Angharad ferch Llywelyn (fl. 1260

) was a daughter of Llywelyn ab Iorwerth, Prince of Wales.

Title: Welsh Genealogies AD 300-1400
Author: Peter Clement Bartrum
Publication: 8 Vols. Cardiff, 1974, microfiche edition, 1980
Page: Rhys ap Tewdwr 4, p.779. Gruffudd ap Cynan 4, p.446

givers her mother as Joan Plantagenet of England is this poassable

This identification is very late..no contemporary evidence shows support as to the correct mother of Angharad being the illegitamate daughter of King John.

Cheers,
--JC

I don't know where you got this citation, but it seems to be inaccurate. According to an article by the late William Addams Reitwiesner in the very first issue of "The Genealogist" in Spring 1980, Bartrum's Welsh Genealogies doesn't specify a mother for either of the two daughters of Llywelyn ab Iorwerth named Angharad. In addition to Bartrum, WAR's article lists several other sources which don't list the mother of the Angharad you're interested in. I can't presently access the online image of the Bartrum table in question here, but I have no reason to doubt WAR's finding on this, as he was a very careful genealogist and was much more familiar with Bartrum's work than most American genealogists at the time.

The site seems to be acting up - half the time it takes me where I want to go, the other half I get an error page. Still, I found one of the cited pages:

http://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/handle/2160/5112

As it turns out, this image does identify the mothers, although it appears to be in a later hand than that which drew the chart. Here is the problem though. He shows Llewelyn with two daughters of this name, one the daughter of Joan, the other not specified. The initiator of this thread will have to specify which Angharad is of interest here.

(And I will again remind people that Bartrum was an editor, not a genealogist, per se. He was trying to represent what the Welsh pedigrees showed, not necessarily the authentic relationships.)

taf

OK, found the other:

http://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/handle/2160/5655

taf

Thanks, Todd, for trying to get to these tables - and succeeding!! Yes, the site has been flaky for the last couple of days, although I've now been able to access the links you provided - the first success I've had in a few days.

The original poster cited both of the tables you've now located, which tells me that the Angharad in question is the one who married Maelgwn Ieuanc ap Maelgwn Hen - not the other Angharad, whose spouse is noted on Gruffudd ap Cynan 4 as appearing on a different table than Rhys ap Tewdyr 4. The first Angharad is the one whose mother may (or may not) be Joan Plantagenet.

It's not clear what version of the Bartrum tables WAR was using to reach his conclusions in 1980, which is what I was reporting. But I'm guessing that it was the version published, in book form and/or microfiche, in the 1970s and/or 1980s. I recall that the website for the Bartrum project mentioned that the images scanned there include revisions that he made after the original publications, all the way until he died. So these probably would not have been available to WAR at the time of his 1980 article.

So the notations in "a later hand" could very probably be those of Bartrum himself. Actually I think in this case there may well be TWO revisions, as I could see reading the note as "not (1)". In other words, he added the "(1)" to indicate Joan as the mother, and then later added the "not" to cancel out Joan as the mother and return to his original conclusion. This is admittedly speculative, but I think it's a reasonable reading of the current version of the table. But we may never know....

If I may be forgiven for suggesting the obvious, why not search the soc gen medieval archives? There's a lot about Llywelyn and his offspring. From memory, John Ravilious referred to the identification of Llywelyn's daughter Susanne by the late Andrew MacEwen, maybe there's something about Angharad as well.
Another place to look might be the Ancient Wales Studies site, but it doesn't have a search facility, just a list of articles. It's pretty scathing about Bartrum's accuracy, or lack of it.

I would not recommend the so-called "Ancient Wales Studies" site as a source of genealogical information. It appears to be a platform for a single individual to promote his own genealogical speculations in a format that has the appearance of authority. In my opinion, the level of scholarship of this site is extremely low.

As for Bartrum's principle works on Welsh genealogy, they consist of two main types:

1. Critical editions of many of the earliest Welsh genealogical manuscripts (e.g., his "Early Welsh Genealogical Tracts" [EWGT]). These works gives quotes of the statements of genealogical manuscripts of varying reliability, which should be cited on an individual basis, with due allowance for the date of the manuscript, the author and date of composition (if known), and other factors which might influence the reliability of the source.

