I say I do? But SAs involvement in WW2 isn't exactly insignificant.
That’s insane! Wow
Ironic... no?
Funny, I've just been watching shows about different counties' forces in WWI and WWII. Both military and nursing.
My grandfather died before I was born, but according to the stories my mom tells me I suspect that he was in the 6th armoured division. My parents sold his medals when they were in serious financial trouble. Do any of you know if there is a list of names of South Africans that served in ww2 and specifically in 6th armoured?
I think the Memorable Order of Tin Hats (M.O.T.H.) will help you. Most towns should have a branch.
More posts you may like
r/southafrica
'Malema resurrected the demon of hatred, division and ethnic violence' - Steenhuisen | News24
r/southafrica
Malema chants 'kill the boer', AfriForum sees red again
r/newzealand
A New Zealander with his sniper rifle in the ruins of Cassino, during the battle for Rome. 26 March 1944.
r/CasualUK
Has anyone heard of the Battle of Bamber bridge during WW2?
r/southafrica
Slowly gaining hope
r/southafrica
Feeling grown
r/southafrica
I'm so proud!
r/Militariacollecting
The Italian Corner.
r/worldnews
World War II in Photos: The North African Campaign (45 photos)
r/southafrica
Robert Mugabe and Zimbabwe in 1962. Posting before the election.
r/OldSchoolCool
My grandfather was a POW in the Korea war, captured in 1951 lasting 29 months. This is the telegram my great grandmother received stating he was no longer MIA, but a POW
r/southafrica
Dunno who needs to hear this but....
r/southafrica
Legendary Sugar Man singer Rodriguez, 81, has died | Life
r/southafrica
The "new anthem" premiere
r/southafrica
Crazy thing happened in Cape Town!!
r/movies
What WW2 movies are about captured Axis soldiers in American POW camps?
r/southafrica
‘Kill the Boer’ Song Fuels Backlash in South Africa and U.S.
r/southafrica
RIP to a part of my childhood
r/southafrica
Afrikaans Elephants
r/southafrica
South Korean Guy living in Cape Town
r/southafrica
I'd support this political party
r/southafrica
Veteran journalist Derek Watts dies | News24
r/southafrica
Power line in Bushbuckridge, Mpumalanga 📍
r/southafrica
Tributes paid to British surgeon killed during protests in Cape Town | UK news
r/southafrica