Hamnet & Hamlet

Discussion:

Hamnet & Hamlet

(too old to reply)

david seals

2014-03-07 18:12:07 UTC

Good one - -

www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2004/oct/21/the-death-of-Hamnet-and-the-making-of-hamlet/

Just for argument's sake, just for a minute, suppose the Author was actually a sympathetic colleague of the man who lost a son of 11 in 1596; and honored him with the title of a Play with the same name? Quite a coincidence.

Arthur Neuendorffer

2014-03-07 20:25:07 UTC

Permalink

Good one - - http://tinyurl.com/jw9wxxx

<<Just for argument's sake, just for a minute, suppose the Author was actually a sympathetic colleague of the man who lost a son of 11 in 1596; and honored him with the title of a Play with the same name?

Quite a coincidence.>>
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Quite:
-------------------------------------------------------------------
. Katherine HAMLETT drowned in the Avon December 18, 1579
while fetching a pail of water.
(during Venus/Mercury/Sun/Moon conj.)
.................................................................
Arthur Brooke was admitted to Inner Temple December 18, 1561
sponsors: Grandmaster Thomas Sackville
& Thomas Norton, authors of *Gordobuc*(1560)

[Brooke wrote *Romeus and Juliet* in 1562 and drowned in 1563]
------------------------------------------------------------------
Feast Day of Epona: 18 December
..................................................................
<<Epona, from Celtic Gaul, was especially
worshipped as a protectress of horses,
a bringer of fecundity to mares, and
*a giver of well being to fools*.>>
.................................................................
<<The name *AMLETH* derives frome the Old Norse for an idiot,
. or for a tricky *Fool* who feigns idiocy.>>
.
- Harold Bloom's _Shakespeare, the Invention of the Human_ p.390
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Edward de Vere marries daughter of *Treasurer* Lord Burghley:

Anne Cecil [age *15*] on DECEMBER 19, 1571
(during Venus/Uranus/Sun conj.)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Anne Cecil = OPHELIA/OPALIA: DECEMBER 19
.....................................................................
<<Ops (Opis) The Roman goddess of the earth as a source of fertility,
and a goddess of *abundance & wealth* (her name means *"plenty"*).
As goddess of harvest she is closely associated with the god Consus.
She is the sister and wife of Saturn. One of her temples was located
near Saturn's temple, and on August 10 a festival took place there.

Another festival was the Opalia, which was observed on December 19.
On the Forum Romanum she shared a sanctuary with the goddess Ceres
as the protectors of the harvest.

The major temple was of Ops Capitolina, on the Capitoline Hill,
where Caesar had located the *Treasury*.>>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Emily Bronte died away from doctors
with only immediate family and Keeper her
(3 headed?) bulldog attending the funeral: DECEMBER 19, 1848

Robinson Crusoe rescued: DECEMBER 19, 1686
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Marlowe was buried in an unmarked
grave in *St. NICHOLAS* churchyard, Deptford
........................................................
Anne Cecil's father builds a large monument to her
and her mother & children in Westminster Abbey
in the chapel of *St. NICHOLAS*
....................................................
July 6th 1588 - Anne Cecil de VERE dies of a fEVER
................................................
July 6th 1070 - St. *gODELIEVE* murdered
. by *DROWNING IN A POND* after being strangled into
. unconciousness by her mother-in-law's servants.
--------------------------------------------------------------
THE CREST OF *JOHANN VALENTIN ANDREÆ*.
Loading Image...

