Taxpayers brace for £100bn money-printing bill – as George Osborne says it's 'not my responsibility'. Ex-chancellor’s decision to transfer QE profits to the Treasury has come back to bite Hunt : r/ukpolitics Skip to main content

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Taxpayers brace for £100bn money-printing bill – as George Osborne says it's 'not my responsibility'. Ex-chancellor’s decision to transfer QE profits to the Treasury has come back to bite Hunt

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The price of running a funny money economy for all those years. Borrow, print money and use it to inflate house prices. Then watch lots of property porn on the TV, while smug people at dinner parties said my house is earning more than me.

Oh the next generation locked out of the big party? Forced to rent, at the mercy of landlords, whose future has been destroyed? F*ck them, it is for the good of the nation and the wider economy.

Alas the wheels are now coming off the joke none economy model and all our elites can do is have a massive tantrum. Demanding the Bank of England lower interest rates, with all the dignity of a toddler denied another slice of cake.

Of course if we had invested all that printed money on infrastructure and the wealth generating economy, instead of pissing it away inflating house prices. We would be in a much better position.

George Osborne and the tories have destroyed this country

u/swores avatar

And the current lot in power just continue making it worse and worse - arguably Sunak & co. would be even more harmful to the country than Cameron and Osborne were except for the fact that they're so idiotically incompetent they're not actually able to inflict as much harm as their ideas otherwise would if they were skilled politicians.

u/SquintyBrock avatar

That’s f*cking hilarious! You think this lot are more incompetent than just call me Dave and omnishambles Osbourne… the only team worse than them was Mrs Lettuces.

Cameron and Osborne at least had a plan.

It was a stupid plan, but it displayed some cognitive ability in the sense that it's proof they talked about things.

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u/hu6Bi5To avatar

Osborne wasn't even the worst.

Osborne went with it for the first three years, because of all the reasons the parent comment so eloquently explained. But he also saw the problems it would cause, so in his final couple of years as chancellor he started to make better decisions (like abolishing tax relief for landlords, etc.) but he never got to see those through because Theresa May fired him.

Subsequent chancellors haven't even tried any mitigation. They've made everything worse. E.g. the 2020 Stamp Duty Holiday removed the narrow advantage that First Time Buyers had compared with others.

Just ramp everything to infinity.

I am looking forward to seeing Labour-brand policy in this area, it's one of the many areas they've been very cagy about. They have promised some other changes for Stamp Duty (mainly around holiday lets and overseas buyers), but that's about it so far. Those changes are arguably smaller magnitude than the Stamp Duty back-and-forth that's already happened multiple times.

Basically anything short of a full Land Value Tax will not address the root-cause (as per the parent comment). It's just a question of how far short we fall and what unintended consequences that brings.

Winds me up him on podcasts with Ed Balls having a laugh like all his decisions haven't fucked us

u/minecraftmedic avatar

Ho ho ho, what a lark this austerity business is!

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u/Whatisausern avatar

Despite it being a bit on the nose I actually think this is the only way you could possibly run a country. You can't dwell too much as the burden is too large. Very interesting thing to think about, really.

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It's terrifying if you look at how much money wealth earns in the UK now. Once you've got that first million behind you it's just going to snowball from there, out earning even the best paid professionals. We're in a situation where someone's grandparent who was a cleaner is now out earning doctors, lawyers, software developers in asset appreciation and pension.

u/spicesucker avatar

Income from the average UK full time salary (working 37.5 hours a week) is £35,000. 

 Income from having £1m spread across a few 5% interest savings accounts - and doing literally nothing else - is £50,000. 

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u/The_Incredible_b3ard avatar

Or just give it to people to spend in the real economy

u/SPXGHOST avatar

if we had invested all that printed money

That’s not how QE works. The central bank buys bonds with that money, which lowers rates, easing financial conditions for business.

house prices

Help me understand what the hell you’re talking about please

u/hu6Bi5To avatar
Edited

The central bank buys bonds with that money, which lowers rates, easing financial conditions for business.

..

house prices

Help me understand what the hell you’re talking about please

Follow your own logic through. Eased financial conditions lower borrowing costs, making for cheaper mortgages and hence higher house prices.

This was sold to us at the time as a boon to normal people, but it wasn't then and it certainly isn't now. Because access to mortgages in the first place was far from equitable as it relied on: collateral, credit worthiness, etc.

Basically it was just a lever for the already well-off to get even more well-off, and those who fell short were left behind.