2. His most widely used (and misused) work, "Welsh Genealogies, AD 300-1400" (and its 1400-1500 continuation), which outlines the statements of the genealogical manuscripts, but usually with the inconsistencies smoothed over (and often unmentioned). Often misinterpreted by amateurs as "THE FINAL AUTHORITY" on early Welsh genealogy, a citation from this work alone should not be regarded as adequate "proof" of a relationship. It is, however, an extremely valuable finding aid. The most important part of the work, usually completely ignored by the uninformed, is the index, which cites the genealogical manuscripts giving the information, which the careful genealogist should then consult to see the extent to which the relationship given in the tables is supported by the evidence (or not). For the earlier period, most of these original genealogies have been published in EWGT or other works. For the later medieval period, the manuscripts cited by Bartrum are often still unpublished, making the process of checking more difficult.

Stewart Baldwin

For those who are new to Bartrum's work online, I thought I would add a few notes to help anyone contemplating following Stewart Baldwin's suggestions, since I found it very confusing to work with the online version of Bartrum's work at first. (It is still somewhat confusing to me. Disclaimer: I have no particular expertise in Welsh genealogy.)

First, the home page is here:
http://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/handle/2160/4026

You want to use the lower search bar.

Next, you look up the person in the indexes. The indexes are organized by male/female; date; and first letter of name. So for Angharad ferch Llywelyn ap Iorwerth Drwyndwn, first I would enter "Index" and "women" in the lower search bar. On the third page of hits, I find the section I am looking for: "Index of Women born c. 985-1215 A-E". If you click on that, you get this:

http://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/handle/2160/6568

It's in alphabetical order, so I open pages systematically until I find the one I am looking for. Angharad turns up on page 179:

http://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/handle/2160/6568/179.png

In the column to the right, it gives an abbreviation of the title of the chart on which Angharad appears. In this case, "Gr. ap C. 4", which is Gruffudd ap Cynan 4. If you go back to the home page and search for "Gruffudd ap Cynan", you will find that page ("Gruffudd ap Cynan 04"):

http://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/handle/2160/5112/gruffudd%20ap%20cynan%204.png

Going back to the index page for Angharad, the abbreviations below Angharad's name are the sources that Bartrum is citing. He explains these abbreviations in his introduction, starting at page 10:

http://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/handle/2160/6513

If you look up the abbreviations for the sources he cites under Angharad's name, you will find that they are these:

PAR3d = section 3d of "Plant yr Arglwydd Rhys" ed. P.C. Bartrum in NLW Journal XIV. 97-104.
(Available online here:)
http://welshjournals.llgc.org.uk/browse/viewobject/llgc-id:1282484/article/000038164

C119, 182 = pages 119 and 182 of Peniarth 131 pp. 71-138, 177-188 by Gutun Owain, c. 1480.

F30, 76/7 = pages 30, 76/7 of Peniarth 129 pp.4-134 (c. 1500). Copied from John Ryland's Welsh MS. 1 by Gutun Owain, 1497. Photostat copy in NLW 11, 114.1

G32, 79 = page 32 and page 79 of Peniarth 127 by 'Syr' Thomas ap Ieuan ap Deicws, c. 1510 - 1523.

And if you check the sources that Bartrum later pencilled in beside Angharad's name on the chart, you will find they are these:

RV = Peniarth 287 by Robert Vaughan of Hengwrt (d. 1667).

F79 = page 79 of Peniarth 129 pp.4-134 (c. 1500). Copied from John Rylands Welsh MS. 1 by Gutun Owain, 1497. Photostat copy in NLW 11, 114.1

G9, G79 = page 9 and page 79 of Peniarth 127 by 'Syr' Thomas ap Ieuan ap Deicws, c. 1510 - 1523.

C119, 183 = pages 119 and 183 of Peniarth 131 pp. 71-138, 177-188 by Gutun Owain, c. 1480.

Q124 = page 124 of Peniarth 135 by Gruffudd Hiraethog (d. 1564).


Roderick Ward

I just thought I would add that section 3d of "Plant yr Arglwydd Rhys", linked to above, does specify that Joan was Angharad's mother, for what it is worth:

"Gwraic Maelgwyn ifank oedd Angharad verch Llywelyn ap Ie[r]werth drwyndwnn o Sioned verch Iauan vrenin Lloegr i mam."

Sorry for the multiple posts, but I think I misread Bartrum's handwriting when I wrote down "G9" above. It should be "GG" = The Golden Grove Book.

Roderick Ward