....................................................
<<The reference to four red roses & a white cross in
the Chymical Marriage of Christian Rosencreutz identified
Johann Valentin Andreæ as its author, for his family crest,
shown above, consisted of four red roses & a white cross.>>
........................................................
__ \_*_/
__ _\_/
__ * - X * Edward de Vere, Erle of Oxenford was buryed
__ _/_\ __________ the 6th daye of Julye Å 1604
__ _/ *_\ ____________ [ *St. Godelieve's day* ]
.
<<The strange, large 'X' type symbol appears to have been put there
much later. According to Paul Altrocchi, this must have happened a
many decades later "...since pencils with such a sharp point did
not appear until the late 1600's." It really is anybody's guess
who put it there - perhaps an over-enthusiastic Oxfordian?>>
.
- _The Death of Edward de Vere_ by Michael Llewellyn
...........................................................
1604 WHITgift dies on February 29th.
1604 1000th anniversary of St.Augustine's death.
1604 Tomb of Christian Rosenkreutz discovered.
1604 Hamlet published
1604 FAMA Fraternitatis published
1604 Tragical History of Doctor Faustus (V1) published
1604 Oxford dies on the Feastday of John the Baptist.
1604 Kepler's NOVA/AVON.
1604 Susan marries Pembroke on the Feastday of John the Devine
...........................................................
1616 *JOHANN VALENTIN ANDREÆ's* Rosicrucian manifesto:
. _The Chemical Wedding of Christian *ROSEN-KREUZ* 1459_
.
1616 Shakespeare wills Anne second best bed.
1616 Cervantes & Shakespeare die on St.George's Day.
1616 1000th anniversary of Ethelbert(/bard?)'s death.
1616 Jupiter returns the "Serpent's foot"
1616 Tragical History of Doctor Faustus (V2) published
-----------------------------------------------------------
Art Neuendorffer

Phil Innes

2014-03-08 21:36:34 UTC

Permalink

Post by david seals
Good one - -
www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2004/oct/21/the-death-of-Hamnet-and-the-making-of-hamlet/
Just for argument's sake, just for a minute, suppose the Author was actually a sympathetic colleague of the man who lost a son of 11 in 1596; and honored him with the title of a Play with the same name? Quite a coincidence.

Oldest and most used term I can find on these coinings in the English languages, David, is HAMLING, an A. Sax word, meaning to tie or attach -- this seems quite different than the use if the stem HAM~ in proper names .

I might add that formulations upon these letters HAM~ are very rare in older or later English, to the extent that there may be only a half dozen stems with HAM~ in A. Sax or A. Norman.

As a name at all we might look to its extant use for all things, such as HAME, home, and other such formulations which are all domestic. HAMLET formally means 'high constable'. HAMNET seems to be a variant of HAMLET which is old German, and sometimes claimed as French. Even this is disputed to origin, where it is old French and is this indeed older than the German

-- why someone would use this very unusual name for a child remains as unexplained as any record of the child's life. As you may see below the C16th is at about the end of its usage, and interestingly has some Cornish associations; A Cornwall which did not speak English to any much degree in the C16th [ref. Borde] though I do not mean to distract you as much by this as why the child should be named so unusually

For the etymological record of this word, here is an Etymology I found with mostly O.F. origin, it is somewhat general, but gives a sense of its acceptance into English:--

Old French origin, and is one of the diminutive forms of the surname Ham(m)on(d), itself developed from the Norman personal name "Hamo, Hamon", introduced into England after the Conquest of 1066. The Normans adopted the name from the Old Germanic "Haimo", a short form of various compound personal names with the first element "haim", home; it is recorded in the Domesday Book of 1086 as "Hamo, Haimo", and "Hamon", and with an excrescent "d" in the Latinized Hamandus". That this personal name achieved popularity in England during the Middle Ages is well borne out by the number and variety of surnames it has generated; these range from the diminutives Hamnet(t), Hamlett and Hambly to the patronymic forms Ham(p)son, Ha(i)mes and Haymes. The personal name was still in use in the 16th Century; one Hamynet Harrington, "gentleman usher" is recorded in Letters and Papers (Foreign and Domestic) of Henry V111, and a Hamnett Warburton is mentioned in Lancashire Registers as late as 1631. Examples of the name from London Church Registers include: the christening of Hugh, son of Hugh Hamnett, on September 21st 1633, at St. Margaret's, Westminster, and the marriage of Thomas Hamnett and Maria Blakesley at St. Martin-in-the-Fields, on January 1st 1643. The first recorded spelling of the family name is shown to be that of William Hamet, which was dated 1297, in "Minister's Accounts of the Earldom of Cornwall", during the reign of King Edward 1, known as "The Hammer of the Scots", 1272 - 1307. Surnames became necessary when governments introduced personal taxation. In England this was known as Poll Tax. Throughout the centuries, surnames in every country have continued to "develop" often leading to astonishing variants of the original spelling.

