EgyptSearch Forums: The Egyptian Origin of the Fulani

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Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
 
Ancient Egypt, like all other great African civilizations, was not the sole creation of a single ethnic group, but rather a collective collaboration of many African peoples, held together by a central government; at times ethnic tensions would plunge the nation into chaos, on other occasions, chaos would be due to other social tensions. Yet it remains the longest historical civilization in human history.

But the history of civilizations is always told as the history of its ruling class or its founders; in Ancient Egypt we have the Anu and later the Mesnitu ruling class obscuring the reality that Ancient Egypt was no different in its ethnic composition than modern Nigeria or Ethiopia, except perhaps with a greater sense of identity as a nationality.

Asiatic myths trumps African reality

It is a given that peoples emigrate from their homelands for a myriad of reasons. Emigrations out of historic Egypt into Asia, based almost entirely on biblical mythology, are readily accepted as historical fact - The Hebrews were enslaved in Egypt for four hundred years, were led out of there by this guy with an Egyptian name, who had a magical stick that parted the "Red" Sea...

On the reality side, of Africans emigrating from historic Egypt back into Africa, based upon tons of historical, cultural, linguistic, ad infinitum, evidence; this natural phenomena becomes "controversial"

Now look at the following quote, one that places the origin of the Fulani safely in the 'upper Nile region,' which ignores the historical reality that the Fulani were Egyptian nationals prior to their emigration into the upper Nile region,

quote:

Fulani history
Some historians believe the Fulani emerged from a prehistoric pastoral group that originated in the upper Nile region around 3500 B.C. As the climate of the Sahara grew increasingly harsh, population pressures drove them to migrate slowly west and south in search of better grazing lands. By the eleventh century the Fulani emerged as a distinct people group in the Sénégambia Valley. Over the next 400 years they journeyed back east, but south of the Sahara, which had become an inhospitable desert.
Traditionally most Fulani are shepherds or cattle herders, but over time some settled down and, by the nineteenth century, had established a series of kingdoms between Sénégal and Cameroon. The Fulani have myths about how the nomads and settled rulers emerged...

...for starters here's some linguistic data comparing Fulani / Mdu Ntr...

I - mi / ni
you - on / un
we - en / un
they - be / bu (people)
to be bad - bonude / boone
bad - boni / bon
death; to die - maayde;maayude / maati, moute, moout, mouti
last year - rawanen / snouf; ronpe
eye - yitere / eirti
blessing - barka / baraka
cow - nagge / naga
father - baaba / baba
...
the evidence is inexhaustible...
 
Posted by The Gaul (Member # 16198) on :
 
Seems this subject is remeniscent of the Dogon and "Po tollo". Africans themselves can say it for hundreds of years, but it won't be believed until foreigners give the green light.

As such, we have this:

http://www.livescience.com/history/060720_sahara_rains.html

quote:
Some 12,000 years ago, the only place to live along the eastern Sahara Desert was the Nile Valley . Being so crowded, prime real estate in the Nile Valley was difficult to come by. Disputes over land were often settled with the fist, as evidenced by the cemetery of Jebel Sahaba where many of the buried individuals had died a violent death.

But around 10,500 years ago, a sudden burst of monsoon rains over the vast desert transformed the region into habitable land.

This opened the door for humans to move into the area, as evidenced by the researcher's 500 new radiocarbon dates of human and animal remains from more than 150 excavation sites

 -
 
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Wally:

...for starters here's some linguistic data comparing Fulani / Mdu Ntr...

I - mi / ni
you - on / un
we - en / un
they - be / bu (people)
to be bad - bonude / boone
bad - boni / bon
death; to die - maayde;maayude / maati, moute, moout, mouti
last year - rawanen / snouf; ronpe
eye - yitere / eirti
blessing - barka / baraka
cow - nagge / naga
father - baaba / baba
...
the evidence is inexhaustible...

Just to punch a hole in your rationale, I'll just demonstrate a few examples.

Let's take say, "you" in ancient Egyptian.

A number of words can mean "you" in ancient Egyptian: e.g.-- tn (m, dep.), ntk (m, indep.), tn (f or p, dep.), ntt (f, indep.) or nttn (p, indep.); not to leave out affixed counterparts like -- '-k' (m), '-t' (f), or '-tn' (p).

As one can see, it is more complex than presented in the so-called "Fulani/Mdu ntr" list cited above. None of these are taken into account in Wally's "selective" list.

Another example, let's take "I".

Here too, number of derivatives come to attention:

'Wi/wy' (m, dep.), 'ink' (m, indep.), and affixed -- '-i'.

The same can be demonstrated for several of the other terms listed.
 
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
 
quote:
Just to punch a hole in your rationale, I'll just demonstrate a few examples.
Let's take say, "you" in ancient Egyptian...

(sigh)
obviously doesn't understand the concept of correspondence in language - agreement: compatibility. Thinks that "exhaustive"(include every possible element) is a way to punch a hole in "correspondence."

Let us give an example by comparing the word "you" in three languages of the Romance family - Spanish, Portuguese, and French:

You - Tu, Voce, Tu
tu / voce / tu
vosotros / voce / te
vosotras / voces / vous
usted / tu / tu
ustedes / te / toi
Ud / ti / on
Vd / Vos / -
uno / senhor / -
la / senhores / -
le / senhora / -
ti / senhoras / -
les / ihe / -
os / ihes / -
te / o / -
vds / os / -
uds / a / -

an example of correspondence between the three related languages would then be;

you: tu / tu / tu
you: tu / voce / tu
you: vosotras / voces / vous
 
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Wally:
quote:
Just to punch a hole in your rationale, I'll just demonstrate a few examples.
Let's take say, "you" in ancient Egyptian...

(sigh)
obviously doesn't understand the concept of correspondence in language - agreement: compatibility. Thinks that "exhaustive"(include every possible element) is a way to punch a hole in "correspondence."

Let us give an example by comparing the word "you" in three languages of the Romance family - Spanish, Portuguese, and French:

You - Tu, Voce, Tu
tu / voce / tu
vosotros / voce / te
vosotras / voces / vous
usted / tu / tu
ustedes / te / toi
Ud / ti / on
Vd / Vos / -
uno / senhor / -
la / senhores / -
le / senhora / -
ti / senhoras / -
les / ihe / -
os / ihes / -
te / o / -
vds / os / -
uds / a / -

an example of correspondence between the three related languages would then be;

you: tu / tu / tu
you: tu / voce / tu
you: vosotras / voces / vous

You can learn more about comparative linguistics in relation to African and Egyptian languages
here .


.
 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Although, only the religious take every part of the
Exodus story as historical, most relegate it to the
rank of legend. All legends have a historical core.

Unlike the daydream of Egyptian origins for Fulani no
one seriously disputes that the Israelites became a
national entity in KM.t and left it either voluntarily
or forcefully in New Kingdom times (circa 14th cent.
BCE) from the Eastern Delta.

How's that? The Egyptians never contested the existence
of an Egyptian named leader of A3mw who was an iconoclast
and seceded a multitude of Egyptian nationals and resident
aliens moving them to the Levant.

What? Sounds fantastic? Well it's documented by two
Egyptian scribes, Cheremon and Manetho
(yeah, the guy
we owe the king list to, among other things). And the
first documented written historic mention of Israel is
an AEL ethnonym inscribed on orders from none other
than Pharaoh Merneptah himself.

Daydreamers of Egyptian origins for Fulani or other
non-Egyptian ethnies can produce not a single
ethnonymous use of Tutsi, Akan, Fulani, etc.,
in any primary Rn Mdw document.

All they can do is bewail the fact that such exists
for Israel. Envy is such a terrible resource wasting
thing, ain't it Wally.  -

quote:
Originally posted by Wally:


Asiatic myths trumps African reality

It is a given that peoples emigrate from their homelands for a myriad of reasons. Emigrations out of historic Egypt into Asia, based almost entirely on biblical mythology, are readily accepted as historical fact - The Hebrews were enslaved in Egypt for
[210] years, were led out of there by this guy with an Egyptian name, who had a magical stick that parted the "Red" Sea...

On the reality side, of Africans emigrating from historic Egypt back into Africa, based upon
[a feather of non-]evidence; this natural phenomena becomes "controversial"


 
Posted by The Gaul (Member # 16198) on :
 
I haven't been here that long, so I usually take what akoben says about others with a grain of salt. However, now I have to ask given what you just posted and how it's very much out of place in this thread... The below represent you Al?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=julF3ENP-Ec&feature=related
 
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
 
quote:
alTakruri writes:
Although, only the religious take every part of the
Exodus story as historical, most relegate it to the
rank of legend. All legends have a historical core.
Unlike the daydream of Egyptian origins for Fulani no
one seriously disputes that the Israelites...

The Fulani legends of origins in the east and specifically Egypt is exempt from having a historical core and is thus relegated to a daydream...how quaint and utterly contradictory...

quote:


...Daydreamers of Egyptian origins for Fulani or other
non-Egyptian ethnies can produce not a single
ethnonymous use of Tutsi, Akan, Fulani, etc.,
in any primary Rn Mdw document.

You continue to insist on misunderstanding the meaning of these religious terms and gods, and the fact of these names existing in the culture of Ancient Egypt. I'll try and give an example of how one should interpret this:

If you are strolling casually in some nondescript place and run into some kids wearing various garb; one sports a baseball cap with "NY" as a logo, another wears a tee-shirt with a silk-screen painting of the Golden Gate Bridge, another sports a "Lakers" jersey - your first impression is that these kids are either Americans or are heavily influenced by American culture...

The existence of major ethnic groups throughout Africa, who just happen to have self-described ethnic names that are exact replicas of the names of Ancient Egyptian gods is not something that one casually casts aside. This is factual evidence and not legend. I think that most people here got this the first time around...
 
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Wally:

quote:
Just to punch a hole in your rationale, I'll just demonstrate a few examples.
Let's take say, "you" in ancient Egyptian...

(sigh)
obviously doesn't understand the concept of correspondence in language - agreement: compatibility. Thinks that "exhaustive"(include every possible element) is a way to punch a hole in "correspondence."

And I take it that your better understanding of basic rules of language has allowed you to miss the simple message in my last post?...which no doubt went right over your head. You are simply selecting some random words that you imagine are phonologically similar, but you are not taking into account the actual nature of the words; whether they are derived forms or the neuter form, whether they are simply alternatives amongst a number of lexicon that describe the same concept, which lexicon for an idea came first amongst the variety that express the same idea and so forth, not to leave out the grammatical rules of languages under pairwise comparison -- whether said languages share one. This is the same ignorance you greeted the challenge I put before you [which you run away from for a year or so now], with regards to your supposed Wolof-Mdu Ntr connections:

Originally posted by Wally:

5) Prove that the following expressions are NOT genetically/linguistically related:


EGYPTIAN:Bu nafret su em bu bon, "a state of good has become a state of evil"
WOLOF :Bu rafet mel ni bu bon, "a state of good has become a state of evil"

EGYPTIAN:mer on ef, "he loved"
WOLOF :maar on ef, "he loved passionately"

EGYPTIAN:mer on es, "she loved"
WOLOF :maar on es, "she loved passionately"

EGYPTIAN:mer on sen, "they loved"
WOLOF :maar on sen, "they loved passionately"


My reply:

You have to understand the either “neuter” or “genderless” terms, to be able to recognize their counterparts when they appear in gender suffixed or prefixed pronoun forms, as is the case above, with the term “nfr” - which becomes “nfr.t” [as feminine singular]. While some phonological similarity is obviously invoked in certain terms, like the case is between ‘bw” [Egyptian] and “bu” [Wolof], the “underived” or original application of terms must be examined to see if terms like “bw” [Egyptian], which appear to have multiple meanings, were reinvented multiple times [meaning - phonologically similar terms written in the same letters but without any relationship whatsoever] or simply took upon different disguises, with all ultimately converging on a common ancestral basic theme.

I am aware of ’n’ being used as a preposition, an adjective, a suffixed or dependent pronoun amongst its different applications, but not sure how or whether it relates to the term ‘on‘ used in the examples above, given that we are both familiar with the pronoun Egyptian terms [he, she, they] and the verb [loved] in question. If ‘n’ here does relate to ‘on’, then please clarify its grammatical application in the Wolof counterpart, and also please account for “passionately”, which doesn’t appear in the Mdu Ntr counterpart; for instance, is it denoted by some prefix or suffix [perhaps in the term ‘maar‘] or a lone-standing term [as in ‘on‘]. Whatever the case may be, I have a good hunch that it will weaken the seemingly smooth parallelism in the examples, by not repeating that level of parallelism in the substance behind the terms.

While one cannot rule out some level of relationship between the major African super-language phylums [be it through distant common origins or through historic contacts via immigration, trade networks or conflict], which should at any rate be expected and may well explain some similar terms appearing here and there, such links may or may not be strong when the languages in question are *elaborately* studied.

These still outstanding matters were from little over a year ago: http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=next_topic;f=15;t=000344

Which was again cowardly evaded recently, here: http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=006362;p=1#000000

Your M.O. is to evade challenges you cannot cope with in one topic, wait for a year or so later, and bring the same topic again, hoping the challenges you were put to were forgotten.

Other topics wherein your total lack of knowledge of language had time and again been revealed include:

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=005751;p=1#000000

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=005820;p=1#000022

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=005827;p=1#000000

In these links, your irrelevance or lack of presence are telling; you are either marginalized to the sideline as petty cheerleader, a mute upon being challenged, or else altogether absent. In a few words: you are merely a copy & paste masta who is adept at simply copying & pasting from books, things which he fundamentally doesn't understand. You simply copy & paste Mdu Ntr lexicons, which any idiot with the same books that you have can do...but hardly actually understand language rules, which is why whenever you are tested, you simply breakdown with "sighs" and other such emotional gestures, and cop-out.


quote:


Let us give an example by comparing the word "you" in three languages of the Romance family - Spanish, Portuguese, and French:

You - Tu, Voce, Tu
tu / voce / tu
vosotros / voce / te
vosotras / voces / vous
usted / tu / tu
ustedes / te / toi
Ud / ti / on
Vd / Vos / -
uno / senhor / -
la / senhores / -
le / senhora / -
ti / senhoras / -
les / ihe / -
os / ihes / -
te / o / -
vds / os / -
uds / a / -

an example of correspondence between the three related languages would then be;

you: tu / tu / tu
you: tu / voce / tu
you: vosotras / voces / vous

1) If you weren't living under the rock all these years, it would have hit you immediately that it is no secret that the three languages you are supposedly comparing belong to the same language super-phylum, a non-issue. It seems to be a newsflash to you. LOL.

Fula and Ancient Egyptian belong to two different language phylums. The burden is all your's to support your fringe idea that they belong to a single one, *elaborately* from a language standpoint, not merely cherry-picking certain lexicon you imagine to be phonologically related, without even understanding either the basic nature of said terms or the basic language rules of the languages they respectively belong.

2) Your example is just rubbish that has no relevance to the topic you yourself brought up. You are a disgrace.
 
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
 
Futhermore, you are undoubtedly a crackpot who seems to think that ancient Egypt is essentially the origin point of modern humanity. Everyone from Wolof, Dogon, Fula to Bantu speaking groups came recently from Ancient Egypt as far as you are concerned. Talk about a wacko. LOL.
 
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
Futhermore, you are undoubtedly a crackpot who seems to think that ancient Egypt is essentially the origin point of modern humanity. Everyone from Wolof, Dogon, Fula to Bantu speaking groups came recently from Ancient Egypt as far as you are concerned. Talk about a wacko. LOL.

The linguistic and anthropological evidence make it clear that these people are related.

No one claims that all Africans originated in Egypt. No one claimed the pgymies and Bushman are from Egypt.

The Fula, Dogon and etc. all belong to the same language family. The evidence makes it clear these people originated in Highlands of the Sahara. After the area became arid these people migrated down into Nubia where they existed as the Niger-Congo Superfamily and went up the Nile to conquer the Anu and found Dynastic Egypt.

You have presented no evidence disputing these facts. All you provide is venom and insult. Material only the ignorant accept as valid and reliable. You sad angrey white boy pretending to be African.


 -
.
 
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
The Fula speak a language that is part of the Niger-Congo group.There is controversy surrounding the homeland of Niger-Congo.But most linguist place the homeland for this linguistic group in the Nile Valley. An origin of the Niger-Congo people in the Nile Valley would explain the close relationship between the Fulani and Egyptian languages; and place Fulani in East Africa.


 -


For example, Jaja, J. M. 2008 “Interdisciplinary Methods for the Writing of “African History: A Reappraisal,” European Journal of Social Sciences 5(4): 55-65
quote:


(2) Niger – Kordofanian homeland
The West African region is largely made up of the Niger-Kordofanian language family. The block of course excludes the 100 or 50 languages classified as Afro-Asiatic and the Songhai and Kanuri languages which belong to the Nile -–Saharan group. The Niger – Kordofanian family is composed of three large blocks called the Mande, Niger – Congo and Kordofanian. Niger – Congo occupies the eastern section of West Africa, Mande the Western section and Kordofanian the area to the south west of Sudan. The present geographical location of these three language blocks forms a fanlike structure, which suggests that their homeland is at the south-western Sahara where the boundaries of each group converge. The Mande group does not have the same degree of internal diversity as the Niger – Congo and Kordofanian. But Niger-Congo and Kordofanian have the same degree of diversity. (Dalby 1965). A combination of this fact and the fan-shaped arrangement of the three language blocks suggests that
they belong to the same main language family. Besides, the unfavourable ecological situation north of the homeland, and the possibility of only moving southwards explains the fan-shaped nature of the dispersal to the area of southwestern Sahara.


Jaja discusses the present location of the speakers of these languages, but like Welmers he situates there homeland in the Sahara near Nubia.

McIntosh, R. J. 1998 The Peoples of the Middle Niger: the Island of Gold Oxford: Blackwell Publishers
quote:


Thus, we have a curious—and complex—pattern of prehistoric occupation in the Méma. There are a few sites demonstrably earlier than c. 4500-4000 BP [3.3-2.5 KBC]. There is a flourit of stone-using communities around 3500-3300 BP [1.9-1.6KBC] (with population injections from the Hodh and the Azawad). Then the region suffers an apparent sharp fall-off of population at c. 800-500 BC (despite a final infusion of Tichitt folk at mid-millennium)..

Does not contradict Welmer’s, all it says is that people from Dar Tichitt entered the area around 800-500 BC, this was hundreds of years after the Mande had established settlement in the Dar Tichitt region.



Roger Blench, Is Niger-Congo simply a branch of Nilo-Saharan, Nilo-Saharan ,(1995) 10:83-128, like Welmer’s noted that :

"Previous writers, noting the concentration of families in West Africa, have tended to assume a location somewhere near the headwaters of the Niger and explained Kordofanian by the migration of a single group. If the present classification is accepted, it becomes far more likely that the homeland was in in the centre of present-daySudan and the Kordofanian represents the Niger-Congo speakers who stayed at home (p.98)."


Roger Blench. 2006. Archaeology, Language, and the African Past New York: Altamira Press
quote:


pp. 132-133. With some misgivings, Table 3.4 puts forward dates and possible motives for expansion for the families of Niger-Congo. The dates are arranged in order of antiquity, not in the hypothetical order suggested by the genetic tree, and, in many cases the two are strongly at variance. There is no necessary correlation between the age of a family estimated from its apparent internal diversity and the date at which it appears to split from the Niger-Congo tree.. .
. . .

MANDE 6000 BP Mande languages have spread from north to south with scattered outliers in Nigeria and Cote d’Ivoire. Mande shares the common Niger-Congo roots for cow and goat, and perhaps the Proto-Mande were an isolated livestock-keeping population at the edge of the desert, which expanded southward as habitat change created potential space for livestock keeping. Reconstructions implying cropping are not present in the protolanguage.


Christopher Ehret. 2000 “Language and History,” in B. Heine and D. Nurse, eds. African Languages.An Introduction pp. 274-297 Canbridge: Cambridge University Press
quote:


p. 294 A second, but still early and important stage in Niger-Congo history was the proto-Mande-Congo era. At this period, or so it appears from the evidence of word histories, the cultivation of the guinea yam and possibly other crops, such as the oil palm, began among at least the peoples of the Atlantic and Ijo-Congo branches of the family (Williamson 1993 proposes the early words for these crops; Greenberg 1964 identifies an Atlantic and Ijo-Congo verb for cultivation, •-lim-). Between possibly about 8000 and 6000 BC, these people spread across the woodland savannahs of West Africa, the natural environment of the Guinea yams. At that time, woodland savannah environments extended several hundred kilometers farther north into the Sudan belt than they do today.


The Blench hypothesis of the Mande living in the Sahara and moving southward does not conflict with my theory of a Saharan origin for the Mande speakers.

The term lim, is not the Mande term to cultivate.


In al-Imfeld, Decolonizing: African Agricultural History (2007) , claims that in relation to African agriculture the cultivation of yam began 10,000 years ago and rice cultivation in Africa by 6000 BC.

The major cultivated crop of the Mande speakers was millet not the yam. The term for cultivation among the Mande was not lim is Proto-Paleo-Afro-Dravidian *be . Millet was probably cultivated over 5000 years ago.

The earliest sites for the cultivation of millet lie in the Sahara . Here the earliest archaeological evidence has been found for African millets.

The major grain exploited by Saharan populations was rice ,the yam and pennisetum. McIntosh and McIntosh (1988) has shown that the principal domesticate in the southern Sahara was bulrush millet (pennisetum). Millet impressions have been found on Mande ceramics from both Karkarchinkat in the Tilemsi Valley of Mali, and Dar Tichitt in Mauritania between 4000 and 3000 BP. (McIntosh & McIntosh 1983a,1988; Winters 1986b; Andah 1981)

The linguistic evidence indicates that the Mande and Dravidian speakers formerly lived in intimate contact , in the Sahara. The speakers of these languages share many terms for agriculture.

Given the archaeological evidence for millets in the Sahara, leads to the corollary theory that if the Dravidians originated in Africa, they would share analogous terms for millet with African groups that formerly lived in the Sahara.

One of the principal groups to use millet in Africa are the Northern Mande speaking people . The Mande speaking people belong to the Niger-Congo group. Most linguist agree that the Mande speakers were the first Niger-Congo group to leave the original Nile Valley and Saharan highland primary homeands of the Niger-Congo speakers.

The Northern Mande speakers are divided into the Soninke and Malinke-Bambara groups. Holl (1985,1989) believes that the founders of the Dhar Tichitt site where millet was cultivated in the 2nd millenium B.C., were northern Mande speakers. To test this theory we will compare Dravidian and Black African agricultural terms, especially Northern Mande. The linguistic evidence suggest that the Proto-Dravidians belonged to an ancient sedentary culture which existed in Saharan Africa. We will call the ancestor of this group Paleo-Dravido-Africans.

The Dravidian terms for millet are listed in the Dravidian Etymological Dictionary at 2359, 4300 and 2671. A cursory review of the linguistic examples provided below from the Dravidian (Kol, Tamil ,Kannanda, & Malayalam ) , Mande and Wolof languages show a close relationship between these language. These terms are outlined below:

code:
Kol                sonna       ---             ---       ----
Wolof (AF.) suna --- ---- ---
Mande (AF) suna bara, baga de-n, doro koro
Tamil connal varaga tinai kural
Malayalam colam varaku tina ---
Kannanda --- baraga, baragu tene korale,korle
*sona *baraga *tenä *kora

Below we will compare other Dravidian and African agricultural terms. These terms come from the Mande languages (Malinke, Kpelle, Bambara, Azer, Soninke), West Atlantic (Wolof, Fulani), Afro-Asiatic (Oromo, Galla), Somali, Nubian and the ancient Egyptian.
The Paleo-Dravido-Africans came from a sedentary culture that domesticated cattle and grew numerous crops including wheat and millet. The Egyptian term for cultivation is Ø b j(w) #. Egyptian Ø b j(w) # corresponds to many African terms for cultivation:
code:
Galla    baji  'cultivated field'
Tulu (Dravidian language) bey, benni
Nubian ba, bat 'hoe up ground'
Malinke be
Somali beer
Wolof mbey, ambey, bey
Egyptian b j(w)
Sumerian buru, bur 'to root up'

These terms for cultivate suggest that the Paleo-African term for cultivate was *be.

The Egyptian term for grain is 0 sa #. This corresponds to many African terms for seed,grain:
code:
Galla          senyi
Malinke se , si
Sumerian se
Egyptian sen 'granary'
Kannanda cigur

Bozo sii
Bambara sii
Daba sisin
Somali sinni
Loma sii
Susu sansi
Oromo sanyi
Dime siimu
Egyptian ssr 'corn'
id. ssn 'lotus plant'
id. sm 'herb, plant'
id. isw 'weeds'

The identification of a s>Ø/#_________e pattern for 'seed,grain' in the above languages suggest that these groups were familiar with seeds at the time they separated into distinct Supersets. The fact that Sumerian Ø se # and Egyptian Ø sen #, and Malinke
Ø se # are all separated both in time and geographical area highlight the early use of seeds * se , by Paleo-Dravido-Africans.


code:
	Rice
Soninke dugo
Vai ko'o
Manding malo
Dravidian mala-kurula
Mende molo, konu
Kpelle moloy
Boko mole
Bisa muhi
Busa mole
Sa mela
Bambara kini

Yam
Bozo ku, kunan
Vai jambi
Malinke ku
Dravidian kui, kuna, ku
Bambara ku

It would appear that all the Proto-Dravidians were familiar with the cultivation of rice, yams and millet. This is not surprising because Weber (1998) made it clear that millet cultivation in ancient South Asia was associated with rice cultivation.

The linguistic evidence clearly show similarities in the Afican and Dravidian terms for plant domesticates. This suggest that these groups early adopted agriculture and made animal domestication secondary to the cultivation of millet, rice and yams. The analogy for the Malinke-Bambara and Dravidians terms for rice, millet and yams suggest a very early date for the domestication of these crops.

In summary, population pressure in the Sahara during a period of increasing hyperaridity forced hunter/gather/fisher Proto-Dravido-African people to first domesticate animals and then crops. The linguistic evidence discussed above indicate that the Proto-Dravido-African people migrated out of the Nile Valley to West African and Harappan sites with millet, yam and rice already recognized as principal domesticated crop.

This comparison of Mande agricultural terms make it clear, that just like the Egyptian term for dog uher , the speakers of these languages share the terms for cultivate, and seed. It also shows that before the Dravidians separated from the Mande speakers these groups were cultivating also cultivating rice and the yam.


The Niger-Congo speakers which include the Fula, Mande and Wolof originated in the Nile Valley—not West Africa. They migrated from East to West. The oral traditions of these people make it clear that when they arrived on the scene pygmy people were already settled in many areas they occupied.


quote:

Wm. E. Welmers. 1971 "Niger-Congo, Mande" in T.A. Sebeok, et al. eds. Linguistics in sub-Saharan Africa (Current Trends in Linguistics, 7), pp. 113-140 The Hague: Mouton

P 119-120. By way of conclusion to this general overview of the Mande languages, a a bit of judicious speculation about Mande origins and migrations may not be out of order. It has already been stated that the Mande languages clearly represent the earliest offshoot from the parent Niger-Congo stock—not counting Kordofanian, which Greenberg considers parallel to all of the Niger-Congo, forming a Niger-Kordofanian macrofamily. An original Niger-Congo homeland in the general vicinity of the upper Nile valley is probably as good a hypothesis as any. From such a homeland, a westward Mande migration may have begun well over 5000 years ago. Perhaps the earliest division within this group resulted in the isolation of what is now represented only by Bobo-fing. Somewhat later— perhaps 3500 to 4500 years ago, and possibly from a new homeland around northern Dahomey [now Benin]— the ancestors of the present Northern-western Mande peoples began pushing farther west, ultimately reaching their present homeland in the grasslands and forests of West Africa. This was followed by a gradual spread of the Southern-Eastern division, culminating perhaps 2000 years ago in the separation of its to branches and the ultimate movement of Southern Mande peoples southeast and westward until Mano and Kpelle, long separated, became once more contiguous.

This reconstruction of Mande prehistory receives striking support from a most unexpected source— dogs. Back in the presumed Niger-Congo homeland—the southern Sudan and northern Uganda of modern times— is found the unique barkless, worried-looking, fleet Basenji, who also appears on ancient Egyptian monuments with the typical bee that compensates for his natural silence. Among the Kpelle and Loma people of Liberia, a breed of dogs is found which is so closely identical to the Basenji that it now recognized as the ‘Liberian Basenji’. In all of the Sudan belt of Africa from the Nile Valley to the Liberian forest, the dogs are somewhat similar in appearance, but very obviously mongrelized. It would appear that the Mande peoples originally took their Basenji dogs with them in their westward migration. At that time, the present Sahara desert was capable of sustaining a substantial population, and was presumably the homeland of the Nilo-Saharan peoples. The early Mande moment thus may have been through uninhabited land, and their dogs were spared any cross-breeding. The farthest westward Mande movement—that of the Southwestern group—was virtually complete before contact with dogs of other breeds. With the gradual drying of the Sahara and the southward movement of the Nilo-Saharan peoples, the remaining Mande peoples, as well as later waves of Niger-Congo migration made contact with other people and other dogs. The present canine population of the Liberian forests thus reflects the very early departure of the Mande peoples from their original homeland, and the subsequent early movement of the Southwestern group towards its present location, without contacting substantial number of unrelated people or dogs.


Liberian Basenji
 -

Egyptian Basenji
 - Egyptian Basenji Dog Hieroglyph

 -

.
Trade might account for the presence of Basenji dogs in both places. But, from the sense of the article, Welmers claims that speakers of other African languages surrounding the Kpelle have different dogs.


The term for Basenji may be uher. In Egyptian uher also means house, so some people claim the Egyptians placed a dog size after uher to denote the term dog.


web page

Niger-Congo hunters probably early domesticated the dog. Hunters used dogs to catch their prey .

Egyptian Hieroglyph
 -


.


Egyptian term for dog corresponds to many African, and Dravidian terms for dog:
.


The above data indicates that there is contrast between Paleo-Afican l =/= r. The Egyptian Ø uher # , Azer Ø wulle # and Manding Ø wuru # suggest that the r > l in Paleo-African.

There is also vowel alternation in the terms for dog o =/= u. The predominance of the vowel /u/ in the terms for dog, make it clear that o<u. This evidence suggest that there are two Paleo-African terms for dog: Paleo-African [PA] *uru and *oro.

Futhermore, this comparison of the term for dog within and among Niger-Congo languages and Egyptian supports Welmers view that the dog was domesticated in the Nile Valley before the speakers of these languages separated, and migrated to other parts of Africa.


The key to science, is that control is used to test the cause of a hypothesis, layman rarely use control, they accept a hypothesis gased on belief and biases.

Finally scientists test relationships to determine their validity. Science is concerned only with things that can be tested and observed.

Let's look at Welmers hypothesis. All research begins with a research question.

Research Question: Where did the Niger Congo speakers originate?

Null hypothesis: There is no relationship between the present location of the Niger-Congo speakers and the original homeland of the speakers of these languages.

Result: The Niger Congo speakers probably originated in the Nile Valley because the Kpelle , who speak a Mande language, have the basanji dog, which was the domesticated dog of the Egyptians and other Nile Valley people.

The hypothesis was further supported by a most interesting finding, that was that the basanji dog is not the hunting dog of other ethnic groups inhabiting areas between the Nile Valley and where the Mande speakers live.

Welmers hypothesis was confirmed. To disconfirm this hypothesis you have to present evidence that nullifies the findings of Welmers.

To test Welmers hypothesis, I compared the Egyptian term for dog and the Mande term for dog. The linguistic evidence supports the physical evidence discussed by Welmer.

Wm. E. Welmers identified the Niger Congo home land. Welmers in "Niger-Congo Mande", Current trends in Linguistics 7 (1971), pp.113-140,explained that the Niger-Congo homeland was in the vicinity of the upper Nile valley (p.119). He believes that the Westward migration began 5000 years ago.

In support of this theory he discusses the dogs of the Niger-Congo speakers. This is the unique barkless Basenji dogs which live in the Sudan and Uganda today, but were formerly recorded on Egyptian monuments (Wlemers,p.119). According to Welmers the Basanji, is related to the Liberian Basenji breed of the Kpelle and Loma people of Liberia. Welmers believes that the Mande took these dogs with them on their migration westward. The Kpelle and Loma speak Mande languages.

He believes that the region was unoccupied when the Mande migrated westward. In support of this theory Welmers' notes that the Liberian Banji dogs ,show no cross-breeding with dogs kept by other African groups in West Africa, and point to the early introduction of this cannine population after the separation of the Mande from the other Niger-Congo speakers in the original upper Nile homeland for this population. As a result, he claims that the Mande migration occured before these groups entered the region.

Linguistic research make it clear that there is a close relationship between the Niger-Congo Superlanguage family and the Nilo-Saharan languages spoken in the Sudan. Heine and Nurse (Eds.), in African languages: An introduction , Cambridge University Press, 2000, discuss the Nilo-Saharan connection. They note that when Westerman (1911) described African languages he used lexical evidence to include the Nilo-Saharan and Niger-Congo languages into a Superfamily he called "Sudanic" (p.16). Using Morphological and lexical similarities Gregerson (1972) indicated that these languages belonged to a macrophylum he named " Kongo-Saharan" (p.16). Research by Blench (1995) reached the same conclusion, and he named this Superfamily: "Niger-Saharan".

Genetic evidence supports the upper Nile origin for the Niger-Congo speakers. Rosa et al, in Y-Chromosomal diversity in the population of Guinea-Bissau (2007), noted that while most Mande & Balanta carry the E3a-M2 gene, there are a number of Felupe-Djola, Papel, Fulbe and Mande carry the M3b*-M35 gene the same as many people in the Sudan.

In conclusion, Welmers proposed an upper Nile (Sudan-Uganda) homeland for the Niger-Congo speakers. He claims that they remained intact until 5000 years ago. This view is supported by linguistic and genetics evidence. The linguistic evidence makes it clear that the Nilo-Saharan and Niger-Congo languages are related. The genetic evidence indicates that Nilo-Saharan and Niger-Congo speakers carry the M3b*-M35 gene, an indicator for the earlier presence of speakers of this language in an original Nile Valley homeland.

In summary Welmer’s makes two key points: 1) the Mande migration began around 3000BC out of the Nile Valley; and 2)Welmers proposed migration from Benin around 1500BC, 1500 years after the initial migration of the Mande from the Nile Valley.

.
 
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
Gaul , Wally thanks for trying to keep this discussion intelligent. It is clear that Explorer is attempting to make real concepts he accept because he believe what ever Europeans say is correct. First the founders of the first Dynasty of Egypt came from the south. They originally lived in the highland regions like Tassili before the are became arid.

As I have noted in previous post and discussed by Diop in relation to Egypt three things exist.

First, the original power in Egypt was the Anu. The Anu were conquered by Narmar.

Secondly, the Berbers did not originate in Africa they are the result of the Vandels and populations from Arabia and only recently arrived on the scene.

Thirdly, the civilization of Egypt came from the South.

Let's begin the discussion


A comparison of Egyptian, Niger-Kordofanian-Mande, Elamite,Dravidian and Sumerian indicates that they diverged from a common ancestor. The Dravidian examples discussed below are taken from Tamil. All of these languages share pronouns and demonstrative bases. (Winters 1989a) This is proven by a compari-son of three terms: chief, city and black.

The above examples from languages spoken by blacks validates Diop's theory that there were cognate black civilizations in Africa and Asia, before the expansion of the Indo-European speaking peoples after 1500 BC. This linguistic data which is outlined in further detail elsewhere (Winters 1985b,1989a) illustrates that a common cultural macrostructure is shared by these speakers, which subsequently evolved along separate lines. Given the genetic unity of these languages we should call this group B(lack) Af(rican), Su(merian), Draa(vidian), (E)lam or Bafsudraalam Superset of languages. This supports Diop's use of the comparative method to illuminate the African past.

Yurco (1989,p.29) also falsely states that the Berber speakers were Libyans. This is false, as proven by Diop (1977). Diop (1977) illustrates that the Berber genealogies place their origin in Saudi Arabia, and point to a very recent settlement (2000 years ago) in the Central Sahara. Diop (1977) believes that the Berbers are the result of the early mixture of Africans and Germanic speaking Vandals. (Diop 1986) This would explain the evident close relationship between the Berber and German languages.

The original inhabitants of the Sahara where the Kemetic civilization originated were Blacks not Berbers or Indo-European speakers. These Blacks formerly lived in the highland regions of the Fezzan and Hoggar until after 4000 BC. This ancient homeland of the Dravidians, Egyptians, Sumerians, Niger-Kordofanian-Mande
and Elamite speakers is called the Fertile African Crescent. (Anselin, 1989, p.16; Winters, 1981,1985b,1991). We call these people the Proto-Saharans (Winters 1985b,1991). The generic term for this group is Kushite. This explains the analogy between the Bafsudraalam languages outlined briefly above. These Proto-Saharans were called Ta-Seti and Tehenu by the Egyptians. Farid(1985,p.82) noted that "We can notice that the beginning of the Neolithic stage in Egypt on the edge of the Western Desert corresponds with the expansion of the Saharian Neolithic culture and the growth of its population". (emphasis that of author).


Kemetic (Egyptian) civilization came from the south not the North as alleged by Yurco (1989). Martel (1992) does admit that Kemetic civilization came from the Saharan Highlands:The Mountains of the Moon, but he failed to admit that Diop's (1974) hypothesis that Kemetic civilization and writing came from the south was proven by the excavations at Qustul. (Williams 1987; Anselin 1989)

The inhabitants of ancient Nubia and Kush are called A-Group, C-Group and etc. by archaeologists. The artifacts found in the A-Group royal cemetery of the Nubians in Ta-Seti at Qustul were the founders of Kem. Bruce Williams (1987,p.173) of the Oriental Institute of the University of Chicago has made it clear that the Qustul pharaohs are the Egyptian rulers referred to as the "Red Crown Rulers".


There are similarities between Egyptian and Saharan motifs (Farid,1985). It was in the Sahara that we find the first evidence of agriculture, animal domestication and weaving (Farid , 1985, p.82). This highland region is the Kemites "Mountain of the Moons " region, the area from which the civilization and goods of Kem, originated.

The rock art of the Saharan Highlands support the Egyptian traditions that in ancient times they lived in the Mountains of the Moon. The Predynastic Egyptian mobiliar art and the Saharan rock art share many common themes including, characteristic boats (Farid 1985,p. 82), men with feathers on their head (Petrie ,1921,pl. xvlll,fig.74; Raphael, 1947, pl.xxiv, fig.10; Vandier , 1952, p.285, fig. 192), false tail hanging from the waist (Vandier, 1952, p.353; Farid, 1985,p.83; Winkler 1938,I, pl.xxlll) and the phallic sheath (Vandier, 1952, p.353; Winkler , 1938,I , pl.xvlll,xx, xxlll).

Due to the appearance of aridity in the Mountains of the Moon the Proto-Saharans migrated first into Nubia and thence into Kem. The Proto-Saharan origin of the Kemites explain the fact that the Kushites were known for maintaining the most ancient traditions of the Kemites as proven when the XXVth Dynasty or Kushite Dynasty ruled ancient Egypt. Farid (1985, p.85) wrote that "To conclude, it seems that among Predynastic foreign relations, the [Proto-]Saharians were the first to have significant contact with the Nile Valley, and even formed a part of the Predynastic population" (emphasis author).

This means that the Nomes probably represent different "states" incorporated into ancient Egypt. It is quite possible that each nome represented a different ethnic group.

If this is true the Egyptian language was probably a lingua franca used to provide a means of communication for the diverse people who lived in ancient Egypt. This would explain why Egyptian was used to write Kushite text until Egyptians migrated into Meroitic lands once Egypt was under the control of the Romans.

Alain Anselin La Question Peule, makes it clear that the Fula originated in Egypt. He supports this theory with the obvious similarity between the words for cattle and milk shared by the Egyptians, Fula and Dravidians (Tamil). He believes that by the 12 Dynasty of Egypt Fula were settled in Egypt.