Fast forward fifteen years and that gap is now massive and explains, well... broadly gestures at everything

If you restrict lending through higher interest rates, the house building industry collapses. https://bcis.co.uk/news/latest-uk-housing-starts-and-completions-figures/

The issue isn't liquidity, the issue is supply. We need to build more houses. Higher interest rates lead to fewer houses being built, it's exactly the wrong policy.

u/hu6Bi5To avatar

For any stimulus to house building brought about by cheaper credit, it was outweighed by restrictive planning. That cheaper credit just resulted in bidding-up existing stock.

There's a million cheaper ways we can stimulate building more directly.

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u/csppr avatar

In our current system that is. The same system that didn’t build enough housing during the near/zero interest rate days.

The UK is a bit of an outlier, in that house building is done almost exclusively by large developers, as opposed to eg many EU countries in which ~50% of houses are built by owner-occupiers. The latter isn’t nearly as reliant on interest rate setting (though it obviously still is).

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u/SPXGHOST avatar

Ok, but central banks didn’t ease to lower mortgage rates; we were facing a collapse of the world economy.

u/hu6Bi5To avatar

They certainly did pro-actively push for lower mortgage rates. The BoE for many years operated a Term Funding Scheme to make sure that retail interest rates fell to a level closer to the Bank Rate.

E.g.: https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/-/media/boe/files/quarterly-bulletin/2018/term-funding-scheme-web-version.pdf

The Scheme appears to have achieved its primary objective with evidence suggesting that the reduction in Bank Rate was passed on to lower lending rates on loans such as mortgages, without significant compression in lenders’ net interest margins or the supply of credit to the economy.

The Bank of England saw lowering mortgage rates as their business, and were continuing to proactively push-down mortgage rates as recently as 2018.

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u/whyamisowise avatar

QE increases the demand for bonds which pushes up their price. There is an inverse relationship between bond prices and bond yields so when the prices rise, the yields fall.

Falling bond yields encourage investors to move their money into other assets (e.g property). The Bank of England are completely transparent about the link between QE and asset prices.

And with regards to the fact that QE couldn't be/hasn't been used to fund government spending, that's also wrong. 

For every bond the Central Bank buys from a commercial bank/pension fund, that gives them liquidity to buy another (to lend the government). 

The amount of government debt bought through QE during covid (£400bn) was exactly equal to the amount of new debt issued. So while QE wasn't directly financing the government, it definitely was freeing to the private sector's ability to do so.

u/SPXGHOST avatar

Ok, you have a good understanding, but then surely you appreciate the alternative? Higher yields mean higher mortgages. The net positives of QE are obvious.

u/whyamisowise avatar
Edited

I think Nick MacPherson made a nice analogy when he said QE is like heroin and subject to diminishing returns. It may well have been necessary as a response to the financial crisis but the Central Bank got hooked. https://twitter.com/nickmacpherson2/status/899653516196761600?t=Ltp2FH767wze1REm8CDnvw&s=19 In Osborne's desperation to reduce the deficit (his austerity clearly wasn't working as quickly as intended), he took the QE profits that should have been put aside to cover the losses we're currently experiencing (and will continue to experience until rates fall below 2%).

Edit: As though that wasn't bad enough, Sunak failed to insure us against the rising bond yields on our inflation linked bonds after previous chancellors had chosen riskier 'Linkers' rather than fixed rate bonds.

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u/ThinkAboutThatFor1Se avatar

Sigh, I know they didn't literally fire up a printing press but the result is effectively the same.

One of the stated aims of QE was to increase the price of assets, including house prices.

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House prices would have risen regardless as it's mostly demand Vs supply

u/nostril_spiders avatar

Of course if we had invested all that printed money on infrastructure and the wealth generating economy, instead of pissing it away inflating house prices. We would be in a much better position.

100%

The price of running a funny money economy for all those years.

I don't fully agree. It is fantastic to have the ability to borrow against the future. The problem is how we behave when we get out of the doldrums, and we fucked up badly there.

u/SquintyBrock avatar

It wasn’t “pissed away on inflating house prices”, I’m not sure where you got that from? It as pissed away mostly inflating commodities and stock prices.

You're partially right, it was used to inflate other asset bubbles but were you're wrong is to assume the housing market isn't an asset bubble.

u/SquintyBrock avatar

I wasn’t saying the housing market wasn’t or isn’t an asset bubble, just that QE policy did not seem to have any appreciable effect on it.

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Of course if we had invested all that printed money on infrastructure and the wealth generating economy, instead of pissing it away inflating house prices. We would be in a much better position.