Phil Innes

Al Smith

2014-03-09 02:10:59 UTC

Permalink

Here's another good one: Occam's Razor.
Do not multiply entities unnecessarily.
So how about we suppose that the author
and the person who had a son named Hamlet
were the same person? That would be quite
a coincidence too, as Shakespeare's name
is on the title page of the play "Hamlet",
and Shakespeare had a son Hamnet.

bookburn

2014-03-09 02:30:30 UTC

Permalink

Post by Al Smith

Here's another good one: Occam's Razor.
Do not multiply entities unnecessarily.

(snip)

But Hamnet is not the same as Hamlet, so how far can you go with Occam's Razor with that?

Better to keep objectivity by remembering the intentional and a-pathetic fallacies; in which case, on the one hand, we shouldn't assume the author has certain intentions; but also that it's unnatural for us to pretend that an author has no feelings/intentions about what s/he writes.

Having set some boundaries, I recommend the Greenblat essay at
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2004/oct/21/the-death-of-hamnet-and-the-making-of-hamlet/

Arthur Neuendorffer

2014-03-09 16:30:46 UTC

Permalink

Post by bookburn
But Hamnet is not the same as Hamlet,

-----------------------------------------------------------------
HAMNET SADLER appears in Shakespeare's will as "Hamlett SADLER".
..............................................................
<<Sir Thomas Lucy was active in the intimidation of Catholics,
aggressively raiding their homes after the Somerville Plot for
signs of sedition. In 1584 he arbitrated in a dispute between
one of his servants & HAMNET SADLER, friend of Shakspere's.>>
-----------------------------------------------------------------
1) John Harvard's wife/widow Ann was a *SADLER*.
.
2) Shakspere named his kids after neighbors: Hamnet & Judith *SADLER*.
.
3) Oxford's Brooke House was once owned (1547-8) by Sir Ralph *SADLER*.
.
<<In April 1808 _The Gentleman's Magazine_ printed an engraving by
John Jordan, the early myth-making Stratford antiquarian, showing
a 'View of the BROOK HOUSE, in which it is generally admitted that
Shakspeare was really born'.>> - p. 63 _Who Wrote Shakespeare?_
-----------------------------------------------------------------
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_Sadler

<<Sir Ralph *SADLER*, Knight banneret (1507 - 30 March 1587) was an English statesman, who served Henry VIII as Privy Councillor, Secretary of State and ambassador to Scotland. Sadler went on to serve Edward VI, although having signed the device settling the crown on Jane Grey, was obliged to retire to his estates during the reign of Mary I. Sadler was restored to royal favour during the reign of Elizabeth I, serving as a Privy Councillor and once again participating in Anglo-Scottish diplomacy. He was appointed Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster in May 1568.

At around seven years of age, Sadler was placed in the household of Thomas Cromwell, later Earl of Essex where he received an excellent education. He was taught to read and write, becoming fluent in French, Latin and Greek and acquired a working knowledge of the law. He proved to be not only intelligent and resourceful, but also capable of great feats of horsemanship and was skilled at falconry. Sadler was unwillingly appointed to meet with the Scottish commissioners regarding that problem. He was sent to arrest the Duke of Norfolk during the Rising of the Northern Earls, and was reluctantly appointed gaoler of Mary, Queen of Scots. After the Babington Plot, Sadler was also on the council that sentenced Mary to death.>>