The Egyptians had many gods. They had these gods because as new ethnicities formed nomes in Egypt they brought their gods with them.

A good example of this amalgamation of various African ethnicities into Egypt is the followers of the god Ra. Some of the first rulers of Egypt saw Ra as the main god.

Later the Egyptians worshipped Aman/Amun which was a Saharan god. ). By the 2nd millennium BC Kushites at kerma were already worshippers of Amon/Amun and they used a distinctive black-and-red ware (Bonnet 1986; Winters 1985b,1991). Amon, later became a major god of the Egyptians during the 18th Dynasty.

A majority of Fula may have remained nomadic, but settled Fula probaly form a major ethnic group in an Egyptian Nome, as did Wolof and Mande speaking people. This is the best way to explain the close genetic linguistic relationship between these groups.

Granted, some Wolof, Mande and Fula made their way to West Africa, but many speakers of these languages remained in Egypt and made up one of the various nomes associated with Egypt.

DNA can tells us little about this period unless they recover DNA from the people living at that time. DNA from living individuals only tell us abou the contemporary group. Not the original people.


.
 
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
 
This doesn't relate directly with the "Egyptian origin of the Fulani" but is a clarification of an idiot's - the explorer's - irrelevant input: This list is for those who would like the information but who are not inclined to look it up - my bad? [Smile]

"You" in Mdu Ntr
ten - 2nd singular. feminine
tenou - 2nd plural
teuten - you
tewi, tu, tut - absolute pronoun.2nd singular
tini
un - you.they.them.their
_ntuten - 2nd person.plural
ntu - those who

"I" in Mdu Ntr
_i - I.me.my
anok
un - we.us
ni - I.me.my
nwi - I.me
---
twn - our
 
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
 
Clyde Winters writes:
quote:

Alain Anselin La Question Peule, makes it clear that the Fula originated in Egypt. He supports this theory with the obvious similarity between the words for cattle and milk shared by the Egyptians, Fula and Dravidians (Tamil). He believes that by the 12 Dynasty of Egypt Fula were settled in Egypt.

The Egyptians had many gods. They had these gods because as new ethnicities formed nomes in Egypt they brought their gods with them.

...Akan, Fanti, Amon...
 
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by a heritageless piece of shyt:


This doesn't relate directly with the "Egyptian origin of the Fulani" but is a clarification of an idiot's - the explorer's - irrelevant input.

This list is for those who would like the information but who are not inclined to look it up - my bad? [Smile]

"You" in Mdu Ntr
ten - 2nd singular. feminine
tenou - 2nd plural
teuten - you
tewi, tu, tut - absolute pronoun.2nd singular
tini
un - you.they.them.their
_ntuten - 2nd person.plural
ntu - those who

"I" in Mdu Ntr
_i - I.me.my
anok
un - we.us
ni - I.me.my
nwi - I.me
---
twn - our

It is mighty good of you to recite what your ass had already been told just several posts ago, which you no less ignored earlier...and even then, still managed to bungle the lexicon ensemble up in your copy & paste effort.

Had you not been a brainless sap and taken note, when I gave you a quick reference to pretty much the same terms you are supposedly listing up above, which you now imagine some imaginary person supposedly asked for, you would have avoided needlessly re-assembling the lexicon in question; now read, pay close attention this time, and learn:

Originally posted by The Explorer:

Just to punch a hole in your rationale, I'll just demonstrate a few examples.

Let's take say, "you" in ancient Egyptian.

A number of words can mean "you" in ancient Egyptian: e.g.-- tw (m, dep.), ntk (m, indep.), tn (f or p, dep.), ntt (f, indep.) or nttn (p, indep.); not to leave out affixed counterparts like -- '-k' (m), '-t' (f), or '-tn' (p).

As one can see, it is more complex than presented in the so-called "Fulani/Mdu ntr" list cited above. None of these are taken into account in Wally's "selective" list.

Another example, let's take "I".

Here too, number of derivatives come to attention:

'Wi/wy' (m, dep.), 'ink' (m, indep.), and affixed -- '-i'.

The same can be demonstrated for several of the other terms listed.


This in fact, is relevant to the topic, and now that you yourself have essentially repeated the list after me, you've discredited your attempt to use your idealistically "selective" singular "derivative" of a lexicon that is the ancient Egyptian equivalent of "you" and "I" respectively, so as to draw a familial link between Fula and ancient Egyptian, even though "You" and "I" in ancient Egyptian are respectively represented by a variety of lexicon with constituent lexicon that don't remotely resemble the initial ones you dogmatically used to make the "Fula - ancient Egyptian comparison". This is the point I was hammering into your head, when it went ignored. And as I noted, those ones I presented were mere examples; similar treatment could be applied to several of the other lexicon in your earlier so-called "Fula-ancient Egyptian" comparison.
 
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
Explorer
quote:


This in fact, is relevant to the topic, and now that you yourself have essentially repeated the list after me, you've discredited your attempt to use your idealistically "selective" singular "derivative" of a lexicon that is the ancient Egyptian equivalent of "you" and "I" respectively, so as to draw a familial link between Fula and ancient Egyptian, even though "You" and "I" in ancient Egyptian are respectively represented by a variety of lexicon with constituent lexicon that don't remotely resemble the initial ones you dogmatically used to make the "Fula - ancient Egyptian comparison". This is the point I was hammering into your head, when it went ignored. And as I noted, those ones I presented were mere examples; similar treatment could be applied to several of the other lexicon in your earlier so-called "Fula-ancient Egyptian" comparison.

You are being ignored because your example of 'you' is irrelevant to this discussion of comparative linguistics. For example in English we can say / you/ in many different ways: Thou, Thee, You, etc. Eventhough /you/, appears to be unrelated to French 'vous'= you they are related.

As a result, when you attempt to use the varying forms of Egyptian that are not related to Fula for the same lexical item 'you' prove nothing because Wally presented examples that show cognation between Egyptian and Fula.

.
 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Do you truly suppose this idle rambling will
obfuscate the fact that primary Egyptian and
Hebrew documents record the ethnonym Israel
and place that ethnic group in Ancient Egypt
while no primary document(s) support a Fulani
ethny either known by AEs or residing in AE?

Well, think again. We're not that slow.


quote:
Originally posted by Wally:
quote:
alTakruri writes:
Although, only the religious take every part of the
Exodus story as historical, most relegate it to the
rank of legend. All legends have a historical core.
Unlike the daydream of Egyptian origins for Fulani no
one seriously disputes that the Israelites...

The Fulani legends of origins in the east and specifically Egypt is exempt from having a historical core and is thus relegated to a daydream...how quaint and utterly contradictory...

quote:


...Daydreamers of Egyptian origins for Fulani or other
non-Egyptian ethnies can produce not a single
ethnonymous use of Tutsi, Akan, Fulani, etc.,
in any primary Rn Mdw document.

You continue to insist on misunderstanding the meaning of these religious terms and gods, and the fact of these names existing in the culture of Ancient Egypt. I'll try and give an example of how one should interpret this:

If you are strolling casually in some nondescript place and run into some kids wearing various garb; one sports a baseball cap with "NY" as a logo, another wears a tee-shirt with a silk-screen painting of the Golden Gate Bridge, another sports a "Lakers" jersey - your first impression is that these kids are either Americans or are heavily influenced by American culture...

The existence of major ethnic groups throughout Africa, who just happen to have self-described ethnic names that are exact replicas of the names of Ancient Egyptian gods is not something that one casually casts aside. This is factual evidence and not legend. I think that most people here got this the first time around...


 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
This is all well and true about the ultimate affinity and
single birthing locale for the non-"Khoisan" languages of
Africa in their proto forms, but would not that mean that
there were neither Egyptians nor Fulani nor not many other
recent African ethnies at that far remote place and time in
the history of our people?


quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
There is controversy surrounding the homeland of Niger-Congo. But most linguist place the homeland for this linguistic group in the Nile Valley. An origin of the Niger-Congo people in the Nile Valley would explain the close relationship between the Fulani and Egyptian languages; and place Fulani in East Africa.

[further references left out in deference to storage
and bandwidth but can be accessed in Dr. Winters'
original post above]


 
Posted by The Gaul (Member # 16198) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
This is all well and true about the ultimate affinity and
single birthing locale for the non-"Khoisan" languages of
Africa in their proto forms, but would not that mean that
there were neither Egyptians nor Fulani nor not many other
recent African ethnies at that far remote place and time in
the history of our people?


quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
There is controversy surrounding the homeland of Niger-Congo. But most linguist place the homeland for this linguistic group in the Nile Valley. An origin of the Niger-Congo people in the Nile Valley would explain the close relationship between the Fulani and Egyptian languages; and place Fulani in East Africa.

[further references left out in deference to storage
and bandwidth but can be accessed in Dr. Winters'
original post above]


I think we allow ourselves to fall into a trap set forth mainly by non-Africans, i.e. Explorer, in erroneously believing that showing a link to the NV somehow relegates all of our other African kingdoms and societies to "doormat" status in comparison to AE. Completely mis-guided and a falsehood.

The central point is to show the interrelatedness and affinites of many, if not ALL African people in which one of the points of high concentration, at one point in time, was the Nile Valley. Despite the well documaneted diversity of Africa and Africans, the Nile Valley is one area where similarities can be highlighted to show that we are "one". This is what has been well documented by our African scholars and is the central point being put forth here, specifically with Fulani in this thread.

This does NOT stretch so far back in time as it would pre-date man leaving Africa to populate the rest of the world, and does NOT suggest all africans left the Nile Valley or highlands of the Sahara at the same time, as Dhar Tichitt is an prime example with the Mande.
 
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

You are being ignored because your example of 'you' is irrelevant to this discussion of comparative linguistics.

You seem to be mistranslating my reference to Wally's cowardice as my supposed anxiety over "being ignored". You're funny, but get a clue.

And no, "my example" of "you" is quite relevant for reasons stated. Any idiot knows what I said, and so, I don't intend to repeat for those beyond said idiocy.


quote:


For example in English we can say / you/ in many different ways: Thou, Thee, You, etc. Eventhough /you/, appears to be unrelated to French 'vous'= you they are related.

The burden lies on you, to point out from the "variety" of lexicons out there for the ancient Egyptian equivalent of "you", how Wally's initial *highly idealistic* cherry-picking of just one supposed term for "you" [when there are obviously many others to examine] is the "authentic" ancient Egyptian term for "you" whereas the others, that I listed which Wally himself repeated after me, are less "authentic", and hence irrelevant, along with the point I made in tandem with listing them. Talk is cheap.

Note: And if you can read at all, you'll notice that there are at least three different independent pronoun manifestations of "you" in ancient Egyptian, all of which differ markedly from Wally's "choice" lexicon for the so-called Fula-ancient Egyptian comparison. Dare I ask you, what that means?


quote:


As a result, when you attempt to use the varying forms of Egyptian that are not related to Fula for the same lexical item 'you' prove nothing because Wally presented examples that show cognation between Egyptian and Fula.

Well, I prove "nothing" only to morons who cannot read, and hence, miss the point; but for those who can read, oh absolutely, my point is concise, loud and clear. [Cool]
 
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Wally:

...for starters here's some linguistic data comparing Fulani / Mdu Ntr...

I - mi / ni
you - on / un
we - en / un
they - be / bu (people)
to be bad - bonude / boone
bad - boni / bon
death; to die - maayde;maayude / maati, moute, moout, mouti
last year - rawanen / snouf; ronpe
eye - yitere / eirti
blessing - barka / baraka
cow - nagge / naga
father - baaba / baba
...
the evidence is inexhaustible...

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

You are being ignored because your example of 'you' is irrelevant to this discussion of comparative linguistics.

You seem to be mistranslating my reference to Wally's cowardice as my supposed anxiety over "being ignored". You're funny, but get a clue.

And no, "my example" of "you" is quite relevant for reasons stated. Any idiot knows what I said, and so, I don't intend to repeat for those beyond said idiocy.


quote:


For example in English we can say / you/ in many different ways: Thou, Thee, You, etc. Eventhough /you/, appears to be unrelated to French 'vous'= you they are related.

The burden lies on you, to point out from the "variety" of lexicons out there for the ancient Egyptian equivalent of "you", how Wally's initial *highly idealistic* cherry-picking of just one supposed term for "you" [when there are obviously many others to examine] is the "authentic" ancient Egyptian term for "you" whereas the others, that I listed which Wally himself repeated after me, are less "authentic", and hence irrelevant, along with the point I made in tandem with listing them. Talk is cheap.

Note: And if you can read at all, you'll notice that there are at least three different independent pronoun manifestations of "you" in ancient Egyptian, all of which differ markedly from Wally's "choice" lexicon for the so-called Fula-ancient Egyptian comparison. Dare I ask you, what that means?


quote:


As a result, when you attempt to use the varying forms of Egyptian that are not related to Fula for the same lexical item 'you' prove nothing because Wally presented examples that show cognation between Egyptian and Fula.

Well, I prove "nothing" only to morons who cannot read, and hence, miss the point; but for those who can read, oh absolutely, my point is concise, loud and clear. [Cool]

your example of 'you' is irrelevant to this discussion of comparative linguistics. For example in English we can say / you/ in many different ways: Thou, Thee, You, etc. Eventhough /you/, appears to be unrelated to French 'vous'= you they are related.

As a result, when you attempt to use the varying forms of Egyptian that are not related to Fula for the same lexical item 'you' prove nothing because Wally presented examples that show cognation between Egyptian and Fula.

You have presented no evidence disputing these facts. All you provide is venom and insult. Material only the ignorant accept as valid and reliable. You sad angrey white boy pretending to be African.


 -


.
 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Those of us long conversant with the facts know
the major phyla of Africa did not develop until long
after the Out-of-Africa events that populated the
non-African world.

Thus it is pointless to mention "This does NOT
stretch so far back in time as it would pre-date
man leaving Africa to populate the rest of the
world,"
because, really, who doesn't know that
already?

The fact remains it was a far remote time and place
when and where the great trunk that branched the
proto forms of the non-"Khoisan" phyla. Their genesis
in the Middle Nile Valley predates Egyptian civilization
by as much as 15,000 years thus resemblances of languages
on opposite sides of the continent are not explainable
by near recent demic diffusion unless there exists an
historic or genetic register of the event.

Despite the ethno-archaeological fact of Fulani cultural
attributes first appearing in Late Stone Age south east
Algeria, some continue to posit an Ancient Egyptian origin
as late as the 12th or even the 18th dynasty. Now how
anachronistic can an argument be then that?

In general the current Sahara, sahel, savannah and most
woodland West African ethnies were resident in the Green
Sahara from which they moved south and southwest to
where they are now found.

No matter how tempered down from the original premise,
that all West Africans and their languages originate in
Ancient Egyptian migrations, to just now saying a select
few did so, it remains a false premise.

Everything we historically know about the Fulani leads
us to the conclusion of a Green Saharan origin followed
by nature generated southwest drift over the millenia to
the Hodh and the Senegal, from whence in recent written
historic times they consciously migrated eastward settling
in the Nile Valley no more that 200 years ago at best.

We have a non-African, Lilias Homburger, to thank for
the first proclamation of non-"Khoisan" languages being
all related. So being African or non-African has no
bearing on facts. Facts stand regardless of the ethnicity,
nationality, continental origin, or skin colour of the
bearer of the facts.

Appeal to racial solidarity does not strengthen an
argument. Cultural ideology will and does make history.
Cultural ideology cannot and does not replace history.

This is why Europe's cultural ideology on Africa no
longer matters, because it is over ruled by facts which
are now much more readily available to the general public
than before.

Likewise an offbase African cultural ideology cannot
stand because readily available facts will undermine it.
Offbase African cultural ideology only blinds and deafens
those little exposed to African reality when they discover
the errors and wrongly assume African studies is a house
of cards.

This is a disservice to valid African cultural ideologies
based on valid and reputable information. This is the
greatest task that now faces our people, to shun a
fanciful African history just as we rejected the deragatory
European history of Africa.

Yes there are bold propositions to be made. Before accepting
them they must be bound by a cable stranded from cold
hard facts.

Our African cultural ideology must be onbase, a base of unassailable fact.


quote:
Originally posted by The Gaul:
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
This is all well and true about the ultimate affinity and
single birthing locale for the non-"Khoisan" languages of
Africa in their proto forms, but would not that mean that
there were neither Egyptians nor Fulani nor not many other
recent African ethnies at that far remote place and time in
the history of our people?


quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
There is controversy surrounding the homeland of Niger-Congo. But most linguist place the homeland for this linguistic group in the Nile Valley. An origin of the Niger-Congo people in the Nile Valley would explain the close relationship between the Fulani and Egyptian languages; and place Fulani in East Africa.

[further references left out in deference to storage
and bandwidth but can be accessed in Dr. Winters'
original post above]


I think we allow ourselves to fall into a trap set forth mainly by non-Africans, i.e. Explorer, in erroneously believing that showing a link to the NV somehow relegates all of our other African kingdoms and societies to "doormat" status in comparison to AE. Completely mis-guided and a falsehood.

The central point is to show the interrelatedness and affinites of many, if not ALL African people in which one of the points of high concentration, at one point in time, was the Nile Valley. Despite the well documaneted diversity of Africa and Africans, the Nile Valley is one area where similarities can be highlighted to show that we are "one". This is what has been well documented by our African scholars and is the central point being put forth here, specifically with Fulani in this thread.

This does NOT stretch so far back in time as it would pre-date man leaving Africa to populate the rest of the world, and does NOT suggest all africans left the Nile Valley or highlands of the Sahara at the same time, as Dhar Tichitt is an prime example with the Mande.


 
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
 
alTakruri...

In far less space and probably time than your exhaustive response, a more concise and erudite analysis of the topic of this post was presented by The Gaul:
quote:
I think we allow ourselves to fall into a trap set forth mainly by non-Africans, i.e. Explorer, in erroneously believing that showing a link to the NV somehow relegates all of our other African kingdoms and societies to "doormat" status in comparison to AE. Completely mis-guided and a falsehood.

The central point is to show the interrelatedness and affinites of many, if not ALL African people in which one of the points of high concentration, at one point in time, was the Nile Valley. Despite the well documented diversity of Africa and Africans, the Nile Valley is one area where similarities can be highlighted to show that we are "one". This is what has been well documented by our African scholars and is the central point being put forth here, specifically with Fulani in this thread.

This does NOT stretch so far back in time as it would pre-date man leaving Africa to populate the rest of the world, and does NOT suggest all africans left the Nile Valley or highlands of the Sahara at the same time, as Dhar Tichitt is an prime example with the Mande.

...to which your response added essentially nothing, man; except perhaps to suggest that the ancestors of West Africans were mono-directional or just simple-minded:
quote:

In general the current Sahara, sahel, savannah and most
woodland West African ethnies were resident in the Green
Sahara from which they moved south and southwest to
where they are now found.

You are trying to convince us that of all the directions of the compass available to them, they only knew to travel towards the Atlantic seaboard, that they were too simple to realize that the fertile Nile Valley regions were right down the hill aways...unlike the crusty Aamu folks from Asia who crossed the harsh deserts in order to live in the fetid marsh-lands of the Delta under the shadows of Kememou forts built to keep them out...perhaps it was there dream as well to eventually find the Atlantic seaboard of West Africa...
 
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
Those of us long conversant with the facts know
the major phyla of Africa did not develop until long
after the Out-of-Africa events that populated the
non-African world.

Thus it is pointless to mention "This does NOT
stretch so far back in time as it would pre-date
man leaving Africa to populate the rest of the
world,"
because, really, who doesn't know that
already?

The fact remains it was a far remote time and place
when and where the great trunk that branched the
proto forms of the non-"Khoisan" phyla. Their genesis
in the Middle Nile Valley predates Egyptian civilization
by as much as 15,000 years thus resemblances of languages
on opposite sides of the continent are not explainable
by near recent demic diffusion unless there exists an
historic or genetic register of the event.

Despite the ethno-archaeological fact of Fulani cultural
attributes first appearing in Late Stone Age south east
Algeria, some continue to posit an Ancient Egyptian origin
as late as the 12th or even the 18th dynasty. Now how
anachronistic can an argument be then that?

In general the current Sahara, sahel, savannah and most
woodland West African ethnies were resident in the Green
Sahara from which they moved south and southwest to
where they are now found.

No matter how tempered down from the original premise,
that all West Africans and their languages originate in
Ancient Egyptian migrations, to just now saying a select
few did so, it remains a false premise.

Everything we historically know about the Fulani leads
us to the conclusion of a Green Saharan origin followed
by nature generated southwest drift over the millenia to
the Hodh and the Senegal, from whence in recent written
historic times they consciously migrated eastward settling
in the Nile Valley no more that 200 years ago at best.

We have a non-African, Lilias Homburger, to thank for
the first proclamation of non-"Khoisan" languages being
all related. So being African or non-African has no
bearing on facts. Facts stand regardless of the ethnicity,
nationality, continental origin, or skin colour of the
bearer of the facts.

Appeal to racial solidarity does not strengthen an
argument. Cultural ideology will and does make history.
Cultural ideology cannot and does not replace history.

This is why Europe's cultural ideology on Africa no
longer matters, because it is over ruled by facts which
are now much more readily available to the general public
than before.

Likewise an offbase African cultural ideology cannot
stand because readily available facts will undermine it.
Offbase African cultural ideology only blinds and deafens
those little exposed to African reality when they discover
the errors and wrongly assume African studies is a house
of cards.

This is a disservice to valid African cultural ideologies
based on valid and reputable information. This is the
greatest task that now faces our people, to shun a
fanciful African history just as we rejected the deragatory
European history of Africa.

Yes there are bold propositions to be made. Before accepting
them they must be bound by a cable stranded from cold
hard facts.

Our African cultural ideology must be onbase, a base of unassailable fact.


[/QB][/QUOTE]

That is why we know the people went into Nubia first, then up the Nile into Egypt and then westward.

You have presented no evidence showing an immediate westward migration of the Niger-Congo speakers, including the Fula.

What we do know is that ancient Egypt was divided into nomes and each nome had its own god. The gods of some of these nomes illustrated by Wally are contemporary ethnonyms. This suggest that the people living in these nomes were original West Africans. This is most simple and congruent fact to explain the genetic unity between Egyptian and black African languages. Granted, some Fula probably remained in Algeria and the Fezzan at Oasis and even moved westward. But at least as late as the 12th Dynasty many Fula were still in Egypt, and during the Roman period the Fula probably expanded westward and eastward in search of pastures for their cattle and families.

.
 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
There are no cultural-archaeological traits such as
existed in LSA SEA. The next place the sam traits
do appear is in the historic Western Sudan. In
between the display of said traits we have northern
Mande epic poetry describing Fulani.

I have wrote this several times and it cannot be blown
away and it serves to show drifting southwest movement
from the Green Sahara to the Hodh and the Senegal over
the millenia, gradually.

No one has presented cultural-archaeological evidence
for either purposeful migration or unintentional drift
eastward from LSA SEA of Fulani. There is no such set
of evidence and even if there were it would still show
origination in LSA SEA not Egypt thus disspelling the
topic header, The Egyptian Origin of the Fulani.

Even the cited quotes you produced earlier, ones not
from Welmer, all speak to a Saharan starting place
not a Nile Valley one. And sticking to the subject
header, The Egyptian Origin of the Fulani, the
Upper Nile Valley is not Egypt. The Upper Nile Valley
is Rwanda, Uganda, Congo and far south Sudan.

But please produce records from 12th dynasty Egypt
of a wholescale migration westward of people bearing
Fulani cultural traits. This is the only thing that will
prove Fulani were in 12th dynasty Egypt. You know,
of course, they could not have originated in 12th
dynasty Egypt when the first record of anything
like Fulani debuts 1800 miles away and roughly
3000 years earlier.
 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
If they were original West Africans how could have
an Egyptian origin?

Origin starts in one place.

If they remained in Algeria then they did not originate
in Egypt. If they were in a nome in Egypt then they
were cattle ranchers not transhumants in search of
pasturage.

The hole is getting deeper and deeper.

quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


... the people living in these nomes were original West Africans.

... some Fula probably remained in Algeria

... during the Roman period the Fula probably expanded westward and eastward in search of pastures ...


 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Yes this is factual and totally negates this thread's
header The Egyptian Origin of the Fulani. The Saharan
Highlands are not in Egypt.

And since you say the Fula "originated in [the] Highlands
of the Sahara,"
then they didn't originate in Egypt by what
you yourself submitted.


quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


The Fula, Dogon and etc. all belong to the same language family. The evidence makes it clear these people originated in Highlands of the Sahara.


 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Jaja does not "situate[ their] homeland in the
Sahara near Nubia" as was said. For his three
blocks of Niger-Kordofanian I quote Jaja saying
"their homeland is at the south-western Sahara
where the boundaries of each group converge."


Furthermore Jaja notes "the unfavourable ecological
situation north of the homeland, and the possibility
of only moving southwards
explains the fan-shaped
nature of the dispersal to the area of
southwestern
Sahara
."

Jaja nowhere posits a Niger-Kordofanian homeland
in Nubia. Kordofanian, perhaps the oldest language
in Sudan, is spoken in the Nuba Mountains 700 miles
far upriver from Nubia.

 -  -

But let us now examine Jaja on West African languages and Egypt.

quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


Jaja, J. M. 2008 “Interdisciplinary Methods for the Writing of “African History: A Reappraisal,” European Journal of Social Sciences 5(4): 55-65
quote:


(2) Niger – Kordofanian homeland
The West African region is largely made up of the Niger-Kordofanian language family. The block of course excludes the 100 or 50 languages classified as Afro-Asiatic and the Songhai and Kanuri languages which belong to the Nile -–Saharan group.

The Niger – Kordofanian family is composed of three large blocks called the
* Mande,
* Niger – Congo and
* Kordofanian.

*
Niger – Congo occupies the eastern section of West Africa,
*
Mande the Western section and
*
Kordofanian the area to the south west of Sudan.

The present geographical location of these three language blocks forms a fanlike structure, which suggests that their homeland is at the south-western Sahara where the boundaries of each group converge. The Mande group does not have the same degree of internal diversity as the Niger – Congo and Kordofanian. But Niger-Congo and Kordofanian have the same degree of diversity. (Dalby 1965). A combination of this fact and the fan-shaped arrangement of the three language blocks suggests that
they belong to the same main language family.

Besides, the unfavourable ecological situation north of the homeland, and the possibility of only moving southwards explains the fan-shaped nature of the dispersal to the area of southwestern Sahara.


Jaja discusses the present location of the speakers of these languages, but like Welmers he situates there homeland in the Sahara near Nubia.



 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
quote:

The Contribution of Linguistics to the Study of Origins in West Africa


. . . .

Linguistic evidence was also significant in determining the origin of the Yoruba people.
Popular writings from the 1920s to the present suggest that the Yorubas originated from
Egypt or from Arabia. However, with the help of linguistic techniques we are now aware
that;
  1. There is virtually little or no similarity in the basic core vocabulary of Yoruba and
    Ancient Egyptian or between Yoruba and Arabic.
  2. There is rather a very high degree of similarity between Yoruba and Igala
  3. There is a fairly high degree of similarity in the basic vocabulary between Yoruba,
    Edo, Igbo, Idoma, Igbira and Nupe.
From these three results we can conclude that the origin of the Yorubas i.e. not in Egypt or in
the Middle East, but rather within the vicinity of the languages that are similar to the Yoruba language.
This vicinity is in Southern and South Central Nigeria.


Jones M. Jaja
Interdisciplinary Methods for the Writing of
African History: A Reappraisal

European Journal of Social Sciences – Volume 5, Number 4 (2008)
p.58


Let's go on to see what he has to say about Fulani.
 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
quote:

Linguistic evidence has also been used to refute the tradition that the Fulani people originated from Arabia. There is virtually zero similarity between Fulfulde and Arabic. On the contrary Fulfulde is closely related to Wolof and Serer both of which belong to the West Atlantic language family which is a branch of Niger – Kordofanian. Thus the Fulani people should trace their origin to the Senegal valley rather than to the Middle East.


op. cit. pp.58-59

Jaja fails to back the thread header The Egyptian
Origin of the Fulani
. Jaja supports local origins.
 
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
If they were original West Africans how could have
an Egyptian origin?

Origin starts in one place.

If they remained in Algeria then they did not originate
in Egypt. If they were in a nome in Egypt then they
were cattle ranchers not transhumants in search of
pasturage.

The hole is getting deeper and deeper.

quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


... the people living in these nomes were original West Africans.

... some Fula probably remained in Algeria

... during the Roman period the Fula probably expanded westward and eastward in search of pastures ...


They are the original West Africans because they lived in Egypt and now dominate West Africa.


This is a stupid comment. As you know none of the Dynastic Egyptians originated in "Egypt" the archaeology makes it clear the Egyptians came from the highlands, migrated into Kush and move from the south into the area we call Dynastic Egypt.

Testimony of this Kushite origin is the Ta Seti Incense burner


 -


.
 
Posted by akoben (Member # 15244) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
This is a stupid comment. As you know none of the Dynastic Egyptians originated in "Egypt" the archaeology makes it clear the Egyptians came from the highlands, migrated into Kush and move from the south into the area we call Dynastic Egypt.

^ good point.
 
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
Jaja does not "situate[ their] homeland in the
Sahara near Nubia" as was said. For his three
blocks of Niger-Kordofanian I quote Jaja saying
"their homeland is at the south-western Sahara
where the boundaries of each group converge."


Furthermore Jaja notes "the unfavourable ecological
situation north of the homeland, and the possibility
of only moving southwards
explains the fan-shaped
nature of the dispersal to the area of
southwestern
Sahara
."

Jaja nowhere posits a Niger-Kordofanian homeland
in Nubia. Kordofanian, perhaps the oldest language
in Sudan, is spoken in the Nuba Mountains 700 miles
far upriver from Nubia.

 -  -

But let us now examine Jaja on West African languages and Egypt.

quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


Jaja, J. M. 2008 “Interdisciplinary Methods for the Writing of “African History: A Reappraisal,” European Journal of Social Sciences 5(4): 55-65
quote:


(2) Niger – Kordofanian homeland
The West African region is largely made up of the Niger-Kordofanian language family. The block of course excludes the 100 or 50 languages classified as Afro-Asiatic and the Songhai and Kanuri languages which belong to the Nile -–Saharan group.

The Niger – Kordofanian family is composed of three large blocks called the
* Mande,
* Niger – Congo and
* Kordofanian.

*
Niger – Congo occupies the eastern section of West Africa,
*
Mande the Western section and
*
Kordofanian the area to the south west of Sudan.

The present geographical location of these three language blocks forms a fanlike structure, which suggests that their homeland is at the south-western Sahara where the boundaries of each group converge. The Mande group does not have the same degree of internal diversity as the Niger – Congo and Kordofanian. But Niger-Congo and Kordofanian have the same degree of diversity. (Dalby 1965). A combination of this fact and the fan-shaped arrangement of the three language blocks suggests that
they belong to the same main language family.

Besides, the unfavourable ecological situation north of the homeland, and the possibility of only moving southwards explains the fan-shaped nature of the dispersal to the area of southwestern Sahara.


Jaja discusses the present location of the speakers of these languages, but like Welmers he situates there homeland in the Sahara near Nubia.



The present location of the Mande says little about their original home. For example we see them moving into the Niger Valley from Mauretania. This does little to deny a Nubia origin for the Mande, just like the people who founded Egypt.

.
 
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
quote:

The Contribution of Linguistics to the Study of Origins in West Africa


. . . .

Linguistic evidence was also significant in determining the origin of the Yoruba people.
Popular writings from the 1920s to the present suggest that the Yorubas originated from
Egypt or from Arabia. However, with the help of linguistic techniques we are now aware
that;
  1. There is virtually little or no similarity in the basic core vocabulary of Yoruba and
    Ancient Egyptian or between Yoruba and Arabic.
  2. There is rather a very high degree of similarity between Yoruba and Igala
  3. There is a fairly high degree of similarity in the basic vocabulary between Yoruba,
    Edo, Igbo, Idoma, Igbira and Nupe.
From these three results we can conclude that the origin of the Yorubas i.e. not in Egypt or in
the Middle East, but rather within the vicinity of the languages that are similar to the Yoruba language.
This vicinity is in Southern and South Central Nigeria.


Jones M. Jaja
Interdisciplinary Methods for the Writing of
African History: A Reappraisal

European Journal of Social Sciences – Volume 5, Number 4 (2008)
p.58


Let's go on to see what he has to say about Fulani.
Please answer these questions:

What linguistic evidence does JaJa present which led him to reach this conclusion?

Did he provide evidence that Egyptian and Yoruba lack cognate terms?

If he did please provide examples of the terms he used to make this determination.

If he provides no evidence this is just another example of an African writing material attacking Afrocentrism so they can be published. Wally provides linguistic evidence supporting his claim.

To counter this claim you must provide counter linguistic evidence--not opinions.

.
 
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
quote:

Linguistic evidence has also been used to refute the tradition that the Fulani people originated from Arabia. There is virtually zero similarity between Fulfulde and Arabic. On the contrary Fulfulde is closely related to Wolof and Serer both of which belong to the West Atlantic language family which is a branch of Niger – Kordofanian. Thus the Fulani people should trace their origin to the Senegal valley rather than to the Middle East.


op. cit. pp.58-59

Jaja fails to back the thread header The Egyptian
Origin of the Fulani
. Jaja supports local origins.

What linguistic evidence does Jaja provide to support this view?

This is circular reasoning. You admit that Diop has presented hundreds of Wolof terms that are related to Egyptian. If we use Jaja's reasoning we must declare that since Fula is related to Wolof, and Wolof is related to Egyptian, Fula is related to Egyptian.

In this thread we have not made this silly argument. We have presented linguistic and other data supporting the Egyptian origin of the Fula and that the Fula did not originate in West Africa. In fact, none of the West Atlantic languages originated in West Africa.

.
 
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
 
Clyde,

Come on here and make your 'discredited" self useful for a moment: Can I get an *elaborate* grammatical and syntax correspondence between Fula and Ancient Egyptian?
 
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
 
Yoruba / Egyptian

a-dua / dua or tua = "prayer"
a-gu-ta(n) / ha-khu-ptah
a-ke / qe-h = "axe"
a-ru-gbo / ru-ba = "evening of ba i.e. later stage of life"
abo / ab = "female"
ade / ate-f = "crown/plumes"
ako / ak = "male"
ala / ala = "boundary - obatala==king of nile"
amon / amon = "to hide/concealed"
apoti / apoti = "pot; cup"
bu buru / bu huru = "evil"
enen / enen = "no"
fahaka / fahaka = "silvery fish"
hen / hen = "yes; nod head"
hor / hor = "elevated"
i-re / re = "that which is good, goodness"
ibatan / bahtan = "compatriot"
inoki / noki-t = "fabulous beast"
ko / qo-t = "build"
miri / miri = "water" dazzle(of water)
naprit / naprit = "seed"
nu (noo) / nu (noo) = = "to wipe, erase"
o-ni / au-nu = = "crocodile"
oba = king / oba = "to direct, captain"
oni = king / oni = "osiris' ethnic name"
ran / ran = "name"
riri / ririt = "dirty (like a hippo)"
sadu / zaddu = "abode of the dead"
saluga / salug = "god of wealth"
wombia / nubia = "you, a nubian" - derogatory - "a covetous person"
wu / uu = "swell"


The Yoruba phrase "apa amu sua", which means "an unthrifty person" is derived from three Ancient Egyptian words:

Apa - "he who belongs to the house i.e. servant"

Amu - one of the Asiatic tribes engaged in domestic service in Ancient Egypt

Sua (Sua-nit), a nome in Ancient Egypt.

The phrase is a comtemptuous term which preserves the idea of the wastefulness of foreign domestic servants in Ancient Egypt who hardly knew the value of crockery and other articles they sometimes smashed to pieces.

The word "bu" in AE means "place". This word survives in Yoruba vocabulary:

"ki bu e e" means "what place are you going?"
"ibudo" means "a place to settle"
"ibusun" means "a place to sleep"
"ibu-joko" means "a place to sit"
"ibu-so" means "a station"
"a-bu-le" means "premises"

The connection bewteen the two languages is so close that it is quite possible for one to help in determining the siginifcance of words whose meanings have not yet been definitely ascertained or have become obscure in the other!

There is a survival of customs

- Religious beliefs. Most of the prinicpal gods are well known: Osiris, Isis, Horus, Shu, Sut, Thoth, Kepera, Amon, Anu, Khonsu, Khnum, Khopri, Hathor, Sokaris, Ra, Seb, the 4 elmental deities etc.

-- Ra survives in name only, but the words Irawo (star), rara (swear by Ra), rara (dwarfs - Ancient Egyptian mythological Tanka dwarfs that hailed the daily arrival of the sun-god) preserve the idea.

-- The idea of a future life and that of judgement after death

-- The deification of Kings.

-- The importance attached to names. A man's name is supposed to have a real force in determining his character. Names are not given haphazardly, but acording to prevailing circumstances at the time of birth.

-- Strong belief in a future life. The Ancient Egyptian and Yoruba ideas are identical. The Yoruba word for the verb "too die" is Ku, i.e. to become a luminous spirit. The Egyptian word Khu, or the luminous part of a man, "is a spark of that divine intelligence which pervades the world and to which it must return"

-- Polygamy - similarity in the position of the first wife and her rights and privileges

-- Burial customs. Previous to burial the corpse in Yorubaland is dressed like the Egyptian mummy. In the case of the burial of the king, the king slaves must be buried with him, and his Chief Officers and wives must die on the day of the burial. The king will require the services of his dependents in the next world. The British influence has put an end to such practices. Ushebti figures are now substitued for living persons.
 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Amazing! Jaja was fine without a background check
when you incorrectly used him but now that we see
clearly that Jaja disfavors diffusion you doubt his
scholarship.

Remember it was you who erected Jaja as a champion
of diffusion. Had you carefully and entirely read
what he wrote maybe you wouldn't now be spreading
propaganda over his name.

Can't attack the ideas? Then attack the man holding them.

Nowhere does Jaja so much as mention any Afri-eccentricism.

Jaja explicitly attacked European cultural idelogy
applied to Africana. A strange way to go about "just
to get published" especially in a journal with Europe
in its title. Sorry, your grandstanding was misapplied,
but your anti-African bias remains as strong as ever.


quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Please answer these questions:

What linguistic evidence does JaJa present which led him to reach this conclusion?

Did he provide evidence that Egyptian and Yoruba lack cognate terms?

If he did please provide examples of the terms he used to make this determination.

If he provides no evidence this is just another example of an African writing material attacking Afrocentrism so they can be published. Wally provides linguistic evidence supporting his claim.

To counter this claim you must provide counter linguistic evidence--not opinions.

.


 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
From Jaja op cit pp.55, 64

The Need for Interdisciplinary Techniques
3)(a) The foreign texts, apart from being too recent, are sometimes too biased because
they were written by Arab and European Imperialists who used them to justify their
political activities in Africa.

Summary and Conclusion
It is now crystal clear that interdisciplinary techniques are indispensable for the writing of African
history. The poverty of relying only on one or two methods (i.e. written and recently oral sources) has
reached a disturbing situation because of the enormous historical information/data in the continent, left
untapped. Our historical approach has uncovered inertia on the part of historians on the new methods
for reconstructing and analyzing human affairs. We are aware that before the 1960s the goal of African
historians had been nationalistic, that is an attempt to correct the negative account of European scholars and expose the achievements of Africans in notion building and statecraft (Jaja, 2005b)[11].

In reconstructing the monumental distortions of European scholars, it became obvious that the
blatant and overt prejudice may be based on ignorance, informed by their inability to utilize various
other sources rich in history of these traditional societies. There is no doubt that the interdisciplinary
methods identified above increasingly subjected European accounts into scrutiny, their activities
became unfashionable subjects for research as a means of monitoring European and African reactions.
But more importantly interdisciplinary methods had helped Africans discover themselves more, their
homeland, their language and material culture.

[11] Jaja, J.M. (2005b) The Challenge of change: The Nigerian Historian and Nigerian’s
Transformation in Sophia: An African Journal of Philosophy vol. 6 No.1.

quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
... this is just another example of an African writing material attacking Afrocentrism so they can be published.