Wouldn't happen anyway because of the NIMBY infestation .

u/imjustafactorygal avatar

Borrow, print money and use it to inflate house prices

Thank you to the tories.

u/Prestigious_Risk7610 avatar

I agree with much of this but the below is incorrect.

Of course if we had invested all that printed money on infrastructure and the wealth generating economy, instead of pissing it away inflating house prices.

QE was needed because we had a huge structural budget deficit. That devalues the currency and inflates real asset prices as a side effect.

Investing in infrastructure would have been better...but that would have required a lot more austerity.

Keynesian economics make sense, but the problem is no government ever runs a budget surplus in boom times.

Why would it have require more austerity? When we were in a situation were we could magic up money out of nothing without creating inflation?

Building infrastructure would have stimulated the economy, created economic activity and at worse left us no worse off than we are now.

What do we have to show from years of austerity and financial woo from the Central Banks?

A load of asset bubbles, that will implode and a mountain of debt.

u/Prestigious_Risk7610 avatar

Why would it have require more austerity?

If you want to invest more then you either need to tax more, spend less or grow. Growth was falling, having been at the end of a boom. Tax was diminishing, we had a deficit even during the boom period, so when the bust came it turned into a huge deficit because tax revenues fell. Borrowing more wasn't an option as we already had a 10%+ budget deficit. We potentially could have done more QE to temporarily fund more borrowing but that would have been a bad idea, exacerbating further the problems QE caused. So that leaves cutting spending.

When we were in a situation were we could magic up money out of nothing without creating inflation?

It did create inflation, just in real assets, rather than in consumer goods. That's why house prices rose so strongly as you rightly mention.

Building infrastructure would have stimulated the economy, created economic activity

Yes, it would, but you still need to pay for it upfront, we couldn't without more QE (with more negative effects) or more austerity.

What do we have to show from years of austerity and financial woo from the Central Banks?

A load of asset bubbles, that will implode and a mountain of debt.

Exactly. This is the problem of running a deficit in boom times, it means we're fucked when bad times come. That's not a party political point by the way, both main parties are to blame.

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It's amazing how the government has managed to pass the blame onto landlords for thier inability to build enough houses. And how they provide no other safe way to make your savings work for you.

In the past you could have put your money in a savings account. But no more. Yet with smoke and mirrors the government has managed to get everyone blaming the, "evil landlords."

u/0110-0-10-00-000 avatar

Criticism of landlords isn't new and it's hardly undeserved, even if the intensity is the highest it's ever been.

Your point?

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u/Groot746 avatar

Oh yes, the poor poor landlords

Tell me, does blaming landlords help you much? Are all forms of rental services evil, or just property?

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u/LikelyHungover avatar

Found the land leech.

“Provide me with a risk free investment or I’ll rent seek”

It would be funny if it wasn’t so pathetic

Congrats on outing yourself as one of the sheep.

The sheep? Landlords that use buy to let mortgages are a scourge and absolutely have encouraged house prices to rise well above a sustainable level. But, of course, it's the government's responsibility to regulate it

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u/Traditional_Gur_9033 avatar

Have you tried not being a landlord?

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I blame the government and the landlords. Don't need a one or the other situation.

So landlords doesnt be allowed to make money is what you're saying?

u/phatboi23 avatar

They're one and the same a lot of the time.

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u/kriptonicx avatar

You might not be fully understanding how monetary system works. The BoE don't really "print money" via QE.

From the sounds of it what I think you basically wanted was for the government to have easy access to cheap money from the BoE (so they could invest), but not consumers or businesses (other you get asset inflation). That isn't possible. While the government could have borrowed even more money to invest in HS2 on other money burning schemes that would have only made our current situation worse. But even if you take a charitable view that government spending would have been spent productively what you're asking for still would have resulted in asset inflation because there's not way to reducing borrowing costs just for the government.

I might be misunderstanding what you're saying though. If you feel I'm misrepresenting you please correct me.

I think you're the one who doesn't understand how QE really worked. It was literally printing money. OK the mechanism was more complex than that, with the BofE creating new reserves to purchase financial assets.

This was effectively handing money to the very institutions that had crashed the economy in the first place. Hoping that they would stimulate economic growth. In reality they simply used it to create asset bubbles.

There was no reason why such a scheme couldn't have been modified to fund infrastructure projects. Via the government or governmental control of banks that were nationalised after the crash.