Children:

[H]enry SADLER (b. 1539 - d. 17 Mar 1618)
[A]nne SADLER
[M]ary SADLER
[E]dward SADLER (b. 1537 - d. 4 Apr 1584)
[T]homas SADLER (b. 1534 - d. 5 Jan 1606)

DoROThy SADLER
Jane SADLER
--------------------------------------------------------------
BROOKE HOUSE (King's Place) OWNERS
.............................................................
-> July-Aug 1547: Sir William Herbert
.
. The First Folio is, of course, dedicated to his Herbert's sons.
.
-> Aug-Oct 1547: Sir Ralph Sadler & John Hales of Coventry
-> Oct 1547 - Feb 1548: Sir Ralph Sadler
.
. Shakspere's neighbor: Hamnet Sadler
.
-> April 1564 - Shakspere born in Brook House, Stratford.
.
-> Feb 1548 - July 1578: Sir Wymond CAREW;
-> 1548: Brooke House was sold by Richard CAREW,
-> antiquary and author of _The Survey of Cornwall_.
.
. Elizabeth angrily rejected Essex's suggestion
. of Sir George CAREW as Lord Deputy of Ireland.
.
-> 1571-1578: Countess of Lennox lived intermittently at Brooke House
.
-> July 1578 - March 1583: Henry Carey, Lord Hunsdon
. (Shakespeare's Lord Chamberlain)
.
-> March 1583-1592: Sir Rowland Hayward Lord Mayor in 1571 and 1591
. (former Clothworker)
.
-> Shakspere's New Place was built by Lord Mayor of London 1492
. (Sir Hugh Clopton).
.
-> 1592-1597: feofees in trust of Sir Rowland Hayward
.
-> 1597- June, 1609: Elizabeth, Countess of Oxford, Francis Trentham.
-> 1597- May, Shakspere buys New Place from William Underhill.
-> 1597- July, U(nd)ERHill is poisoned by
his son FULKE.
.
-> 1598 Oct., Richard Quiney writes Shakspere for money.
.
-> 1602 May, Bailiff Richard Quiney's 'head grievously broken by
. henchmen of Edward GREVille
. HREUill
-> 1609-28 : Sir FULKE GREVille
-------------------------------------------------------------
Fulke Greville/Baron BROOKE - STABbed by servant, 1628.
. Christopher Marlowe - STABbed by a spy, 1593.
. Edward deVere - STABs a servant, 1567.
..........................................................
Fulke Greville's heir was his cousin Robert Greville/Lord Brooke.
.
Robert Greville's doctor was Dr. James Cooke who wrote about
Susanna Shakspere/Hall in "Epistle to the Friendly Reader"
of John Hall's 1657 _Select Observations on English Bodies_
------------------------------------------------------------------
1) <<In April 1808 _The Gentleman's Magazine_ printed an engraving
by John Jordan, the early myth-making Stratford antiquarian, showing
a 'View of the BROOK HOUSE, in which it is generally admitted that
Shakspeare was really born'.>> - p. 63 _Who Wrote Shakespeare?_
.
2)<<The Oxfords' [Hackney/Vaux] house was known as King's Place,
later as BROOKE HOUSE. Its history can be traced back to the 1470s.>>
.
The previous resident (Lord Vaux) was a Catholic sympathizer who
used his large house to hide Jesuit priests such as Edmund CAMPION.
.
<< "a large mansion" and "a fair house, all of brick, with a fair
. hall and parlour, a large gallery, a proper chapel, and a proper
. library to aly books in." It stood until 1955, when, having been
. badly damaged by bombs int he war, it was torn down.>>
. - p. 742 _The Mysterious William Shakespeare_
.
In 1608, Oxford's widow sold King's Place/BROOKE HOUSE to
Sidney's biographer and friend, Fulke Greville/Baron BROOKE.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Art Neuendorffer

david seals

2014-03-10 21:53:10 UTC

Permalink

Post by Arthur Neuendorffer

Post by bookburn
But Hamnet is not the same as Hamlet,

-----------------------------------------------------------------
HAMNET SADLER appears in Shakespeare's will as "Hamlett SADLER".