 
Posted by akoben (Member # 15244) on :
 
^ You're so full of sh!t. Why didn't you just answer the questions put forward by Dr. Winters instead of diversions above? Can you be truly satisfied with your source because Winters misread him initially as you claim?
 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Let Dr. Winters answer them himself in regards to
support of what he OKed from Jones. Evidently he
felt confident of Jones scholarship without so
much as doing then what he asks me to do now.

If you really want to know more, send Jaja an email.
 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Let Dr. Winters answer them himself in regards to
support of what he OKed from Jaja. Evidently, he
felt confident of Jaja's researches without so
much as doing then what he asks me to do now.

If you really want to know more, send Jaja an email.
 
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
Amazing! Jaja was fine without a background check
when you incorrectly used him but now that we see
clearly that Jaja disfavors diffusion you doubt his
scholarship.

Remember it was you who erected Jaja as a champion
of diffusion. Had you carefully and entirely read
what he wrote maybe you wouldn't now be spreading
propaganda over his name.

Can't attack the ideas? Then attack the man holding them.

Nowhere does Jaja so much as mention any Afri-eccentricism.

Jaja explicitly attacked European cultural idelogy
applied to Africana. A strange way to go about "just
to get published" especially in a journal with Europe
in its title. Sorry, your grandstanding was misapplied,
but your anti-African bias remains as strong as ever.


quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Please answer these questions:

What linguistic evidence does JaJa present which led him to reach this conclusion?

Did he provide evidence that Egyptian and Yoruba lack cognate terms?

If he did please provide examples of the terms he used to make this determination.

If he provides no evidence this is just another example of an African writing material attacking Afrocentrism so they can be published. Wally provides linguistic evidence supporting his claim.

To counter this claim you must provide counter linguistic evidence--not opinions.

.


I am waiting for your answer.

.
 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
As I await your verification for what you quoted from Jaja.
 
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
As I await your verification for what you quoted from Jaja.

I have not disputed your interpretation of Jaja I just want you discuss the evidence he uses to support his claim. If there was no linguistic evidence provided why should we accept his claim that there was no relationship?

.
 
Posted by akoben (Member # 15244) on :
 
Great Jew is obviously stalling. He has no answers to your questions as his position is epistemologically unsound: since, in his view, Dr. Winters misread Jaja then Jaja's claims must be "true" in debunking Winters' claim. lol
 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
I want you to do the same. After all, he's your witness,
you summoned him to this court so it should be you who
recalls him to the stand.

Now go ahead and impeach your witness, for if he
has no stuffing in the one case then he has none
in the other either, meaning that everything you
relied on him for is just based on "no linguistic
evidence provided."

quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
As I await your verification for what you quoted from Jaja.

I have not disputed your interpretation of Jaja I just want you discuss the evidence he uses to support his claim. If there was no linguistic evidence provided why should we accept his claim that there was no relationship?

.


 
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
I want you to do the same. After all, he's your witness,
you summoned him to this court so it should be you who
recalls him to the stand.

Now go ahead and impeach your witness, for if he
has no stuffing in the one case then he has none
in the other either, meaning that everything you
relied on him for is just based on "no linguistic
evidence provided."

quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
As I await your verification for what you quoted from Jaja.

I have not disputed your interpretation of Jaja I just want you discuss the evidence he uses to support his claim. If there was no linguistic evidence provided why should we accept his claim that there was no relationship?

.


This is what I wrote:


For example, Jaja, J. M. 2008 “Interdisciplinary Methods for the Writing of “African History: A Reappraisal,” European Journal of Social Sciences 5(4): 55-65
quote:


(2) Niger – Kordofanian homeland
The West African region is largely made up of the Niger-Kordofanian language family. The block of course excludes the 100 or 50 languages classified as Afro-Asiatic and the Songhai and Kanuri languages which belong to the Nile -–Saharan group. The Niger – Kordofanian family is composed of three large blocks called the Mande, Niger – Congo and Kordofanian. Niger – Congo occupies the eastern section of West Africa, Mande the Western section and Kordofanian the area to the south west of Sudan. The present geographical location of these three language blocks forms a fanlike structure, which suggests that their homeland is at the south-western Sahara where the boundaries of each group converge. The Mande group does not have the same degree of internal diversity as the Niger – Congo and Kordofanian. But Niger-Congo and Kordofanian have the same degree of diversity. (Dalby 1965). A combination of this fact and the fan-shaped arrangement of the three language blocks suggests that
they belong to the same main language family. Besides, the unfavourable ecological situation north of the homeland, and the possibility of only moving southwards explains the fan-shaped nature of the dispersal to the area of southwestern Sahara.


Jaja discusses the present location of the speakers of these languages, but like Welmers he situates there homeland in the Sahara near Nubia.

This statement is what I have been claiming all along that these people came from the Sahara.

You have done additional research on Jaja, now you can answer my questions about his work.

.
 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
I have done no additional anything withh Jaja. I
have done no more than read the article you your
self directed us to.

The points is not whether I agree or disagree with
Jaja. The point is Jaja does not support diffusionist
views. You cannot use Jaja to support your position.
Jaja opposes your position.

There is no statement from Jaja that their homeland
is "in the Sahara near Nubia." Above, in your bolded
sentence, Jaja states "their homeland is at the
south-western Sahara."


 -

 -

Here's a bit of simple geography. Divide the Sahara
lengthwise and breadthwise. This will yield four quadrants.

Upper right quadrant = northeast Sahara
Upper left quadrant = northwest Sahara
Lower left quadrant = southwest Sahara
Lower right quadrant = southeast Sahara

List the countries in the lower left or southwest.
Is Nubia near any of those countries?
Is West Africa near any of those countries?


 -
Again note that Kordofanian is spoken in the Nuba Mountains near the southeast of the Sahara
not in the Nubian Desert.
 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Wait a minute. My position is that the first
cultural-Archaeological evidence for Fulani
traits appear in Late Stone Age Sahara at
Tassili n'Ajjer in southeast Algeria.

You've favored a 12th dynasty Egyptian origin for
Fulani based on I don't know what.

One people can't originate in two different places
at two different times. So which is it? Is it the
Sahara, and precisely when and where in the Sahara,
or is it Dynastic Egypt? Please choose one or the other.

quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
This statement is what I have been claiming all along that these people came from the Sahara.


 
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
The Fula speak a language that is part of the Niger-Congo group.There is controversy surrounding the homeland of Niger-Congo.But most linguist place the homeland for this linguistic group in the Nile Valley. An origin of the Niger-Congo people in the Nile Valley would explain the close relationship between the Fulani and Egyptian languages; and place Fulani in East Africa.


 -


For example, Jaja, J. M. 2008 “Interdisciplinary Methods for the Writing of “African History: A Reappraisal,” European Journal of Social Sciences 5(4): 55-65
quote:


(2) Niger – Kordofanian homeland
The West African region is largely made up of the Niger-Kordofanian language family. The block of course excludes the 100 or 50 languages classified as Afro-Asiatic and the Songhai and Kanuri languages which belong to the Nile -–Saharan group. The Niger – Kordofanian family is composed of three large blocks called the Mande, Niger – Congo and Kordofanian. Niger – Congo occupies the eastern section of West Africa, Mande the Western section and Kordofanian the area to the south west of Sudan. The present geographical location of these three language blocks forms a fanlike structure, which suggests that their homeland is at the south-western Sahara where the boundaries of each group converge. The Mande group does not have the same degree of internal diversity as the Niger – Congo and Kordofanian. But Niger-Congo and Kordofanian have the same degree of diversity. (Dalby 1965). A combination of this fact and the fan-shaped arrangement of the three language blocks suggests that
they belong to the same main language family. Besides, the unfavourable ecological situation north of the homeland, and the possibility of only moving southwards explains the fan-shaped nature of the dispersal to the area of southwestern Sahara.


Jaja discusses the present location of the speakers of these languages, but like Welmers he situates there homeland in the Sahara near Nubia.

McIntosh, R. J. 1998 The Peoples of the Middle Niger: the Island of Gold Oxford: Blackwell Publishers
quote:


Thus, we have a curious—and complex—pattern of prehistoric occupation in the Méma. There are a few sites demonstrably earlier than c. 4500-4000 BP [3.3-2.5 KBC]. There is a flourit of stone-using communities around 3500-3300 BP [1.9-1.6KBC] (with population injections from the Hodh and the Azawad). Then the region suffers an apparent sharp fall-off of population at c. 800-500 BC (despite a final infusion of Tichitt folk at mid-millennium)..

Does not contradict Welmer’s, all it says is that people from Dar Tichitt entered the area around 800-500 BC, this was hundreds of years after the Mande had established settlement in the Dar Tichitt region.



Roger Blench, Is Niger-Congo simply a branch of Nilo-Saharan, Nilo-Saharan ,(1995) 10:83-128, like Welmer’s noted that :

"Previous writers, noting the concentration of families in West Africa, have tended to assume a location somewhere near the headwaters of the Niger and explained Kordofanian by the migration of a single group. If the present classification is accepted, it becomes far more likely that the homeland was in in the centre of present-daySudan and the Kordofanian represents the Niger-Congo speakers who stayed at home (p.98)."


Roger Blench. 2006. Archaeology, Language, and the African Past New York: Altamira Press
quote:


pp. 132-133. With some misgivings, Table 3.4 puts forward dates and possible motives for expansion for the families of Niger-Congo. The dates are arranged in order of antiquity, not in the hypothetical order suggested by the genetic tree, and, in many cases the two are strongly at variance. There is no necessary correlation between the age of a family estimated from its apparent internal diversity and the date at which it appears to split from the Niger-Congo tree.. .
. . .

MANDE 6000 BP Mande languages have spread from north to south with scattered outliers in Nigeria and Cote d’Ivoire. Mande shares the common Niger-Congo roots for cow and goat, and perhaps the Proto-Mande were an isolated livestock-keeping population at the edge of the desert, which expanded southward as habitat change created potential space for livestock keeping. Reconstructions implying cropping are not present in the protolanguage.


Christopher Ehret. 2000 “Language and History,” in B. Heine and D. Nurse, eds. African Languages.An Introduction pp. 274-297 Canbridge: Cambridge University Press
quote:


p. 294 A second, but still early and important stage in Niger-Congo history was the proto-Mande-Congo era. At this period, or so it appears from the evidence of word histories, the cultivation of the guinea yam and possibly other crops, such as the oil palm, began among at least the peoples of the Atlantic and Ijo-Congo branches of the family (Williamson 1993 proposes the early words for these crops; Greenberg 1964 identifies an Atlantic and Ijo-Congo verb for cultivation, •-lim-). Between possibly about 8000 and 6000 BC, these people spread across the woodland savannahs of West Africa, the natural environment of the Guinea yams. At that time, woodland savannah environments extended several hundred kilometers farther north into the Sudan belt than they do today.


The Blench hypothesis of the Mande living in the Sahara and moving southward does not conflict with my theory of a Saharan origin for the Mande speakers.

The term lim, is not the Mande term to cultivate.


In al-Imfeld, Decolonizing: African Agricultural History (2007) , claims that in relation to African agriculture the cultivation of yam began 10,000 years ago and rice cultivation in Africa by 6000 BC.

The major cultivated crop of the Mande speakers was millet not the yam. The term for cultivation among the Mande was not lim is Proto-Paleo-Afro-Dravidian *be . Millet was probably cultivated over 5000 years ago.

The earliest sites for the cultivation of millet lie in the Sahara . Here the earliest archaeological evidence has been found for African millets.

The major grain exploited by Saharan populations was rice ,the yam and pennisetum. McIntosh and McIntosh (1988) has shown that the principal domesticate in the southern Sahara was bulrush millet (pennisetum). Millet impressions have been found on Mande ceramics from both Karkarchinkat in the Tilemsi Valley of Mali, and Dar Tichitt in Mauritania between 4000 and 3000 BP. (McIntosh & McIntosh 1983a,1988; Winters 1986b; Andah 1981)

The linguistic evidence indicates that the Mande and Dravidian speakers formerly lived in intimate contact , in the Sahara. The speakers of these languages share many terms for agriculture.

Given the archaeological evidence for millets in the Sahara, leads to the corollary theory that if the Dravidians originated in Africa, they would share analogous terms for millet with African groups that formerly lived in the Sahara.

One of the principal groups to use millet in Africa are the Northern Mande speaking people . The Mande speaking people belong to the Niger-Congo group. Most linguist agree that the Mande speakers were the first Niger-Congo group to leave the original Nile Valley and Saharan highland primary homeands of the Niger-Congo speakers.

The Northern Mande speakers are divided into the Soninke and Malinke-Bambara groups. Holl (1985,1989) believes that the founders of the Dhar Tichitt site where millet was cultivated in the 2nd millenium B.C., were northern Mande speakers. To test this theory we will compare Dravidian and Black African agricultural terms, especially Northern Mande. The linguistic evidence suggest that the Proto-Dravidians belonged to an ancient sedentary culture which existed in Saharan Africa. We will call the ancestor of this group Paleo-Dravido-Africans.

The Dravidian terms for millet are listed in the Dravidian Etymological Dictionary at 2359, 4300 and 2671. A cursory review of the linguistic examples provided below from the Dravidian (Kol, Tamil ,Kannanda, & Malayalam ) , Mande and Wolof languages show a close relationship between these language. These terms are outlined below:

code:
Kol                sonna       ---             ---       ----
Wolof (AF.) suna --- ---- ---
Mande (AF) suna bara, baga de-n, doro koro
Tamil connal varaga tinai kural
Malayalam colam varaku tina ---
Kannanda --- baraga, baragu tene korale,korle
*sona *baraga *tenä *kora

Below we will compare other Dravidian and African agricultural terms. These terms come from the Mande languages (Malinke, Kpelle, Bambara, Azer, Soninke), West Atlantic (Wolof, Fulani), Afro-Asiatic (Oromo, Galla), Somali, Nubian and the ancient Egyptian.
The Paleo-Dravido-Africans came from a sedentary culture that domesticated cattle and grew numerous crops including wheat and millet. The Egyptian term for cultivation is Ø b j(w) #. Egyptian Ø b j(w) # corresponds to many African terms for cultivation:
code:
Galla    baji  'cultivated field'
Tulu (Dravidian language) bey, benni
Nubian ba, bat 'hoe up ground'
Malinke be
Somali beer
Wolof mbey, ambey, bey
Egyptian b j(w)
Sumerian buru, bur 'to root up'

These terms for cultivate suggest that the Paleo-African term for cultivate was *be.

The Egyptian term for grain is 0 sa #. This corresponds to many African terms for seed,grain:
code:
Galla          senyi
Malinke se , si
Sumerian se
Egyptian sen 'granary'
Kannanda cigur

Bozo sii
Bambara sii
Daba sisin
Somali sinni
Loma sii
Susu sansi
Oromo sanyi
Dime siimu
Egyptian ssr 'corn'
id. ssn 'lotus plant'
id. sm 'herb, plant'
id. isw 'weeds'

The identification of a s>Ø/#_________e pattern for 'seed,grain' in the above languages suggest that these groups were familiar with seeds at the time they separated into distinct Supersets. The fact that Sumerian Ø se # and Egyptian Ø sen #, and Malinke
Ø se # are all separated both in time and geographical area highlight the early use of seeds * se , by Paleo-Dravido-Africans.


code:
	Rice
Soninke dugo
Vai ko'o
Manding malo
Dravidian mala-kurula
Mende molo, konu
Kpelle moloy
Boko mole
Bisa muhi
Busa mole
Sa mela
Bambara kini

Yam
Bozo ku, kunan
Vai jambi
Malinke ku
Dravidian kui, kuna, ku
Bambara ku

It would appear that all the Proto-Dravidians were familiar with the cultivation of rice, yams and millet. This is not surprising because Weber (1998) made it clear that millet cultivation in ancient South Asia was associated with rice cultivation.

The linguistic evidence clearly show similarities in the Afican and Dravidian terms for plant domesticates. This suggest that these groups early adopted agriculture and made animal domestication secondary to the cultivation of millet, rice and yams. The analogy for the Malinke-Bambara and Dravidians terms for rice, millet and yams suggest a very early date for the domestication of these crops.

In summary, population pressure in the Sahara during a period of increasing hyperaridity forced hunter/gather/fisher Proto-Dravido-African people to first domesticate animals and then crops. The linguistic evidence discussed above indicate that the Proto-Dravido-African people migrated out of the Nile Valley to West African and Harappan sites with millet, yam and rice already recognized as principal domesticated crop.

This comparison of Mande agricultural terms make it clear, that just like the Egyptian term for dog uher , the speakers of these languages share the terms for cultivate, and seed. It also shows that before the Dravidians separated from the Mande speakers these groups were cultivating also cultivating rice and the yam.


The Niger-Congo speakers which include the Fula, Mande and Wolof originated in the Nile Valley—not West Africa. They migrated from East to West. The oral traditions of these people make it clear that when they arrived on the scene pygmy people were already settled in many areas they occupied.


quote:

Wm. E. Welmers. 1971 "Niger-Congo, Mande" in T.A. Sebeok, et al. eds. Linguistics in sub-Saharan Africa (Current Trends in Linguistics, 7), pp. 113-140 The Hague: Mouton

P 119-120. By way of conclusion to this general overview of the Mande languages, a a bit of judicious speculation about Mande origins and migrations may not be out of order. It has already been stated that the Mande languages clearly represent the earliest offshoot from the parent Niger-Congo stock—not counting Kordofanian, which Greenberg considers parallel to all of the Niger-Congo, forming a Niger-Kordofanian macrofamily. An original Niger-Congo homeland in the general vicinity of the upper Nile valley is probably as good a hypothesis as any. From such a homeland, a westward Mande migration may have begun well over 5000 years ago. Perhaps the earliest division within this group resulted in the isolation of what is now represented only by Bobo-fing. Somewhat later— perhaps 3500 to 4500 years ago, and possibly from a new homeland around northern Dahomey [now Benin]— the ancestors of the present Northern-western Mande peoples began pushing farther west, ultimately reaching their present homeland in the grasslands and forests of West Africa. This was followed by a gradual spread of the Southern-Eastern division, culminating perhaps 2000 years ago in the separation of its to branches and the ultimate movement of Southern Mande peoples southeast and westward until Mano and Kpelle, long separated, became once more contiguous.

This reconstruction of Mande prehistory receives striking support from a most unexpected source— dogs. Back in the presumed Niger-Congo homeland—the southern Sudan and northern Uganda of modern times— is found the unique barkless, worried-looking, fleet Basenji, who also appears on ancient Egyptian monuments with the typical bee that compensates for his natural silence. Among the Kpelle and Loma people of Liberia, a breed of dogs is found which is so closely identical to the Basenji that it now recognized as the ‘Liberian Basenji’. In all of the Sudan belt of Africa from the Nile Valley to the Liberian forest, the dogs are somewhat similar in appearance, but very obviously mongrelized. It would appear that the Mande peoples originally took their Basenji dogs with them in their westward migration. At that time, the present Sahara desert was capable of sustaining a substantial population, and was presumably the homeland of the Nilo-Saharan peoples. The early Mande moment thus may have been through uninhabited land, and their dogs were spared any cross-breeding. The farthest westward Mande movement—that of the Southwestern group—was virtually complete before contact with dogs of other breeds. With the gradual drying of the Sahara and the southward movement of the Nilo-Saharan peoples, the remaining Mande peoples, as well as later waves of Niger-Congo migration made contact with other people and other dogs. The present canine population of the Liberian forests thus reflects the very early departure of the Mande peoples from their original homeland, and the subsequent early movement of the Southwestern group towards its present location, without contacting substantial number of unrelated people or dogs.


Liberian Basenji
 -

Egyptian Basenji
 - Egyptian Basenji Dog Hieroglyph

 -

.
Trade might account for the presence of Basenji dogs in both places. But, from the sense of the article, Welmers claims that speakers of other African languages surrounding the Kpelle have different dogs.


The term for Basenji may be uher. In Egyptian uher also means house, so some people claim the Egyptians placed a dog size after uher to denote the term dog.


web page

Niger-Congo hunters probably early domesticated the dog. Hunters used dogs to catch their prey .

Egyptian Hieroglyph
 -


.


Egyptian term for dog corresponds to many African, and Dravidian terms for dog:
  • Egptian uher

    Azer wulle

    Bozo kongoro

    Guro bere

    Vai wuru, ulu

    Bo[Bambara] -ulu

    Wassulunka wulu

    Konyanka wulu

    Malinke wuli, wuru, wulu

    Dravidian ori
.


The above data indicates that there is contrast between Paleo-Afican l =/= r. The Egyptian Ø uher # , Azer Ø wulle # and Manding Ø wuru # suggest that the r > l in Paleo-African.

There is also vowel alternation in the terms for dog o =/= u. The predominance of the vowel /u/ in the terms for dog, make it clear that o<u. This evidence suggest that there are two Paleo-African terms for dog: Paleo-African [PA] *uru and *oro.

Futhermore, this comparison of the term for dog within and among Niger-Congo languages and Egyptian supports Welmers view that the dog was domesticated in the Nile Valley before the speakers of these languages separated, and migrated to other parts of Africa.


The key to science, is that control is used to test the cause of a hypothesis, layman rarely use control, they accept a hypothesis gased on belief and biases.

Finally scientists test relationships to determine their validity. Science is concerned only with things that can be tested and observed.

Let's look at Welmers hypothesis. All research begins with a research question.

Research Question: Where did the Niger Congo speakers originate?

Null hypothesis: There is no relationship between the present location of the Niger-Congo speakers and the original homeland of the speakers of these languages.

Result: The Niger Congo speakers probably originated in the Nile Valley because the Kpelle , who speak a Mande language, have the basanji dog, which was the domesticated dog of the Egyptians and other Nile Valley people.

The hypothesis was further supported by a most interesting finding, that was that the basanji dog is not the hunting dog of other ethnic groups inhabiting areas between the Nile Valley and where the Mande speakers live.

Welmers hypothesis was confirmed. To disconfirm this hypothesis you have to present evidence that nullifies the findings of Welmers.

To test Welmers hypothesis, I compared the Egyptian term for dog and the Mande term for dog. The linguistic evidence supports the physical evidence discussed by Welmer.

Wm. E. Welmers identified the Niger Congo home land. Welmers in "Niger-Congo Mande", Current trends in Linguistics 7 (1971), pp.113-140,explained that the Niger-Congo homeland was in the vicinity of the upper Nile valley (p.119). He believes that the Westward migration began 5000 years ago.

In support of this theory he discusses the dogs of the Niger-Congo speakers. This is the unique barkless Basenji dogs which live in the Sudan and Uganda today, but were formerly recorded on Egyptian monuments (Wlemers,p.119). According to Welmers the Basanji, is related to the Liberian Basenji breed of the Kpelle and Loma people of Liberia. Welmers believes that the Mande took these dogs with them on their migration westward. The Kpelle and Loma speak Mande languages.

He believes that the region was unoccupied when the Mande migrated westward. In support of this theory Welmers' notes that the Liberian Banji dogs ,show no cross-breeding with dogs kept by other African groups in West Africa, and point to the early introduction of this cannine population after the separation of the Mande from the other Niger-Congo speakers in the original upper Nile homeland for this population. As a result, he claims that the Mande migration occured before these groups entered the region.

Linguistic research make it clear that there is a close relationship between the Niger-Congo Superlanguage family and the Nilo-Saharan languages spoken in the Sudan. Heine and Nurse (Eds.), in African languages: An introduction , Cambridge University Press, 2000, discuss the Nilo-Saharan connection. They note that when Westerman (1911) described African languages he used lexical evidence to include the Nilo-Saharan and Niger-Congo languages into a Superfamily he called "Sudanic" (p.16). Using Morphological and lexical similarities Gregerson (1972) indicated that these languages belonged to a macrophylum he named " Kongo-Saharan" (p.16). Research by Blench (1995) reached the same conclusion, and he named this Superfamily: "Niger-Saharan".

Genetic evidence supports the upper Nile origin for the Niger-Congo speakers. Rosa et al, in Y-Chromosomal diversity in the population of Guinea-Bissau (2007), noted that while most Mande & Balanta carry the E3a-M2 gene, there are a number of Felupe-Djola, Papel, Fulbe and Mande carry the M3b*-M35 gene the same as many people in the Sudan.

In conclusion, Welmers proposed an upper Nile (Sudan-Uganda) homeland for the Niger-Congo speakers. He claims that they remained intact until 5000 years ago. This view is supported by linguistic and genetics evidence. The linguistic evidence makes it clear that the Nilo-Saharan and Niger-Congo languages are related. The genetic evidence indicates that Nilo-Saharan and Niger-Congo speakers carry the M3b*-M35 gene, an indicator for the earlier presence of speakers of this language in an original Nile Valley homeland.

In summary Welmer’s makes two key points: 1) the Mande migration began around 3000BC out of the Nile Valley; and 2)Welmers proposed migration from Benin around 1500BC, 1500 years after the initial migration of the Mande from the Nile Valley.

.


 
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
First the founders of the first Dynasty of Egypt came from the south. They originally lived in the highland regions like Tassili before the area became arid.

No one in this discussion disagrees with the fact that the Fula also inhabited this region.

As I have noted in previous post and discussed by Diop in his numerous books, in relation to Egypt three things exist.

First, the original power in Egypt was the Anu. The Anu were conquered by Narmar.

Secondly, the Berbers did not originate in Africa they are the result of the Vandels and populations from Arabia and only recently arrived on the scene.

Thirdly, the civilization of Egypt came from the South.

Let's begin the discussion


A comparison of Egyptian, Niger-Kordofanian-Mande, Elamite,Dravidian and Sumerian indicates that they diverged from a common ancestor. The Dravidian examples discussed below are taken from Tamil. All of these languages share pronouns and demonstrative bases. (Winters 1989a) This is proven by a comparison of three terms: chief, city and black.

The above examples from languages spoken by blacks validates Diop's theory that there were cognate black civilizations in Africa and Asia, before the expansion of the Indo-European speaking peoples after 1500 BC. This linguistic data which is outlined in further detail elsewhere (Winters 1985b,1989a) illustrates that a common cultural macrostructure is shared by these speakers, which subsequently evolved along separate lines. Given the genetic unity of these languages we should call this group B(lack) Af(rican), Su(merian), Draa(vidian), (E)lam or Bafsudraalam Superset of languages. This supports Diop's use of the comparative method to illuminate the African past.

Yurco (1989,p.29) also falsely states that the Berber speakers were Libyans. This is false, as proven by Diop (1977). Diop (1977) illustrates that the Berber genealogies place their origin in Saudi Arabia, and point to a very recent settlement (2000 years ago) in the Central Sahara. Diop (1977) believes that the Berbers are the result of the early mixture of Africans and Germanic speaking Vandals. (Diop 1986) This would explain the evident close relationship between the Berber and German languages.

The original inhabitants of the Sahara where the Kemetic civilization originated were Blacks not Berbers or Indo-European speakers. These Blacks formerly lived in the highland regions of the Fezzan and Hoggar until after 4000 BC. This ancient homeland of the Dravidians, Egyptians, Sumerians, Niger-Kordofanian-Mande
and Elamite speakers is called the Fertile African Crescent. (Anselin, 1989, p.16; Winters, 1981,1985b,1991). We call these people the Proto-Saharans (Winters 1985b,1991). The generic term for this group is Kushite. This explains the analogy between the Bafsudraalam languages outlined briefly above. These Proto-Saharans were called Ta-Seti and Tehenu by the Egyptians. Farid(1985,p.82) noted that "We can notice that the beginning of the Neolithic stage in Egypt on the edge of the Western Desert corresponds with the expansion of the Saharian Neolithic culture and the growth of its population". (emphasis that of author).


Kemetic (Egyptian) civilization came from the south not the North as alleged by Yurco (1989). Martel (1992) does admit that Kemetic civilization came from the Saharan Highlands:The Mountains of the Moon, but he failed to admit that Diop's (1974) hypothesis that Kemetic civilization and writing came from the south was proven by the excavations at Qustul. (Williams 1987; Anselin 1989)

The inhabitants of ancient Nubia and Kush are called A-Group, C-Group and etc. by archaeologists. The artifacts found in the A-Group royal cemetery of the Nubians in Ta-Seti at Qustul were the founders of Kem. Bruce Williams (1987,p.173) of the Oriental Institute of the University of Chicago has made it clear that the Qustul pharaohs are the Egyptian rulers referred to as the "Red Crown Rulers".


There are similarities between Egyptian and Saharan motifs (Farid,1985). It was in the Sahara that we find the first evidence of agriculture, animal domestication and weaving (Farid , 1985, p.82). This highland region is the Kemites "Mountain of the Moons " region, the area from which the civilization and goods of Kem, originated.

The rock art of the Saharan Highlands support the Egyptian traditions that in ancient times they lived in the Mountains of the Moon. The Predynastic Egyptian mobiliar art and the Saharan rock art share many common themes including, characteristic boats (Farid 1985,p. 82), men with feathers on their head (Petrie ,1921,pl. xvlll,fig.74; Raphael, 1947, pl.xxiv, fig.10; Vandier , 1952, p.285, fig. 192), false tail hanging from the waist (Vandier, 1952, p.353; Farid, 1985,p.83; Winkler 1938,I, pl.xxlll) and the phallic sheath (Vandier, 1952, p.353; Winkler , 1938,I , pl.xvlll,xx, xxlll).

Due to the appearance of aridity in the Mountains of the Moon the Proto-Saharans migrated first into Nubia and thence into Kem. The Proto-Saharan origin of the Kemites explain the fact that the Kushites were known for maintaining the most ancient traditions of the Kemites as proven when the XXVth Dynasty or Kushite Dynasty ruled ancient Egypt. Farid (1985, p.85) wrote that "To conclude, it seems that among Predynastic foreign relations, the [Proto-]Saharians were the first to have significant contact with the Nile Valley, and even formed a part of the Predynastic population" (emphasis author).

This means that the Nomes probably represent different "states" incorporated into ancient Egypt. It is quite possible that each nome represented a different ethnic group.

If this is true the Egyptian language was probably a lingua franca used to provide a means of communication for the diverse people who lived in ancient Egypt. This would explain why Egyptian was used to write Kushite text until Egyptians migrated into Meroitic lands once Egypt was under the control of the Romans.

Alain Anselin La Question Peule, makes it clear that the Fula originated in Egypt. He supports this theory with the obvious similarity between the words for cattle and milk shared by the Egyptians, Fula and Dravidians (Tamil). He believes that by the 12 Dynasty of Egypt Fula were settled in Egypt.

The Egyptians had many gods. They had these gods because as new ethnicities formed nomes in Egypt they brought their gods with them.

A good example of this amalgamation of various African ethnicities into Egypt is the followers of the god Ra. Some of the first rulers of Egypt saw Ra as the main god.

Later the Egyptians worshipped Aman/Amun which was a Saharan god. ). By the 2nd millennium BC Kushites at kerma were already worshippers of Amon/Amun and they used a distinctive black-and-red ware (Bonnet 1986; Winters 1985b,1991). Amon, later became a major god of the Egyptians during the 18th Dynasty.

A majority of Fula may have remained nomadic, but settled Fula probaly form a major ethnic group in an Egyptian Nome, as did Wolof and Mande speaking people. This is the best way to explain the close genetic linguistic relationship between these groups.

Granted, some Wolof, Mande and Fula made their way to West Africa, but many speakers of these languages remained in Egypt and made up one of the various nomes associated with Egypt.

DNA can tells us little about this period unless they recover DNA from the people living at that time. DNA from living individuals only tell us abou the contemporary group. Not the original people.


Egypt was a cosmopolitan area inhabited by diverse people who move up the Nile from the south to found the First Dynasty. Since the people of Dynastic Egypt originated in the Sahara and moved from south to north . The archaeological evidence makes it clear that no one originated in Egypt.

.
 
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
Wait a minute. My position is that the first
cultural-Archaeological evidence for Fulani
traits appear in Late Stone Age Sahara at
Tassili n'Ajjer in southeast Algeria.

You've favored a 12th dynasty Egyptian origin for
Fulani based on I don't know what.

One people can't originate in two different places
at two different times. So which is it? Is it the
Sahara, and precisely when and where in the Sahara,
or is it Dynastic Egypt? Please choose one or the other.

quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
This statement is what I have been claiming all along that these people came from the Sahara.


The Fula are spread over a widearea. I maintain they originated in the highland regions of the Sahara I call the Fertile African Crescent since the highlands form a Crescent shape in Middle Africa. The first evidence of the Fula suggest that they were living in Tassili.

As I said before, no one originated in Egypt everyone in Egypt came from somewhere else as is evident from the archaeology.

I said that the Fula were in Egypt at least by the 12th Dynasty and that those Fulani speakers left Egypt during the Roman period and settled parts of West Africa.

.
 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Then we agree the Egyptian Origin of the Fulani is false.
Sorry I didn't distinguish origin and residence in your
stance.


quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
I maintain they originated in the highland regions of the Sahara ... The first evidence of the Fula suggest that they were living in Tassili.


 
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
Then we agree the Egyptian Origin of the Fulani is false.
Sorry I didn't distinguish origin and residence in your
stance.


quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
I maintain they originated in the highland regions of the Sahara ... The first evidence of the Fula suggest that they were living in Tassili.


I agree that the Fulani originated in the Sahara. But as supported by Fula oral traditions discussed by Lam, there is a considerable section of Fula, who presently live in West Africa, who claim they came from Egypt before settling in West Africa.

Since these Fula claim descent from Egyptian nationals that left Egypt during the Roman period ,and recognize this as their most recent homeland I guess this group would see Egypt as the place where they originated. This view is supported by the fact that the Fula is related to Egyptian spoken during 12th Dynasty, and we do have a major migration of Egyptians out of Egypt during the Roman period.


And in a way they are correct if they are not looking at the origin of their grand-ancestors in the Fertile African Crescent (Highlands of the Sahara).

Moreover, we must respect the history people have recorded for themselves.

.
 
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

I agree that the Fulani originated in the Sahara.

They originate in *western* Africa, the place you hate.

quote:

But as supported by Fula oral traditions discussed by Lam, there is a considerable section of Fula, who presently live in West Africa, who claim they came from Egypt before settling in West Africa.

Since these Fula claim descent from Egyptian nationals that left Egypt during the Roman period ,and recognize this as their most recent homeland I guess this group would see Egypt as the place where they originated. This view is supported by the fact that the Fula is related to Egyptian spoken during 12th Dynasty, and we do have a major migration of Egyptians out of Egypt during the Roman period.



This is all just a figment of your wild imagination; nothing more.

Ps: You are delusional if you think that facts are up for "compromise", which is what this ambiguous acceptance of a "Saharan" origin, while also professing an Egyptian one, is all about. Which sucker were you hoping to get on the boat with that one?
 
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:

Clyde,

Come on here and make your 'discredited" self useful for a moment: Can I get an *elaborate* grammatical and syntax correspondence between Fula and Ancient Egyptian?

BTW Clyde, I'd like to congratulate you for swiftly delivering your thoughtful and intelligent answer to this request...which, oh yeah, doesn't EXIST!
 
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
... [Eek!] .. [Roll Eyes] .. [Razz] .. [Confused] ...

It is apparent that this forum is above your head. If you wish to whine childishly or to present non- factual information, please post on Ancient Egypt.
 
Posted by The Gaul (Member # 16198) on :
 
Once again, there is NO EVIDENCE that the rock paintings in Tassili pre-dates those found in other areas of the Nile Valley and conitinuing to the Red Sea. These have been dated to at least 5000 BC by using the time of extinction of a certain herd of wild cattle, which were found also in the cave paintings as far east as Somalia . There is also nothing that distinctly says the rock paintings in Tassili are that of Fulani, only that a certain ceremony and milk containors are prevelent, but of which is also found among other semi-nomadic, pastorolists such as Masaai and those in preset day Sudan. For instance, the Fulani "calf-rope" is not seen in the Tassili paintings.

On this subject, doubt can be cast on everything, so it seems prudent to go with the linguistic and cultural evidence Fulani and Wolof scholars have brought out, especially one who claimed this back in the late 1800s.

Wally, completely ignore "Explorer" since I've come to the conclusion that this is the racist idiot "Yazid" I've seen on older threads. Exact same racist, hatred of AA themes. Even the same "heritageless" ignorance.
 
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by some heritageless sap:

....

This, modafucka, is what defines whining:

It is apparent that this forum is above your head. If you wish to whine childishly or to present non- factual information, please post on Ancient Egypt.

...'cause, quite simply it doesn't remotely address the matter/evidence being requested. Now, buzz off, get lost, or whatever...
 
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by some heritageless spook:

Wally, completely ignore "Explorer" since I've come to the conclusion that this is the racist idiot "Yazid" I've seen on older threads. Exact same racist, hatred of AA themes. Even the same "heritageless" ignorance.

...and you are that racist turd-head called "TheAmericanHammer"; see, two can play the childish games you come up with in that puny dense cranium of your's. Get off your fat lazy ass, buy yourself some heritage, and stop distorting others', okay!

And oh, might want to preach what you teach, Lol, advising others to do what you yourself isn't capable of doing.

Now, for the little "lost" evidential matter, that the two buffoons above tried to distract from:

Clyde,

Come on here and make your 'discredited" self useful for a moment: Can I get an *elaborate* grammatical and syntax correspondence between Fula and Ancient Egyptian?

..the clock is ticking!
 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
So what?!?

There are no Nile Valley rock paintings of Fulani cultural traits.

The rock paintings showing cultural traits like the Fulani are where?

Tassili n'Ajjer, a good 1500 miles west of the Nile Valley.

quote:
Originally posted by The Gaul:
Once again, there is NO EVIDENCE that the rock paintings in Tassili pre-dates those found in other areas of the Nile Valley and conitinuing to the Red Sea.


 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Horse manure! You really need to educate yourself
on both the Tassili n'Ajjer rock art in general and then
those pieces Ba associated with current Bororo Fulani
cultural traits before you further discredit yourself.


 -  -

quote:

Among the paintings of the Tassili, Amadou Hampaté-Ba recognized many
of the Fula rituals, including the Kumen initiation into the mysteries of
pastoralism (silatigi). One of the scenes at Ti-n-Tazarift depicts the lotori,
or annual lustering of cattle. There, painted on the side of a scene of people
bathing cattle and passing them through a U-shaped brush gate, is a large
abstract design representing the kurgal kaggu -— a ritual veil, an important
symbol to the Fula herders, the Kaggu (LeQuellec 1992:60-6). Shaped like a
hand, it invokes the ancestral Kikala, with the four fingers, each painted in
one of the colors of the cattle (yellow, red, black, white), representing the
tribal clans (Dyal, Ba, So,and Bari). The thumb represents their vassals
(Dieterlen 1965, at 325).

This is one of the prime Saharan painting's Ba used.

 -

The "calf rope" used to divide a pastoral Fulani encampment is
very noticeable. Evidence like this shows that Fulani have local
antecedence that far outweighs any distant infusions or accretions.

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=005083#000031


quote:
Originally posted by The Frenchman:
... the Fulani "calf-rope" is not seen in the Tassili paintings.



 
Posted by The Gaul (Member # 16198) on :
 
To elucidate my point about doubt being cast, from the book "African Herders" (pgs. 136 - 137) by Andrew Brown Smith:

quote:
While their recent history is relatively clearly understood, their more distant past is not clear, and there is no archaeology to elucidate their existence. Intriguing suggestions of a Saharan past have been raised regarding percieved similarities between depictions in the rock art of the Tassili n'Ajjer and Fulani ceremonies. Figure 4.21 from Uan Derbaouan has been suggested as representing the Fulani latoori cleansing ritual (Hampate Ba and Dieterlen (1966:150). Another example from this period, also from the Tassili n'Ajjer, shows heads of cattle around a sun motif (fig. 5.2) that Hampate Ba and Dieterlen (1966:149) interpret as one of the seven suns where initiates receive training from the god, Koumen, during " claireres ," or stages of initiation, on their path to ritual elder status.