Letting the bankers pointlessly inflate asset bubbles was a deliberate policy choice.

u/kriptonicx avatar

I think you're the one who doesn't understand how QE really worked. It was literally printing money. OK the mechanism was more complex than that, with the BofE creating new reserves to purchase financial assets.

It's not literally money printing because the "money printed" from QE is not spendable in the real economy. If you understand this and want to call it "money printing" anyway then that's fine, I guess I just find it misleading because its very different from actually printing money and handing it to say the government or the private sector – I think that's what is implied when people call QE "money printing".

I tried to explain why it's not right to call it "money printing" in another comment a while ago if you're interested, https://www.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/1bo9hip/unwinding_british_qe_may_end_up_costing_100bn/kwpu2g4/

This was effectively handing money to the very institutions that had crashed the economy in the first place. Hoping that they would stimulate economic growth. In reality they simply used it to create asset bubbles.

Again, I think you're misunderstanding. QE didn't directly make banks richer – it's not like the BoE printed money then went to the banks saying, "here's some free cash to spend how you like". The BoE via QE simply made banks more willing to lend – which to your point can create asset bubbles if the money being lent out isn't going anywhere productive. It was one of the reasons I was extremely critical of Covid era economic policy because it was so clearly going to benefit the wealthy at the expense of the poor. I'm certainly not in favour of excessive intervention from central banks.

There was no reason why such a scheme couldn't have been modified to fund infrastructure projects. Via the government or governmental control of banks that were nationalised after the crash.

Banks buy government debt already... Are you suggesting they should lend the government on more favourable terms because that's only going to cause financial harm to the banks the tax payer just poured billions into nationalising.

Ironically I think what you want here is actual money printing. Eg, instead of doing QE, the BoE just prints money then just hands it to the government to spend in the real economy.

Also, I think people here often see infrastructure spending as some kind of silver bullet of economic policy when in reality it's very hard for developed countries to get decent return out of significant infrastructure spending. We don't live in the early 1900s anymore. Building motorways, the grid, and power plants were massively beneficial to productivity back then. We shouldn't expect slightly faster railways and a few more wind turbines to dramatically improve the state of our economy today. I'm not saying that those projects don't make economic sense, but our economic problems are probably not going to be solved by the government borrowing more money for projects like HS2.

u/SorcerousSinner avatar

QE is the central bank buying government bonds from pensions funds and other institutions. So it's effectively financing government spending, through the middleman of these institutions.

Infrastructure investments could've been pursued by governments. Why didn't they? Of course, as HS2 shows, only on reddit is infrastructure investment an automatic big win. In reality, it depends on project and resource management skills.

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u/bananagrabber83 avatar

This is far, far worse than Gordon Brown ‘selling the gold’ but because the optics of the latter are very easy for simpletons to grasp the QE fiasco won’t have anything like the same kind of long-lasting cultural impact.

I'm more concerned of the meer thousands Angela Raynor has got away with. £100bn is too big a number for me. I like to worry about 1000's!

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u/CaravanOfDeath avatar

Article text:

George Osborne has insisted a money-printing spree that is set to cost the taxpayer £100bn seemed “sensible at the time”.

The former chancellor said quantitative easing, under which the Bank of England created £895bn of money to buy bonds, “was a necessary policy to get us out of the financial crash, and contributed to the fastest recovery of any G7 economy”.

He added that it was “not my responsibility” to oversee the present status of the scheme, which is costing the Exchequer tens of billions of pounds because of an agreement with the Bank that losses should be borne by the taxpayer.

The policy began in the financial crisis, holding down borrowing costs for the government, injecting liquidity into financial markets and, initially, making a profit for the Bank.

In 2012 Osborne transferred profits from the scheme to the Treasury, lowering the Exchequer’s borrowing requirements – but agreeing, as part of this deal, to also bear the weight of any losses in future.

However, higher interest rates and lower bond values mean the Bank is now losing money on the scheme.

As a result, in the past year the Treasury has transferred £44bn to the Bank to cover the losses. The Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR) expects an overall net cost to the public purse of more than £100bn.

Osborne said QE was vital in the wake of the financial crisis.

Asked about the losses being made on the scheme, he said: “It was sensible at the time, and remains… it was a necessary policy to get us out of the financial crash, and contributed to the fastest recovery of any G7 economy.

“It was all part of a plan that convinced the world Britain had got its act together.

“The Treasury and Parliament at the time assessed all the eventualities. Of course there were gains for the Exchequer back then.

“I can’t speak for the current situation – that is not my responsibility any more.”