That's right, the spelling was interchangeable (like his father).

Post by Arthur Neuendorffer
..............................................................
<<Sir Thomas Lucy was active in the intimidation of Catholics,
aggressively raiding their homes after the Somerville Plot for
signs of sedition. In 1584 he arbitrated in a dispute between
one of his servants & HAMNET SADLER, friend of Shakspere's.>>
-----------------------------------------------------------------
1) John Harvard's wife/widow Ann was a *SADLER*.
.
2) Shakspere named his kids after neighbors: Hamnet & Judith *SADLER*.
.
3) Oxford's Brooke House was once owned (1547-8) by Sir Ralph *SADLER*.
.
<<In April 1808 _The Gentleman's Magazine_ printed an engraving by
John Jordan, the early myth-making Stratford antiquarian, showing
a 'View of the BROOK HOUSE, in which it is generally admitted that
Shakspeare was really born'.>> - p. 63 _Who Wrote Shakespeare?_
-----------------------------------------------------------------
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_Sadler
<<Sir Ralph *SADLER*, Knight banneret (1507 - 30 March 1587) was an English statesman, who served Henry VIII as Privy Councillor, Secretary of State and ambassador to Scotland. Sadler went on to serve Edward VI, although having signed the device settling the crown on Jane Grey, was obliged to retire to his estates during the reign of Mary I. Sadler was restored to royal favour during the reign of Elizabeth I, serving as a Privy Councillor and once again participating in Anglo-Scottish diplomacy. He was appointed Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster in May 1568.
At around seven years of age, Sadler was placed in the household of Thomas Cromwell, later Earl of Essex where he received an excellent education.

Didn't Someone writing under "W.S." write a play about Thomas Lord Cromwell, and it was included in Shakespeare's 3rd Folio? Is this the same "T.C."? Oh, different Hamn[l}ett Sadler?

He was taught to read and write, becoming fluent in French, Latin and Greek and acquired a working knowledge of the law. He proved to be not only intelligent and resourceful, but also capable of great feats of horsemanship and was skilled at falconry. Sadler was unwillingly appointed to meet with the Scottish commissioners regarding that problem. He was sent to arrest the Duke of Norfolk during the Rising of the Northern Earls, and was reluctantly appointed gaoler of Mary, Queen of Scots. After the Babington Plot, Sadler was also on the council that sentenced Mary to death.>>

Wasn't one Henry Stanley, 4th Earl of Derby, also on that condemnatory Council? Harumph harumph

Post by Arthur Neuendorffer
[H]enry SADLER (b. 1539 - d. 17 Mar 1618)
[A]nne SADLER
[M]ary SADLER
[E]dward SADLER (b. 1537 - d. 4 Apr 1584)
[T]homas SADLER (b. 1534 - d. 5 Jan 1606)
DoROThy SADLER
Jane SADLER
--------------------------------------------------------------
BROOKE HOUSE (King's Place) OWNERS
.............................................................
-> July-Aug 1547: Sir William Herbert
.
. The First Folio is, of course, dedicated to his Herbert's sons.

Of course ("W.H.")