Such interpretations are not without their critics. There is nothing within Fulani origin myths to support these contentions. On the one hand, Le Quellec (2002) maintains that there are none of the recognized Fulani symbols, such as the important Fulani calf rope symbol , while on the other hand, there is a long time between execution of the painting, perhaps some 5,000 years ago, and the present (Vansina 1984). To Le Quellec (2002:149), the ceremonial attributions are too exact, and some of the arguments for equating the paintings with the Fulani need not be specific to just the Fulani but rest on a "level of generalities common to all pastoral cultures."

However, there are too many other such coincidences in the paintings with modern pastoral Fulani society, such as the layout of the camp from Tissoukai (Lhote 1976), where male and female domains are clearly seperated by the calf rope, and the kaakul display of containers (Kuper 1978: 426: fig. 11), not to at least consider the possibility that we are dealing with similar cultural patterns. It is possible that the Tassili paintings depict a formative West African pastoral society whose best fit today may be the Fulani, but the detail that Hampate Ba and Dieterlen claimed to see in the paintings is perhaps what they wanted to see to support their thesis. Time depth, however, should not be used as an argument against the survival of deep meaning in any society. We know that the history of the Judeo-Christian Bible goes back several thousand years, and only part of this history was maintianed in written form.

And from "The Cambridge History of Africa" (p. 575), we have similarities amongst modern cattler herders at Tibesti, Tassili, and the Nile Valley:

quote:
The heads are always very carefully drawn; they are shown longer than in real life and are treated with an artistic sense that occasionally seems artificial, particularly with regard to the treatment of the horns. Sometimes these last are curiously deformed both in the engravings and in the paintings; in the Tibesti massif alone a hundred such cases of deformity have been noted, while they are much rarer in Ennedi and Tassili n'Ajjer and exceptional in the Ahaggar (Huard 1959). Now this cultural trait is limited neither to the Sahara nor to the Neolithic period. Indeed, it seems to have originated among the people of Nubia where it continued througout the Egyptian period; thus from tribute from the Nubians is often shown as consisting of fattened cattle with horns variously deformed and carved. In our own day among the Nuer and Dinka of the Nile and even among the Souk and Nandi of Lake Victoria, such age old practices still have not died out.
The seperation of male and female compounds is consistent with ALL pastoral societies. One way or another, we simply can see similarities with a few distinctions present in all of the regions from Tassili, to the Nile Valley, and further east to the Red (Black) Sea, with the practices becoming more exact in different regions with time.
 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
After pages of grandstanding look who's now taking
the foreign whiteman's word over that of a native
Fulani!

You see Ba was born and raised Fulani and as part
of the
nobility recieved the best Fulani education and traveled
in the inteligentsia's circles, whereas Smith on the
otherhand has only book knowledge. A good example being
the calf-rope.

The calf-rope is not a symbol it's a physical rope.

Though not without sour grapes, in the end Smith has to admit:
quote:

... there are too many other such coincidences in the paintings with modern pastoral Fulani society, ...
It is possible that the Tassili paintings depict a formative West African pastoral society whose best fit today may be the Fulani
, but the detail that Hampate Ba and Dieterlen claimed to see in the paintings is perhaps what they wanted to see to support their thesis.

Now sexual separation is indeed no unusual thing but
who does it with a calf rope other than ...
 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Now what was it The Frenchman said?
quote:
Originally posted by The Gaul:
... I have full belief of what West African and Fulnai scholars have to say, ...
. . . .
a FULANI scholar ... knows the people of his area and does his work truly as a scholar, not to be undermined by a non-African foreigner who would think they know these people better ...

Hmmm, I guess not, if that non-African foreigner is
named Smith and the Fulani scholar is the reknowned
West African Fulani Amadou Hampâté Bâ (Gd rest him).
Read his chapter 8 'The Living Tradition' starting
at pg62 in UNESCO's General History of Africa vol 1
 
Posted by akoben (Member # 15244) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Wally:
quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
... [Eek!] .. [Roll Eyes] .. [Razz] .. [Confused] ...

It is apparent that this forum is above your head. If you wish to whine childishly or to present non- factual information, please post on Ancient Egypt.
The irony is the dumbass can't even handle ancient Egypt either as he does the same sh!t over there too. Ain't that right Lucy Dawidowitz?! LOL
 
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
 
quote:
alTakruri wrote to Clyde Winters:
...You've favored a 12th dynasty Egyptian origin for
Fulani based on I don't know what.
One people can't originate in two different places
at two different times. So which is it? Is it the
Sahara, and precisely when and where in the Sahara,
or is it Dynastic Egypt? Please choose one or the other.

"Naw, Mahn, you no git way wid dat semantic treek" (a little African creole...) [Smile]

Origin -birth, descent, extraction, family tree, genealogy, line, lineage, parentage...

- People certainly can and do originate in two, and usually in many places:

a) my birth origin is Louisiana

b) my descent is African

c) my lineage is from many places in Africa, a smidgen of European, and perhaps a dash of Native American...

--as Dr. Winters has so accurately pointed out, even the Ancient Egyptians did not originate in Egypt; yet they are from Egypt - you certainly understand this process, and for you to maintain that the Fulani, who have originated in more places in Africa than perhaps any other African ethnic group, did not spend some time 'originating' in Ancient Egypt, boggles the mind. The Fulani of the Sudan are from Sudan, that is thus, their place of origin. The Original Place of Origin of everybody on the planet is the Great Lakes Regions of East Africa. Obviously, we're not talking about this Original Place of Origin...
 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
quote:

or·i·gin (ôr-jn, r-)
n.
1. The point at which something comes into existence or from which it derives or is derived.
2. Ancestry: "We cannot escape our origins, however hard we try" (James Baldwin).
3. The fact of originating; rise or derivation: The rumor had its origin in an impulsive remark.


Synonyms: origin, inception, source, root


Well then, boggle the mind I'll do.
The Fulani did not originate in 12 dyn AE.
The topic is Fulani not the word origin.
For anything not mestice, there is only one point of origin.


The first set of Fulani cultural traits were from SE Algeria
You have not shown Fulani cultural traits older than that or from elsewhere.

The self-named Fulbe ethny was first known in Mauritania/Senegal c. 1kya.

No one can show a people named Fulani older than that from elsewhere.

All rhetoric aside
* Fulani as Fulani are a West African originating people
* Fulani-like traits are first noted in West Africa
* Fulani do not appear in Egypt until well after Islam.

But please produce records from 12th dynasty Egypt
of a wholescale migration westward of people bearing
Fulani cultural traits. This is the only thing that will
prove Fulani were in 12th dynasty Egypt. You know,
of course, they could not have originated in 12th
dynasty Egypt when the first record of anything
like Fulani debuts 1800 miles away and roughly
3000 years earlier.
 
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
 
alTakruri, you actually wrote : "Origin, The point at which something comes into existence or from which it derives or is derived."
Which is exactly what I wrote!
Origin -birth, descent, extraction, family tree, genealogy, line, lineage, parentage...
"The point at which something comes into existence" - like birth
"or from which it derives or is derived." - like genealogy, line, lineage, parentage,

"The Topic", you wrote, "is Fulani not the word origin."
That maybe your topic, but my Topic, the Topic of this thread is "The Egyptian Origin of the Fulani."

You also said that "The first set of Fulani cultural traits were from SE Algeria" only to soon thereafter contradict yourself "Fulani as Fulani are a West African originating people" which means that you either believe that SE Algeria is in West Africa or that the Fulani did not leave any cultural traits in their West African land of origin.

Then you repeat the impossible request to "produce records from 12th dynasty Egypt
of a wholescale migration westward of people bearing Fulani cultural traits." When you know that these records only exist in the evidence that we have presented to you, actual written records of migrations from ancient Egypt can be reduced to the biblical myths of Moses leading the Hebrews out, and the historical evidence of the defections of Egyptians over to the Kushites; you know this. In fact, though more abundant with the Fulani, the records of the Colchians migration from Egypt were not written, or if
so not discovered or revealed.
We know that the Zulu, the Xhosa, the Mandebele peoples did not originate in South Africa, as a matter of fact, they arrived in southern Africa just alittle bit before the Dutch and the British - The Germans did not originate in Germany but from the regions of the Huns, the Swedes, Norwegian, and places south - the Filipinos did not originate in the Philippines but from islands far to the west, even west of Malaysia...The Fulani, like their friends nearby, the Wolof, might have lived in the west African regions for quite sometime, but it certainly wasn't their original homeland, anymore than Japan was for the Japanese who came and displaced the European looking Ainu folks.
It's the way of the world. The Fulani are definitely a part of this world...
 
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
 
^ AlTakruri is correct.

Wally you are very bright so why do you continue this disingenuous argument?

Here is a classic example of a strawman.......

You also said that "The first set of Fulani cultural traits were from SE Algeria" only to soon thereafter contradict yourself "Fulani as Fulani are a West African originating people" which means that you either believe that SE Algeria is in West Africa or that the Fulani did not leave any cultural traits in their West African land of origin.


If we are suckers we can debate whether SE Algeria is West Africa.

But if we are not - we want to know how you can claim Fulani originate in Dynastic Egypt if you acknolwedge they originate in the Neolithic Algerian Sahara?

These are mutually exclusive claims kept 'alive' [well not really, but you keep arguing them] by sophistry and 'bad' dancing.

Of course I challenged you for months earlier while you ran from this request to clarify your false claims, so it's funny to see you back it again.....but perhaps not surprising.

When the cat's away...... [Razz]

re:

You repeat the impossible request to "produce records from 12th dynasty Egypt
of a wholescale migration westward of people bearing Fulani cultural traits."


^ And why is this impossible?


When you know that these records only exist in the evidence that we have presented to you,

^ This is a tautology. If I ask you for physical evidence of UFO's - would you respond by sayin the request is 'impossible', because I know the evidence only exists in 'doubtful claims' and 'bogus photographs'?

This is essentially and admission that you have no hard evidence.

We know that the Zulu, the Xhosa, the Mandebele peoples did not originate in South Africa, as a matter of fact .....

^ Non sequitur, does not prove that Fulani originated in Egypt.

One of the reasons I got bored with Egyptsearch is that 'arguments' seldom rise above regurgitation of elementary logical fallacy.

This is very disappointing.
 
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
quote:

or·i·gin (ôr-jn, r-)
n.
1. The point at which something comes into existence or from which it derives or is derived.
2. Ancestry: "We cannot escape our origins, however hard we try" (James Baldwin).
3. The fact of originating; rise or derivation: The rumor had its origin in an impulsive remark.


Synonyms: origin, inception, source, root


Well then, boggle the mind I'll do.
The Fulani did not originate in 12 dyn AE.
The topic is Fulani not the word origin.
For anything not mestice, there is only one point of origin.


The first set of Fulani cultural traits were from SE Algeria
You have not shown Fulani cultural traits older than that or from elsewhere.

The self-named Fulbe ethny was first known in Mauritania/Senegal c. 1kya.

No one can show a people named Fulani older than that from elsewhere.

All rhetoric aside
* Fulani as Fulani are a West African originating people
* Fulani-like traits are first noted in West Africa
* Fulani do not appear in Egypt until well after Islam.

But please produce records from 12th dynasty Egypt
of a wholescale migration westward of people bearing
Fulani cultural traits. This is the only thing that will
prove Fulani were in 12th dynasty Egypt. You know,
of course, they could not have originated in 12th
dynasty Egypt when the first record of anything
like Fulani debuts 1800 miles away and roughly
3000 years earlier.

No one has said anything about a migration out of Egypt during the 12th Dynasty. Homburger uses linguistic data to indicate that the Egyptian language spoken during this period agrees with the Fulani language.

.
 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Wally

I do hope you ken the difference between Fulani-like
traits and thefull blown ethnic group the Fulani people.

Those with the traits are the origin of the ethny.

Glad to see you finally admit the impossibilty to
locate AEL primary documents of the Fulani ethny.
I rest my case.

And yes the folk of the West African sahel, savannah,
and northern woodlands for the most part immediately
trace to the Green Sahara, ipso facto.
 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Dr. Winters

Re-examine the thread. Somebody here did make such claim.

Homburger, on the otherhand, denies Fulfulde as
12th dynasty AEL by the very passage you presented
from a seondary source.
 
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
Dr. Winters

Re-examine the thread. Somebody here did make such claim.

Homburger, on the otherhand, denies Fulfulde as
12th dynasty AEL by the very passage you presented
from a seondary source.

It was Alain Anselin. Yet he goes on to make it clear that the Egyptians and Fula were related. He also adds the Dravidians to the mix.

.
 
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
 
rasol

Welcome Back. The board really missed your intelligent posts.

Peace
 
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
 
Dr. Winters,
As you no doubt have witnessed in this thread is that we are up against a dogma, not the same dogma as put out by the looneys who post here, this is dogma with intelligence, but dogma none the less. The Dogma is this: Africans might have migrated from any other place in Africa or have originated any where else in Africa except Ancient Egypt or the Nile Valley! I am surprised that my buddy Djehuti, who buys this same dogma has not chimed in; We; me, - The Gaul, You, and others here have presented documents to support our case; linguistic evidence, cultural evidence, Griot historical evidence, the works of scholars, only to be called 'disingeneous' - a euphemism for 'a lier' despite:

a) The names of several African ethnic groups are identical to Ancient Egyptian gods, or have a ring of Nobility or status within Ancient Egypt - The Akan, The Fanti, The BaTutsi, The Yoruba, the Hausa...

b) We also have shown that a Wolof could understand an Ancient Egyptian speaker in the same manner that a Portuguese can understand an Italian speaker, perhaps to an even greater degree...

c) We have shown a close relationship between Fulani, Wolof, and Yoruba, and the Mdu Ntr, which is genetic...

d) BaTutsi Griot legends tells us of their origins in the North, Fulani tell us directly of their sojourn in Ancient Egypt - alTakruri wants to see their emigration papers - The late Yoruba musician Fela was so taken with the knowledge of his ancestors emigration from the Nile Valley, he named his band Egypt87!

e) It blew my mind when a Yoruba friend, when I asked him an obscure Mdu Ntr word "Noo" ; to erase, wipe - how do you say erase, wipe in Yoruba, and after some thought replied to me "Noo..."

f) The capital of Zimbabwe, named after that great African civilization is "Harare" - "Harare" means "flower" in the Mdu Ntr, a good name, like Addis Ababa (New Flower), for a city...

G) THE MANGBETU ARE A PEOPLE OF THE DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC OF THE CONGO, WHOSE HEAD SHAPES ARE IDENTICAL TO THOSE OF THE AMARNA ROYALTY OF THE EIGHTEENTH DYNASTY - MANGBETU IS A MEMBER OF "THE NILO-SAHARAN" LANGUAGE GROUP.
WELL COMPARE THIS TO MENGABU, A GOD IN MDU NTR...

 -

H) MUNTU, OR "HUMAN/MEN" IN BANTU, IS A CENTER POINT IN BANTU PHILOSOPHY AND WISDOM; HE WAS AN EGYPTIAN GOD, SUCCEEDED BY AMON, AND WAS THE WHITE BULL GOD WITH A BLACK FACE - ALSO AN EXELLENT BOOK: MUNTU: AFRICAN CULTURE AND THE WESTERN WORLD BY JANHEINZ JAHN AND MARJORIE GRENE
 -

...IT IS ONE THING TO BE INITIALLY SURPRISED, GIVEN THE CIRCUMSTANCES' TO DISCOVER THAT THE ANCIENT EGYPTIANS WERE BLACKS, YOU WANTED TO TELL THE WORLD, BUT SUCH A DISCOVERY LEAD TO FURTHER DISCOVERY: THAT AT ONE POINT IN TIME AFRICANS FORMED A CLUSTER IN THE NILE VALLEY AND THAT KEMET WAS INDEED - A PAN-AFRICAN CIVILIZATION, AND AS WE CONTINUE OUR SEARCH, WE CONTINUE FINDING FURTHER EVIDENCE TO SUBSTANTIATE THIS REALITY...A FAR, FAR CRY FROM THE DOGMA...
 
Posted by Red,White, and Blue + Christian (Member # 10893) on :
 
I wasn't going to come back either, but these postings are bothering me.

http://www.muslimsinamerica.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=16&Itemid=28

I was scanning quickly through books on African American slaves and saw that one of our ancestors claimed Ancient Egyptian origin.

He was a Foulah namd Ben Ali and he wrote/said that the Foulah were descended from the Hyksos/Shepard Kings. Fullah was spoken a lot in the Gullah regions and there were two Ben Alis.

Ben Ali Muhammad wrote the longest Slave Narrative of any slave.


In 1803, Bilali (Ben Ali) Muhammad and his family arrived in Georgia on Sapelo Island. Bilali Muhammad was a Fula from Timbo Futa-Jallon in present day Guinea-Conakry...... All his daughters but Bint could speak English, French, Fula, Gullah, and Arabic. Bilali was well educated in Islamic law. While enslaved Bilali became the community leader and Imam of at least 80 men. During the War of 1812 Bilali told his slave master that he had 80 men of the true faith to help defend the land against the British.

Bilali was known for regularly wearing his fez, a long coat, praying five times a day facing the east, fasting during the month of Ramadan, and celebrating the two holidays when they came. Bilali was buried with his Qur’an and prayer rug. In 1829 Bilali wrote a 13 page hand written Arabic text book called a "Risala"about some of the laws of Islam and Islamic living. The book is known as Ben Alis"Diary, housed today at the University of Georgia in Athens.

Bilali "Ben Ali" was the leader of one of America’s earliest known Muslim communities. It’s documented that in 1812 there were at least eighty Muslims living on a plantation controlled by Ben Ali from 1806 to the late 1830s.

In 1803, Salih Bilali (Old Tom) came from a powerful family of Massina in the Temourah district in West Africa. He was captured around 1782, sold in the Bahamas at first and then in the US around 1803. He lived from 1770-1846. He was sold to John Couper in the Bahamas and brought to St. Simon Island, Ga. From 1816-1840 Salih Bilali was the trusted head slave manager of more than 450 slaves of John and Hamilton Couper. It was reported by his master’s son, that while Salih was on his death bed that his last words were "Allah is God and Mohammed his Prophet."

One of Salih’s descendants was Robert Abbott, founder of the "Chicago Defender, "one of the nation’s first black newspapers. Another one of Salih’s descendants was named after him Bilali Sullivan who was known as (Ben Sullivan). Bilali (Ben) Sullivan purchased some of the original property from the plantation in 1914. He was interviewed about his life in the 1930s.

There are two well known Muslim communities of the Gullah Islands of St. Simon and Sapelo off the coast of Georgia. Bilali (Ben Ali) Mahomet and Salih Bilali ruled as plantation mangers and Muslim leaders. In America’s history there were Gullah Wars. Some of them are known as the Seminole Indians wars. The African-American language Gullah was initially developed by the enslaved African Muslims and non-Muslims in Senegal to help communicate among the various African tribes.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyksos
 
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
 -

Inyotef son of Ka

Wm. E. Welmers identified the Niger Congo home land. Welmers in "Niger-Congo Mande", Current trends in Linguistics 7 (1971), pp.113-140,explained that the Niger-Congo homeland was in the vicinity of the upper Nile valley (p.119). He believes that the Westward migration began 5000 years ago.

In support of this theory he discusses the dogs of the Niger-Congo speakers. This is the unique barkless Basenji dogs which live in the Sudan and Uganda today, but were formerly recorded on Egyptian monuments (Wlemers,p.119). According to Welmers the Basanji, is related to the Liberian Basenji breed of the Kpelle and Loma people of Liberia. Welmers believes that the Mande took these dogs with them on their migration westward. The Kpelle and Loma speak Mande languages.

He believes that the region was unoccupied when the Mande migrated westward. In support of this theory Welmers' notes that the Liberian Banji dogs ,show no cross-breeding with dogs kept by other African groups in West Africa, and point to the early introduction of this cannine population after the separation of the Mande from the other Niger-Congo speakers in the original upper Nile homeland for this population. As a result, he claims that the Mande migration occured before these groups entered the region.

Homburger made it clear that the Fula language was related to the Egyptians of the 12th Dynasty. This is interesting because we find that at this time new rulers came to power in Egypt from the South. This period is often called the Middle Kingdom.

Many of these “southerners” probably included many people who later settled West Africa. As noted earlier the marker for the spread of the Niger-Congo speakers is the basanji dog. The hieroglyphic for "dog," in fact, as evidenced on a stele from the Middle Kingdom of Egypt, derives from the basenji. In just a few strokes, the engraver captures the key characteristics: pricked ears, curled tail and graceful carriage.
It is probably no coincidence that the Basanji was see as the principal dog it probably represents the coming of power of the Niger-Congo speakers in ancient Egypt.

We know that in African societies great ancestors are made into “gods”. This is interesting because Wally has discovered a number of African ethnonyms among the gods of Egyptian nomes.

quote:
Originally posted by Wally:
Ethnic names in the Mdu Ntr

Tutsi
Tutsi "the assembled gods"; "all of them (gods)"

Akan
Akan - the name of a god
Akaniu - a class of gods like Osiris

Fante
Fante - "he of the nose" - a name of Thoth - one of the 42 judges in the Hall of Osiris ("Shante" in modern Egyptian)

Hausa
Hosa - a singing god

Yoruba
Ourbaiu - great of souls, a title of gods or kings
Ouruba - Great God of soul

The permutations of names of such folks as the Wolof or the Fulani are so many, that it requires the effort of those who speak the language, to properly interpret the names -ie, Djoloff, Oulof, etc. and then look for their meanings in Budge's dictionary...

It would be quite interesting if these nomes were formerly prominent southern nomes who gained prominence once the Inyotefs came to power.

Between 2258 2052 BC civil war broke out among the nobles of Egypt. During this period of disunity there was much suffering in the land and many of the fine cultural developments of the Old Kingdoms were discarded or rarely practiced. This period of chaos is called the "First Intermediate Period". A person who lived during this hard time named Iperwer, wrote Great and humble say: "I wish I might die". Little children cry out: "I never should have been born". Also during this time Lower Egypt was invaded by Asian people who ruled there for a long time.


Inyotef I

 -

During this period of decline it was the Southerners who made it possible for the raise of Egypt back into a world power. These Southerners were called "Inyotefs", they lived around a city in Upper Egypt called "Thebes". Inyotef I founded the 11th Dynasty and made Thebes his capital.Inyotef declared himself king c 2125-2112 BC.

Inyotef I opposed Ankhtify of Heracleopolitan who he defeated. It was Inyotef who consolidated power in the south. Inyotef II (Wahankh) also fought the Heracleopolitans. He loved dogs especially the basenji.

Egyptian Basenji
 - Egyptian Basenji Dog Hieroglyph

 -

I believe that some of the southern nomes led by the Inyotefs were composed of people who later migrated to West Africa after the Romans came to power. The Thebians were closely united with the Nubians.

Inyotef I was the father Mentuhotep I. Several of the wives of Mentuhotep II were Nubians. Under Mentuhotep, the delta chiefs were defeated and Egypt was united again into one country.


 - Mentuhotep
Under the Amenemhet I, of the Xllth dynasty the capital was moved form Thebes to Lisht near Memphis. This dynasty and those thereafter are called the Middle Kingdom.

 - Amenemhet

MIDDLE KINGDOM


It took strong leadership for the Egyptians to re establish the greatness of Egypt and the establishment of safe and secure borders.

The rulers during the Middle Kingdom were mostly men from the military. They frequently made raids into foreign lands in search of booty. And for the first time in Egyptian history a permanent army was founded to protect Egypt and keep it strong.

Amon became the major God of the Egyptians during the Middle Period. Amon was recognized at this time as the God of all Gods. This Amon was also called Amma by the Proto Saharans.

It is interesting to note that the Mande and other West African people like the Dogon and Dravidians worshipped the god Amma.

The fact that Mande, Wolof and Fula are related to Egyptian is probably due to the fact that when the Inyotefs took over Egypt the ancestors of these groups live in southern Egypt/Upper Kush. This would explain 1) the relationship between the Fula and Egyptian language of the 12th Dynasty 2) the introduction of the worship of Aman to the Egyptians a god worshipped by many Niger-Congo speakers, 3) the presence of Egyptian gods for selected nomes bearing West African ethnonyms and 4)the love of the basenji dog by the 12th Dynasty Egyptians.

Egypt was indeed a Pan-African civilization


.
 
Posted by The Gaul (Member # 16198) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
Now what was it The Frenchman said?
quote:
Originally posted by The Gaul:
... I have full belief of what West African and Fulnai scholars have to say, ...
. . . .
a FULANI scholar ... knows the people of his area and does his work truly as a scholar, not to be undermined by a non-African foreigner who would think they know these people better ...

Hmmm, I guess not, if that non-African foreigner is
named Smith and the Fulani scholar is the reknowned
West African Fulani Amadou Hampâté Bâ (Gd rest him).
Read his chapter 8 'The Living Tradition' starting
at pg62 in UNESCO's General History of Africa vol 1

Oh Al, how quickly we jump fences don't we? Of all the Fulani and Wolof scholars and historians that have been repeated (Diop, Lam, Dyao, Yaya), of which you completely seem to ignore, you wait until I bring doubt on Fulani as a culture in SE ALgeria rather than just proto pastoral Africans, THEN you decide to jump on the balls of Ba? What took you so long? Just as you have cast doubt on the multitude of West African scholars work presented ad nauseum, I brought out the same that goes against your own agenda, then you decide to hop on the West African scholar train, which doesn't necessarily support a non-Nile Valley origin, since Ba makes no claims on that subject. I beginning to be able to read you like a book fence jumper...I knew this reponse was coming from you (or the fake explorer).

Back on the topic of Fulani origins, we have this from the late, great, much appreciated and never forgotten scholar Ivan Van Sertima's book "The Golden Age of the Moor", which I do believe has been passively brought up on this board before, but not in this context:

Pg. 120, sub-chapter: "The Fulani as Gaitules"

quote:
Probably the best living example in North Africa of those originally nomadic peoples called Libyans are the modern "red" or pastoral Fulani (as opposed to settled Fulani) especially belonging to the area of Niger and Mali. Though they themselves are probably descendents of only one of the waves of Libyans from the east, they represent the black Berber or "hamitic" prototype which has existed in the Sahara for at least 5,000 years. At Jabbaren, the rock art shows cattle transporting the armature of huts which is a practice maintained by the Fulani and the head gear, clothing, and most typical physical characteristics of the human figures of the pastoral period are said to resemble the present day Fulani. They have, except their language, many habits of dress and accoutrements in common with Somali and Rendili and at times a strong familial resemblance to Cushitic peoples in general.
To which I already mentioned how Somali and other horners I have heard speak about exactly what Sertima mentioned in the last sentence. Continuing...

quote:
These nomads are one of the few tribes whose attire still resembles the long garments worn by the Lybians on ancient Egyptian tomb paintings after the New Empire. On these garments are the same designs that appear on C-group pottery and in Lybian tattoos. They also wear the same hats and peculiar Lybian side-lock and other coiffures shown in representations of ancient Lybians. They still practice the burning of the temples of infants which Herodotus mentions as being common to all Lybians. They often have a hairstyle in which they leave their hair long in the back like the ancient Lybians called Machlyes. Their women wear hair in a crest like the Cushitic speakers and the other Berbers of the southern Sahara which was said to be typical of Lybian women. This form of hairdress is shown often in ancient rock art now in the Sahara (It was apparently a very ancient practice and of totemic or religious significance: It is found among dark-skinned Yemeni women as well).

The pastoral Fulani are the only people in West Africa who milk their cattle and though they have been touched by modernization, rarely did they raise cattle for food. (The ancient Lybians did not eat the cow, considering them sacred). Like many traditional Cushitic and Nilo-Saharan peoples they tend to know each of the members of their herds by name and treat them with great affection and respect.

The Fulanis of Takrur were called Beni Warith or Waritan of the Beni Goddala or Jeddala in the Annales Regnum Mauritanie (Annals of the Mauritian Kings) and the annals of El Bekri. They were said to have once lived in the Mauritian Adrar. Goddala is the Arab pronunciation of the earlier Gaituli of the Roman historians. The Gaitules were the most populous of the Lybian tribes of Strabos time (1st Century AD) Josephus around the same time period claimed that they were the same as the Evalioi of Kush or the peoples of ancient Avalis (Hevila) - the Zeila of present day Somalia, which might explain why Fulani today resemble so much the people of that region.

The Goddala were considered one of the major Berber tribes by Arab writers and the brethren of the Anbiya (Anbat) and Sanhaja or Berbers of the Maghrib. Futhermore, when the Fulani were first encountered by European colonists, they spoke more than one language. One of these is connected to other West African languages. The other one, however, was considered different enough for the explorers to speculate that it was more related to dialects outside Africa.


 
Posted by The Gaul (Member # 16198) on :
 
Continuing on, pg. 121, "C-group as Ancestors of the Eastern Lybians":

quote:
There is a strong resemblance, according to a number of scholars, between the anceint prehistoric culture of the Southern Sahara and those of the ancient pastoral cultures in Nubia especially represented by the C-group population. One specialist in African archaeology, David Phillipson, has relatively recently stated that the affinities of C-group pottery strongly suggest a Saharan origin. However Gabriel Camps before this had shown that ancient Saharan industries possessed close affinity with the neolithic industries of the Nilotic area. The rock art of the Tassili region of Algeria and also in Ennedi of Chad and the Tibesti region, a pastoral period between the 4th and 3rd milleniums B.C., depicted cattle with horns deformed and with curious pendants typical of those of the Nubian, especially C-group area and further east. Fine sculptured cattle and other anthropomorphic cult figurines appear at the sites as they do east of the Nile. The men are often represented, according to camps, as men resembling the Fulani, slim with dark complexions and small pointed beards rather like those portrayed on rock art of the Arabian desert spoken by Anati. Ancient stone tumulus graves in the western part of the Southern Saharan are reminiscent of those built by C-group.

The territory of the Tamahou or Tjemehu has been suggested to have corresponded to the general area of the C-group populations who occupied the Lybian desert of Sudan and parts of Nubia. Both A. Arkell and Bates had come to conclude that the C-group Nubians represented a Lybian people. A. Arkell and Bates also felt the people of this culture (C-group) were the Lybians whom the Egyptians called Tjemehu, who are mentioned as early as the 6th dynasty inscription in a land to the south of Egypt. C-group pottery has been found in Gilf Kabir in Lybia and the Wadi Howar to the west of Nubia in the Lybian desert. C-group people were also affiliated with the kingdom of Kerma in Nubia.


And of the term "Tamahou", pgs. 25 & 26:

quote:
Reynolds quotes Behrens and Arkell stating that [in the Tamahu] they identify a C-group culture which was "tall, slender, and obviously black..." What makes this so obvious and who is stating this, Behrens and Arkell, Reynolds, or a third party whom Reynolds is quoting? Her statements suggests she is quoting someone else who is quoting these sources and that they have not been thorough in their research. Etymology in this case is unwavering and inflexible and states most assuredly that the Egyptian word Tamahou means "the white people"!!! In regards to Reynolds comments on the Tehenou, it has been acknowledged by Egyptologists and historians alike who have correctly translated the hieroglyphs that this group was of the black race. Diop writing in 1955 states, "The Tehenou or black Lebou was probably the ancestor of the modern Lebou...These Blacks preceded the Temehou or white Lybians in that region of the western Delta. The existence of the first black inhabitant, the Tenehu, made it possible to create confusion over the term "brown Lybian..."

That among the predominant black types, there was also an Euro-Asiatic species of man in Egypt from a very early historical period is fact. That they in later times came to be known as Lybians is also fact. That these Lybians amalgamated with the indigenous blacks of the area which eventually produced what came to be called the "Tawny or white Moor" is also irrefutable. Reynolds cannot afford to misrepresent the historical ledger because she wants to paint the entire population of Africa as black when there is substantial evidence to the contrary.


 
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
Dr. Winters

Re-examine the thread. Somebody here did make such claim.

Homburger, on the otherhand, denies Fulfulde as
12th dynasty AEL by the very passage you presented
from a seondary source.

It was Alain Anselin. Yet he goes on to make it clear that the Egyptians and Fula were related. He also adds the Dravidians to the mix.

.

Yes I remember earlier when you cited one scholar as evidence of support for the notion that Dravidian originate in Africa based on Dravidian / Fula ties...... when in fact the scholar was claiming the Fulani originated in India.

Is this still the same bait and switch game you are playing?
 
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by rasol:
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
Dr. Winters

Re-examine the thread. Somebody here did make such claim.

Homburger, on the otherhand, denies Fulfulde as
12th dynasty AEL by the very passage you presented
from a seondary source.

It was Alain Anselin. Yet he goes on to make it clear that the Egyptians and Fula were related. He also adds the Dravidians to the mix.

.

Yes I remember earlier when you cited one scholar as evidence of support for the notion that Dravidian originate in Africa based on Dravidian / Fula ties...... when in fact the scholar was claiming the Fulani originated in India.

Is this still the same bait and switch game you are playing?

I never heard of this. Who said the Fula came from India? Please direct us to this statement.

.
 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Don't be such a grandstanding gay ass. I used Ba
in this thread well before my last post. I've used
Ba long before you disgraced this forum with your
presence.

Just accept the shame of a hypocrite who shifted
gears from grandstanding about staunchly relying
on West African scholars over others and then used
a book learned European to supposedly counter Ba
who was the most renowned Fulani traditional and
western trained scholarof the 20th century.

And if you're going to separate al~Takruri don't
be so ignorant as to use the al instead of the
Takruri. Using al is as stupid as using 'the'
in The Gaul. And as a Frenchman why are you
so interested in making a people you don't
belong to, from a continent not of your
homeland, into something they are not?





quote:
Originally posted by The Gaul:
... you wait until I bring doubt on Fulani as a culture in SE ALgeria rather than just proto pastoral Africans, THEN you decide to jump on the balls of Ba?


 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
What you are up against is the inability to put up
a single AE document mentioning a Fulani ethny. Just
imagine, here a people who literally have listed hundreds
of ethnies from three continents -- not deity names
but flesh and blood ethny names -- somehow left not one
record of a Fulani people. Amazing?

No, not amazing. Because the Fulani were not a people
known to dynastic Egypt,12 dynasty nor any other.

This is the dogma you spread (and dogma is a forced belief
not based on rational thought) The Egyptian Origin of
the Fulani. It is dogma because you can't support it
with written evidence from a literate society. A society
which by the way did not visit much less settle as
immigrants outside of their homeland. A literate society
that did leave on record how much they disdained the
thought of being away from their Beloved Land for any
reason.

You know you irk me when you put words in my mouth
in order for you to gain mass appeal in lieau of
doing the right thing in posting the normal things
indicative of a migration of a people. Don't try me.
Stick to presenting your points in a manner worthy
of discussion between disagreeing colleagues.

quote:
Originally posted by Wally:
Dr. Winters,
As you no doubt have witnessed in this thread is that we are up against a dogma, ...


 
Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
 
rasol wrote:
-------------------------
-------------------------


You say Wally is bright. But he says the nonsense throughtout this thread. Obviously he is both dumb and psychologically damaged.


Therefore how bright can you be to deem such a fool as intelligent? LOL
 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
This would not make for Egyptian origins. It would
make for Levantine origins. Hyksos derives from AEL
heqa x3st, i.e., foreigners who are rulers.

This is a part of the Fulani legend that ascribes
Judeo-Syrian ethnicity for the ancestress and two
male
ancestors of the first halPulaaren/FulFulde.

This is one of a set of Fulani legends no one here would
want to hear. It is of a legend that names the starting
point of the migration, the causes leading up to the
migration, stops along the initial path of the migration,
the split of the immigrants and the subsequent secondary
paths, the centuries long interaction with the polity
the migrants encountered at their first sahel/savannah
settlement, the falling out and movement to the migrants' next
major settling, the reuniting of the two migrant factors
that separated centuries earlier, and the final settlement
in Senegal/Mauritania.
migratory names and


quote:
Originally posted by Red,White, and Blue + Christian:
I wasn't going to come back either, but these postings are bothering me.

http://www.muslimsinamerica.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=16&Itemid=28

I was scanning quickly through books on African American slaves and saw that one of our ancestors claimed Ancient Egyptian origin.

He was a Foulah namd Ben Ali and he wrote/said that the Foulah were descended from the Hyksos/Shepard Kings.


 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Van Sertima didn't mention anything you fool.

Why don't you know the difference between an editor
of a journal (van Sertima) and an author of one of a
journal's selections (Reynolds-Marniche)?


quote:
Originally posted by The Gaul:

... Ivan Van Sertima's book "The Golden Age of the Moor",

. . .

Pg. 120, sub-chapter: "The Fulani as Gaitules"

quote:
... They have, except their language, many habits of dress and accoutrements in common with Somali and Rendili and at times a strong familial resemblance to Cushitic peoples in general.
To which I already mentioned how Somali and other horners I have heard speak about exactly what Sertima mentioned in the last sentence. Continuing...



 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Golbéry first made that claim in 1786. Many have
repeated it since then. There are even some Bororo
Fulani who reguritate it nowadays.


BTW Homburger's final postulation was that AEL
derived from Indian language making Indians the
root of Africans.

quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:
Originally posted by rasol:
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
It was Alain Anselin. Yet he goes on to make it clear that the Egyptians and Fula were related. He also adds the Dravidians to the mix.

.

Yes I remember earlier when you cited one scholar as evidence of support for the notion that Dravidian originate in Africa based on Dravidian / Fula ties...... when in fact the scholar was claiming the Fulani originated in India.


I never heard of this. Who said the Fula came from India? Please direct us to this statement.

.


 
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
It appears that you are right Homburger did believe Africans came from India


 
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
Although Homburger believed that Africans originated in India we know today from the archaeology that the Dravidians originated in Africa.

 -

Kerma
 -

 -

Nubian Pottery

B.B. Lal (1963) proved conclusively that the Dravidians were genetically related to the C group of Nubia, given the fact that both groups used 1) a common BRW, 2) a common burial complex incorporating megaliths and circular rock enclosures and 3) a common type of rock cut sepulchre.

 -

 -


South India

The BRW industry diffused from Nubia, across West Asia into Rajastan, and thence to East Central and South India. (Rao 1972:34)
 
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
Gaul you are right about the Tehenu. The Tehenu are often associated with the C-Group people. Dravidians and Niger-Congo speakers can trace their descent back to these groups.

Amratian Pottery

 -

The Egyptians and West Africans formerly lived together in the highland areas of Africa, I call "The Fertile African Cresent", until they moved into the Nile delta (the Egyptians) and West Africa (Niger-Congo speakers). These Proto-Saharans were called Ta-Seti and Tehenu by the Egyptians. Farid(1985,p.82) noted that "We can notice that the beginning of the Neolithic stage in Egypt on the edge of the Western Desert corresponds with the expansion of the Saharian Neolithic culture and the growth of its population" (emphasis that of author).

A Tehenu personage is depicted on Amratian period pottery (Farid 1985 ,p. 84). The Tehenu wore pointed beard, phallic-sheath and feathers on their head.


Tehenu on Amratian Pottery

 -

The red-and-black pottery was probably created by the C-Group people. They spread this ceramic style throughout Asia and Middle Africa.

The inhabitants of the Fezzan were round headed black Africans (Jelinek, 1985,p.273). The cultural characteristics of the Fezzanese were analogous to C-Group culture items and the people of Ta-Seti . The C-Group people occupied the Sudan and Fezzan regions between 3700-1300 BC (Jelinek 1985).

The inhabitants of Libya were called Tmhw (Temehus). The Temehus were organized into two groups the Thnw (Tehenu) in the North and the Nhsj (Nehesy) in the South (Diop 1986).

The Temehus are called the C-Group people by archaeologists (Jelinek,1985; Quellec, 1985). The central Fezzan was a center of C-Group settlement.

Members of the C-Group probably entered Egypt and founded some of the Southern nomes associated with the Inyotefs.

Quellec (1985, p.373) discussed in detail the presence of C-Group culture traits in the Central Fezzan along with their cattle during the middle of the Third millennium BC. The Temehus or C-Group people began to settle Kush around 2200 BC.