Conservative MPs are demanding that the current chancellor, Jeremy Hunt, reassesses the system and pushes the Bank of England to stop selling bonds at a loss.

Greg Smith, chairman of Conservative Way Forward, said: “It’s not at all clear why the Bank is choosing to sell billions of pounds worth of bonds a year into the market, taking larger losses than would be incurred if they simply held them to maturity.

“The chancellor is not powerless to stop this. The Treasury is the ultimate guarantor – in fact this is something the Bank of England insisted upon. The Bank of England views itself as a mere agent of the Treasury in this regard. Therefore the chancellor can have an influence on when these bonds are sold.”

Danny Kruger, an MP on the Treasury Select Committee, said Hunt should step in.

“As the Treasury – the taxpayer – has undertaken to guarantee these losses, the chancellor should have an influence on when these bonds are sold. It makes little sense to generate such huge losses, when those losses would be minimised if they were held to maturity,” he said.

The costs come at the worst possible moment for Hunt, who is grappling to cut taxes, boost defence spending, support the NHS and hit his borrowing targets.

His goal is to get the national debt falling as a share of GDP in five years’ time. He is on course to do that, the OBR estimates, by a margin of just £8.9bn.

The scale of QE losses is very sensitive to the path of interest rates in the coming years, which means the chancellor’s headroom to hit that target is vulnerable to minor moves in financial markets.

It is also a threat to Labour. The party has promised sound finances should it win the upcoming general election. However, like Hunt, it finds itself vulnerable to the whims of financial markets which can throw QE costs up or down by tens of billions of pounds.

To understand how a scheme meant to keep borrowing costs down ended up costing so much, it is necessary to look back to 2009 when QE was first used in Britain.

In the teeth of the financial crisis, the Bank of England cut interest rates from 5.75pc to 0.5pc. But this was not enough and officials, led at the time by Mervyn King, wanted to do more.

Taking its lead from the Federal Reserve in the US, the Bank of England agreed with Alistair Darling, then chancellor, that it would launch a programme of QE – creating money and buying bonds to loosen up financial markets and further lower borrowing costs.

Darling said the Treasury would indemnify the Bank against any losses on the asset purchase facility (APF) in what was seen as a radical decision.

Officials referred to it as “unconventional policy”. More colloquially it was described as the “nuclear option”.

Darling authorised up to £150bn of purchases. “In these highly uncertain times, there are merits to stimulating the economy through a variety of different channels,” he said.

This was rapidly used up, so he signed off more. By the end of the year QE reached £200bn.

This scale creep was a sign of things to come.

Initially seen as a short-term emergency response, it became a regular tool of monetary policy, under Mark Carney and then Andrew Bailey at the Bank. Successive chancellors signed off the moves and underwrote the QE expansions, including Osborne, Phillip Hammond and Rishi Sunak.

As it became clear QE was becoming permanent, an opportunity arose.

In 2012, Osborne, in the midst of his drive to bring the deficit down, spotted a giant pile of cash building up at the Bank of England.

The bonds it had bought – amounting to £375bn by the end of that year – were generating a significant income.

The government gilts it bought paid interest into the APF’s coffers. The Bank only paid out the base rate of 0.5pc on the money it had created to buy them. The margin between the two was profit, and the chancellor wanted it for the public finances.

“As the scale and likely duration of the scheme has increased significantly since its inception, it makes sense to normalise the cash management arrangements,” Osborne wrote to King in 2012.

“Holding large amounts of cash in the APF is inefficient.”

George Osborne and Mervyn King George Osborne wrote to Mervyn King in 2012 to say leaving cash in the Bank's asset purchase facility was 'inefficient' CREDIT: Alastair Grant - WPA Pool / Getty Images The Bank started paying over the cash every quarter, and by the time Osborne left Number 11, more than £65bn had been transferred to the Exchequer.

The possibility of future losses was acknowledged – “at some stage it is likely that the cash flows from the APF to HM Treasury will need to be reversed,” Osborne wrote – but they were not considered worrying. The Treasury could make good the cost later.

Taking the cash would not affect those ultimate losses, but it affected the timing of borrowing, the OBR said, holding it down in the short-term and raising it again whenever those losses materialised.

Eight years later, the pandemic put QE on steroids. Threadneedle Street cut the base rate to 0.1pc and bought £200bn of bonds as fast as possible in Andrew Bailey’s first week as governor.

“I am prepared to take whatever further action is necessary to support the economy through the economic crisis,” Sunak, who had just taken over as chancellor, wrote as he extended the indemnity.