Post by Arthur Neuendorffer
.
-> Aug-Oct 1547: Sir Ralph Sadler & John Hales of Coventry
-> Oct 1547 - Feb 1548: Sir Ralph Sadler
.
. Shakspere's neighbor: Hamnet Sadler
.
-> April 1564 - Shakspere born in Brook House, Stratford.
.
-> Feb 1548 - July 1578: Sir Wymond CAREW;
-> 1548: Brooke House was sold by Richard CAREW,
-> antiquary and author of _The Survey of Cornwall_.
.
. Elizabeth angrily rejected Essex's suggestion
. of Sir George CAREW as Lord Deputy of Ireland.
.
-> 1571-1578: Countess of Lennox lived intermittently at Brooke House
.
-> July 1578 - March 1583: Henry Carey, Lord Hunsdon
. (Shakespeare's Lord Chamberlain)
.
-> March 1583-1592: Sir Rowland Hayward Lord Mayor in 1571 and 1591
. (former Clothworker)
.
-> Shakspere's New Place was built by Lord Mayor of London 1492
. (Sir Hugh Clopton).
.
-> 1592-1597: feofees in trust of Sir Rowland Hayward
.
-> 1597- June, 1609: Elizabeth, Countess of Oxford, Francis Trentham.
-> 1597- May, Shakspere buys New Place from William Underhill.
-> 1597- July, U(nd)ERHill is poisoned by
his son FULKE.
.
-> 1598 Oct., Richard Quiney writes Shakspere for money.
.
-> 1602 May, Bailiff Richard Quiney's 'head grievously broken by
. henchmen of Edward GREVille
. HREUill
-> 1609-28 : Sir FULKE GREVille
-------------------------------------------------------------
Fulke Greville/Baron BROOKE - STABbed by servant, 1628.
. Christopher Marlowe - STABbed by a spy, 1593.
. Edward deVere - STABs a servant, 1567.

Ferdinando Strange Stanley, 4th Earl of Derby, poisoned in 1594, like King Haml{n}et @ 1594-1603.

Hamnet Shakespeare deceased, 1596 (poisoned, stabbed, plague?)

3 major Elizabethan theatre figures dead in 1593, 1594, 1596 - no wonder our Sonnetteer is so depressed (sonnets first mentioned in 1598, etc.)

Post by Arthur Neuendorffer
..........................................................
Fulke Greville's heir was his cousin Robert Greville/Lord Brooke.
.
Robert Greville's doctor was Dr. James Cooke who wrote about
Susanna Shakspere/Hall in "Epistle to the Friendly Reader"
of John Hall's 1657 _Select Observations on English Bodies_
------------------------------------------------------------------
1) <<In April 1808 _The Gentleman's Magazine_ printed an engraving
by John Jordan, the early myth-making Stratford antiquarian, showing
a 'View of the BROOK HOUSE, in which it is generally admitted that
Shakspeare was really born'.>> - p. 63 _Who Wrote Shakespeare?_
.
2)<<The Oxfords' [Hackney/Vaux] house was known as King's Place,
later as BROOKE HOUSE. Its history can be traced back to the 1470s.>>

Lord Strang Darbie's Men plays Stratford, 1585

Post by Arthur Neuendorffer
.
The previous resident (Lord Vaux) was a Catholic sympathizer who
used his large house to hide Jesuit priests such as Edmund CAMPION.
.
<< "a large mansion" and "a fair house, all of brick, with a fair
. hall and parlour, a large gallery, a proper chapel, and a proper
. library to aly books in." It stood until 1955, when, having been
. badly damaged by bombs int he war, it was torn down.>>
. - p. 742 _The Mysterious William Shakespeare_
.
In 1608, Oxford's widow sold King's Place/BROOKE HOUSE to
Sidney's biographer and friend, Fulke Greville/Baron BROOKE.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Art Neuendorffer

marco

2014-08-12 17:40:15 UTC

Permalink

Art N

bookburn

2014-03-09 16:34:55 UTC

Permalink

Post by bookburn

Post by Al Smith

Here's another good one: Occam's Razor.
Do not multiply entities unnecessarily.