The kings of Kush had their capital at Kerma, in Dongola and a sedentary center on Sai Island. The same pottery found at Kerma is also present in Libya especially the Fezzan. There are similarities between Egyptian and Saharan motifs (Farid,1985). It was in the Sahara that we find the first evidence of agriculture, animal domestication and weaving (Farid ,1985, p.82).
 
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
 
(sigh...sigh...sigh...)

alTakruri,
The Ethnic names Akan, Fante, Yoruba, Hausa...are relatively singular and stable and therefore are easier to search for in the Mdu Ntr but on the contrary look at the difficulty you encounter with the "Fulani" ethnic group: Fula, Fulani, Fulbe, Peul, Peulh, Peuhl, Pulaar, Fulfulde...

Since you seem to stubbornly insist on my finding this group's ethnic title, I first need to know what it is???

Ex: if it were - in the old days in Algeria - "Peul" then I would know to look for it within the following categories "pr" & "fr" in the dictionary - you see?

I have personally seen enough evidence to convince me that the Fulani once resided in the Nile Valley, but because of your insistence on this little (and it is little) detail "it must be in writing," I will find this information for you, if you provide me with the singular (or two) self-identification name of these people from the earliest times...
[Cool] Thanx
 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
The subject is Fulani. Dancing an "Akan, Fante, Yoruba,
Hausa..." beat doesn't help you. Being cluelessly unable
to differentiate what Fulani call themselves versus
what others call them does not help you. Invoking names
of deities does not help you. And guess what? Al~Takruri
does not help you.

You must be the one to support your own viewpoint.
Don't expect me to do it for you. Hundreds of ethnonyms
are in the AEL records. You go find the applicable
one yourself.

I maintain that the first rcorded instance of Fulani
cultural traits happened in West Africa over 5000
years
ago. If you disagree fine, but archaeology is in agrement.
All the emotionallyc feinted sighs in the world will
never replace academic proofing.

Bring us some on an autonymous ethny in AE answering
your thread header The Egyptian Origin of the Fulani,
please. It's ludicrous (laugh laugh laugh) to propose
that and then not even know the name they call themselves.


quote:
Originally posted by Wally:
(sigh...sigh...sigh...)

alTakruri,
The Ethnic names Akan, Fante, Yoruba, Hausa...are relatively singular and stable and therefore are easier to search for in the Mdu Ntr but on the contrary look at the difficulty you encounter with the "Fulani" ethnic group: Fula, Fulani, Fulbe, Peul, Peulh, Peuhl, Pulaar, Fulfulde...

Since you seem to stubbornly insist on my finding this group's ethnic title, I first need to know what it is???

Ex: if it were - in the old days in Algeria - "Peul" then I would know to look for it within the following categories "pr" & "fr" in the dictionary - you see?

I have personally seen enough evidence to convince me that the Fulani once resided in the Nile Valley, but because of your insistence on this little (and it is little) detail "it must be in writing," I will find this information for you, if you provide me with the singular (or two) self-identification name of these people from the earliest times...
[Cool] Thanx


 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
With this much alone I can 99% agree with, my caveat
being that Egypt was also populated from Sudan as well
as from what now are desert lands to its west.

The thing is that archaeologically speaking the Lower
Nile Valley is a place that evidences human settlement
and occupation from before even the Early Stone Age
clear up to our times. Which of course makes it very
interesting about the formation of the kingdom and
supporting the underlying multi-ethnic composition
of dynastic Egypt.

quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


The Egyptians and West Africans formerly lived together in the highland areas of Africa, I call "The Fertile African Cresent", until they moved into the Nile delta (the Egyptians) and West Africa (Niger-Congo speakers).


 
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
The ethnic name for the Fulani is: Fulbe.

The names for the Fula language are Pulaar on the West coast and Fulfulde from west to Sudan.

.


quote:
Originally posted by Wally:
(sigh...sigh...sigh...)

alTakruri,
The Ethnic names Akan, Fante, Yoruba, Hausa...are relatively singular and stable and therefore are easier to search for in the Mdu Ntr but on the contrary look at the difficulty you encounter with the "Fulani" ethnic group: Fula, Fulani, Fulbe, Peul, Peulh, Peuhl, Pulaar, Fulfulde...

Since you seem to stubbornly insist on my finding this group's ethnic title, I first need to know what it is???

Ex: if it were - in the old days in Algeria - "Peul" then I would know to look for it within the following categories "pr" & "fr" in the dictionary - you see?

I have personally seen enough evidence to convince me that the Fulani once resided in the Nile Valley, but because of your insistence on this little (and it is little) detail "it must be in writing," I will find this information for you, if you provide me with the singular (or two) self-identification name of these people from the earliest times...
[Cool] Thanx


 
Posted by Red,White, and Blue + Christian (Member # 10893) on :
 
Al Takruri,

The people here on EgyptSearch have been very slack when discovering the latest DNA data. I have the latest reports and you and I must rethink everything.

I finally started to do a seriuos look at the Igbo and kept saying to myself that the look like the Fulani and the Yoruba look the the Igbo etc.

Genetically speaking the Nigerian Fulani = Yourba = Hausa = Igbo.

In otherwords, they are the same people!!!!!!!!

The tribal differences are all in their minds.

Just as the Senegalese Peul = Mandenka = Wolof = Serer.

Location is most important.

There were pyramids in Igboland and obelisks in Yorubaland. The Ancient Egyptians or Nubians influenced Nigerians before tribes developed.

The Hyksos could have come in the form of R1b carrying males to Nigeria and Cameroon early on!!
 
Posted by The Gaul (Member # 16198) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
Van Sertima didn't mention anything you fool.

Why don't you know the difference between an editor
of a journal (van Sertima) and an author of one of a
journal's selections (Reynolds-Marniche)?


quote:
Originally posted by The Gaul:

... Ivan Van Sertima's book "The Golden Age of the Moor",

. . .

Pg. 120, sub-chapter: "The Fulani as Gaitules"

quote:
... They have, except their language, many habits of dress and accoutrements in common with Somali and Rendili and at times a strong familial resemblance to Cushitic peoples in general.
To which I already mentioned how Somali and other horners I have heard speak about exactly what Sertima mentioned in the last sentence. Continuing...



The fact that you mentioned Van Sertima is the EDITOR of this journal, presented as a book gives more wieght to the argument, since it is he who has the last say in who and what is allowed to be voiced in this journal. Anything he disagreed with he gave his own take on it throughout this journal in book form, if you bothered to read it.

Whats presented here, as EDITED by VAN SERTIMA is that its a forgone conclusion that the Fulani represent the ancient Libyians, who's ancestors were C-group (NILE VALLEY) Nubians. The only points of contention here is when the pale faced "Tamahou" or Libyans arrived. Dana Reynolds says they came later and that "Tamahou" merely came to be a reference to the foreign invaders who later became mercenaries, while Chandler beleives these pale-skinned "foreigners" were always there, while still acknowledging that the "Tenehou" were the C-group Nubians that PRECEDED the "Tamahou" in ancient Libya and represented today by groups like the Fulani.

I've been gone for a while, but since I'm back, I think it's high time for you to start presenting some real, hard evidence as to where Fulani were between the time of the Saharan rock art paintings and later when showed up in modern Mauritania. That is a huge gap for which you have presented NO evidence from anyone to fill, while those of us on the other side have provided countless lines of evidence to the contrary.

Time to stop the shallow American Patriot like rebuttals and provide your own evidence that places them outside of the Nile Valley for THIS time gap. Plain and simple.
 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
I deign to respond because of your ad hominem but
vanSertima does not interject in his journals. He
has an overview section more or less introducing
each author and article.

In regards to Golden Age of the Moor being a book
or a journal, it's frontpiece clearly labels it the
JOURNAL OF AFRICAN CIVILIZATIONS
VOL. II
FALL, 1991
GOLDEN AGE OF THE MOOR


The material in the journal is presented by van
Sertima without prejudice or preference. This
well suits a professor who doesn't micro-dictate
his students and colleagues directions.

Those of us who aren't pack-asses know to credit
the actual author of a journal's article (or a
book's chapter) not the editor. Only a jackass
carrying books (it cannot understand) would make
the other mistake.

For pertinent for dumbasses is this note actually
penned by the editor Ivan Van Sertima himself:
Lay-readers are advised to concentrate on the
introduction and conclusions to Reynolds' essay,
since the bulk of it is presented in a style
intended primarily for the perusal of specialists.


As for the Fulani. I'm done. I see no need to repeat
myself and yet again answer a challenge that the poser
thereof has failed miserably to do for his own case
of fantasy.


quote:
Originally posted by The Gaul:
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
Van Sertima didn't mention anything you fool.

Why don't you know the difference between an editor
of a journal (van Sertima) and an author of one of a
journal's selections (Reynolds-Marniche)?


quote:
Originally posted by The Gaul:

... Ivan Van Sertima's book "The Golden Age of the Moor",

. . .

Pg. 120, sub-chapter: "The Fulani as Gaitules"

quote:
... They have, except their language, many habits of dress and accoutrements in common with Somali and Rendili and at times a strong familial resemblance to Cushitic peoples in general.
To which I already mentioned how Somali and other horners I have heard speak about exactly what Sertima mentioned in the last sentence. Continuing...



The fact that you mentioned Van Sertima is the EDITOR of this journal, presented as a book gives more wieght to the argument, since it is he who has the last say in who and what is allowed to be voiced in this journal. Anything he disagreed with he gave his own take on it throughout this journal in book form, if you bothered to read it.

Whats presented here, as EDITED by VAN SERTIMA is that its a forgone conclusion that the Fulani represent the ancient Libyians, who's ancestors were C-group (NILE VALLEY) Nubians. The only points of contention here is when the pale faced "Tamahou" or Libyans arrived. Dana Reynolds says they came later and that "Tamahou" merely came to be a reference to the foreign invaders who later became mercenaries, while Chandler beleives these pale-skinned "foreigners" were always there, while still acknowledging that the "Tenehou" were the C-group Nubians that PRECEDED the "Tamahou" in ancient Libya and represented today by groups like the Fulani.

I've been gone for a while, but since I'm back, I think it's high time for you to start presenting some real, hard evidence as to where Fulani were between the time of the Saharan rock art paintings and later when showed up in modern Mauritania. That is a huge gap for which you have presented NO evidence from anyone to fill, while those of us on the other side have provided countless lines of evidence to the contrary.

Time to stop the shallow American Patriot like rebuttals and provide your own evidence that places them outside of the Nile Valley for THIS time gap. Plain and simple.


 
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
 
quote:
I have personally seen enough evidence to convince me that the Fulani once resided in the Nile Valley,
^ They are nomadic so you might claim them once residing anywhere from the Red (Black) sea, to Senegal.

The original claim is for Egyptian *origin*.

Read the title of your thread, and notice how your latest posts tries to sneak away from it.

I never let anyone argue by changing their claims.

No evidence has been presented for the original claim - - - period.
 
Posted by The Gaul (Member # 16198) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
[qb] I deign to respond because of your ad hominem but
vanSertima does not interject in his journals. He
has an overview section more or less introducing
each author and article.

In regards to Golden Age of the Moor being a book
or a journal, it's frontpiece clearly labels it the
JOURNAL OF AFRICAN CIVILIZATIONS
VOL. II
FALL, 1991
GOLDEN AGE OF THE MOOR


The material in the journal is presented by van
Sertima without prejudice or preference. This
well suits a professor who doesn't micro-dictate
his students and colleagues directions.

Those of us who aren't pack-asses know to credit
the actual author of a journal's article (or a
book's chapter) not the editor. Only a jackass
carrying books (it cannot understand) would make
the other mistake.

For pertinent for dumbasses is this note actually
penned by the editor Ivan Van Sertima himself:
Lay-readers are advised to concentrate on the
introduction and conclusions to Reynolds' essay,
since the bulk of it is presented in a style
intended primarily for the perusal of specialists.


As for the Fulani. I'm done. I see no need to repeat
myself and yet again answer a challenge that the poser
thereof has failed miserably to do for his own case
of fantasy.



Once again, the only thing you are capable of doing on this subject is offer an empty opinion to deny a Nile Valley origin. Who is the real jackass here? Very American Patriot like. Even the name calling is starting to be reminiscent of AP. You surely do not know the duty of an editor of a journal in book form if you think Van Sertima has no influence on what is presented in a work done in HIS name. He is the one who CONTACTED BOTH authors and presented their work here. That was HIS choice to do so as the editor as he stated he had corresponded with both long before this book.

Regardless of any of that, you did not refute what the 2 authors presented on that subject in that book, nor do you offer any alternative backed by any hard line of evidence. Why? Surely these people didn't appear in 5000 BCE in Tassili (a site with obvious contacts to the Nile Valley), then disappear until 400 AD. Where were they all that time? What and where is your evidence outside the Nile Valley?

Produce some evidence that places the people, and more importantly, Pulaaku culture outside of the Nile Valley. The dress of the figures in the paintings of the "Tenehou", the ceramics, the cattle burials around Nabta Playa, the oral traditions already presented in the other thread from West African scholars and griots, the words that match Mdu Ntr, the similarities in culture with pastoral Nilotes of Sudan to Somalia (The only one in West Africa) are all lines of evidence worth note.

You, on the other hand, present absolutely NOTHING that places the origin anywhere else. Not northern Cameroon, not Senegal, not Mauritania, not Northern Nigeria...you have presented absolutely NOTHING to this effect. Certainly nothing to vehemently disagree with people who have done much more FIELD work than you. I doubt if you have even had your feet on the continent yet.

If you have any evidence besides whats found from 400 a.d., please present it to help your argument. Otherwise, it is YOU who have nothing to stand on.
 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Breying donkey carrying books you can't understand.

People come here to read my work because of the
sources I cite and for my original insights and my
piercing critical analyses.

Nobody knows who you are or values your opinion
or comes here to soak up your dumbassed slobber.

So take your tired ass home to your stable donkey boy
that's if you can step your way through the maze of
shifting goalposts you've shitted all over the place.
 
Posted by The Gaul (Member # 16198) on :
 
^^ All the childish name calling only shows that you have some growing up to do. You did not refute anything presented by the two authors. You provide no exact alternative origin. All of this is notwithstanding of your opinion on the Nile Valley origin. If not the Nile Valley....then where? Where is your critical analysis on that? Where is your evidence on that? Where are your original insights (read: educated opinion) on that?

I could care less who values my opinion or not. I don't live on this forum to gain friends or get brownie points from internet strangers, when I can talk to highly educated West African people, who know themselves and the people of this subject better than you do, face to face. This forum is simply an outlet to recieved and give information... child. Not a place to gain a fanclub for the lonely.

I presented my beliefs on this because this is what I have come to know from when I was IN West Africa and from people FROM there I have spoken to. I then gathered the works of individual scholars (mostly West African), who provided evidence to support what I had been hearing all along.

Be that as it may. Present your information and hard evidence that supports an origin outside the Nile Valley regardless of anyone else's opinion here. Simply saying they originated in "West Africa" is not enough and very vague, given the large territory that West Africa covers. This is something you can do completely independent of anything presented or said by anyone else in this thread.

Otherwise, wash your mouth out with soap and shut the **** up child!
 
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by rasol:
quote:
I have personally seen enough evidence to convince me that the Fulani once resided in the Nile Valley,
^ They are nomadic so you might claim them once residing anywhere from the Red (Black) sea, to Senegal.

The original claim is for Egyptian *origin*.

Read the title of your thread, and notice how your latest posts tries to sneak away from it.

I never let anyone argue by changing their claims.

No evidence has been presented for the original claim - - - period.

No evidence?!? Noooone?!?

Exhibit A
quote:

Fulani history
Some historians believe the Fulani emerged from a prehistoric pastoral group that originated in the upper Nile region around 3500 B.C. As the climate of the Sahara grew increasingly harsh, population pressures drove them to migrate slowly west and south in search of better grazing lands. By the eleventh century the Fulani emerged as a distinct people group in the Sénégambia Valley. Over the next 400 years they journeyed back east, but south of the Sahara, which had become an inhospitable desert...

Exhibit B

here's some linguistic data comparing Fulani --- Mdu Ntr...

I - mi --- ni
you - on --- un
we - en --- un
they - be --- bu (people)
to be bad - bonude --- boone
bad - boni --- bon
death; to die - maayde;maayude --- maati, moute, moout, mouti
last year - rawanen --- snouf; ronpe
eye - yitere --- eirti
blessing - barka --- baraka
cow - nagge --- naga
father - baaba --- baba
...

Exhibit C

A statement from The Gaul:
"I think we allow ourselves to fall into a trap set forth mainly by non-Africans, i.e. Explorer, in erroneously believing that showing a link to the NV somehow relegates all of our other African kingdoms and societies to "doormat" status in comparison to AE. Completely mis-guided and a falsehood.
The central point is to show the interrelatedness and affinites of many, if not ALL African people in which one of the points of high concentration, at one point in time, was the Nile Valley. Despite the well documented diversity of Africa and Africans, the Nile Valley is one area where similarities can be highlighted to show that we are "one". This is what has been well documented by our African scholars and is the central point being put forth here, specifically with Fulani in this thread.
This does NOT stretch so far back in time as it would pre-date man leaving Africa to populate the rest of the world, and does NOT suggest all africans left the Nile Valley or highlands of the Sahara at the same time, as Dhar Tichitt is an prime example with the Mande. "

Exhibit D

A statement from Dr. Winters
"You admit that Diop has presented hundreds of Wolof terms that are related to Egyptian. If we use Jaja's reasoning we must declare that since Fula is related to Wolof, and Wolof is related to Egyptian, Fula is related to Egyptian.
In this thread we have not made this silly argument. We have presented linguistic and other data supporting the Egyptian origin of the Fula and that the Fula did not originate in West Africa. In fact, none of the West Atlantic languages originated in West Africa."

Exhibit E

The Gaul:
"Once again, there is NO EVIDENCE that the rock paintings in Tassili pre-dates those found in other areas of the Nile Valley and conitinuing to the Red Sea. These have been dated to at least 5000 BC by using the time of extinction of a certain herd of wild cattle, which were found also in the cave paintings as far east as Somalia . There is also nothing that distinctly says the rock paintings in Tassili are that of Fulani, only that a certain ceremony and milk containors are prevelent, but of which is also found among other semi-nomadic, pastorolists such as Masaai and those in preset day Sudan. For instance, the Fulani "calf-rope" is not seen in the Tassili paintings.
On this subject, doubt can be cast on everything, so it seems prudent to go with the linguistic and cultural evidence Fulani and Wolof scholars have brought out, especially one who claimed this back in the late 1800s."

Exhibit F

Clarifying the simple meaning of the topic's title: The Egyptian origin of the Fulani:
ie, an English lesson...

Origin -birth, descent, extraction, family tree, genealogy, line, lineage, parentage...
- People certainly can and do originate in two, and usually in many places:
a) my birth origin is Louisiana
b) my descent is African
c) my lineage is from many places in Africa, a smidgen of European, and perhaps a dash of Native American...
--as Dr. Winters has so accurately pointed out, even the Ancient Egyptians did not originate in Egypt; yet they are from Egypt - you certainly understand this process, and for you to maintain that the Fulani, who have originated in more places in Africa than perhaps any other African ethnic group, did not spend some time 'originating' in Ancient Egypt, boggles the mind. The Fulani of the Sudan are from Sudan, that is thus, their place of origin...

Exhibit G

a point of clarification of the evidence by Dr. Winters
"No one has said anything about a migration out of Egypt during the 12th Dynasty. Homburger uses linguistic data to indicate that the Egyptian language spoken during this period agrees with the Fulani language."

Exhibit H

Dr. Winters,
As you no doubt have witnessed in this thread is that we are up against a dogma, not the same dogma as put out by the looneys who post here, this is dogma with intelligence, but dogma none the less. The Dogma is this: Africans might have migrated from any other place in Africa or have originated any where else in Africa except Ancient Egypt or the Nile Valley!We have presented here: linguistic evidence, cultural evidence, Griot historical evidence, the works of scholars, only to be called 'disingeneous' - a euphemism for ' lier' despite:

a) The names of several African ethnic groups are identical to Ancient Egyptian gods, or have a ring of Nobility or status within Ancient Egypt - The Akan, The Fanti, The BaTutsi, The Yoruba, the Hausa...

b) We also have shown that a Wolof could understand an Ancient Egyptian speaker in the same manner that a Portuguese can understand an Italian speaker, perhaps to an even greater degree...

c) We have shown a close relationship between Fulani, Wolof, and Yoruba, and the Mdu Ntr, which is genetic...

d) BaTutsi Griot legends tells us of their origins in the North, Fulani tell us directly of their sojourn in Ancient Egypt - alTakruri wants to see their emigration papers - The late Yoruba musician Fela was so taken with the knowledge of his ancestors emigration from the Nile Valley, he named his band Egypt87!

e) It blew my mind when a Yoruba friend, when I asked him - an obscure Mdu Ntr word "Noo" ; to erase, wipe - how do you say erase, wipe in Yoruba, and after some thought replied to me "Noo..."

f) The capital of Zimbabwe, named after that great African civilization is "Harare" - "Harare" means "flower" in the Mdu Ntr, a good name, like Addis Ababa (New Flower), for a city...

--We also presented the actual hieroglyph of the God Muntu -or "human or men"in Bantu, and is a center point in Bantu Philosophy and wisdom; Muntu was an Egyptian God, succeeded by Amon, and was the white bull god with a black face - and also an excellent book; Muntu: African Culture and the Western World by Janheinz Jahn and Marjorie Grene.--
[Cool]
 
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
Breying donkey carrying books you can't understand.

People come here to read my work because of the
sources I cite and for my original insights and my
piercing critical analyses.

Critical analysis like your pro-Zionist BS like your Maimonides apologia, denial of white Jewish separatist thinking and trying to pass off cracker Jews as "black"? Is this what you call critical analysis Great Jew?

 -
 
Posted by The Gaul (Member # 16198) on :
 
For those that refute and/or vehemently deny a Nile Valley origin, simply stating so is empty and takes away from this board.

Please provide your detailed, documented, hard evidence of an origin outside the Nile Valley, and lines of continuity via migration routes, for the education and sake of ES if this is what you beleive, for this has already been provided by those who believe in a Nile Valley origin, namely West African scholars such as Lam and Diop themselves.

All of the refutations so far have pretty much only amounted to "no they're not".
 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Anyone careful enough to read this thread from
page one can follow my argument. I feel no need
to constantly repeat it for breying jackasses with
zero retentive memory who carry books they can't
understand.

I will only respond to replies posted via the  -
button requesting clarification or expansion of
my position. I will ignore all such request made
in taunting tones or presented with ad hominem.
I tire of returning insults in kind. It cheapens the
learning experience and lowers me to the level of
the distractive detracting donkey who initiates it.
 
Posted by The Gaul (Member # 16198) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
Anyone careful enough to read this thread from
page one can follow my argument. I feel no need
to constantly repeat it for breying jackasses with
zero retentive memory who carry books they can't
understand.

I will only respond to replies posted via the  -
button requesting clarification or expansion of
my position. I will ignore all such request made
in taunting tones or presented with ad hominem.
I tire of returning insults in kind. It cheapens the
learning experience and lowers me to the level of
the distractive detracting donkey who initiates it.

Al, ( please don't start the BS trying to explain what your name means, as anyone with even a rudimentary knowledge of even spanish can decipher it ) anyone who claims a Nile Valley (namely a residence during Dynastic Egypt) origin of any black group outside of the present day Nile Valley inhabitants, besides Jews of course , gets the cheapening of a thread, let's hail insults treatment from YOU everytime. Namely childish Israelite pride retorts like this one, which has no place in this thread:

quote:
Daydreamers of Egyptian origins for Fulani or other
non-Egyptian ethnies can produce not a single
ethnonymous use of Tutsi, Akan, Fulani, etc.,
in any primary Rn Mdw document. All they can do is bewail the fact that such exists
for Israel. Envy is such a terrible resource wasting
thing, ain't it Wally.

Nobody said a word about Jewish origins or ties to dynastic Egypt in this thread.

Also, for those not only with zero retentive memory, but a selective one at that, your vague "Green Saharan/LSA SEA" Fulani origin theory (based on vaguely dated rock art!!) has already been dealt with in it's lack of succinct, dated, progressively documented evidence with regards to Fulani origin and migration routes, and does absolutely nothing to address a Nile Valley origin, nor does it address the succinct, dated, progressively documented evidence of those whom has put forth a Nile Valley origin such as the cattle burials at Nabta Playa, present day Nomadic Fulani dress AND hairstyles seen on AE tombs, and documented origin beliefs of Wolof and Fulani griots/scholars already presented from as far back as the late 1800s, amongst all other noteworthy lines of evidence.

Faint evidence that only may show temporary residence and relies on generalized dates due to the extinction of a breed of wild bull does little to sever a relationship and pre-dated origin to the Nile Valley, and is worthless here and doesn't address the below as it is carefully worded:

quote:
Please provide your detailed, documented, hard evidence of an origin outside the Nile Valley, and lines of continuity via migration routes, for the education and sake of ES if this is what you beleive, for this has already been provided by those who believe in a Nile Valley origin, namely West African scholars such as Lam and Diop themselves.

If you want to ignore this request based on a perceived "tone", then that cop out is always available on an internet forum.
 
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
 
quote:
Please provide your detailed, documented, hard evidence of an origin outside the Nile Valley.
^ textbook burden of proof fallacy.

learn how to argue logically.
 
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
 
fair is fair.......

quote:
Originally posted by

No evidence?!? Noooone?!?

Exhibit A
[QUOTE]
Fulani history
Some historians believe the Fulani emerged from a prehistoric pastoral group that originated in the upper Nile region around 3500 B.C.


^ If so, this would not be an Egyptian origin, but a pre Egyptian Origin.....pre-historic, in the words of your own quote.

I want to know if you acknowledge the evidence linking them to far more ancient Saharan cattle culture in Algeria is false? (you probably will skip this question in your reply)

If so, why?

If no, then, by what hubris, do you disregard in order to claim an Egyptian origin for them?

Is it because you "prefer" Dynastic Egypt to pre historical Algeria?

Anyway, your quote does not provide evidence for your claim.

Let's continue...
 
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
 
quote:
As the climate of the Sahara grew increasingly harsh, population pressures drove them to migrate slowly west and south in search of better grazing lands.
^ Probably defines most of the population of North Africa.

During the Holocene the sahara was green. During the Neolithic, it was dryer than it is now.
Egypt emerges after the Neolithic.

No proof here that the Fulani originated in Egypt at this time.
 
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
 
quote:
By the eleventh century the Fulani emerged as a distinct people group in the Sénégambia Valley. Over the next 400 years they journeyed back east, but south of the Sahara, which had become an inhospitable desert...
^Weird leap in time, from over 5000 thousand years ago, to only one thousand years ago.

Ironically the time skipped over is within the period you are making claims about.

So, can this validate your claims?

Logically no, and doesn't matter whether we're discussing Egypt or anything else.

This is about the process of validating a claim.

There is simply no proof for your claims in this material. It is enough to distract the weak minded, but nothing more than that.
 
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
 
quote:
Exhibit B

here's some linguistic data comparing Fulani --- Mdu Ntr...

I - mi --- ni
you - on --- un
we - en --- un
they - be --- bu (people)
to be bad - bonude --- boone
bad - boni --- bon
death; to die - maayde;maayude --- maati, moute, moout, mouti
last year - rawanen --- snouf; ronpe
eye - yitere --- eirti
blessing - barka --- baraka
cow - nagge --- naga
father - baaba --- baba
...


This is specious.

I grant a relationship between say, Ancient Egyptian and Somali, and between Hindi, and English.

This does not prove that English originate in India or Somali in Egypt.

You are required to show more than relationships between two African languages.

You must show that Fulani language derives from language of historical Egypt, and moreover, to such a degree that only demic diffusion can explain.

Similarities in words like "me you we I" are a far cry from that.

Those similarities might well date back to a common saharan origin of many africans from the Holocene long before the existence of Egypt.

And since this is something we agree on, it's not a point at issue.

It does not prove Egyptian origin of Fulani.
 
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
 
quote:

Exhibit C

A statement from The Gaul:
"I think we allow ourselves to fall into a trap.....[queue violin]

^ This is not evidence at all. It is special pleading. An appeal to emotions when facts are not in supply. Gaul does this a lot.

More is expected from you.
 
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
 
quote:
A statement from Dr. Winters
"You admit that Diop has presented hundreds of Wolof terms that are related to Egyptian. If we use Jaja's reasoning we must declare that since Fula is related to Wolof, and Wolof is related to Egyptian, Fula is related to Egyptian.

^ All Africans are related. Does this fact support the claim that all African originate in Ghana? Does this support the claim that all Africans originate in Zimbabwe? Of course not.
 
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
 
^ I am still waiting for the evidence.
 
Posted by The Gaul (Member # 16198) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by rasol:
quote:
Please provide your detailed, documented, hard evidence of an origin outside the Nile Valley.
^ textbook burden of proof fallacy.

learn how to argue logically.

No burden of proof fallacy. If you read anything in this thread and the other you would see the evidence as presented. Almost all who have seen the AE tomb wall paintings of the early dark-skinned "Tamahou" likens them to modern Woodaabi both in dress and hairstyle. They are compared to no other group in existence today. Diop, Lam, the authors in Van Sertima's book all agree on this. I've already gone over the other lines of evidence to consider. The issue now is for people like you to sever those lines in detail and "logically" without throwing out these vague, nearly dateless, vaguely directional ideas.

Learn how to address the points presented in a more scholarly, detailed fashion instead of these AP like one-liners.

The request you quoted can be done completely independent of anything else posted here. If you believe in a "green saharan" origin, provide as least as much detailed information as those who have provided for a Nile Valley origin. This shouldn't be difficult if it's as cut and dried as you make it out to be.
 
Posted by The Gaul (Member # 16198) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by rasol:
quote:
As the climate of the Sahara grew increasingly harsh, population pressures drove them to migrate slowly west and south in search of better grazing lands.
^ Probably defines most of the population of North Africa.

During the Holocene the sahara was green. During the Neolithic, it was dryer than it is now.
Egypt emerges after the Neolithic.

No proof here that the Fulani originated in Egypt at this time.

The Nile Valley was densely populated BEFORE the holocene period you have chosen, and it wasn't the entire "holocene" that brought a green Sahara. It was the early to mid Holocene that saw this to most people who have studied it. The people that would inhabit it already had their most of their cultural identity as is identifiable in the rock art paintings.

Just as is the case today, no reason that some of those who dispersed from the Nile Valley during the holocene wouldn't also return to it during the re-desertification. Tassili to Aswan is about 1400 miles. Tassili to Dakar is about 1400 miles. Tassili to Yaounde (Cameroon) is about 1200 miles.

A dryer Sahara never was and still isn't a barrier to human movement, especially nomadic people who are experts at traversing terrain they already knew well.

The "green Sahara" was only such so for a tear drop in the ocean of time as far as non-khoisan people.
 
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
 
quote:
The Nile Valley was densely populated BEFORE the holocene period you have chosen
Not sure that discussing the population in the Nile Valley in the Pre-Holocene, or "Paleolithic" would help prove anything about the Fulani?

Paleolithic peoples would be hunter gatherers - there are no domesticated cattle at this time. Fulani language and culture would not yet exist.

What are on earth then, are you even talking about?

Do you know?
 
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
 
quote:
It was the early to mid Holocene that saw this to most people who have studied it...
^ This is called fake contesting. It argues no point in contention, in order to evade dealing with your lack of evidence of the Egyptian origin of the Fulani. It isn't working.


quote:
No burden of proof fallacy.
Yes burden of proof fallacy and you're still doing it.

Every sentence you write with no proof of claims, and spurious arguments and/or 'requests' instead, equal burden of proof fallacy.
 
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
 
quote:
Almost all who have seen the AE tomb wall paintings of the early dark-skinned "Tamahou" likens them to modern Woodaabi both in dress and hairstyle.
Who is almost all?


Name your sources for the claim that Tamahou = Woodaabi.

Similarities and dress and hairstyle exists throughout Africa - it does not follow logically that Egyptian origin is demonstrated wherever similarity exists.

And in fact - It is *not* generally claimed by scholars, that Tamahou are Egyptian in origin, or that Tamahou are somehow Woodaabi.

Tamahou are more often linked to Berber, not Fulani.

You're not making any sense.

Indeed, I would like to know if Wally is claiming that the Fulani are the Tamahou, and Tamahou are Egyptians?

Really?

Since when?
 
Posted by The Gaul (Member # 16198) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by rasol:
quote:
The Nile Valley was densely populated BEFORE the holocene period you have chosen
Not sure that discussing the population in the Nile Valley in the Pre-Holocene, or "Paleolithic" would help prove anything about the Fulani?

Paleolithic peoples would be hunter gatherers - there are no domesticated cattle at this time. Fulani language and culture would not yet exist.

What are on earth then, are you even talking about?

Do you know?

This is called feigned ignorance and a simplistic game of cat-and-mouse.

The purpose was to show the density of the Valley and possible (and probable) relatedness of those who would later occupy the "green" sahara, as is indicated by the uniformity of rock art from the Sahara to the black sea, with only slight regional differences. No where in my statement did I mention "fulani" specifically for that point in time.

As for cattle domestication and worship, I'll assume you are feigning ignorance again with regards to some of the earliest known sites for this. Nabta Playa and Bir Kisieba, near Abu Simbel, give the pre-text and pre-date burials and presence in SE Algeria by ~500 to 1,500 years, depending on your source, and the Fertile Crescent. I don't see your point in even discussing cattle domestication with regards to my statement, then again, I'll just assume feigning childish naivete.
 
Posted by The Gaul (Member # 16198) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by rasol:
quote:
Almost all who have seen the AE tomb wall paintings of the early dark-skinned "Tamahou" likens them to modern Woodaabi both in dress and hairstyle.
Who is almost all?


Name your sources for the claim that Tamahou = Woodaabi.

Similarities and dress and hairstyle exists throughout Africa - it does not follow logically that Egyptian origin is demonstrated wherever similarity exists.

And in fact - It is *not* generally claimed by scholars, that Tamahou are Egyptian in origin, or that Tamahou are somehow Woodaabi.

Tamahou are more often linked to Berber, not Fulani.

You're not making any sense.

Indeed, I would like to know if Wally is claiming that the Fulani are the Tamahou, and Tamahou are Egyptians?

Really?

Since when?

If you took the time to read the sources, complete with direct quotes, authors, and the editor given, you would see the context. You seem not to understand the dark-skinned "Tehenou" (or early Tamahou according to Reynolds), whom are likened to "Red" Fulani, and the later lighter skinned ones, which was the point of contention of the authors I posted on what should be the proper term for these two differently complexioned groups of people. Both agreed that the C-group "Nubians" were the forbearers for the culture. Even today, regardless of skin color, Tuareg and Woodaabi are like cousins and share cultural traits.

Whether feigning blindness or ignorance, your independent, similarly detailed thesis on an origin outside of the NV awaits.
 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
It is the creamy colored TMHHW  - depicted in Seti I's
tomb who are compared to Fulani not the dark THHNW. Those TMHHW
do phenotypically resemble Zenaga iMazighen more than Bororo Fulani.

 -

Points of phenotypical/physical similarity:
* Facial profile - straight (orthognous)
* Chin - tufted goatee beard
* Hair - thick locks
* Nose - thin nostrils, well defined bridge
* Face - gaunt (narrow)
* Body - slim wiry build

We could also examine the clothing of the TMHHW
and the Bororo to unravel superficial resemblances.
Note that Reynolds-Marniche didn't originate the idea
of TMHHW-WoDaabe kinship. She should've closely
compared the two on her own instead of repeating
earlier pronouncements.

In any event Reynolds-Marniche doesn't support an
Egyptian origin of the Fulani. She sees them as
Gaitule descendants and thus of 'Libyan' antecedents.
She point blank labels them black Berbers.
 
Posted by Whatbox (Member # 10819) on :
 
Off Topic but check out the head gear:

 -

Are those feathers or what?

Tamahou?
 
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Yes those are feathers. As to whether the people are Tamahou, I'm not sure but I think they are. Such feather adornments were common to Libyan peoples since early dynastic times, by the way.
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:

It is the creamy colored TMHHW  - depicted in Seti I's
tomb who are compared to Fulani not the dark THHNW. Those TMHHW
do phenotypically resemble Zenaga iMazighen more than Bororo Fulani.

 -

Points of phenotypical/physical similarity:
* Facial profile - straight (orthognous)
* Chin - tufted goatee beard
* Hair - thick locks
* Nose - thin nostrils, well defined bridge
* Face - gaunt (narrow)
* Body - slim wiry build

We could also examine the clothing of the TMHHW
and the Bororo to unravel superficial resemblances.
Note that Reynolds-Marniche didn't originate the idea
of TMHHW-WoDaabe kinship. She should've closely
compared the two on her own instead of repeating
earlier pronouncements.

In any event Reynolds-Marniche doesn't support an
Egyptian origin of the Fulani. She sees them as
Gaitule descendants and thus of 'Libyan' antecedents.
She point blank labels them black Berbers.

We are talking about phenotype vs. culture here. Would it not be possible for these ancient North Africans to share similar phenotype as say Wodaabe Fulani but still be Berber speakers??

By the way, why are these Tamahou 'cream-colored' in the first place unless they are somehow ancestors of todays white Berber like the Rif or Kabyle. Is this not possible??
 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
The fact remains that Saharan rock art distinguishes the
cattle herders by phenotype as well as culture from the
'white' hunters and militants who are feathered. The art
with Fulani cultural traits portray brown skinned folk who
in no way resemble the TMHHW of the pharaohs' tomb
paintings unlike these 'whites' who do.

 -  -

Bororo distinguish themselves from Berbers and do
acknowledge a one time subservient position to them.
Bororo men shy from taking Berber wives and chide
Bororo women who marry Berber men as reverting to
the position in former times as being subservient to
Berbers.

Today variants of Pulaar/Fulfulde is the Fulani
vernacular. Fulani legends say the first Fulbe
ancestors didn't speak Fulfulde. One of the first
Fulani groups of historical mention were the Banu
Warith, a clan of the Godalla taMazight speakers.
Some linguist claim a taMazight substratum is in
Fulfulde that's absent from the Serere and Wolof
Atlantic languages.

Those TMHHW who were creamy colored, because
all of them weren't creamy colored, got the cream
in their coffee from northern Mediterraneans both
before and after the events of the Trojan War and
the 'Sea People' migrations.

Since descriptions of Latin Rome and thereafter
don't recognize the Maurs as white skinned the
white Riffians colour must come from the trade
in white women instituted and well noted after
the rise of Islam. If not, then it may be from
prehistory when the 'Beaker' trade and other
trade was ongoing between the western half of
littoral North Africa, Spain, and Mediterranean
islanders.

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=000444#000034

Very many contemporay littoral North Africans are
partially descended from Spaniards, Italians, and
Greeks. It's these misegenated iMazighen who cry
the most against 'black' Africans and take pains to
remove themselves from any connections to blacks
or to non-'Berber' Africans.
 
Posted by The Gaul (Member # 16198) on :
 
Doubled.
 
Posted by The Gaul (Member # 16198) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
It is the creamy colored TMHHW  - depicted in Seti I's
tomb who are compared to Fulani not the dark THHNW. Those TMHHW
do phenotypically resemble Zenaga iMazighen more than Bororo Fulani.

 -

Points of phenotypical/physical similarity:
* Facial profile - straight (orthognous)
* Chin - tufted goatee beard
* Hair - thick locks
* Nose - thin nostrils, well defined bridge
* Face - gaunt (narrow)
* Body - slim wiry build

We could also examine the clothing of the TMHHW
and the Bororo to unravel superficial resemblances.
Note that Reynolds-Marniche didn't originate the idea
of TMHHW-WoDaabe kinship. She should've closely
compared the two on her own instead of repeating
earlier pronouncements.

In any event Reynolds-Marniche doesn't support an
Egyptian origin of the Fulani. She sees them as
Gaitule descendants and thus of 'Libyan' antecedents.
She point blank labels them black Berbers.

Those that present a Tamahu/Tehenou/Lebu/Woodaabi relationship do so on much more than just phenotype, dress, and hairstyle, though that in itself can't just be dismissed as "superficial" anymore than the rock art paintings at Tassili.