QE rose again and again, reaching a peak of £895bn and by late 2022, the Bank had paid £123.9bn in profit to the Treasury under Osborne’s scheme.

But by this stage, interest rates were rising and the Bank had started selling some of its bonds. When interest rates rise, bond prices fall, so it sold gilts for less than it paid for them.

Suddenly the Bank was making a loss. Since its profits had gone to the Treasury, it lacked a significant cash buffer and had to call on the government to stump up.

The OBR expects the Treasury to have to send as much as £10bn per quarter to Threadneedle Street for the foreseeable future.

So far those net profits have been whittled down to around £75bn – if Osborne had not taken the cash, then Hunt would not today be paying money over to the Bank.

The OBR predicts a net loss of more than £100bn by mid-2032, but this could be £50bn higher or lower depending on the path of interest rates.

The Bank argues that its job is not to focus on the cost: it sets policy to meet its inflation target, and besides, says QE boosted the economy and so helped the public finances, despite the cash losses on the bonds.

“The fiscal implications of QE and QT are not simply captured by cashflows between the APF and HMT, but also through the wider impact of the policy on financial conditions and the economy,” the Bank of England said in response to questions from the Treasury Select Committee.

QE “reduced borrowing costs, lowered unemployment, supported the economy and helped stem disinflationary pressures at various points over the past 15 years”, it said.

The Treasury says it cannot intervene in monetary policy without risking worse consequences for the economy.

“The separation of fiscal and monetary policy is a key feature of the UK’s economic framework, and essential for the effective delivery of monetary policy,” a spokesman said.

“That is why it is vital the Government underwrites the Bank of England’s asset purchases so it can meet its monetary policy objectives, including returning inflation to 2pc.”

u/Torres6928 avatar

Can anyone explain why the government has to fund the mark to market losses on the bonds?

My understanding was that these bonds are held to maturity, so don’t bear a loss at all. The article implies that the BofE is selling these bonds in the open market for a loss, however that’s not a cash outflow that needs to be funded, it’s just a relative cost. Cash is still returned to the bank for the bonds it’s just less that what they paid originally. Why does the taxpayer need to cover the accounting (not cash) loss?

u/hu6Bi5To avatar

It's because they're not being held to maturity. They're being sold sooner than that, at a loss, to reduce the money supply as part of the plan to bring inflation under control.

Cash is still returned to the bank for the bonds it’s just less that what they paid originally. Why does the taxpayer need to cover the accounting (not cash) loss?

The article explains that one. It was the other-side of the deal that saw the BoE hand the profits from the QE programme to the government. The deal was it would be cost-neutral to the bank, they would neither profit nor lose from it.

That isn't necessary. But it makes sense if you want everything to be fully accounted for.

If (for example) you issue £100bn of new money to buy bonds, but then sell them for £75bn. That's a permanent increase in £25bn of central bank money in circulation forever. The BoE could choose to keep that money in circulation indefinitely by not selling the bonds, but if it sold at a loss they'd forever lose the ability to control that £25bn.

So the agreement was, in order for the BoE to sell bonds early to reduce the money supply, the government would pay the shortfall.

For some reason, the MMT people like Richard Murphy are furious about this. But you'd think they'd be delighted, the government is essentially taxing money out-of-existance to control inflation, exactly as MMT doctrine says should happen.

u/Torres6928 avatar

Thanks for the clear explanation.

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Because the concept is that the money generated at the time the bonds were created needs to be returned.

The treasury have to make up the difference on the MtM so that the money created is still effectively destroyed.

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If only they used it to build infrastructure

u/toomanyplantpots avatar
Edited

💯

Just one example of the economic nonsense of the austerity era was cancelling the home insulation grant program.

Had it been kept, it would have:

Created jobs and be a feeder into other sectors of the economy.

Reduced household spending on energy bills, leaving more money in people’s pockets (cost of living).

When the energy prices spiked it would have reduced the £bns the government borrowed to subsidise household energy bills (I think the government borrowed £150bn).

Would have reduced inflation due to less household income being spent on energy.

Would have reduced our dependence on overseas energy supplies.

Reduced our nation’s carbon emissions.

We would have seen a big return on investment.

But no, clever Osborne cut them with one swipe of his austerity pen.

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u/toomanyplantpots avatar
Edited

Another Torygraph article not 100% behind the Tories?

This time critical of current Tory economic policy and Osborne’s economic policy (QE) going back to 2010.

It even admits that Labour will face economic challenges left by the Tories if they win the general election.