(snip)
But Hamnet is not the same as Hamlet, so how far can you go with Occam's Razor with that?
Better to keep objectivity by remembering the intentional and a-pathetic fallacies; in which case, on the one hand, we shouldn't assume the author has certain intentions; but also that it's unnatural for us to pretend that an author has no feelings/intentions about what s/he writes.
Having set some boundaries, I recommend the Greenblatt essay at
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2004/oct/21/the-death-of-hamnet-and-the-making-of-hamlet/

---------------

Notice how Greenblatt prepares us for an expansive description of Shakespeare's supposedly opaque treatment of Hamnet's death in other plays, especially, IMO, the lines from R III

(quote)
Grief fills the room up of my absent child,
Lies in his bed, walks up and down with me,
Puts on his pretty looks, repeats his words,
Remembers me of all his gracious parts,
Stuffs out his vacant garments with his form.
(III.4.93-97)
(unquote)

Introducing his subject with due diligence regarding ambiguities in his critical approach, I think Greenblatt has done a nice job of marshalling the circumstantial evidence in support of a Hamlet-Hamnet identity behind Shakespeare's intentions of 1) using his biographical experiences for material in composing the play; 2) keeping his personal feelings about Hamnet at bay in the play; and 3) showing us where else in the canon Shakespeare's personal feelings about his son's death seem to show up in the lines.

I suppose Greenblatt might have gone further to intimate how Shakespeare is affected by his son's death in what's between the lines, where his lines are emotionally charged by association with traumatic memory and nostalgia, or even how Shakespeare navigates around the subject. But that shows at least modest respect for the critical problem of crossing the boundary into the intentional fallacy.

Not supposed to be building a structure of interpretation based on assumptions of what the author intended, although it's an attractive proposition, and we all do it. Suppose to be that we all stay with only the objective record in writing, without reading between the lines. bookburn

Arthur Neuendorffer

2014-03-09 21:03:08 UTC

Permalink

bookburn wrote: <<Notice how Greenblatt prepares us for an expansive description of Shakespeare's supposedly opaque treatment of Hamnet's death in other plays, especially, IMO, the lines from R III>>

Post by bookburn
(quote)
Grief fills the room up of my absent child,
Lies in his bed, walks up and down with me,
Puts on his pretty looks, repeats his words,
Remembers me of all his gracious parts,
Stuffs out his vacant garments with his form.
(III.4.93-97)
(unquote)

-----------------------------------------------------------
IMO, the lines are from King John:
-----------------------------------------------------------
. King John (Folio 1, 1623)
.
Const. He talkes to me, that *nEVER* had a sonne.
.
Fra. You are as fond of greefe, as of your childe.
.
Con. Greefe fils the roome vp of my absent childe:
. Lies in his bed,walkes vp and downe with me,
. Puts on his pretty lookes, repeats his words,
. Remembets me of all his gracious parts,
. Stuffes out his vacant garments with his forme;
. Then,haue I reason to be fond of griefe?
. Fareyouwell: had you such a losse as I,
. I could giue better comfort then you doe.
. I will not keepe this forme vpon my head,
. When there is such disorder in my witte:
. O Lord, my boy, my Arthur, my faire sonne,
. My life, my ioy, my food, my all the world:
. My widow-comfort,and my sorrowes cure.
--------------------------------------------------------
Oxford also lost a sonne:
.................................................
Four Epytaphs

Published in John Soowthern's book, Pandora in 1584

To the ryght honourable the Earle of Oxenford. & c...

Sonnet 4

Idall, for Adon, nev'r shed so many teares:
Nor Thet', for Pelid: nor Phoebus, for Hyacinthusj
Nor for Atis, the mother of Prophetesses
At the brute of it, the Aphroditan Queene,
Caused more silver to distyll fro her eyes:
Then when the droppes of her cheeke raysed Daisyes:
And to die with him, mortall, she would have be[E]ne.
The Charits, fo[R] it breake their P[E]rug, of golde:
The M[U]ses, and {T}he Nymph[E]s of C{A}ve: I behold[E]:
Al{L} the gods unde[R] {O}lympus are con{S}traint,
On Laches, Clothon, and Atropos to plaine.
And yet beauties, for it doth make no complaint:
For it liv'de with him, and died with him againe.
..........................................
__ <= 14 =>
.
. w i t h h i m,m o r t a l l,
. s h e w o u l d h a v e b e
. [E]n e.T h e C h a r i t s,f
. o[R]i t b r e a k e t h e i
. r P[E]r u g,o f g o l d e T
. h e M[U]s e s,a n d{T}h e N
. y m p h[E]s o f C{A}v e:I b
. e h o l d[E]A l{L}t h e g o
. d s u n d e[R|O}l y m p u s
. a r e c o n{S}t r a i n t,
..............................
[ERE.U.EER] 15
{TALOS} 13
-------------------------------------------------------------
Monstrous Adversary: The Life of Edward de Vere, 17th Earl of Oxford:

On 6 May 1583 *NICHOLAS* Faunt wrote to Anthony Bacon from Greenwich:

God had sent my Lord of Oxford a Sonne but hath taken it awaie from him... so it pleaseth the Lord to afflict the best and mightiest ones...

The boy was buried in *St. NICHOLAS* Church
"down the hill from *HedingHAM* castle" on May 9, 1583
-------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Marlowe was killed on May 30, 1593
and was buried in an unmarked grave
in *St. NICHOLAS* churchyard, Deptford
........................................................
Anne Cecil's father builds a large monument to her
and her mother & children in Westminster Abbey
in the chapel of *St. NICHOLAS*
....................................................
July 6th 1588 - Anne Cecil de VERE dies of a fEVER
................................................
July 6th 1070 - St. *gODELIEVE* murdered
. by *DROWNING IN A POND* after being strangled into
. unconciousness by her mother-in-law's servants.
-----------------------------------------------
Art Neuendorffer

bookburn

2014-03-10 00:38:08 UTC

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This post might be inappropriate. Click to display it.

d***@dartmouth.edu

2014-03-10 18:51:11 UTC

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In article <6d08d400-338d-4b1f-99c3-***@googlegroups.com>,
Arthur Neuendorffer <***@gmail.com> (aka Noonedafter) wrote:

[...]

Post by Arthur Neuendorffer
-----------------------------------------------------------
. King John (Folio 1, 1623)
.
Const. He talkes to me, that *nEVER* had a sonne.
.
Fra. You are as fond of greefe, as of your childe.
.
. Lies in his bed,walkes vp and downe with me,
. Puts on his pretty lookes, repeats his words,
. Remembets me of all his gracious parts,
. Stuffes out his vacant garments with his forme;
. Then,haue I reason to be fond of griefe?
. Fareyouwell: had you such a losse as I,
. I could giue better comfort then you doe.
. I will not keepe this forme vpon my head,
. O Lord, my boy, my Arthur, my faire sonne,
. My widow-comfort,and my sorrowes cure.
--------------------------------------------------------

But Art -- according to Arundel, Oxford evidently preferred being
mooned to being sonned, particularly at point-blank range.

[Crackpot cryptography snipped]

Post by Arthur Neuendorffer
-----------------------------------------------
Art Neuendorffer

Paul Crowley

2014-03-09 11:02:15 UTC

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Post by Al Smith

Post by david seals
Good one - -
www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2004/oct/21/the-death-of-Hamnet-and-the-making-of-hamlet/
Just for argument's sake, just for a minute, suppose the
Author was actually a sympathetic colleague of the man
who lost a son of 11 in 1596; and honored him with the title
of a Play with the same name? Quite a coincidence.

And we all know that famous play -- Hamlet
-- about how an 11-year-old boy drowned in a
river, after going fishing --- tragical . . .

. . . and comical historical, pastoral, pastoral-
comical, historical-pastoral, tragical-historical,
tragical-comical- historical-pastoral, scene
individable, or poem unlimited . . .

Paul.

Al Smith

2014-03-09 05:40:57 UTC

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Post by bookburn
But Hamnet is not the same as Hamlet, so how far can you go with Occam's Razor with that?

I wouldn't go anywhere with it, but the op thought
they were the same name.