These quotes from Reynolds, pgs. 120 - 121:

quote:
They still practice the burning of the temples of infants Herodotus mentions as common to all Lybians.
quote:
The pastoral Fulani are the only people in West Africa who milk their cattle and though they have recently been touched by modernization, rarely did they raise their cattle for food. (The ancient Lybians did not eat the cow, considering them sacred.) Like many Cushitic and Nilo-Saharan peoples they tend to know each of the members of their herds by name and treat them with great affection and respect.
As a side note, some fulani say they recognize their family names in a great resemblance of those found amongst some Somali.

Back on topic...


Labeling them "black Berbers" in an ancient sense does not sever any ties, nor rules out any suggestion of a Nile Valley origin, since we are not talking about the modern Berber linguistic family of today. The term Berber today can be treated the same as the term "Tamahou" of AE times, since, according to Reynolds , it was used to refer to an original ethny that later became just a geographical and cultural reference to include "creamy colored" Tamahou. "Black Berbers" according to Reynolds includes Fulani, whom are therefore related to ancient Nubians:

Pg. 123
quote:
Just as other nomadic peoples like Nilo-Saharans anciently and more recently Fulani have extended themselves across the Sudan from Senegal to East Africa, it seems ancient Nubian nomads originating east of the Nile ancestral to modern Beja and Afar, had from an early period spread themselves over the North African area between the Atlantic and Red sea, retaining their names. To them may have been the horse chariot and later the camel and veil in North Africa.

As Oric Bates, writer of The Eastern Lybians pointed out, the stone tumulus graves of Nubia of C-group and Pan Grave culture closely resemble the type found in Western Sahara called by the Tuareg regem or argem.

As for the term suggesting them as "Gaitules":

Pg. 120
quote:
The Fulani of Takrur were called Beni Warith or Waritan of the Beni Goddala or Jeddala in the Annales Regnum Mauretanie (Annals of the Mauritian Kings) and the writing of El-Bekri. They were said to have once lived in the Mauretanian Adrar. Goddala is the Arab pronunciation of the earleir Gaituli of the Roman historians. The Gaitules were the most populous of the Lybian tribes of Strabo's time (1st century A.D.). Josephus around the same period claimed that they were the same as the Evalioi of Kush or the people of anceint Avalis (Hevila) - the Zeila of present day Somalia, which might explain why the Fulani today resemble so much the people of that region.
Suggesting a C-group antecedent for these Ancient Lybians/Woodabi/"Black Berbers", whom some say are descendents of A-group, whom it's safe to assume would have originated further south in the Nile Valley.
 
Posted by The Gaul (Member # 16198) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Whatbox:
Off Topic but check out the head gear:

 -

Are those feathers or what?

Tamahou?

You may not be as off topic as you think, as some suggest the "white" tamahou like below simply amalgamated with the culture of the darker indigenous Tamahou/Tenehou that already existed, including style of dress, depending on how one chooses to define these ancient terms.

 -

Tuareg/Woodaabi Ertran Finatawa , in both veiled and probably ancient dress, resembling the paintings posted replete with head-feather, side-locks, and tunics:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GH9o3-skjGc&feature=related (Rasol up front in the dark shades).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NjX1ziHVX8
 
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
 
The Tamahou and Tehenu need not be confused with one another. The former were generally featured as light-toned characters sporting double-feathered gear on their heads; whereas the latter were darker-toned characters, and did not sport a feathered head gear. The former wore a cape-like garment, whereas the latter were more bare in their dressing, entailing distinctive straps crossing one another across the chest area, neck gear or laces, and sheaths covering their frontal ends.

The aforementioned "strapped-gear" may be reminiscent of those occasionally seen on Wodaabe/Bororo dancers, generally white in color; however, this is a far cry from identifying the Tehenu as the Bororo. For one, such garment is by no means relegated to the Bororo; Intore dancers for instance, feature such garment. As a matter of an example, a wall-relief displays the Tehenu without a feathered head gear. The Bororo dancers typically have single-feathered head gears, with the feather right above the forehead...interestingly, reminiscent of the "white" toned figures in the rock art picture above [reposted below]. At any rate, the dress of the "white" toned figures is distinct from that associated with the Bororo...

 -

Hard to make it out with precision due to the fairly low resolution, but some of the characters below, appear to be wearing head-gears, reminiscent of those "conical"-looking hats worn by the Bororo...

 -

The aforementioned Tehenu wall-relief also displays domesticated fauna, like cattle, goats, donkeys/asses and possibly sheep. The cattle depicted here though, are not morphologically those of the established Fulani-variants. In a few words, there is nothing about Tehenu figures that is particularly characteristic of just the contemporary Bororo or Fulas in general.
 
Posted by The Gaul (Member # 16198) on :
 
There are two sides of the Tamahou/Tehenou debate, in which some take the Wayne B. Chandler, Tamahou were always "white/light-skinned and were in Libya from the earliest of times" side of it. While others might take the Reynolds side already discussed.

Though both, at this point, is educated speculation, bear in mind that these comparisons encompass more than just the head gear and style of dress from those millenia ago as was already posted, as we wouldn't expect those in modern times to exactly match those found on temple walls and rock paintings.
 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
The 'Berber' of today can't be traced to the TMHHW.
'Berber' are properly iMazighen and as such are
traceable to the Meshwesh.


quote:
Originally posted by The Gaul:
The term Berber today can be treated the same as the term "Tamahou" of AE times, since, according to Reynolds , it was used to refer to an original ethny that later became just a geographical and cultural reference to include "creamy colored" Tamahou.


 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Reynolds-Marniche nowhere suggests an Egyptian
origin of the Fulani. Of all the various peoples
she connects to Fulani the Egyptians aren't one.

Thus Reynolds-Marniche can't be used to support
the idea of an Egyptian origin of the Fulani.
Only a quote from her saying some Egyptians
were ancestral to Fulani will suffice.

Everything else doesn't merely miss the bullseye,
it's totally off-target.
 
Posted by Whatbox (Member # 10819) on :
 
Maybe the TMHHW are the ancestors of Kel Tamasheq [aka the Tuareg ..] ...

quote:
Originally posted by Supercar/Explorer:
The Bororo dancers typically have single-feathered head gears, with the feather right above the forehead...interestingly, reminiscent of the "white" toned figures in the rock art picture above [reposted below].

Not surprised! However i am interested ... as soon as alTakruri posted that post i was going to respond but didn't have the time. Not that alTakruri claimed the paintings or the Tamahou have connections to Amazighen or ancient Saharan paintings (to the contrary).

I was wondering where that painting was found and when it probably dated to.

I'm quite sure that the demic movements of modern Berbers' ancestors into areas they currently inhabit date to the end of indigenous Dynastic Km.t [nw.t] in the Maghreb and perhaps to the beginnings of indigenous Dynastic Km.t [nwt] in the Sahara.
 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
TMHHW weren't all creamy colored. Some were yalla
and some were light brown. Misegenation with north
Mediterraneans is what made for the 'white' Libyans' colour.

quote:
Originally posted by The Gaul:
There are two sides of the Tamahou/Tehenou debate, in which some take the Wayne B. Chandler, Tamahou were always "white/light-skinned and were in Libya from the earliest of times" side of it. While others might take the Reynolds side already discussed.

Though both, at this point, is educated speculation, bear in mind that these comparisons encompass more than just the head gear and style of dress from those millenia ago as was already posted, as we wouldn't expect those in modern times to exactly match those found on temple walls and rock paintings.


 
Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
 
alTakruri wrote:

--------------------------------
TMHHW weren't all creamy colored. Some were yalla
and some were light brown.

Misegenation with north
Mediterraneans is what made for the 'white' Libyans' colour.
--------------------------------


How do you know?


Why are you so diametrically entangled in eurocentric propaganda?


So you're saying that if a population has any variety at all it is because of miscegenation. How stupid. Most people of any ethnicity today do not mix with other ethnicities so you can bet that was even more so in ancient times. That is just human nature.


Ethnic groups produce offspring by members of their own ethnic group. Even the odd case here and there, the offspring will simply be absorbed into another ethnic group. Your grand fantasy of a mixed child altering the looks of an ethnic group are hiliariously idiotic.


You act like ethnic groups have sex and produce children with other ethnic groups at 50% + rates. In the most gratious case its not even 5%. And again even then the offspring doesn't alter whatever group they produce offspring with. They simply become absorbed within that group.


Iron your pants Al, iron your pants. LOL!
 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
'White' Libyans are an African impossibility. As
shown elsewhere, white skin developed outside the
African continent. Thus any approaching a European
shade of pale have that colour from some people from
somewhere other than Africa.

In North Africa we have the case of ongoing trade
with South Europe since the neolithic as well as
the arrival of Trojan War refugees and 'Sea People'
who arrived with complete families.

Considering that even mulatos of parentage where
one is black skinned and the other white skinned
are mostly closer to white than black in colour
(look at Obama in group photos) and think of the
effect of cream on coffee.

If you'd like to continue a dialog with me rather
than posting pot shots that never get a reply you
must cease polemic and an homina. If you insist on
talking about me instead of talking about what I
write I'll be forced to ignore you.
 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Making a strong case for Fulani being TMHHW only
weakens the case of them being Egyptian in origin.

Why?

Well, Egyptians considered Tjemehu as offspring of
different netjer than the one both they (Egyptians)
and Nehesu are progeny of.

 -

(r.t.RMT:SA:|||) ≠ (tj.MHH.w)
 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Proponents of The Egyptian Origin of the Fulani,
please succinctly propose an approximate date
and local place of origin for your Fulani in
Egypt.
 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Looks like it turned invisible above so here again
is the unmarred TMHHy from Seti I's tomb both the
Lepsius crew painting and a photo by Kent Weeks
of the Theban Mapping Project

 -  -

The tomb wall has deteriated even more since Lepsius' day.
 
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ The Tamahu clothing does seem reminiscent of ancient Euro-Mediterranean clothing such as ancient Sicilians and Iberians. Though the feathers and tatoos seem African.
 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
You mean the cloak thrown over the shoulder and
clasped in a knot to hold it in place? What about
the penistache? I know it's pretty far flung (seen
Papuans using it).

Back to the cloaks on either side of the Mediterranean.
What about their motifs? Are they fabric or leather?
Embroidered? Fringed? Etc.?
 
Posted by Red,White, and Blue + Christian (Member # 10893) on :
 
Al-Takruri,

I usually don't have major disagreements with you. I usually just copy your postings for reference. However and ironically, I do disagree a Fullah origins. They were in Egypt at least some of them.

Can a people have more than one source of origin?

Yes, of course as a person has two parents.

Mexicans are Spanish and Native.

The Fullah are from West Africa maternally, yet have Middle Eastern, European and even some Aryan paternal sources. Check out my latest post on the other forum.
 
Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
 
Red,White, and Blue + Christian wrote:
------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------


LOL! A desperate attempt by a loon who sources D-----s as evidence.

Go away boy. Intelligent people have no time the less intelligent sub-lower ranks you occupy.
 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Two unrelated comments.

What do you make of the Fulani creation mythos vis-a-vis Egypt's?

Genetics doesn't agree with your paternal ancestry sentiments.
Fulani fathers are Africans of the type generally called sub-Saharan.

quote:
Originally posted by Red,White, and Blue + Christian:
... I do disagree a Fullah origins. They were in Egypt at least some of them.


The Fullah are from West Africa maternally, yet have
Middle Eastern,
European and even some
Aryan
paternal sources.


 
Posted by Red,White, and Blue + Christian (Member # 10893) on :
 
As I have said a million times, EVERYTHING IS NOT IN ENGLISH!!! The Francophones did not translate everything and not even the most important things.

Dr. A.M. Lam's 400+ page masterpiece has the Fulbe rising out of the Nile valley, Egypt and the area where the Masai live coming together and arching around North Africa ending up in Senegal.

The was scepter of Egypt is found among the Fulbe along with the Zebu. And there are a host of other things. This book needs to be translated into English, especially Part 2!!!

 -

The Creation myths of the Fulbe with their creator god Gueno have not also been fully translated into English. They often mix Mande elements. It's so Cabalistic!

 -

The ancient African symbol above is very similar to a six pointed star I saw in a book on Ancient Egypt. It was on the horns of the goddess Hetheru in an early early painting.

Everything hasn't been translated into English!!!

Don't ask me where I got the following:

Phylogénétique [modifier]
Dans le cadre de l'opération de génétique mondiale des populations, en vu du Projet de séquençage du génome humain, initialisée en 1995 par Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza, celle-ci semble marquer une origine à la fois de l'Inde ( Hindou kouch ) et de l'Iran ( Indo-iraniens appelé aussi Indo-aryens ) arya pour les Peuls. Il a été relevé au sujet d'un prélèvement effectué sur un groupe fula du Burkina Faso les conclusions suivantes :

« L'étude des séries d'allèles, de l'haplogroupe P (M45) (haplogroupe asiatique) montre une combinaison génétique particulière pour ce groupe présentant une mutation allélique neutre : M46 (adaptation au paludisme) - Rhésus (Rh) similaire à celui de l'ensemble des Africains et particularités immunologiques proches de celles des Bantous groupe ethnique subsaharien établis du Soudan à l'Atlantique - Une observation approfondie de l'ADNmt pour les femmes et du chromosome Y (Y-ADN) pour les hommes, distingue la présence des marqueurs M 9 haplogroupe k (marqueur eurasiatique présent à 97 % en Iran) ; M 89 haplogroupe F (marqueur du Moyen-Orient présent à 90% chez les populations d'Asie centrale) présent à (18 %) chez les Peuls ( il est à 19 % chez les Arabes et 21 % chez les Afghans ) ; M 20 haplogroupe L (marqueur indien présent à 50 % en Inde du Sud)[56] »


Yes, they are part Aryan as this Burkina Faso report says.

Hasta luego amigo.
 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
No worry, it's from http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peuls

As was posted a month ago in one of these Peuhl
threads, Aryan (Indian) origin theory for Fulani is
based on their cattle -- a type of zebu -- but here
we have an addition of nrY K-89 (being mistaken
as an Aryan marker); an addition of a superficial
affinity with Hinduism.

Kal tob hhaber.

quote:
Originally posted by Red,White, and Blue + Christian:


Don't ask me where I got the following:



 
Posted by Red,White, and Blue + Christian (Member # 10893) on :
 
al_Takruri,

It is time for me to really really go. I learned many things from the Internet and chatting is nice. But, now I must take a different approach.


http://tefereth2.tripod.com/AfrGenStruct.pdf

BTW, there were 2 African American slaves of Fullah descent who said their people came from the Hyksos.


http://www.metmuseum.org/Works_of_Art/collection_database/highlights.aspx?page=1&sort=5&sortdir=&keyword=&fp=1&dd1=10&dd2=31&vw=1

http://www.brooklynmuseum.org/exhibitions/ancient_egyptian_magic/

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080912182503AATvu1z


Zai Jian peng you
 
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
 
The Zebu cattle only appeared in western Africa at ca. 1800 BP. Furthermore, the Fulani cattle is NOT Zebu, but a west African hybridized breed produced from pre-existing in loco west African cattle and Zebu brought in via eastern Africa. Thirdly, hybridized breeds involving Zebu is not limited to the Fulani breeds:

The West African Zebu cattle consist of two main groups: the Gudali group (Adamawa, Sokoto) and the Fulani group.

The Fulani have been classified further into two groups: the lyre-horned subgroup consisting of Senegalese Fulani (or the Gobra), the Sudanese Fulani, and the White Fulani (or Bunaji); and long-horned subgroup represented by the Red Fulani (or Rahaji). Diali (or Djeli) is a strain of Fulani found on the flood plains of Niger river in Niger and south-west Nigeria (Rege 1999; Rege and Tawah, 1999).
- cdad-is.org

Gist: The only way for the Fulani cattle to be found anywhere other than western Africa, is if they were ultimately imported from western Africa. Therefore Fulani cattle cannot be used to argue for a non-African or non-western African origin!
 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
The following breeds ARE Zebu (Bos Indicus) per E. M. Ibeagha-Awemu.


Bos indicus (zebu) breeds in Cameroon
* Red Bororo
* White Fulani
* Banyo Gudali
* Ngaoundere Gudali

Bos indicus (zebu) breeds in Nigeria
* Red Bororo
* White Fulani
* Sokoto Gudali
* Adamawa Gudali
* Wadara

quote:

The results of several investigations have also indicated
that African zebu cattle are an admixture of Bos indicus
and Bos taurus. The levels of Asian zebu genes in the
African breeds are different and need to be determined for
each breed. Some studies have estimated zebu admixture
levels at about 50.0% to 83.0% in African zebus ...

. . . .

Indian zebu genetic proportions in the African zebus ranged from
58.1% (Ngaoundere Gudali) to 74.0% (Nigerian Red Bororo).

 -

. . . .

The unrooted tree of phylogeny shows a clear separation
between the African zebus and taurine breeds (Fig. 2).
Eight of the zebu breeds are to be found in a tight cluster
at one end and two taurine breeds ... at the other end.

 -

. . . .

It is clear from this study that Bos taurus (European and
African) and Bos indicus cattle possess very distinct allelic
distributions and that zebu breeds in Cameroon and Nigeria
have a mixture of both African/European Bos taurus and
Indian zebu alleles, ...

... The very close relationship for the zebu breeds in Cameroon
and Nigeria was surprising. The breeds are quite distinct
phenotypically and one would have expected this to be reflected
in the dendrogram and PC of relationships. Even though it is
considered that the Gudalis are among the true shorthorn zebus
of West Africa, an examination of the mY1 admixed coefficients
gave this credit rather to the Nigerian Red Bororo. ...

. . . .

It is concluded from this study that cattle breeds in Cameroon
and Nigeria are a unique part of the global animal genetic resource.

... The nine zebu breeds in Cameroon and Nigeria are closely
related and are stabilized hybrids of Indian Bos indicus and
African/European Bos taurus. They are also highly diverged
from their counterpart taurines. High genetic divergence
between the Bos species in Africa, Europe and India is
supportive evidence that they could have been domesticated
independently.



Genetic diversity, introgression and relationships
among West/Central African cattle breeds

Genet. Sel. Evol. 36 (2004) 673–690



 
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
But what do these cattle breeds have to do with actual human populations?? Also, is someone suggesting that these Zebu came from Egypt and not the Horn??
 
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
 
The Zebu cattle only appeared in western Africa at ca. 1800 BP. Furthermore, the Fulani cattle is NOT Zebu, but a west African hybridized breed produced from pre-existing in loco west African cattle and Zebu brought in via eastern Africa!

I challenge ANYONE to demonstrate to the CONTRARY!
 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
As in the genetic study by E.M. Ibeagha-Awemu et
al of the Institute of Animal Breeding and Genetics,
Justus-Liebig University, Giessen, Germany posted
above, all the literature classes Fulani cattle as
Zebu (Bos indicus).

Careful perusal of Table II, posted previously,
shows that even Indian Zebu have taurine mix.
The table labels nine breeds of African Zebu.

The high percentage of the indicus factor
suggests that present day Fulani cattle are
primarily indicines with taurine admixture.

The report concluded
quote:

... The nine zebu breeds in Cameroon and Nigeria are closely
related and are stabilized hybrids of Indian Bos indicus and
African/European Bos taurus.
They are also highly diverged
from their counterpart taurines. High genetic divergence
between the Bos species in Africa, Europe and India is
supportive evidence that they could have been domesticated
independently.




Until a peer-reviewed report to the contrary is
presented then the above remains the fact in the
face of any and all internet shouting (all caps).

As for the Fulani's own opinion on the matter,
their tradition is that their cattle emerged
from the sea directly to them. This implies a
foreign import status for them. Per the legend
before that event they were cattleless. What
can we extract from the legend that doesn't
impact scientific study?

In my eyes it's readily apparent that proto
Fulani of the Green Sahara tended taurines.
The legend makes for historic Fulani taking
on an imported cattle. The reported admixture
proportions inform my opinion that:
* indicines were the cattle gift of a legendary ancestor,
* indicines were the main stock onto which local taurines were grafted.

The immediate origin of the indicines is not known to me.

I invite statements of other opinons.
 
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:

As in the genetic study by E.M. Ibeagha-Awemu et
al of the Institute of Animal Breeding and Genetics,
Justus-Liebig University, Giessen, Germany posted
above, all the literature classes Fulani cattle as
Zebu (Bos indicus).

That labeling would be incorrect, for even your OWN sources acknowledge that the Fulani breed is IN FACT not Bos Indicus, but a hybrid product of Bos Indicus with the local west African breeds of Bos Taurus. If it is a hybrid between these two cattle sub-species, how can it be suddenly become Bos Indicus, and disavowing its African lineage?

YOUR source...


...The nine zebu breeds in Cameroon and Nigeria are closely
related and are **stabilized hybrids** of Indian Bos indicus and
African/European Bos taurus. They are also highly diverged
from their counterpart taurines. High **genetic divergence**
between the Bos species in Africa, Europe and India
is
supportive evidence that they could have been domesticated
independently.


'Nuff said!
 
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
The Zebu cattle only appeared in western Africa at ca. 1800 BP. Furthermore, the Fulani cattle is NOT Zebu, but a west African hybridized breed produced from pre-existing in loco west African cattle and Zebu brought in via eastern Africa!

I challenge ANYONE to demonstrate to the CONTRARY!

 -


You are wrong the Zebu has been in Africa since 1800 BC, not BP.

[img] http://www.boran.co.za/Foto%27s/calf.jpg [/img]
 -
Above is a Boran cattle of the Fulani.

Evidence of this comes from Egypt dating to the 12th Dynasty. It is during this Dynasty that Homburger claimedthat the Fulani were in Egypt.

Here is a depiction of humped cattle from Kerma.

 -


There are some rock art drawings that appear to be humped
 -

.
 
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
The Zebu probably originated in Africa and was taken to India by the Dravidian speaking people. This is supported by the name for cattle shared by Dravidian and African speakers.


The Dravidians originated in Africa. The archaeological evidence make it clear that they were related to the C-Group people according to B B Lal.
 -
Note the humped cattle at bottom of picture

In the western Saharan sites such as Erg In-Sakane region, and the Taoudenni basin of northern Mali, attest to cattle husbandry between 6000 and 5000 B.P. (McIntosh & McIntosh, 1979,1981,1986,1988). Cattle pastoral people began to settle Dar Tichitt and Karkarchinkat between 5000 and 3500 B.P. (Holl, 1989).

The term for cattle, cow in the various African and Dravidian languages show much correspondence. Below we will compare the term for cow from various African languages:

CATTLE/ COW

Egyptian ng, nag

Wolof nag

Fulani nag

Hausa nagge

Angas ning

Ankwe ning

Susu ninge

Nuer yang

Baguirmi m-ang, mang

Gbea m-angu, mangu

Sar(a) m-ang, mang

Serere nak

Mande nika

Burma nak

Tamil n_ku

Malayalam n_ku

Tulu n_ku

Jarawa i-nak

Kagoro nyak

Kaje nyak

Burak nyek

Kagoma nyak

Bobo nyanga

Kono-Vai nige

So.W. Mande ninke

Sembla nigi

Congo-Benue *i-nak

Duala nyaka

Mpongwe nyare

Fang nyar

Kwa nare

Azer(Azayr) na

Soninke na

Gourmantche nua, nue

Tamil _, _n

Malayalam _, _n

Konda _.v

Kannda _, _vu

Telugu _vu

Senufo nu

Ewe nyi

Niellim nya

Boua (Bwa) nya

Tarok ina

Iregwe nya

Dadiya nee

Amo na

Baya nday

Bobofing nya-nga

Gera ndiya

Koro indak

Malinke gu_ga, ko_go ‘zebu’

Songhay dyu_go

Swahili Ki-go_go

Kannada g_nde

Kolami k_nda, kanda

Gadaba k_nde

Gondi k_nda

The correspondence between Dravidian and African terms for cattle support the archaeological evidence for the early domestication of cattle in the Proto-Sahara. This view is supported by the similarity in the terms for cow/cattle by speakers of the Dravidian, Mande, Niger-Congo, Chadic, and Afro Asiatic Supersets.

.
 
Posted by The Gaul (Member # 16198) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:

As in the genetic study by E.M. Ibeagha-Awemu et
al of the Institute of Animal Breeding and Genetics,
Justus-Liebig University, Giessen, Germany posted
above, all the literature classes Fulani cattle as
Zebu (Bos indicus).

That labeling would be incorrect, for even your OWN sources acknowledge that the Fulani breed is IN FACT not Bos Indicus, but a hybrid product of Bos Indicus with the local west African breeds of Bos Taurus. If it is a hybrid between these two cattle sub-species, how can it be suddenly become Bos Indicus, and disavowing its African lineage?

YOUR source...


...The nine zebu breeds in Cameroon and Nigeria are closely
related and are **stabilized hybrids** of Indian Bos indicus and
African/European Bos taurus. They are also highly diverged
from their counterpart taurines. High **genetic divergence**
between the Bos species in Africa, Europe and India
is
supportive evidence that they could have been domesticated
independently.


'Nuff said!

Do you suggest that the "pre-existing" cattle in West Africa were independemtly domesticated there? If so, when and exactly where? If not, where do you suppose these domesticated cattle came from and who brought them there and when?


Meanwhile...the origin of African pastoral societies, including Fulani, can be traced to either the western desert of Egypt (Bir Kisieba-Nabta Playa), the adjacent Nile Valley (1st and 2nd cataracts), or some point in between near the time of 9,000 BP as Africa's domestication of cattle is first seen here. This is 500 to 1,000 years before this is seen in "SW Asia". These areas also left evidence of the still existing cultural traits as the deifying cattle as god figures, and the use of cattle as a renewable resource (which is not so much seen in the southern pastoral communities), and the use of a communal area for ceremonies which undoubtedly praised cattle, in which cattle tumulus are found at it's earliest.

These same pastoral groups are what eventually set the wheels in motion for Dynastic Egypt and had heavy influence in the Old Kingdom, as is seen in such gods and goddesses such as Hathor.

quote:
Following Gautier (1980, 1984)...these early Holocene groups were cattle pastorolists who brought their herds into the desert for grazing after summer rains, coming into the desert from some yet unidentified area where wild cattle were present and where the initial steps toward domestication first occured (Wendorf et al. 1984: 420 - 422; Wendorf and Schild 1994). This may have been the Nile Valley, between the First and Second cataracts, because wild cattle had been present in that area (and a major prey animal since the middle Paleolithic; Gautier 1968), as were people with lithic industries closely similar to those in the early Holocene sites in the western desert.
Note that the "desert" here is referring to the Kisieba - Nabta area.

http://wysinger.homestead.com/nabtaplaya.pdf
 
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Marc Washington:
.
.
 -
http://www.beforebc.de/400_neareast/08-10-00-16.html

.
.


 
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
 -


The Kushites brought humped cattle to Egypt as gifts. Check out the humped cattle in the bottom panel.

 -

Sudanese cattle

 -

.
 
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

You are wrong the Zebu has been in Africa since 1800 BC, not BP.


Really? My source is this:
http://dagris.ilri.cgiar.org/display.asp?ID=77

What is your's?
 
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
Here is a depiction of humped cattle from Kerma .

 -


Carlos Magnavita1, Ancient Humped Cattle in Africa: A View from the Chad Basin ,African Archaeological Review, 2006


(1) J.W. Goethe-Universität Frankfurt, Institut für archäologische Wissenschaften, Archäologie und Archäobotanik Afrikas, Grüneburgplatz 1, 60323 Frankfurt/M, Germany

Published online: 29 November 2006

Abstract The origins of ancient and modern African cattle are still a matter of much debate among researchers. Part of the dispute involves the question of the appearance in Africa, from the second millennium BC onwards, of cattle carrying a distinguishing morphological feature present in most of the modern sub-Saharan breeds: The hump. This paper addresses the issue of the origins of the African humped cattle. After reviewing the current hypothesis on their origins, the status and significance of old and new archaeological and osteological evidence from the Chad Basin are presented and critically discussed. Mainly based on the cultural context of the archaeological figurative evidence available in the remaining continent, a case for the foreign ancestry of the ancient African humped cattle is made, and a perspective for future research in the topic is provided.

Ancient Humped Cattle in Africa: A View from the Chad Basin African Archaeological Review, 2006
 
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
Fulani Boran Cattle
 -

quote:



The earliest evidence for humped cattle on the continent, provided by Egyptian tomb paintings of the XIIth Dynasty, do not appear until the second millennium BC, which suggests that the Egyptian civilization may have played a role in the introduction of zebu into the continent. Today, most modern breeds have an appreciable zebu ancestry, which attests to a major secondary introduction.





Origin Boran:Fulani Cattle
 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Nope, my source consistently labels the Fulani
cattle as Bos indicus as do all others who use
the scientific name when listing cattle.

Again nearly all Bos, whether indicus or taurus, are
hybrid. The predominance of genetic factors leads to
classifying cattle as either indicus or taurus.

Hybrid status doesn't exclude a cattle from either category.

I await production of any peer reviewed report
which labels Fulani other than African Zebu
(Bos indicus). Until then I have nothing further
to say as I see no need to keep repeating what
one can scroll above to see.

My source
The nine zebu breeds in Cameroon and Nigeria

Now if one refuses to read the word zebu in that
quote then something other is at stake in this
exchange than what academia and professionals
have to say. And I'll have no part in whatever
that other is.

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:

As in the genetic study by E.M. Ibeagha-Awemu et
al of the Institute of Animal Breeding and Genetics,
Justus-Liebig University, Giessen, Germany posted
above, all the literature classes Fulani cattle as
Zebu (Bos indicus).

That labeling would be incorrect, for even your OWN sources acknowledge that the Fulani breed is IN FACT not Bos Indicus, but a hybrid product of Bos Indicus with the local west African breeds of Bos Taurus. If it is a hybrid between these two cattle sub-species, how can it be suddenly become Bos Indicus, and disavowing its African lineage?

YOUR source...


...The nine zebu breeds in Cameroon and Nigeria are closely
related and are **stabilized hybrids** of Indian Bos indicus and
African/European Bos taurus. They are also highly diverged
from their counterpart taurines. High **genetic divergence**
between the Bos species in Africa, Europe and India
is
supportive evidence that they could have been domesticated
independently.


'Nuff said!


 
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:

Nope, my source consistently labels the Fulani
cattle as Bos indicus as do all others who use
the scientific name when listing cattle.

And I *consistently* say your sources are wrong in doing so. If you can answer this *very basic* question, then perhaps, you might very well be onto something, by rendering the Fulani "Zebu":

If the Fulani cattle is a hybrid product of the Asian Bos Indicus AND the African Bos Taurus, then why do you render it simply a Zebu or Bos Indicus; does the cattle's African heritage not matter? If yes, why? If no, then why do you insist that the Fulani cattle is simply Bos Indicus?

Your answer to this will determine if you actually use your wit to analyze published material, or whether you simply parrot whatever it is that you read, without secondary thinking!
 
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
 
To Clyde,

For all your lengthy spam-fillers, here's a question to stump you with:

Produce one published genetic material that genetically places the genesis or origin of the Fulani cattle in eastern Africa rather than western Africa.
 
Posted by The Gaul (Member # 16198) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
To Clyde,

For all your lengthy spam-fillers, here's a question to stump you with:

Produce one published genetic material that genetically places the genesis or origin of the Fulani cattle in eastern Africa rather than western Africa.

The African "Bos Taurus" originated in Northeast Africa near Nubia (pdf already provided). "Bos Indicus" is thought to have originated in the Indus Valley, and introduced through the Horn of Africa via trade and further introduced towards West Africa. The African "Bos Taurus" was introduced to West Africa by Nomadic Pastoralists (Fulani) who also originated near or in the Nile Valley near "Nubia", as already shown.

According to what Al-Takruri posted, they are labeled "Indicus" because their admixture seems to be half to three-quarters "Indicus".

Are we to arbitrarily indicate that the time and place origin of Fulani coincides with the time and place at which current "Fulani" cattle were hybridized from breeds of the above? If Fulani were to begin hybridizing Holsteins with their current breed in 2010, are we then to restart the clock of Fulani origin to next year?
 
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:

Your answer to this will determine if you actually use your wit to analyze published material, or whether you simply parrot whatever it is that you read, without secondary thinking!

Speaking of which, a careful reading of al Takruri's source AGAIN, two things to note...

The nine zebu breeds in Cameroon and Nigeria are closely...



And last but not least, as a sidenote:


^...which tells any clear-headed thinking person right there, that African cattle heritage CANNOT be dismissed out of hand!
 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Department of Animal Sciences, Oklahoma State University data: http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/cattle/

Fulani Sudanese
 -
Photo provided by Larry W. Harms

Place of Origin Mali, inland delta of Niger River
Uses Zebu
Relationship to other breeds Adamawa (Cameroon), Diali (Niger), Fellata (Chad), Gobra (Senegal), Red Bororo, White Fulani (Nigeria)
Characteristics Not available
Breed Societies French Peul
Synonyms Hausa Filani, Fulani or Fulawa. Singular Fula or Fulah.
Proscribed Names Kanouri (Chad) Fellata or Filata


Red Fulani or Mbororo
 -
Photo provided by Larry W. Harms

Place of Origin East Niger, NorthNigeria, West Chad, and North Cameroon
Uses Meat
Relationship to other breeds West African (long lyrehorned) Zebu type
Characteristics Mahagony
Breed Societies Hausa Abori, Rahadji or Rahaji, Fulani Bodadi (Wodabe tribe)
Synonyms Brahaza, Djafoun (Cameroon), Fellata (Chad and Ethiopia), Fogha, Gabassaé, Gadéhé, Hanagamba, Kréda (Chad), Mbororo, Rahaza, Red Fulani, Red Longhorn
Proscribed Names not Boro, Borroro


Reference: I.L.Mason. (1996). A world dictionary of livestock breeds, types and varieties. CAB INTERNATIONAL
 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
In the above sources there is no dispute as to the African
origin of African Zebu. That's why they call them African
Zebu in distinction to Indian Zebu. The label is based
on the indicators that make for classifying cattle as
either indicus or taurus.

From the start I've pointed to the hybrid nature of
African Zebu and have also posted peer reviewd material
showing the hybrid nature of Bos taurus whether African
or European and the hybrid nature of Bos indica. Admixture
does not make Bos indicus less than Bos indicus. Nor
does admixture make Bos taurus less than Bos taurus.
The predominance of the mix makes Bos fall into categories
of indicine or taurine.

After asking a few times I await peer reviewed reports
explicitly stating that the breeds in the table produced
in an earlier post are not Bos indicus. Lacking said
report disclaimers to the scientific labeling of Fulani
cattle as Bos indicus remain a privately held unsupported
opinion of a layman unfamiliar with what those near and
dear to the subject have scientifically declared through
their genetic analyses. I can only suggest writing the
cited sources and informing them that they don't know
what they're talking about after they already plainly
state that African Bos indicus are hybrid indicines not
hybrid taurines nor plain hybrids being neither indicine
nor taurine. Please share their responses.

NOTE: Diasporan African humans are hybrids yet they are
classed as blacks but not as neither black, white, red, brown
nor yellow.
 
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
To Clyde,

For all your lengthy spam-fillers, here's a question to stump you with:

Produce one published genetic material that genetically places the genesis or origin of the Fulani cattle in eastern Africa rather than western Africa.

I never said they originated in East Africa. I believe they originated in the Sahara.

.
 
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:

In the above sources there is no dispute as to the African
origin of African Zebu. That's why they call them African
Zebu in distinction to Indian Zebu.

..but there is something definitely in dispute about this claim, from you...

As in the genetic study by E.M. Ibeagha-Awemu et al of the Institute of Animal Breeding and Genetics, Justus-Liebig University, Giessen, Germany posted above, all the literature classes Fulani cattle as Zebu (Bos indicus). - al Takruri

The Fulani is not Bos Indicus and cannot be for reasons I've already related, and acknowledged by your OWN source.


quote:


The label is based
on the indicators that make for classifying cattle as
either indicus or taurus.

I've asked you this going three times now, without an answer. What justifies calling the Fulani cattle a Bos Indicus, when it is a "hybrid" product of Bos Indicus AND Bos Taurus; what?...not to mention, as your own source acknowledges, that these breeds are highly divergent from "counterpart taurines"?


quote:


From the start I've pointed to the hybrid nature of
African Zebu

So have I, and?


quote:
and have also posted peer reviewd material
showing the hybrid nature of Bos taurus whether African
or European and the hybrid nature of Bos indica.

This is incorrect. Bos Taurus and Bos Indicus are considered highly divergent sub-species of a wild bovine predecessor. This means that Bos Taurus is considered an original sub-species and phylogenetic entity on its own, distinct from Bos Indicus.

Hanotte et al. used allele frequencies from 50 populations of modern cattle across the African continent to examine genetic variation. Their results reveal three ancient genetic signatures and each signature’s center of origin or region of entry. The native African taurine breed was independently domesticated in northeastern Africa, perhaps the eastern Sahara, and later migrated with pastoralist or crop-livestock farmers west and south. Asian zebu cattle were introduced along the east coast of Africa and in Madagascar and were most likely transported along a marine route from the Indian subcontinent. Finally, Near Eastern and European taurine cattle were primarily introduced along the shores of North Africa during the colonial period. These findings provide a genetic record of African cattle origins and migrations that have far-reaching implications for human migrations and the adaptive strategies used by African populations. They also require us to reexamine the models of domestication more broadly. - M. A. Kennedy

Consistent with this, from another source...

For the greater Mediterranean area, these analyses have shown that the mitochondrial control region haplotypes for modern cattle (i.e., Bos taurus) belong to one of 4 sequence clusters or haplogroups (Fig. 1). Most (94%) modern cattle populations from Northern Africa carry haplogroup T1, which is rarely found outside of Africa (6% in the Near East and absent elsewhere). In contrast, modern populations from mainland Europe carry 2 very similar haplogroups, T and T3 (94%), which decrease in the Middle East (65%-74%) and almost completely disappearing Africa (6%). Haplogroup T2 makes up the remainder of this mtDNA diversity and is present at 6% in Europe and 21%-27% in the Near East, but is absent from Africa. These haplogroup distributions have been interpreted as indicating a Near East origin for European B. taurus and the independent domestication of cattle in Africa (Bradley et al. 1996, Troy et al. 2001, Hanotte et al. 2002). - - Ascunce et al. 2007, An Unusual Pattern of Ancient Mitochondrial DNA Haplogroups in Northern African Cattle

From your own source...

High **genetic divergence** between the Bos species in Africa, Europe and India is supportive evidence that they could have been domesticated independently.

These reports are at odds with your idea of the African Bos Taurus being a "hybrid" product.


quote:

Admixture
does not make Bos indicus less than Bos indicus. Nor
does admixture make Bos taurus less than Bos taurus.

Nonsense. The Fulani breeds are highly divergent, as per your very own source, from their "counterpart taurines"...

The nine zebu breeds in Cameroon and Nigeria are closely related and are stabilized hybrids of Indian Bos indicus and African/European Bos taurus. They are also highly diverged from their counterpart taurines.

What does this mean? Could it possibly mean that the Fulani cannot be considered simply Bos Indicus or Bos Taurus?


quote:

After asking a few times I await peer reviewed reports
explicitly stating that the breeds in the table produced
in an earlier post are not Bos indicus.

Why await any other peer reviewed reports, when your very OWN source makes clear, precisely just that? Or do you not consider your source "peer reviewed"?

quote:

Lacking said report disclaimers to the scientific labeling of Fulani cattle as Bos indicus remain a privately held unsupported opinion of a layman unfamiliar

Hogwash. This is more a function of not being able to understand your own sources than a function of "privately held unsupported opinion"

quote:

NOTE: Diasporan African humans are hybrids yet they areclassed as blacks but not as neither black, white, red, brown nor yellow.

Funny. You are passing off human socio-political constructs -- which are unscientific ones at that -- as equivalent to two highly divergent sub-species of the original wild Taurine? Are human beings several different sub-species or a single one? LOL. Your call!
 
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

I never said they originated in East Africa. I believe they originated in the Sahara.