Starmer would do well to quote some of this back to the Tory front bench at PMQs, and watch their smug faces drop.

Not behind a paywall either.

What are the Torygraph up to? I wonder if part of this is a growth strategy to gain new readers (subscriptions), is it just a coincidence that these articles are not behind a paywall? With their core readership being older demographic… they are looking to get more subscribers. And with a potential sale of the rag just around the corner.

u/hu6Bi5To avatar

If this article is your benchmark, the Telegraph has never been 100% behind the Tories. They've never liked QE as a policy.

u/toomanyplantpots avatar
Edited

I have to admit, I’m not a subscriber to the Torygraph, but whenever I have seen their articles either in print or online or their journalists have appeared on TV, they were 100% aligned with Tory policy, and they were supportive of Osborne and his policies.

I hadn’t realised they were against QE? If they were, then may be they should and could have been a bit more vocal about it, like they have been on a number of other things (e.g. Boris’ parties - they were vocally 100% supportive of them - but may be that’s because their journalists were invited / attended them).

u/hu6Bi5To avatar

They're definitely not pro-Labour either, I think they'd still prefer a Tory government. But they've been very critical on most Tory policies for ever basically. Usually for not being Tory enough.

In 2020 they hated lockdowns. (They weren't particularly happy about "party gate" either, but didn't hold lockdowns in the same degree of reverence as others so they were more annoyed about the double-standards than the specifics.)

Before 2016 (when the Tories were ostensibly pro-EU), the Telegraph was anti-EU, etc.

They're consistently anti-immigration despite the Tory government massively increasing immigration.

Their editorial stance can be almost entirely explained by "The Conservative Party would be more popular were it actually Conservative".

I think the recent trend of people spotting critical articles in the Telegraph is mainly just pre-election excitement. "Well, if they've lost the Torygraph they've lost everyone!" that kind of thing. Not really, it's just the usual editorial standards. (The Tories will still lose the election though, nothing's going to change that now.)

u/toomanyplantpots avatar
Edited

“They're definitely not pro-Labour either, I think they'd still prefer a Tory government. But they've been very critical on most Tory policies for ever basically. Usually for not being Tory enough”

I agree.

“In 2020 they hated lockdowns. (They weren't particularly happy about "party gate" either, but didn't hold lockdowns in the same degree of reverence as others so they were more annoyed about the double-standards than the specifics.)”

Yes they hated lockdowns but I never saw or read any criticism of the Boris’ parties. I saw their political journalists defending them though, and then when asked, admitted to attending events (or were invited too) at Downing Street. It wouldn’t surprise me if they were fined too.

“Before 2016 (when the Tories were ostensibly pro-EU), the Telegraph was anti-EU, etc.”

I didn’t think there was an official party position? I know Cameron was pro-EU, but I think most Tory MPs and the Tory party membership were for Brexit.

“They're consistently anti-immigration despite the Tory government massively increasing immigration.”

But their policy isn’t to increase immigration, it’s to reduce it.

“Their editorial stance can be almost entirely explained by "The Conservative Party would be more popular were it actually Conservative".”

Agree.

“I think the recent trend of people spotting critical articles in the Telegraph is mainly just pre-election excitement. "Well, if they've lost the Torygraph they've lost everyone!" that kind of thing. Not really, it's just the usual editorial standards. (The Tories will still lose the election though, nothing's going to change that now.)”

But there has been a change in their output? It’s not just people’s perception.

What the reasons are for this, I don’t know? It could be entirely commercial, the current owners want readership numbers up, to get more in the sale of the paper, and this is part of that strategy. Appealing mainly to a demographic which is gradually going, isn’t a good growth strategy.

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u/anomalous_cowherd avatar

I agree, when I see them not standing behind the Tories it's generally because they want to push things that are more right wing than the Tories dare to do.

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They’re generating press for the Conservative Way Forward far right faction, led by that shitbag Danny Kruger.

u/toomanyplantpots avatar

Please can you explain for the unenlightened (like myself)?

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u/cthomp88 avatar

The Telegraph is more 'the current crop of Conservatives are not right wing enough' than anything else.

I can get the Sunday Telegraph for free through my local library on my tablet. They are unhinged.

Torygraph has never really liked this voodoo banking tbf

u/toomanyplantpots avatar
Edited

May be, but they weren’t very vocal about this at the time and seemed to be 100% supportive of Osborne and his economic policies - to them he was wonder boy.

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Another Torygraph article not 100% behind the Tories?

They've been after the Tory gov since Truss was ditched.