Well, almost all the genetic sources I have come across make no qualms about specifying where the Fulani cattle originate: Western Africa! Can you specify where else you presume they originated "in the Sahara", if not western Africa?
 
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

I never said they originated in East Africa. I believe they originated in the Sahara.

Well, almost all the genetic sources I have come across make no qualms about specifying where the Fulani cattle originate: Western Africa! Can you specify where else you presume they originated "in the Sahara", if not western Africa?
They originated in the same location where the Fulani originated which was the Sahara not West Africa.


The Kushites brought humped cattle to Egypt as gifts. Check out the humped cattle in the bottom panel.

 -

Fulani cattle look similar to the Kushite gift.

 -
Photo provided by Larry W. Harms


.
 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Once, twice, more than three times labeled zebu.


Originally posted by alTakruri 23 July, 2009 01:46 PM :

The following breeds ARE Zebu (Bos Indicus) per E. M. Ibeagha-Awemu.


Bos indicus (zebu) breeds in Cameroon
* Red Bororo
* White Fulani
* Banyo Gudali
* Ngaoundere Gudali

Bos indicus (zebu) breeds in Nigeria
* Red Bororo
* White Fulani
* Sokoto Gudali
* Adamawa Gudali
* Wadara

quote:

The results of several investigations have also indicated
that African zebu cattle are an admixture of Bos indicus
and Bos taurus. The levels of Asian zebu genes in the
African breeds are different and need to be determined for
each breed. Some studies have estimated zebu admixture
levels at about 50.0% to 83.0% in African zebus ...

. . . .

Indian zebu genetic proportions in the African zebus ranged from
58.1% (Ngaoundere Gudali) to 74.0% (Nigerian Red Bororo).

 -

. . . .

The unrooted tree of phylogeny shows a clear separation
between the African zebus and taurine breeds (Fig. 2).
Eight of the zebu breeds are to be found in a tight cluster
at one end and two taurine breeds ... at the other end.

 -

. . . .

It is clear from this study that Bos taurus (European and
African) and Bos indicus cattle possess very distinct allelic
distributions and that zebu breeds in Cameroon and Nigeria
have a mixture of both African/European Bos taurus and
Indian zebu alleles, ...

... The very close relationship for the zebu breeds in Cameroon
and Nigeria was surprising. The breeds are quite distinct
phenotypically and one would have expected this to be reflected
in the dendrogram and PC of relationships. Even though it is
considered that the Gudalis are among the true shorthorn zebus
of West Africa, an examination of the mY1 admixed coefficients
gave this credit rather to the Nigerian Red Bororo. ...

. . . .

It is concluded from this study that cattle breeds in Cameroon
and Nigeria are a unique part of the global animal genetic resource.

... The nine zebu breeds in Cameroon and Nigeria are closely
related and are stabilized hybrids of Indian Bos indicus and
African/European Bos taurus. They are also highly diverged
from their counterpart taurines. High genetic divergence
between the Bos species in Africa, Europe and India is
supportive evidence that they could have been domesticated
independently.



Genetic diversity, introgression and relationships
among West/Central African cattle breeds

Genet. Sel. Evol. 36 (2004) 673–690



 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Here's where your source notes the Fulani are zebu.


quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:


The West African
Zebu cattle consist of two main groups: the Gudali group (Adamawa, Sokoto) and the Fulani group.

The Fulani have been classified further into two groups: the lyre-horned subgroup consisting of Senegalese Fulani (or the Gobra), the Sudanese Fulani, and the White Fulani (or Bunaji); and long-horned subgroup represented by the Red Fulani (or Rahaji). Diali (or Djeli) is a strain of Fulani found on the flood plains of Niger river in Niger and south-west Nigeria (Rege 1999; Rege and Tawah, 1999).
- cdad-is.org

So there you have your source listing four Fulani breeds as zebu.

WEST AFRICAN ZEBU
code:
     A. Gudali
1. Adamawa
2. Sokoto


B. Fulani
1. lyre-horned
a. Senegalese Fulani (or Gobra)
b. Sudanese Fulani
c. White Fulani(or Bunaji)

2. long-horned
a. Red Fulani (Rahaji)


 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
One need only examine this table to see the hybrid
nature of the studied African taurines.

 -

Namchi are ~30% Indian zebu
Muturu are 'pure' taurine
N'Dama are ~8% Indian zebu

If a breed is not 'pure' then it is 'hybrid.'
Namchi and N'Dama are hybrid. The European
taurines have less indicus in them (< ~4%) than
do the Namchi and N'Dama.

This table also shows that the Ongole breed of
Indian zebu is between 2% and 20% of African
taurine admixture.

As per the labels used and the admixture proportions
given, we see that despite admixture Bos indicus stays
Bos indicus and Bos taurus remains Bos taurus.

The issue here is not with the geographic origin
of Fulani but their classification as genetically
and phenotypically indicus. A look into cattle
classification is in order to ascertain the set
of specifications that make a breed indicus or
taurus in our topic.

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:

These reports are at odds with your idea of the African Bos Taurus being a "hybrid" product.



 
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:

Here's where your source notes the Fulani are zebu.


quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:


The West African [/qb]Zebu cattle consist of two main groups: the Gudali group (Adamawa, Sokoto) and the Fulani group.

The Fulani have been classified further into two groups: the lyre-horned subgroup consisting of Senegalese Fulani (or the Gobra), the Sudanese Fulani, and the White Fulani (or Bunaji); and long-horned subgroup represented by the Red Fulani (or Rahaji). Diali (or Djeli) is a strain of Fulani found on the flood plains of Niger river in Niger and south-west Nigeria (Rege 1999; Rege and Tawah, 1999).
- cdad-is.org

So there you have your source listing four Fulani breeds as zebu.

WEST AFRICAN ZEBU
code:
     A. Gudali
1. Adamawa
2. Sokoto


B. Fulani
1. lyre-horned
a. Senegalese Fulani (or Gobra)
b. Sudanese Fulani
c. White Fulani(or Bunaji)

2. long-horned
a. Red Fulani (Rahaji)


Never said "my source" was correct in naming the Fulani a Zebu, did I?

However, I did cite my source, precisely because it maintains that the Fulani cattle is of western African origin. That's the reason I cited my source, but better luck next time. [Wink]


quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:

One need only examine this table to see the hybrid
nature of the studied African taurines.

Your table does not establish that the African Bos Taurine is a hybrid breed. That is the conclusion "you" erroneously gleaned from your sources table, on your own. You are putting words in your source's mouth, to reach a strange conclusion about the African Bos Taurus that NO source supports.
 
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

They originated in the same location where the Fulani originated which was the Sahara not West Africa.

Which is where? Or are you under the impression that the Sahara and west Africa are mutually exclusive, and that the former is some kind of an extraterrestrial entity, LOL?


Specify!
 
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:

Your table does not establish that the African Bos Taurine is a hybrid breed. That is the conclusion "you" erroneously gleaned from your sources table, on your own. You are putting words in your source's mouth, to reach a strange conclusion about the African Bos Taurus that NO source supports.

Speaking of which, this is what is SUPPORTED by science:


Hanotte et al. used allele frequencies from 50 populations of modern cattle across the African continent to examine genetic variation. Their results reveal three ancient genetic signatures and each signature’s center of origin or region of entry. The native African taurine breed was independently domesticated in northeastern Africa, perhaps the eastern Sahara, and later migrated with pastoralist or crop-livestock farmers west and south. Asian zebu cattle were introduced along the east coast of Africa and in Madagascar and were most likely transported along a marine route from the Indian subcontinent. Finally, Near Eastern and European taurine cattle were primarily introduced along the shores of North Africa during the colonial period. These findings provide a genetic record of African cattle origins and migrations that have far-reaching implications for human migrations and the adaptive strategies used by African populations. They also require us to reexamine the models of domestication more broadly. - M. A. Kennedy

Consistent with this, from another source...

For the greater Mediterranean area, these analyses have shown that the mitochondrial control region haplotypes for modern cattle (i.e., Bos taurus) belong to one of 4 sequence clusters or haplogroups (Fig. 1). Most (94%) modern cattle populations from Northern Africa carry haplogroup T1, which is rarely found outside of Africa (6% in the Near East and absent elsewhere). In contrast, modern populations from mainland Europe carry 2 very similar haplogroups, T and T3 (94%), which decrease in the Middle East (65%-74%) and almost completely disappearing Africa (6%). Haplogroup T2 makes up the remainder of this mtDNA diversity and is present at 6% in Europe and 21%-27% in the Near East, but is absent from Africa. These haplogroup distributions have been interpreted as indicating a Near East origin for European B. taurus and the independent domestication of cattle in Africa (Bradley et al. 1996, Troy et al. 2001, Hanotte et al. 2002). - - Ascunce et al. 2007, An Unusual Pattern of Ancient Mitochondrial DNA Haplogroups in Northern African Cattle

From your own source...

High **genetic divergence** between the Bos species in Africa, Europe and India is supportive evidence that they could have been domesticated independently.

These reports are at odds with your idea of the African Bos Taurus being a "hybrid" product.

Read and learn!
 
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:

The issue here is not with the geographic origin
of Fulani

That is in fact THE issue here; where have you been?


quote:

but their classification as genetically
and phenotypically indicus.

So what source of your's disregards the Fulani's African heritage; is it possible that you don't know what "hybrid" means?

quote:

A look into cattle
classification is in order to ascertain the set
of specifications that make a breed indicus or
taurus in our topic.

Actually, contrary to your belief, word is that the so-called names attributed are in fact primarily one of a superficial one, i.e. morphological traits, rather than one materially premised on genetic facts...

See for example:

 -

This is where and why one comes across terms like "Zeboid" as well, as noted above.
 
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:

If a breed is not 'pure' then it is 'hybrid.'
Namchi and N'Dama are hybrid. This table also shows that the Ongole breed of
Indian zebu is between 2% and 20% of African
taurine admixture.

You miss the point really. There is such a thing as the genesis of the African Bos Taurus, which is an "original" phylogenetic unit on its own that is independent from either Bos Indicus or "Near Eastern"/European Bos Taurus. For some odd reason, you seem to get this idea that the African Bos Taurus came about from crossbreeding event(s) involving either of the latter entities, which is just, well, unfounded nonsense.

An illustration to supplement genetic reports I already fed you with earlier, including your own, is in order...

 -


quote:

As per the labels used and the admixture proportions
given, we see that despite admixture Bos indicus stays
Bos indicus and Bos taurus remains Bos taurus.

Your tables are but just a snapshot of African bovine genome in the samples undertaken. This means that you are not getting a broad enough or coherent picture of the contributing source elements; one has to realize that these cattle are domesticated livestock, and as such, are likely to be under selective pressure at certain or select loci. They were for the most part, intentionally crossbred to impart new sets of biological advantages to the source bovine lines in question. What does this mean? Well, it goes back to that 'thing' about certain loci being under selective pressure to impart selective advantage, and hence, liable to be insufficient in accurately providing a comprehensive reflection of the "source" gene pools involved. And just to demonstrate how so, consider what uniparental typing reveals for instance...

 -

 -

 -

 -

 -

While the distribution of classic uniparental markers may be subject to pressures of random genetic drift, possibly breeding selection trends, and effects of population size, it is generally free from restriction meted out by 'selective pressure'. So, these markers give a reasonable reflection of major discrete elements involved in the source gene pool(s).

Alas, I don't expect you to understand a thing related in here.
 
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

They originated in the same location where the Fulani originated which was the Sahara not West Africa.

Which is where? Or are you under the impression that the Sahara and west Africa are mutually exclusive, and that the former is some kind of an extraterrestrial entity, LOL?


Specify!

 - Note Sahara

 -

The area partitioned in Red is the Senegambia where the Fulani live

 -

 -

As you can see from these pictures West Africa is not part of the Sahara, especially the Senegambia and Nigeria.

 -


.
 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
For some odd reason, you seem to get this idea that the African Bos Taurus came about from crossbreeding event(s) involving either of the latter entities, ...

Strawman: these are your words not mine. If there's
something you don't understand then politely ask and
I can elaborate.

This started when in reply to RW&B+C I wrote
"As was posted a month ago in one of these Peuhl
threads, Aryan (Indian) origin theory for Fulani is
based on their cattle -- a type of zebu -- "
.

How anyone can misconstrue that and make into an
announcement of the very first African taurines
10,000 or so years ago into being part indicus is
beyond me (especially since Ibeagha-Awemu's table
shows, for those of intelligence enough to ken it,
Muturu which have no indicine genetics).

The cattle of the Fulani people living today and
as seen by the Euro ethnologists a century or two
ago are "a type of zebu," African zebu.

These ethnologists, not knowing the genesis of
African zebu, made an assumption that the Fulani
people were originally Indian because of their
herds of zebu also wrongly assumed to be Indian
zebu.

The cry of Fulani cattle not being zebu is foolish.
They are zebu, African zebu, as their physical
characteristics and their genetics make clear.

You are quite simply in gross error when you said
Fulani cattle are "NOT zebu". You have become
increasingly emotional over the issue unable to cite
facts relating to the cattle without intertwining
your responses with personal assessments about me
and my capabilities.

Of course this is but a ploy to turn a civil discussion
sharing facts into a do or die debate where one person
has to be a winner and let te facts be damned.

All that aside, I'm comfortable with the fact of
Fulani cattle being zebu as academics and beef
and dairy professionals atest. Until they say
otherwise I say the Fulani are zebu.

Now go on and have the last word, after which the
Fulani cattle will still remain what they are, zebu.
 
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

 - Note Sahara

Noted! Now, Clyde, I suspect you are past kindergarten level schooling: Where in the Sahara do you presume the Fulani cattle originated?

If need be, here is a map to assist you:

 -
 
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:

For some odd reason, you seem to get this idea that the African Bos Taurus came about from crossbreeding event(s) involving either of the latter entities, ...

Strawman: these are your words not mine.
Really? So, that is the reason you have the need to point out to me that the African Bos Taurus are hybrid? I mean seriously, do you want me to quote you on it? Lol!


quote:

If there's
something you don't understand then politely ask and
I can elaborate.

What do you suppose I'm been doing to this point? I've asked you literally like 4 or 5 times, without answer, why you deem the Fulani cattle Bos Indicus, even though your sources, as any other produced herein, clearly state the Fulani is a west African hybrid breed of both Bos Indicus and Bos Taurus.


quote:

This started when in reply to RW&B+C I wrote
"As was posted a month ago in one of these Peuhl
threads, Aryan (Indian) origin theory for Fulani is
based on their cattle -- a type of zebu -- "


How anyone can misconstrue that and make into an
announcement of the very first African taurines
10,000 or so years ago into being part indicus is
beyond me (especially since Ibeagha-Awemu's table

It shouldn't be beyond you, if you are capable of thinking, because no such thing happened; it is just a figment of your imagination. What did happen, is that you were caught saying that "African Bos Taurus is hybrid"; again, I ask, do you want to be cited on saying so...again and again?


quote:

The cattle of the Fulani people living today and
as seen by the Euro ethnologists a century or two
ago are "a type of zebu," African zebu.

Regardless of what the Euro "ethnologists" think, as I have been trying to relate to you time and again, the Fulani cannot be deemed "Bos Indicus" for reasons I laid out over the course of our exchange, over and over again, to fall into def ears. The onus is on you to demonstrate why the Fulani cattle should be deemed simply "Bos Indicus", and essentially disregarding its "Bos Taurus" heritage.


quote:

These ethnologists, not knowing the genesis of
African zebu, made an assumption that the Fulani
people were originally Indian because of their
herds of zebu also wrongly assumed to be Indian
zebu.

And they are wrong for that determination.

quote:

The cry of Fulani cattle not being zebu is foolish.

If it were foolish as you say, you'd be swiftly materially defending why you call the Fulani, a west African "hybrid" bovine of Bos Taurus AND Bos Indicus, simply "Bos Indicus", instead of tap dancing.


quote:
They are zebu, African zebu, as their physical
characteristics and their genetics make clear.

Their genetics makes it clear that they are descendents of "both" Bos Taurus and Bos Indicus; how does this suddenly render them just "Bos Indicus"; please do clarify!

Yes, I've been aware of the so-called naming schemes based primarily on morphological traits; I already told you so. That though, my friend, says little in actual genetic basis for such terminology.

quote:


You are quite simply in gross error when you said
Fulani cattle are "NOT zebu".

If I were in gross error, you'd be showing me how so. You haven't, why? I mean, I said they aren't Zebu, because quite simply, they have a lineage that is distinct from the Zebu/Bos Indicus: they are a hybrid product of BOTH Bos Indicus and Bos Taurus. Do you have evidence to the contrary? If so, produce it, and then, I'll concede that you've proven me wrong about the Fulani not REALLY being Zebu; your call!


quote:


You have become
increasingly emotional over the issue unable to cite
facts

Really? What do you suppose citing those excerpts and photocopy pages of books were, if not relating facts? Are you confusing citing facts with emotionalism; is it possible you don't understand what these citations implicate, which is why you deem them "emotional"?


quote:


Of course this is but a ploy to turn a civil discussion
sharing facts into a do or die debate where one person
has to be a winner and let te facts be damned.

al Takruri, don't know what planet you came from, but it is a rule of debate, that you back up what you assert. Your claim that the Fulani has to simply be deemed Bos Indicus, disavowing its Bos Taurus heritage, as such requires "backing up"; why are you reluctant in doing so, other than saying that "others says so, and so, I follow suit"?

quote:

All that aside, I'm comfortable with the fact of
Fulani cattle being zebu as academics and beef
and dairy professionals atest. Until they say
otherwise I say the Fulani are zebu.

Well, until you *materially" prove it, I say you are wrong in deeming the Fulani as simply "Bos Indicus".

quote:

Now go on and have the last word, after which the
Fulani cattle will still remain what they are, zebu.

I've had the last word from the onset, as you have been unable to demonstrate why the Fulani cattle should simply be deemed "Bos Indicus" despite their "hybrid" ancestry. Parroting people doesn't make an idea correct!
 
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
[  - Note Sahara

Here is West Africa

 -

As I said before West Africa is not part of the Sahran zone. The Fulani originated in the Saharan Highlands not West Africa.
 
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

[  - Note Sahara

Here is West Africa

 -

As I said before West Africa is not part of the Sahran zone. The Fulani originated in the Saharan Highlands not West Africa.

BS. You don't know how to read your own half-baked maps. But do please try again:

Where in the Sahara do you presume the Fulani cattle originated?

If need be, here is a map to assist you:

 - [/QUOTE]

Do you believe this map is incorrect, and that the Sahara doesn't not venture into western Africa? The answer to this should be interesting...
 
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
 
Hey, Clyde, let me confuse you with this question:

Is Morocco and Algeria in western Africa or not?

Another question to confuse you with...

Produce a single genetic source that places Fulani cattle origin anywhere but western Africa! [Smile]

The level of ignorance that keeps creeping up on this board is astonishing.
 
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
Hey, Clyde, let me confuse you with this question:

Is Morocco and Algeria in western Africa or not?

Another question to confuse you with...

Produce a single genetic source that places Fulani cattle origin anywhere but western Africa! [Smile]

The level of ignorance that keeps creeping up on this board is astonishing.

Morocco is part of North Afica.
 -

.
 
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
 
^Lol @ Morocco is in north Africa; well, where: west, central, or east?

Ps - Do you not believe that say -- Mali, Niger, Senegal, Mauritania, Burkina Faso are part of North Africa?

Where does North Africa begin and end, and according to what parameters?
 
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
^Lol @ Morocco is in north Africa; well, where: west, central, or east?

Ps - Do you not believe that say -- Mali, Niger, Senegal, Mauritania, Burkina Faso are part of North Africa?

Where does North Africa begin and end, and according to what parameters?

Here are the regions of Africa:


 -

.
 
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
 
Clyde, are you honestly saying you don't know what parameters determines what is north, south, west, east?

If your prep teacher asked you this question, you'll just spam with the "geopolitical" map above?
 
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
 
By the way Clyde, what happened to your answer to this question; did the question confuse you too much?

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:

Another question to confuse you with...

Produce a single genetic source that places Fulani cattle origin anywhere but western Africa! [Smile]


 
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
 
Paraphrasing what had transpired here:

Explorer: Fulani are not Zebu, but a hybridized breed from Bos Indicus AND Bos Taurus

al Takruri: The Fulani ARE Zebu, because that is how my source describes it, and most "western" academic sources describes it.

Explorer: Are you suggesting that the Fulani's African heritage is irrelevant, by simply deeming the Fulani Zebu; if so, why?

al Takruri: My source suggests that the African Zebu have more Zebu ancestry than Bos Taurus. So, I take it that this is why they call the Fulani "Zebu". I therefore translate the Bos Taurus component as merely "admixture", which has no bearing on the Fulani being recognized as a "full-blown" Zebu. One can say that it is pretty much like how we humans identify ourselves, despite hybrid ancestry!


Explorer: But you have to understand that the ancestry indicated in your source, does not allow one to get a broad enough or accurate picture of the Fulani's actual genetic heritage. Why? Because, the Fulani was the product of domestication, meaning that it was intentionally cross-bred to bring out and retain certain advantageous features from the contributing source-bovines. These advantageous features would have had to have been instructed by certain DNA coding, rendering certain DNA loci under "selective pressure". Such a situation would therefore make these loci insufficient in determining the actual level of contribution of the contributing distinct bovine-sources. Other loci may well simply be relatively stable in the face of random genetic drift, by chance occurrence. To demonstrate how all this could be, one only need to look at what uniparental genotyping from the so-called African Zebus thus far reveal: these tests show that in the case of African "Zebu" breeds, a majority of them have "Zebu" paternal ancestry, but by contrast and almost "exclusively", they have the Bos Taurus maternal ancestry! This is a true definition of a "hybrid" ancestry. It is not as if the African "Zebu" are largely "Zebu" in both maternal and paternal ancestry, and that only a small segment of their population is "Zebu" and "Bos Taurus" in ancestry, so as to deem the "aberration" as "admixture", but that this is true for virtually all the African "Zebu", that they happen to have both "Zebu (Bos Indicus)" and "Bos Taurus" uniparental ancestry.

Yes, there are hybrids amongst the so-called African breeds of "Bos Taurus", but unlike their so-called "Zebu" counterparts, there are actually sizable populations of these "Bos Taurus" who have virtually ONLY "Bos Taurus" ancestry both maternally and paternally.

Your analogy with human social constructs is funny, because they are neither scientific, nor are humans several distinct "subspecies", or do you believe otherwise?

al Takruri: They are zebu, African zebu, as their physical characteristics and their genetics make clear.

Explorer: Yes, I've been aware of the naming schemes based primarily on morphological traits; I already told you so. That though, says little in actual genetic basis for such terminology.

al Takruri: You are just being emotional [translation: anytime someone disagrees with me, I have to call it 'being emotional', so that I can find a way out of not addressing the pressing issue(s) at hand]. Until you provide "peer-reviewed" material showcasing otherwise, I stand by what I said.

Explorer: I have literally fed you with research documents, and you call that "emotionalism"; why?

Your own sources reaffirm what I've been saying all along, with regards to the "hybrid" ancestry of the so-called African Zebu from two considerably "divergent" bovine phylogenies [Bos Taurus and Bos Indicus]; this forms THE BASIS of WHY I find it inaccurate to simply call the Fulani "Zebu". Yet you say that my position is unsupported by "peer-review" sources?! Does this now mean that even your own source isn't 'peer-reviewed'?

al Takruri: Of course this is but a ploy to turn a civil discussion sharing facts into a do or die debate where one person has to be a winner and let te facts be damned.

Explorer: The problem with that viewpoint, is that I've had the last word from the onset, as you have been unable to demonstrate why the Fulani cattle should simply be deemed "Bos Indicus" despite their "hybrid" ancestry. Parroting people doesn't make an idea correct!

al Takruri: All that aside, I'm comfortable with the fact of Fulani cattle being zebu as academics and beef and dairy professionals atest. Until they say otherwise I say the Fulani are zebu. Now go on and have the last word, after which the Fulani cattle will still remain what they are, zebu.

Explorer: So your line of defense, is essentially this: that "elements of "western" academia call the Fulani cattle as simply "Zebu", and to me, these words from the so-called "West" is what shall be all and end of discussion! They are the "deciders" of what I think and should think. It doesn't matter what loose-ends are there in their ideology, and your intention to bring such matters to the center of attention. As such, your audacity to even question their position, will only be greeted with my contempt and utter indifference to the underlying merit.

LOL, so I imagine it wouldn't matter to al Takruri either, how even the associated African pastoralists themselves characterize these cattle; as far as he's concerned, they'd be wrong in any case, for it is those few in the so-called "West" who shall decide what they [African bovines in question] ought to be called, and that decision trumps all and beyond the so-called "west" -- rightly or wrongly.


Going onto the exchange with Clyde:

Explorer: All genetic sources place the Fulani cattle origins in western Africa.

Clyde: No, the said cattle originate in the Sahara, where the Fulani originate.

Explorer: Where in the Sahara would that be?

Clyde: The Sahara is not in western Africa.

Explorer: Seriously dude, are you telling me that the Sahara doesn't venture into western Africa?

Clyde: Look, at these maps [half-baked 'geopolitical' maps]. I told you that "West Africa is not part of the Saharan zone".

Explorer: Lol, here is another map of the Sahara to assist you; where in the Sahara do the Fulani originate? Do you believe this map is incorrect?

Clyde: No answer.

Explorer: Ok, no answer. Let me stump you with some confusing questions. Where does north, south, west and east start and end; according to what parameters?

Also, produce a single genetic source that places Fulani cattle origins anywhere but western Africa.

Clyde: Here is another [geopolitical] map!

Explorer: Clyde, you are not saying that you are incapable of specifying the parameters that determine the north, south, west and east, are you? You are not simply going to give some non-sequitur in the form of some "geopolitical" map, are you?

And what happened to your [elusive] answer to this question:

Produce a single genetic source that places Fulani cattle origins anywhere but western Africa.
 
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
Clyde, are you honestly saying you don't know what parameters determines what is north, south, west, east?

If your prep teacher asked you this question, you'll just spam with the "geopolitical" map above?

Here are the regions of Africa:


 -


It is truely sad that you spend so much time arguing questions that are settled. This political map of Africa reflects the way I was taught African history at U of ILL-Urbana. I had to take courese on each region of Africa and their were text written on each region used in my studies.

Stop this farce acknowledge how researchers have divided Africa in the past 100 or more years.


.
 
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
By the way Clyde, what happened to your answer to this question; did the question confuse you too much?

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:

Another question to confuse you with...

Produce a single genetic source that places Fulani cattle origin anywhere but western Africa! [Smile]


I have seen no evidence that Fulani cattle originated in West Africa. In the material you posted above it simply states where the sample population in the study came from. It says nothing about the geographical origin of Fulani cattle. The Fulani outside West Africa have the same Zebu cattle.

What we do know is that the Fulani language is related to 12th Dynasty Egyptian and that it was during this period that Zebu cattle came to Egypt. This makes it clear that Fulani probably had humped cattle thousands of years before they migrated into West Africa from the East.

.
 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
I could care less what you put on your blog but
paraphrasing is a convenient way to lie. Legally
speaking leave my name off of your blog. When
plagiarizing you didn't use it. Don't use it now.
I do not grant you permission to use either my
name or my intellectual property outside of TNV
or ES.


quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
Paraphrasing what had transpired here:



 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
ATTENTION MODERATOR

I have ended dialog with this character on this subject.

Please either edit transscript (hi-lited below)
supposedly made by me from this post or delete
the whole post. Explorer is putting words in my
mouth I never said when he could very easily
quote me verbatim.

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
Paraphrasing what had transpired here:

Explorer: Fulani are not Zebu, but a hybridized breed from Bos Indicus AND Bos Taurus

al Takruri: The Fulani ARE Zebu, because that is how my source describes it, and most "western" academic sources describes it.


Explorer: Are you suggesting that the Fulani's African heritage is irrelevant, by simply deeming the Fulani Zebu; if so, why?

al Takruri: My source suggests that the African Zebu have more Zebu ancestry than Bos Taurus. So, I take it that this is why they call the Fulani "Zebu". I therefore translate the Bos Taurus component as merely "admixture", which has no bearing on the Fulani being recognized as a "full-blown" Zebu. One can say that it is pretty much like how we humans identify ourselves, despite hybrid ancestry!



Explorer: But you have to understand that the ancestry indicated in your source, does not allow one to get a broad enough or accurate picture of the Fulani's actual genetic heritage. Why? Because, the Fulani was the product of domestication, meaning that it was intentionally cross-bred to bring out and retain certain advantageous features from the contributing source-bovines. These advantageous features would have had to have been instructed by certain DNA coding, rendering certain DNA loci under "selective pressure". Such a situation would therefore make these loci insufficient in determining the actual level of contribution of the contributing distinct bovine-sources. Other loci may well simply be relatively stable in the face of random genetic drift, by chance occurrence. To demonstrate how all this could be, one only need to look at what uniparental genotyping from the so-called African Zebus thus far reveal: these tests show that in the case of African "Zebu" breeds, a majority of them have "Zebu" paternal ancestry, but by contrast and almost "exclusively", they have the Bos Taurus maternal ancestry! This is a true definition of a "hybrid" ancestry. It is not as if the African "Zebu" are largely "Zebu" in both maternal and paternal ancestry, and that only a small segment of their population is "Zebu" and "Bos Taurus" in ancestry, so as to deem the "aberration" as "admixture", but that this is true for virtually all the African "Zebu", that they happen to have both "Zebu (Bos Indicus)" and "Bos Taurus" uniparental ancestry.

Yes, there are hybrids amongst the so-called African breeds of "Bos Taurus", but unlike their so-called "Zebu" counterparts, there are actually sizable populations of these "Bos Taurus" who have virtually ONLY "Bos Taurus" ancestry both maternally and paternally.

Your analogy with human social constructs is funny, because they are neither scientific, nor are humans several distinct "subspecies", or do you believe otherwise?

al Takruri: They are zebu, African zebu, as their physical characteristics and their genetics make clear.

Explorer: Yes, I've been aware of the naming schemes based primarily on morphological traits; I already told you so. That though, says little in actual genetic basis for such terminology.

al Takruri: You are just being emotional [translation: anytime someone disagrees with me, I have to call it 'being emotional', so that I can find a way out of not addressing the pressing issue(s) at hand]. Until you provide "peer-reviewed" material showcasing otherwise, I stand by what I said.


Explorer: I have literally fed you with research documents, and you call that "emotionalism"; why?

Your own sources reaffirm what I've been saying all along, with regards to the "hybrid" ancestry of the so-called African Zebu from two considerably "divergent" bovine phylogenies [Bos Taurus and Bos Indicus]; this forms THE BASIS of WHY I find it inaccurate to simply call the Fulani "Zebu". Yet you say that my position is unsupported by "peer-review" sources?! Does this now mean that even your own source isn't 'peer-reviewed'?

al Takruri: Of course this is but a ploy to turn a civil discussion sharing facts into a do or die debate where one person has to be a winner and let te facts be damned.

Explorer: The problem with that viewpoint, is that I've had the last word from the onset, as you have been unable to demonstrate why the Fulani cattle should simply be deemed "Bos Indicus" despite their "hybrid" ancestry. Parroting people doesn't make an idea correct!

al Takruri: All that aside, I'm comfortable with the fact of Fulani cattle being zebu as academics and beef and dairy professionals atest. Until they say otherwise I say the Fulani are zebu. Now go on and have the last word, after which the Fulani cattle will still remain what they are, zebu.

Explorer: So your line of defense, is essentially this: that "elements of "western" academia call the Fulani cattle as simply "Zebu", and to me, these words from the so-called "West" is what shall be all and end of discussion! They are the "deciders" of what I think and should think. It doesn't matter what loose-ends are there in their ideology, and your intention to bring such matters to the center of attention. As such, your audacity to even question their position, will only be greeted with my contempt and utter indifference to the underlying merit.

LOL, so I imagine it wouldn't matter to al Takruri either, how even the associated African pastoralists themselves characterize these cattle; as far as he's concerned, they'd be wrong in any case, for it is those few in the so-called "West" who shall decide what they [African bovines in question] ought to be called, and that decision trumps all and beyond the so-called "west" -- rightly or wrongly.




 
Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
 
alTakruri wrote:
---------------------------
Considering that even mulatos of parentage where
one is black skinned and the other white skinned
are mostly closer to white than black in colour
(look at Obama in group photos) and think of the
effect of cream on coffee.
---------------------------


What the hell is a mullato?

Thats 19th century racial taxonmy bs.

The whites have really f----d over your mind.
 
Posted by TheAmericanPatriot (Member # 15824) on :
 
cream improves coffee for some people
 
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Yes, those people who have weak digestive countenance who can't handle the strength of pure coffee need the cream to dilute it. Not unlike negrophobic racists like yourself that have weak psychological countenance who can't handle the cultural strength and intellectual potency of blacks and so needs "cream" in the form of white ancestry among blacks or worse---blatant white-washing of cultural achievements and advancents of blacks even in Africa--Egypt! [Embarrassed]
 
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
I could care less what you put on your blog but
paraphrasing is a convenient way to lie. Legally
speaking leave my name off of your blog. When
plagiarizing you didn't use it. Don't use it now.
I do not grant you permission to use either my
name or my intellectual property outside of TNV
or ES.


quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
Paraphrasing what had transpired here:



Explorer uses his blog to provide the last word on a subject. He will not publish any response you attempt to make and he will present your comments in a distorted fashion. He is not a seeker of truth.

Also, You may not be able to sue him unless you know his real name.


.
 
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:

I could care less what you put on your blog but
paraphrasing is a convenient way to lie.

And you don't think I couldn't care even lesser how you perceive my blog? As for paraphrasing to be a "convenient way to lie", it should be quite simple: Just point out wherein there, your viewpoint has not been accurately described via paraphrasing? If you don't know what "paraphrasing" means, I'll be happy to assist you.


quote:

Legally
speaking leave my name off of your blog.

I put on my blog whatever I see fit. Capish! Thought you could care less what I put on my blog, anyway?!

quote:

When
plagiarizing you didn't use it. Don't use it now.
I do not grant you permission to use either my
name or my intellectual property outside of TNV
or ES.

al Takruri, you are such a funny character, don't you know that. For starters, how does one "plagiarize" something that they are discrediting or even ridiculing...prey tell?


quote:


ATTENTION MODERATOR

I have ended dialog with this character on this subject.

Please either edit transscript (hi-lited below)
supposedly made by me from this post or delete
the whole post. Explorer is putting words in my
mouth I never said when he could very easily
quote me verbatim.

I have ended dialog with this character on this subject.

Please ignore his/her plea for censorship or "cocooning" his/her fragile-self from intellectual-challenge, by muting what "he/She" deems as the questioning of his/her "fake" authority on this board. He/she was long preceded by this veteran on this site, and yet he/she comes in here, all of a sudden acting like he/she owns the damn place.


Ps - Clyde, I'll reply to your BS when I get time. A "teacher" who doesn't know basic geographic parameters, and instead, relies on "geopolitics", LOL!
 
Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
 
Clyde you've got to be the dumbest thing this side of two legs.


How can Chad and Niger be so called "west" Africa while Morocco and Algeria aren't although both are further west than Chad or Niger?
 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
I don't have to sue him, it's his host which is
ultimately responsible for publishing him and
will eiher adhere to the law or waste money in
the courts.

I'm really not interested in his past plagiarisms
because what really matters is that the knowledge
spreads. But I will not tolerate if he chooses to
blog his so-called paraphrase of our exchange on
Fulani cattle.


But pick up on this, he knows they ARE zebu
quote:

Other notes: Fulani cattle are also deemed to be of west African origin, as a sub-phyla of the west African breed of Zebu cattle called the "West African Zebu,"...

That's what's on his blog under his MysterySolver
pseudonym.


So before he even posted "NOT zebu" here he blogged
zebu there, the guy justs likes to argue for argument's
sake. That's why he makes pretend my source, Ibeagha-Awemu,
isn't an African or that Bororo and Hausa are the dairy
professionals I allude to after the Oklahoma University
data.

Careful readers concerned with factual matter wouldn't
fail to perceive that. But someone looking to swell
their own head at another's expense would refuse to
see it because then they'd have nothing to make a fake fuss over.

In his next to last paragraph in his above post one
can see what his problem is, he feels eclipsed though
there's room for all to express themselves on these forums
quote:
Please ignore his/her plea for censorship or "cocooning" his/her fragile-self from intellectual-challenge, by muting what "he/She" deems as the questioning of his/her "fake" authority on this board. He/she was long preceded by this veteran on this site, and yet he/she comes in here, all of a sudden acting like he/she owns the damn place.
My life's too short for that mess, being at odds with
everyone all the time over nothing more than ego tripping.

But to each his own.


quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
I could care less what you put on your blog but
paraphrasing is a convenient way to lie. Legally
speaking leave my name off of your blog. When
plagiarizing you didn't use it. Don't use it now.
I do not grant you permission to use either my
name or my intellectual property outside of TNV
or ES.


quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
Paraphrasing what had transpired here:



Explorer uses his blog to provide the last word on a subject. He will not publish any response you attempt to make and he will present your comments in a distorted fashion. He is not a seeker of truth.

Also, You may not be able to sue him unless you know his real name.


.


 
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:

I don't have to sue him, it's his host which is
ultimately responsible for publishing him and
will eiher adhere to the law or waste money in
the courts.

Don't flatter yourself pal; you couldn't sue jack, especially for a "non-reason" entity, other than being your usual whino-self about being intellectually challenged.

quote:

I'm really not interested in his past plagiarisms

Which don't exist, other than a figment of your imagination.


quote:

because what really matters is that the knowledge
spreads. But I will not tolerate if he chooses to
blog his so-called paraphrase of our exchange on
Fulani cattle.

What will you do; sue me? Ha ha. You are funny, jack.

quote:


But pick up on this, he knows they ARE zebu
quote:

Other notes: Fulani cattle are also deemed to be of west African origin, as a sub-phyla of the west African breed of Zebu cattle called the "West African Zebu,"...


You are a moron. I never said I was not aware of people using that term; I did however say, the terminology is inaccurate, and I don't agree with it. Try to muddle this reiteration up, again.

quote:

So before he even posted "NOT zebu" here he blogged
zebu there, the guy justs likes to argue for argument's
sake.

Fool, I don't use that word myself, unless I'm citing somebody else or some other source. Do you know the difference between citing an external source, and expousing something oneself? Apparently not!


quote:

That's why he makes pretend my source, Ibeagha-Awemu,
isn't an African or that Bororo and Hausa are the dairy
professionals I allude to after the Oklahoma University
data.

Citing research materials that turn your arguments upsidedown have turned from being a function of "being emotional" to "pretence", LOL!. What will these research materials turn into next, LOL? You would be a jokester, if only you were funny.


quote:

Careful readers concerned with factual matter wouldn't
fail to perceive that.

Indeed, anybody who can read their ABCs and have good pair of eyes will notice the plentiful research material you were fed and schooled on, but apparentally did not penetrate your skull...both willfully and ignorantly.


quote:


But someone looking to swell
their own head at another's expense would refuse to
see it because then they'd have nothing to make a fake fuss over.

This is no more than your usual whinin'. You are reduced to nagging on and on, but the perceptive can see that you have not really recovered from the well-supported rebuttles I threw at you. There is an obvious discordance in our intuitions into the genetics subject field...with me having the upper hand.


quote:

quote:

In his next to last paragraph in his above post one
can see what his problem is, he feels eclipsed though
there's room for all to express themselves on these forums [QUOTE]Please ignore his/her plea for censorship or "cocooning" his/her fragile-self from intellectual-challenge, by muting what "he/She" deems as the questioning of his/her "fake" authority on this board. He/she was long preceded by this veteran on this site, and yet he/she comes in here, all of a sudden acting like he/she owns the damn place.


You mean that people here are all idiots that they can't see that you are a nagger, who pleas for censorship when you are backed in the corner, LOL?

quote:

My life's too short for that mess, being at odds with
everyone all the time over nothing more than ego tripping.