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The fiscally responsible party.... that's a lot of debt to carry for an institution that isn't under full government control.

It is, of course, the tip of the iceberg... there is enough money, it's just squandered on crap like this.

u/hu6Bi5To avatar

The bonds are an asset to the Bank of England, but a debt to the government.

The whole point of the "deal" was to enable the Bank of England to sell the bonds at the right time for controlling inflation, rather than the time that would have been cost neutral or profitable for them (because that would almost certainly be at a time of low inflation when further disinflation would be unhelpful).

isn't under full government control

Well changing that is one of the ways to "fix" this problem. If the BoE wasn't independent and just did what the government told it to do then we wouldn't have any of this.

But that's not consequence free either. A central bank cannot go bankrupt, but it making a paper "loss" is basically it losing control of monetary policy, it means there'd be no way it could get back the QE money it added in the first place.

Other than the government giving it money to destroy of course... but that's what is going on in this article so we're back to square one again.

u/Fixyourback avatar

You’d be licking rocks for sustenance if the government controlled the BoE. As an aside, yeah there’s an infinite amount of money as this is literally an article on QE. 

Yup, infinite money as long as it's going to the right place. Going elsewhere, "We broke."

u/Fixyourback avatar

I wish more people understood this. When it’s pensions, banking, or housing having a wobble it’s full steam ahead with the printing press. When it’s wages not meeting said inevitable inflation you get every armchair economist moaning about how we are going to pay for it. 

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I find it quite amusing that inflation and COL crisis is always blamed on Covid or war while everyone forgets trillions printed by Fed and BOE that are the reason why we are deep in it now.

u/Ornery_Tie_6393 avatar

Yeah, covid was the catalyst, the inflation is a decade in the making. 

The red sea, brexit and Ukraine has some impact. But its fairly minor compared to QE hitting the market.

That 10% inflation we saw was all QE coming home to roost as the developed world's money printing programs resolved.

u/hu6Bi5To avatar

It was much worse than 10% in total.

The CPI index (baseline 100 in 2015) was 108.6 before the Covid QE kicked off (March 2020). By December 2023 it was 132.2. (Source: ONS)

Prices are permanently 21.7% higher than before. If inflation had been at target, this would be just over 8%.

The M3 money supply in March 2020 was 2.9tn. In Q4 2024 it was 3.47tn, slightly down from its peak. (Source: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MABMM301GBQ189S). Or 19%.

The similarity between those two numbers is not a coincidence.

The correlation between those two numbers also applies to US and Eurozone stats too. (The more money printing, the higher inflation. Currencies with less money printing inflated less.)

Yet you still see people falling over themselves to deny the link. Mainly, I suspect, for political reasons; they wish to see more money-printing to fund wholesale government programmes.

The problem is, that might be the only way to achieve any future government goals. But without a plan to deal with the inevitable inflation they're going to fail.

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u/parachute--account avatar

The USA also used quantitative easing post 2008, at a much higher absolute level, in total $3 trillion. However they did not strangle their economy with austerity measures in the way the UK did, together with the cataclysm of Brexit, and the US economy has emerged in vastly better shape than the UK's.

It's a multifactorial issue but the centerpiece is the ideology of the conservative party backed up by their incompetence in government.

https://mainlymacro.blogspot.com/2024/04/the-anatomy-and-reasons-for-uk-relative.html

the yanks are in a advantaged position with reserve currency and the petrodollar so they can export their inflation to some extent

but what happens when them dollars come home?

u/toomanyplantpots avatar

💯

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u/exileon21 avatar

Also interesting to note that Asian countries did no QE in Covid and have had no inflation problem, so clearly it wasn’t all down to supply chain issues as the MMT crowd tell us

trillions printed by Fed

and still printing. the yanks are adding $30 per person per day

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This is why I always laugh when someone, typically my parents, say there is no magic money tree. There literally is, and it's produced almost a trillion pounds in the last decade and a half. The magic money trees in the US, UK, Japan (and maybe eurozone?) have created about £24 trillion (maybe $?)...
All of it goes to the banks to "stimulate the economy" and trickle down. Imagine what would happen if that money actually found it's way to the hands of the public and small businesses, all buying taxed goods and growing respectively.

The money did reach the public and small businesses though. The issue is that artificial credit only simulates businesses to succeed in an artificial credit environment.

I.e. low growth, low productivity and businesses designed to fail outside the artificial environment.

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I'm sorry. The telegraph was all for this at the time. Branded Osborne a genius.