"Tripping" is the word I would use, to describe what you have been reduced to, not having the ability to intellectually justify your objections to my position.
I understand your frustration, trust me. [Wink]


Clyde, don't worry. I'll get back to you. [Big Grin]
 
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:

Clyde, are you honestly saying you don't know what parameters determines what is north, south, west, east?

If your prep teacher asked you this question, you'll just spam with the "geopolitical" map above?

Here are the regions of Africa:


http://exploringafrica.matrix.msu.edu/images/allregions.jpg


It is truely sad that you spend so much time arguing questions that are settled.

How does your inability to tell us what parameters determine north, south, west and east, and how this applies to Africa become a "settled matter" all of a sudden? Entertain me with a "logical" answer, not "your kind" of answer, to that question, LOL.

quote:

This political map of Africa reflects the way I was taught African history

The keywords: "Political", NOT scientific.

Indeed, you accuse others of being brainwashed by Eurocentric propaganda, but it is clearly YOU has has been mind-screwed thoroughly, that you'd resort to rehashing Euro-created "geopolitical" entities [which no doubt change from time to time as well] that you were "programmed" to repeat **without** secondary thinking. In your zeal to spread your delusions of an "extra-terrestrial-like" Fulani origin and separate them from west Africa, even though everything about them is as west African as they come, you have been left with no option than to use what you were "programmed" to think, like a helpless machine as your Euro masters had intended.

Funny thing is, not even radical Eurocentric loons harbor hairbrain wacky ideas like that espousing the Sahara NOT running through western Africa, that you come up with.

quote:

I had to take courese on each region of Africa and their were text written on each region used in my studies.

What was that course called: "Flunking basic geography", LOL?

quote:

Stop this farce acknowledge how researchers have divided Africa in the past 100 or more years.

Firstly, you are clueless about what constitutes west Africa or north Africa, where either entity begins or ends, and according to what objective or scientific parameters. Sorry, geopolitics is not scientific...contrary to what you were "taught" to believe, LOL.


Secondly, you have been rendered *totally* incapacitated in producing a single genetic source which places Fulani cattle origin anywhere other than western Africa, and so the stalling games of "non-answers" and half-baked Eurocentric-sanctioned "political" maps.

quote:


quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:

By the way Clyde, what happened to your answer to this question; did the question confuse you too much?

Another question to confuse you with...

Produce a single genetic source that places Fulani cattle origin anywhere but western Africa! [Smile]

I have seen no evidence that Fulani cattle originated in West Africa.
You haven't; but these geneticists have:

DAGRIS Team:
Dr. Edward Rege
Dr. Olivier Hanotte
Dr. Tadelle Dessie
Mr. Biruk Asrat
Ms. Yetnayet Mamo

http://dagris.ilri.cgiar.org/default.asp


quote:

In the material you posted above it simply states where the sample population in the study came from. It says nothing about the geographical origin of Fulani cattle.

It is natural for you to "think" that it doesn't say such a thing, when otherwise, we able-minded folks understand what this means:

Breed Group Name:
West African Zebu


The West African Zebu cattle consist of two main groups: the Gudali group (Adamawa, Sokoto) and the Fulani group.

The Fulani have been classified further into two groups: the lyre-horned subgroup consisting of Senegalese Fulani (or the Gobra), the Sudanese Fulani, and the White Fulani (or Bunaji); and long-horned subgroup represented by the Red Fulani (or Rahaji). Diali (or Djeli) is a strain of Fulani found on the flood plains of Niger river in Niger and south-west Nigeria (Rege 1999; Rege and Tawah, 1999).


I also posted this in a reply to al Takruri, who was also another absent-minded recipient of the highly instructive material:

 -

In case, you need hand-held "guiding" in reading, do you see the part where it says:

Introduced Zebu were crossbred with indigenous taurine cattle in Ethiopia where it is claimed they produced the Sanga -- an intermediate between true Zebu and taurine animals. Others spread to West Africa through the Sudan, crossbreeding with local humpless animals to produce breeds such as the Fulani in West Africa.

Now, show me a single genetic source that characterizes the Fulani as "East African Zebu" or "of east African origin"!


quote:

The Fulani outside West Africa have the same Zebu cattle.

Silly, of course they have "Fulani" cattle, because after all, they are the agents of its spread from western Africa to other parts of the continent. Your predicament is, that these cattle are further proof that the Fulani must have arrived from west Africa, because wherever they are, they have these cattle with them, of west African origin. The truth can be a bitch, can't it? [Big Grin]


quote:
What we do know is that the Fulani language is related to 12th Dynasty Egyptian
Newsflash: only YOU seem to know this, which is understandable, because it is a fruitcake idea that has no logical basis to it; "we" don't.

quote:

and that it was during this period that Zebu cattle came to Egypt. This makes it clear that Fulani probably had humped cattle thousands of years before they migrated into West Africa from the East.

Is that why the "Fulani" cattle are less than 1800 bp years old, and why one doesn't find "Fulani" cattle in AE reliefs? Is that why their DNA report a "west African ancestry" as opposed to "eastern African' one?

The zebu did not appear in West Africa until about 1800 BP -
http://dagris.ilri.cgiar.org/display.asp?ID=77

[Smile]
 
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
 
This topic began with the purpose of identifying the factors which demonstrated that the Fulani people had, at one time in their history, formed a part of the historical complex which we refer today as Ancient Egypt. It, for some reason, segued into a discussion on cattle, and of breeds of cattle --

...Zebu??

I was tempted to chime in with the fact that in Ancient Egypt there was a type of cattle referred to as "Tb", "Tebu", "Tepau"...and might there not be some connection with the "Zebu?"...

...but, we suddenly find the topic discussing such an irrelevant subject as the geological/political/ideological labels of the African continent - north?, south?, east?....

Obviously, this is a topic which is going nowhere and verrrrry slowwwly...

...It's like you tune your tv to watch say MSNBC, when some wise-ass, switches the channel to nut-land FOX news...

...You watch, now we'll be discussing television shows!

[Confused]
 
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

Explorer uses his blog to provide the last word on a subject.

Complete BS. Most of the material I post on my blog, involving any discussant on ES, are taken from "debates" that took place right here on ES. I don't control this board, nor do I pretend to control the board and ask for censorship like our buddy 'al Takruri does. In fact, over the years I have been the victim of extreme censorship here. How could I then use my "blog" to provide the last word? Now of course, I could give my additional 2 cents on said matters on my own webpage, but I'm entitled to that. If you have issue with that, I suggest you create your own, and stop the petty whinin'.


quote:

He will not publish any response you attempt to make

Utter BS. What is your proof of this? In fact, I have something here [taken from my blog] to bust your lie:

===
Truthseeker said...

Rilly believes that he can decipher the Meroitic language using the Proto-Northeastern Sudanic, which he has reconstructed. Accordingto Rilly,
since the people presently
living in the Sudan today speak languages associate with the Nilo Saharan Superfamily of languages, the Meroites probably spoke a language associated with this family. This was a radical decision, because research has shown that none of the attested Meroitic terms accepted by mainstream scholars are related to
any living language in the Sudan (there are some Meroitic terms borrowed from Egyptian).

Because there are no cognate Meroitic terms and lexical items in the Eastern Sudanic Languages, Rilly has begun to reconstruct
Proto-Eastern Sudanic, and attempt to read Meroitic text using his Proto-Eastern Sudanic vocabulary. Even if I hadn’t deciphered the Meroitic writing this method would never lead to the decipherment of this or any other language.

First,it must be stated that no“dead “language has been deciphered using a proto-language. These languages were deciphered using living languages, Coptic in the case of Egyptian, Oromo and(Ethiopian) Semitic was used to decipher the Mesopotamian Cuneiform scripts.

The basic problem with using a proto-anguage to read a dead language results from the fact that the proto-language has been reconstructed by linguist who have no knowledge or textual evidence of the alleged proto-language. Secondly, there are subgroups in any family of languages. This means that you must first establish the intermediate proto-language (IPL) of the subgroup languages in the target language family. Once the IPLs have been reconstructed, you can then
reconstruct the superordinate proto-language (SPL).

You can only reconstruct the SPL on the basis of attested languages. In addition, before you can reconstruct the IPLs and SPL a genetic relationship must be established for the languages within the Superfamily of languages, e.g., Nilo Saharan.

The problem with Rilly’s method, is there is no way he can really establish the IPLs in Eastern
Sudanic because we have not textual evidence or lexical items spoken by people who lived in the Sudan in Meroitic times.

As a result, the languages spoken
by people in this area today may not reflect the linguistic geography of the Sudan in the Meroitic period. This is most evident when we look at modern
Egypt. Today the dominant language is Arabic, and yet Arabic has no relationship to Egyptian. If we accept Rilly’s method for deciphering Egyptian we would
assume that once me reconstructed proto-Semitic , we could read Egyptian—but as you know Egyptian is not a Semitic language. Secondly, researchers have compared the “attested Meroitic” terms to all the Nilo-Saharan
languages. The results were negative, they do not relate to any Eastern Sudanic language.

If the lexical items attested in Meroitic are not cognate to Eastern
Sudanic terms, there is no way to establish a genetic relationship between these languages. Absence of a genetic relationship means that we can not reconstruct the imagined IPLs of Meroitic sister languages, since these researchers failed to find a connection between
Meroitic and the Eastern Sudanic. As a result, Rilly’s reconstructions of Nilo-Saharan can offer no insight into the language spoken by the Meroites.

Mystery Solver wrote:

“Obviously a gross misinterpretation of Mr. Rilly's premise. Mr. Rilly never said anything about reading Meroitic by using Proto-Nilo-Saharan. What Mr. Rilly did, as would be obvious to anyone who has read his piece, was to try to expand on the limited vocabulary available from previous work on the Meroitic script using a multi-contextual approach, but essentially the reasonably methodological & standard linguistic approaches to reconstruction.”

Mystery Solver claims that Rilly does not attempt to read Meroitic inscriptions using his “proto-terms”. This is false any cursory examination of the Rilly article shows that he tried to read a Meroitic panel using his vocabulary.


http://www.arkamani.org/arkamani-library/meroitic/rilly.htm

Mystery Solver knows nothing about linguistics. As a result, he does not understand that a Proto-language can never be verified, since such a language is the creation of the l


April 14, 2008 10:47 AM

Mystery Solver said...

Truthseeker, aka Clyde Winters,

It would be courteous of you to actually lay out the *specifics* that you intend to challenge on a point-by-point basis, naturally backed up with *actual* citations—NOT corrupt paraphrases—along with links of the supportive material, rather than simply rehash material that had already been refuted in the very post you're supposedly replying to.

Re-posting discredited material tends to only show lack of intellectual [including capacity] and energetic will to engage very specific points, not to mention lack of credibility integrity, and contempt for simple reading of the materials at hand.


truthseeker, aka Clyde Winters, wrote:

Mystery Solver claims that Rilly does not attempt to read Meroitic inscriptions using his “proto-terms”. This is false any cursory examination of the Rilly article shows that he tried to read a Meroitic panel using his vocabulary.


Simple really: I challenge you to put up the specific Mr. Rilly citation [with its link of course] for this spurious claim about reading Meroitic by using "proto-terms"...or else, as they say; simply remain "silent" — to put it rather politely!

Try to live up to your chosen alias, instead of the opposite.

Thanks


April 24, 2008 9:44 AM


Guess who that moron "Truthseeker" is; yeap, you guessed it, none other than our buddy Clyde Winters, LOL. These were taken from my blog, right here: http://exploring-africa.blogspot.com/2008/03/revisiting-exchanges-with-clyde-winters.html

This busts your petty lie about my not publishing comments that I don't agree with. I publish material, regardless of its merit, as long as the commenter is not being rude in their wording or using ad hominem to relate their opinion! You have offered no support for the BS coming out of your ass, other than simply going by "I say so", and I target any sucker out there who chooses to willfully and ignorantly be duped, like al Takruri who has been intellectually destitute enough to even recite you, LOL.


quote:

and he will present your comments in a distorted fashion.

I don't know which school has been dumb enough to have hired you to be a "teacher" of any sort, but it is clear you don't have any trait that characterizes one. I mean seriously, do you really feel the need to shamelessly lie out in the open, just to make yourself artificially intelligent?

Here is your comment:

Truthseeker said...

Rilly believes that he can decipher the Meroitic language using the Proto-Northeastern Sudanic, which he has reconstructed. Accordingto Rilly,
since the people presently
living in the Sudan today speak languages associate with the Nilo Saharan Superfamily of languages, the Meroites probably spoke a language associated with this family. This was a radical decision, because research has shown that none of the attested Meroitic terms accepted by mainstream scholars are related to
any living language in the Sudan (there are some Meroitic terms borrowed from Egyptian).

Because there are no cognate Meroitic terms and lexical items in the Eastern Sudanic Languages, Rilly has begun to reconstruct
Proto-Eastern Sudanic, and attempt to read Meroitic text using his Proto-Eastern Sudanic vocabulary. Even if I hadn’t deciphered the Meroitic writing this method would never lead to the decipherment of this or any other language.

First,it must be stated that no“dead “language has been deciphered using a proto-language. These languages were deciphered using living languages, Coptic in the case of Egyptian, Oromo and(Ethiopian) Semitic was used to decipher the Mesopotamian Cuneiform scripts.

The basic problem with using a proto-anguage to read a dead language results from the fact that the proto-language has been reconstructed by linguist who have no knowledge or textual evidence of the alleged proto-language. Secondly, there are subgroups in any family of languages. This means that you must first establish the intermediate proto-language (IPL) of the subgroup languages in the target language family. Once the IPLs have been reconstructed, you can then
reconstruct the superordinate proto-language (SPL).

You can only reconstruct the SPL on the basis of attested languages. In addition, before you can reconstruct the IPLs and SPL a genetic relationship must be established for the languages within the Superfamily of languages, e.g., Nilo Saharan.

The problem with Rilly’s method, is there is no way he can really establish the IPLs in Eastern
Sudanic because we have not textual evidence or lexical items spoken by people who lived in the Sudan in Meroitic times.

As a result, the languages spoken
by people in this area today may not reflect the linguistic geography of the Sudan in the Meroitic period. This is most evident when we look at modern
Egypt. Today the dominant language is Arabic, and yet Arabic has no relationship to Egyptian. If we accept Rilly’s method for deciphering Egyptian we would
assume that once me reconstructed proto-Semitic , we could read Egyptian—but as you know Egyptian is not a Semitic language. Secondly, researchers have compared the “attested Meroitic” terms to all the Nilo-Saharan
languages. The results were negative, they do not relate to any Eastern Sudanic language.

If the lexical items attested in Meroitic are not cognate to Eastern
Sudanic terms, there is no way to establish a genetic relationship between these languages. Absence of a genetic relationship means that we can not reconstruct the imagined IPLs of Meroitic sister languages, since these researchers failed to find a connection between
Meroitic and the Eastern Sudanic. As a result, Rilly’s reconstructions of Nilo-Saharan can offer no insight into the language spoken by the Meroites.

Mystery Solver wrote:

“Obviously a gross misinterpretation of Mr. Rilly's premise. Mr. Rilly never said anything about reading Meroitic by using Proto-Nilo-Saharan. What Mr. Rilly did, as would be obvious to anyone who has read his piece, was to try to expand on the limited vocabulary available from previous work on the Meroitic script using a multi-contextual approach, but essentially the reasonably methodological & standard linguistic approaches to reconstruction.”

Mystery Solver claims that Rilly does not attempt to read Meroitic inscriptions using his “proto-terms”. This is false any cursory examination of the Rilly article shows that he tried to read a Meroitic panel using his vocabulary.


http://www.arkamani.org/arkamani-library/meroitic/rilly.htm

Mystery Solver knows nothing about linguistics. As a result, he does not understand that a Proto-language can never be verified, since such a language is the creation of the l


Tell us what has been specifically and intentionally "distorted" about it, other than the distorted logic you yourself espouse in there, LOL?

Don't quit your daytime job to become liar; you suck at it.


quote:

He is not a seeker of truth.

Why; because I don't let little ol' Clyde get away with stupid and illogical claims that he wishes to spout up in here? LOL.


quote:

Also, You may not be able to sue him unless you know his real name.

Well, a word of advice is this: if you are going to sue somebody, you might want to first make sure that it is not a totally stupid thing to do that revolves around a 'non-reason' entity, which I'm afraid, is what's precisely the case here. For example, you can't sue someone, simply because they choose to refute and rid you off of your stupidity, like say, was done in al Takruri's case. And even if you knew my real name, what are you going to sue about? That I choose to reproduce our exchange, an exchange which doesn't make you look good, because you were stupid enough to make utter dumb and illogical comments, LOL? Sue me, because you have this fake sense of "ownership" for nothing original from your part? Sue me, because you've thought of lies to spread about me, that have no legs to stand on? Well, be my guest. I can't wait to be a party to this circus. [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
Explorer you are so full of yourself that you believe everything you write is true. There is no such thing as a scientific division of Africa the whole enterprise is political.

Here are the regions of Africa:


 -


Explorer grow up.
 -
.
.
 
Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
 
Clyde Winters wrote:
--------------------------
--------------------------

How can Niger/Chad be "west" Africa and Morocco/Algeria not be "west" Africa when they are even further west than Niger/Chad?


How can Libya not be "west" Africa and Chad be "west" Africa when they are at almost the same latitude?
 
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
[qb] The Fula speak a language that is part of the Niger-Congo group.There is controversy surrounding the homeland of Niger-Congo.But most linguist place the homeland for this linguistic group in the Nile Valley. An origin of the Niger-Congo people in the Nile Valley would explain the close relationship between the Fulani and Egyptian languages; and place Fulani in East Africa.


 -


For example, Jaja, J. M. 2008 “Interdisciplinary Methods for the Writing of “African History: A Reappraisal,” European Journal of Social Sciences 5(4): 55-65
[QUOTE]

(2) Niger – Kordofanian homeland
The West African region is largely made up of the Niger-Kordofanian language family. The block of course excludes the 100 or 50 languages classified as Afro-Asiatic and the Songhai and Kanuri languages which belong to the Nile -–Saharan group. The Niger – Kordofanian family is composed of three large blocks called the Mande, Niger – Congo and Kordofanian. Niger – Congo occupies the eastern section of West Africa, Mande the Western section and Kordofanian the area to the south west of Sudan. The present geographical location of these three language blocks forms a fanlike structure, which suggests that their homeland is at the south-western Sahara where the boundaries of each group converge. The Mande group does not have the same degree of internal diversity as the Niger – Congo and Kordofanian. But Niger-Congo and Kordofanian have the same degree of diversity. (Dalby 1965). A combination of this fact and the fan-shaped arrangement of the three language blocks suggests that
they belong to the same main language family. Besides, the unfavourable ecological situation north of the homeland, and the possibility of only moving southwards explains the fan-shaped nature of the dispersal to the area of southwestern Sahara.


Jaja discusses the present location of the speakers of these languages, but like Welmers he situates there homeland in the Sahara near Nubia.

McIntosh, R. J. 1998 The Peoples of the Middle Niger: the Island of Gold Oxford: Blackwell Publishers
quote:


Thus, we have a curious—and complex—pattern of prehistoric occupation in the Méma. There are a few sites demonstrably earlier than c. 4500-4000 BP [3.3-2.5 KBC]. There is a flourit of stone-using communities around 3500-3300 BP [1.9-1.6KBC] (with population injections from the Hodh and the Azawad). Then the region suffers an apparent sharp fall-off of population at c. 800-500 BC (despite a final infusion of Tichitt folk at mid-millennium)..

Does not contradict Welmer’s, all it says is that people from Dar Tichitt entered the area around 800-500 BC, this was hundreds of years after the Mande had established settlement in the Dar Tichitt region.



Roger Blench, Is Niger-Congo simply a branch of Nilo-Saharan, Nilo-Saharan ,(1995) 10:83-128, like Welmer’s noted that :

"Previous writers, noting the concentration of families in West Africa, have tended to assume a location somewhere near the headwaters of the Niger and explained Kordofanian by the migration of a single group. If the present classification is accepted, it becomes far more likely that the homeland was in in the centre of present-daySudan and the Kordofanian represents the Niger-Congo speakers who stayed at home (p.98)."


Roger Blench. 2006. Archaeology, Language, and the African Past New York: Altamira Press
quote:


pp. 132-133. With some misgivings, Table 3.4 puts forward dates and possible motives for expansion for the families of Niger-Congo. The dates are arranged in order of antiquity, not in the hypothetical order suggested by the genetic tree, and, in many cases the two are strongly at variance. There is no necessary correlation between the age of a family estimated from its apparent internal diversity and the date at which it appears to split from the Niger-Congo tree.. .
. . .

MANDE 6000 BP Mande languages have spread from north to south with scattered outliers in Nigeria and Cote d’Ivoire. Mande shares the common Niger-Congo roots for cow and goat, and perhaps the Proto-Mande were an isolated livestock-keeping population at the edge of the desert, which expanded southward as habitat change created potential space for livestock keeping. Reconstructions implying cropping are not present in the protolanguage.


Christopher Ehret. 2000 “Language and History,” in B. Heine and D. Nurse, eds. African Languages.An Introduction pp. 274-297 Canbridge: Cambridge University Press
quote:


p. 294 A second, but still early and important stage in Niger-Congo history was the proto-Mande-Congo era. At this period, or so it appears from the evidence of word histories, the cultivation of the guinea yam and possibly other crops, such as the oil palm, began among at least the peoples of the Atlantic and Ijo-Congo branches of the family (Williamson 1993 proposes the early words for these crops; Greenberg 1964 identifies an Atlantic and Ijo-Congo verb for cultivation, •-lim-). Between possibly about 8000 and 6000 BC, these people spread across the woodland savannahs of West Africa, the natural environment of the Guinea yams. At that time, woodland savannah environments extended several hundred kilometers farther north into the Sudan belt than they do today.


The Blench hypothesis of the Mande living in the Sahara and moving southward does not conflict with my theory of a Saharan origin for the Mande speakers.

The term lim, is not the Mande term to cultivate.


In al-Imfeld, Decolonizing: African Agricultural History (2007) , claims that in relation to African agriculture the cultivation of yam began 10,000 years ago and rice cultivation in Africa by 6000 BC.

The major cultivated crop of the Mande speakers was millet not the yam. The term for cultivation among the Mande was not lim is Proto-Paleo-Afro-Dravidian *be . Millet was probably cultivated over 5000 years ago.

The earliest sites for the cultivation of millet lie in the Sahara . Here the earliest archaeological evidence has been found for African millets.

The major grain exploited by Saharan populations was rice ,the yam and pennisetum. McIntosh and McIntosh (1988) has shown that the principal domesticate in the southern Sahara was bulrush millet (pennisetum). Millet impressions have been found on Mande ceramics from both Karkarchinkat in the Tilemsi Valley of Mali, and Dar Tichitt in Mauritania between 4000 and 3000 BP. (McIntosh & McIntosh 1983a,1988; Winters 1986b; Andah 1981)

The linguistic evidence indicates that the Mande and Dravidian speakers formerly lived in intimate contact , in the Sahara. The speakers of these languages share many terms for agriculture.

Given the archaeological evidence for millets in the Sahara, leads to the corollary theory that if the Dravidians originated in Africa, they would share analogous terms for millet with African groups that formerly lived in the Sahara.

One of the principal groups to use millet in Africa are the Northern Mande speaking people . The Mande speaking people belong to the Niger-Congo group. Most linguist agree that the Mande speakers were the first Niger-Congo group to leave the original Nile Valley and Saharan highland primary homeands of the Niger-Congo speakers.

The Northern Mande speakers are divided into the Soninke and Malinke-Bambara groups. Holl (1985,1989) believes that the founders of the Dhar Tichitt site where millet was cultivated in the 2nd millenium B.C., were northern Mande speakers. To test this theory we will compare Dravidian and Black African agricultural terms, especially Northern Mande. The linguistic evidence suggest that the Proto-Dravidians belonged to an ancient sedentary culture which existed in Saharan Africa. We will call the ancestor of this group Paleo-Dravido-Africans.

The Dravidian terms for millet are listed in the Dravidian Etymological Dictionary at 2359, 4300 and 2671. A cursory review of the linguistic examples provided below from the Dravidian (Kol, Tamil ,Kannanda, & Malayalam ) , Mande and Wolof languages show a close relationship between these language. These terms are outlined below:

code:
Kol                sonna       ---             ---       ----
Wolof (AF.) suna --- ---- ---
Mande (AF) suna bara, baga de-n, doro koro
Tamil connal varaga tinai kural
Malayalam colam varaku tina ---
Kannanda --- baraga, baragu tene korale,korle
*sona *baraga *tenä *kora

Below we will compare other Dravidian and African agricultural terms. These terms come from the Mande languages (Malinke, Kpelle, Bambara, Azer, Soninke), West Atlantic (Wolof, Fulani), Afro-Asiatic (Oromo, Galla), Somali, Nubian and the ancient Egyptian.
The Paleo-Dravido-Africans came from a sedentary culture that domesticated cattle and grew numerous crops including wheat and millet. The Egyptian term for cultivation is Ø b j(w) #. Egyptian Ø b j(w) # corresponds to many African terms for cultivation:
code:
Galla    baji  'cultivated field'
Tulu (Dravidian language) bey, benni
Nubian ba, bat 'hoe up ground'
Malinke be
Somali beer
Wolof mbey, ambey, bey
Egyptian b j(w)
Sumerian buru, bur 'to root up'

These terms for cultivate suggest that the Paleo-African term for cultivate was *be.

The Egyptian term for grain is 0 sa #. This corresponds to many African terms for seed,grain:
code:
Galla          senyi
Malinke se , si
Sumerian se
Egyptian sen 'granary'
Kannanda cigur

Bozo sii
Bambara sii
Daba sisin
Somali sinni
Loma sii
Susu sansi
Oromo sanyi
Dime siimu
Egyptian ssr 'corn'
id. ssn 'lotus plant'
id. sm 'herb, plant'
id. isw 'weeds'

The identification of a s>Ø/#_________e pattern for 'seed,grain' in the above languages suggest that these groups were familiar with seeds at the time they separated into distinct Supersets. The fact that Sumerian Ø se # and Egyptian Ø sen #, and Malinke
Ø se # are all separated both in time and geographical area highlight the early use of seeds * se , by Paleo-Dravido-Africans.


code:
	Rice
Soninke dugo
Vai ko'o
Manding malo
Dravidian mala-kurula
Mende molo, konu
Kpelle moloy
Boko mole
Bisa muhi
Busa mole
Sa mela
Bambara kini

Yam
Bozo ku, kunan
Vai jambi
Malinke ku
Dravidian kui, kuna, ku
Bambara ku

It would appear that all the Proto-Dravidians were familiar with the cultivation of rice, yams and millet. This is not surprising because Weber (1998) made it clear that millet cultivation in ancient South Asia was associated with rice cultivation.

The linguistic evidence clearly show similarities in the Afican and Dravidian terms for plant domesticates. This suggest that these groups early adopted agriculture and made animal domestication secondary to the cultivation of millet, rice and yams. The analogy for the Malinke-Bambara and Dravidians terms for rice, millet and yams suggest a very early date for the domestication of these crops.

In summary, population pressure in the Sahara during a period of increasing hyperaridity forced hunter/gather/fisher Proto-Dravido-African people to first domesticate animals and then crops. The linguistic evidence discussed above indicate that the Proto-Dravido-African people migrated out of the Nile Valley to West African and Harappan sites with millet, yam and rice already recognized as principal domesticated crop.

This comparison of Mande agricultural terms make it clear, that just like the Egyptian term for dog uher , the speakers of these languages share the terms for cultivate, and seed. It also shows that before the Dravidians separated from the Mande speakers these groups were cultivating also cultivating rice and the yam.


The Niger-Congo speakers which include the Fula, Mande and Wolof originated in the Nile Valley—not West Africa. They migrated from East to West. The oral traditions of these people make it clear that when they arrived on the scene pygmy people were already settled in many areas they occupied.


quote:

Wm. E. Welmers. 1971 "Niger-Congo, Mande" in T.A. Sebeok, et al. eds. Linguistics in sub-Saharan Africa (Current Trends in Linguistics, 7), pp. 113-140 The Hague: Mouton

P 119-120. By way of conclusion to this general overview of the Mande languages, a a bit of judicious speculation about Mande origins and migrations may not be out of order. It has already been stated that the Mande languages clearly represent the earliest offshoot from the parent Niger-Congo stock—not counting Kordofanian, which Greenberg considers parallel to all of the Niger-Congo, forming a Niger-Kordofanian macrofamily. An original Niger-Congo homeland in the general vicinity of the upper Nile valley is probably as good a hypothesis as any. From such a homeland, a westward Mande migration may have begun well over 5000 years ago. Perhaps the earliest division within this group resulted in the isolation of what is now represented only by Bobo-fing. Somewhat later— perhaps 3500 to 4500 years ago, and possibly from a new homeland around northern Dahomey [now Benin]— the ancestors of the present Northern-western Mande peoples began pushing farther west, ultimately reaching their present homeland in the grasslands and forests of West Africa. This was followed by a gradual spread of the Southern-Eastern division, culminating perhaps 2000 years ago in the separation of its to branches and the ultimate movement of Southern Mande peoples southeast and westward until Mano and Kpelle, long separated, became once more contiguous.

This reconstruction of Mande prehistory receives striking support from a most unexpected source— dogs. Back in the presumed Niger-Congo homeland—the southern Sudan and northern Uganda of modern times— is found the unique barkless, worried-looking, fleet Basenji, who also appears on ancient Egyptian monuments with the typical bee that compensates for his natural silence. Among the Kpelle and Loma people of Liberia, a breed of dogs is found which is so closely identical to the Basenji that it now recognized as the ‘Liberian Basenji’. In all of the Sudan belt of Africa from the Nile Valley to the Liberian forest, the dogs are somewhat similar in appearance, but very obviously mongrelized. It would appear that the Mande peoples originally took their Basenji dogs with them in their westward migration. At that time, the present Sahara desert was capable of sustaining a substantial population, and was presumably the homeland of the Nilo-Saharan peoples. The early Mande moment thus may have been through uninhabited land, and their dogs were spared any cross-breeding. The farthest westward Mande movement—that of the Southwestern group—was virtually complete before contact with dogs of other breeds. With the gradual drying of the Sahara and the southward movement of the Nilo-Saharan peoples, the remaining Mande peoples, as well as later waves of Niger-Congo migration made contact with other people and other dogs. The present canine population of the Liberian forests thus reflects the very early departure of the Mande peoples from their original homeland, and the subsequent early movement of the Southwestern group towards its present location, without contacting substantial number of unrelated people or dogs.


Liberian Basenji
 -

Egyptian Basenji
 - Egyptian Basenji Dog Hieroglyph

 -

.
Trade might account for the presence of Basenji dogs in both places. But, from the sense of the article, Welmers claims that speakers of other African languages surrounding the Kpelle have different dogs.


The term for Basenji may be uher. In Egyptian uher also means house, so some people claim the Egyptians placed a dog size after uher to denote the term dog.


web page

Niger-Congo hunters probably early domesticated the dog. Hunters used dogs to catch their prey .

Egyptian Hieroglyph
 -


.


Egyptian term for dog corresponds to many African, and Dravidian terms for dog:
.


The above data indicates that there is contrast between Paleo-Afican l =/= r. The Egyptian Ø uher # , Azer Ø wulle # and Manding Ø wuru # suggest that the r > l in Paleo-African.

There is also vowel alternation in the terms for dog o =/= u. The predominance of the vowel /u/ in the terms for dog, make it clear that o<u. This evidence suggest that there are two Paleo-African terms for dog: Paleo-African [PA] *uru and *oro.

Futhermore, this comparison of the term for dog within and among Niger-Congo languages and Egyptian supports Welmers view that the dog was domesticated in the Nile Valley before the speakers of these languages separated, and migrated to other parts of Africa.


The key to science, is that control is used to test the cause of a hypothesis, layman rarely use control, they accept a hypothesis gased on belief and biases.

Finally scientists test relationships to determine their validity. Science is concerned only with things that can be tested and observed.

Let's look at Welmers hypothesis. All research begins with a research question.

Research Question: Where did the Niger Congo speakers originate?

Null hypothesis: There is no relationship between the present location of the Niger-Congo speakers and the original homeland of the speakers of these languages.

Result: The Niger Congo speakers probably originated in the Nile Valley because the Kpelle , who speak a Mande language, have the basanji dog, which was the domesticated dog of the Egyptians and other Nile Valley people.

The hypothesis was further supported by a most interesting finding, that was that the basanji dog is not the hunting dog of other ethnic groups inhabiting areas between the Nile Valley and where the Mande speakers live.

Welmers hypothesis was confirmed. To disconfirm this hypothesis you have to present evidence that nullifies the findings of Welmers.

To test Welmers hypothesis, I compared the Egyptian term for dog and the Mande term for dog. The linguistic evidence supports the physical evidence discussed by Welmer.

Wm. E. Welmers identified the Niger Congo home land. Welmers in "Niger-Congo Mande", Current trends in Linguistics 7 (1971), pp.113-140,explained that the Niger-Congo homeland was in the vicinity of the upper Nile valley (p.119). He believes that the Westward migration began 5000 years ago.

In support of this theory he discusses the dogs of the Niger-Congo speakers. This is the unique barkless Basenji dogs which live in the Sudan and Uganda today, but were formerly recorded on Egyptian monuments (Wlemers,p.119). According to Welmers the Basanji, is related to the Liberian Basenji breed of the Kpelle and Loma people of Liberia. Welmers believes that the Mande took these dogs with them on their migration westward. The Kpelle and Loma speak Mande languages.

He believes that the region was unoccupied when the Mande migrated westward. In support of this theory Welmers' notes that the Liberian Banji dogs ,show no cross-breeding with dogs kept by other African groups in West Africa, and point to the early introduction of this cannine population after the separation of the Mande from the other Niger-Congo speakers in the original upper Nile homeland for this population. As a result, he claims that the Mande migration occured before these groups entered the region.

Linguistic research make it clear that there is a close relationship between the Niger-Congo Superlanguage family and the Nilo-Saharan languages spoken in the Sudan. Heine and Nurse (Eds.), in African languages: An introduction , Cambridge University Press, 2000, discuss the Nilo-Saharan connection. They note that when Westerman (1911) described African languages he used lexical evidence to include the Nilo-Saharan and Niger-Congo languages into a Superfamily he called "Sudanic" (p.16). Using Morphological and lexical similarities Gregerson (1972) indicated that these languages belonged to a macrophylum he named " Kongo-Saharan" (p.16). Research by Blench (1995) reached the same conclusion, and he named this Superfamily: "Niger-Saharan".

Genetic evidence supports the upper Nile origin for the Niger-Congo speakers. Rosa et al, in Y-Chromosomal diversity in the population of Guinea-Bissau (2007), noted that while most Mande & Balanta carry the E3a-M2 gene, there are a number of Felupe-Djola, Papel, Fulbe and Mande carry the M3b*-M35 gene the same as many people in the Sudan.

In conclusion, Welmers proposed an upper Nile (Sudan-Uganda) homeland for the Niger-Congo speakers. He claims that they remained intact until 5000 years ago. This view is supported by linguistic and genetics evidence. The linguistic evidence makes it clear that the Nilo-Saharan and Niger-Congo languages are related. The genetic evidence indicates that Nilo-Saharan and Niger-Congo speakers carry the M3b*-M35 gene, an indicator for the earlier presence of speakers of this language in an original Nile Valley homeland.

In summary Welmer’s makes two key points: 1) the Mande migration began around 3000BC out of the Nile Valley; and 2)Welmers proposed migration from Benin around 1500BC, 1500 years after the initial migration of the Mande from the Nile Valley.

.
 
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
First the founders of the first Dynasty of Egypt came from the south. They originally lived in the highland regions like Tassili before the area became arid.

No one in this discussion disagrees with the fact that the Fula also inhabited this region.

As I have noted in previous post and discussed by Diop in his numerous books, in relation to Egypt three things exist.

First, the original power in Egypt was the Anu. The Anu were conquered by Narmar.

Secondly, the Berbers did not originate in Africa they are the result of the Vandels and populations from Arabia and only recently arrived on the scene.

Thirdly, the civilization of Egypt came from the South.

Let's begin the discussion


A comparison of Egyptian, Niger-Kordofanian-Mande, Elamite,Dravidian and Sumerian indicates that they diverged from a common ancestor. The Dravidian examples discussed below are taken from Tamil. All of these languages share pronouns and demonstrative bases. (Winters 1989a) This is proven by a comparison of three terms: chief, city and black.

The above examples from languages spoken by blacks validates Diop's theory that there were cognate black civilizations in Africa and Asia, before the expansion of the Indo-European speaking peoples after 1500 BC. This linguistic data which is outlined in further detail elsewhere (Winters 1985b,1989a) illustrates that a common cultural macrostructure is shared by these speakers, which subsequently evolved along separate lines. Given the genetic unity of these languages we should call this group B(lack) Af(rican), Su(merian), Draa(vidian), (E)lam or Bafsudraalam Superset of languages. This supports Diop's use of the comparative method to illuminate the African past.

Yurco (1989,p.29) also falsely states that the Berber speakers were Libyans. This is false, as proven by Diop (1977). Diop (1977) illustrates that the Berber genealogies place their origin in Saudi Arabia, and point to a very recent settlement (2000 years ago) in the Central Sahara. Diop (1977) believes that the Berbers are the result of the early mixture of Africans and Germanic speaking Vandals. (Diop 1986) This would explain the evident close relationship between the Berber and German languages.

The original inhabitants of the Sahara where the Kemetic civilization originated were Blacks not Berbers or Indo-European speakers. These Blacks formerly lived in the highland regions of the Fezzan and Hoggar until after 4000 BC. This ancient homeland of the Dravidians, Egyptians, Sumerians, Niger-Kordofanian-Mande
and Elamite speakers is called the Fertile African Crescent. (Anselin, 1989, p.16; Winters, 1981,1985b,1991). We call these people the Proto-Saharans (Winters 1985b,1991). The generic term for this group is Kushite. This explains the analogy between the Bafsudraalam languages outlined briefly above. These Proto-Saharans were called Ta-Seti and Tehenu by the Egyptians. Farid(1985,p.82) noted that "We can notice that the beginning of the Neolithic stage in Egypt on the edge of the Western Desert corresponds with the expansion of the Saharian Neolithic culture and the growth of its population". (emphasis that of author).


Kemetic (Egyptian) civilization came from the south not the North as alleged by Yurco (1989). Martel (1992) does admit that Kemetic civilization came from the Saharan Highlands:The Mountains of the Moon, but he failed to admit that Diop's (1974) hypothesis that Kemetic civilization and writing came from the south was proven by the excavations at Qustul. (Williams 1987; Anselin 1989)

The inhabitants of ancient Nubia and Kush are called A-Group, C-Group and etc. by archaeologists. The artifacts found in the A-Group royal cemetery of the Nubians in Ta-Seti at Qustul were the founders of Kem. Bruce Williams (1987,p.173) of the Oriental Institute of the University of Chicago has made it clear that the Qustul pharaohs are the Egyptian rulers referred to as the "Red Crown Rulers".


There are similarities between Egyptian and Saharan motifs (Farid,1985). It was in the Sahara that we find the first evidence of agriculture, animal domestication and weaving (Farid , 1985, p.82). This highland region is the Kemites "Mountain of the Moons " region, the area from which the civilization and goods of Kem, originated.

The rock art of the Saharan Highlands support the Egyptian traditions that in ancient times they lived in the Mountains of the Moon. The Predynastic Egyptian mobiliar art and the Saharan rock art share many common themes including, characteristic boats (Farid 1985,p. 82), men with feathers on their head (Petrie ,1921,pl. xvlll,fig.74; Raphael, 1947, pl.xxiv, fig.10; Vandier , 1952, p.285, fig. 192), false tail hanging from the waist (Vandier, 1952, p.353; Farid, 1985,p.83; Winkler 1938,I, pl.xxlll) and the phallic sheath (Vandier, 1952, p.353; Winkler , 1938,I , pl.xvlll,xx, xxlll).

Due to the appearance of aridity in the Mountains of the Moon the Proto-Saharans migrated first into Nubia and thence into Kem. The Proto-Saharan origin of the Kemites explain the fact that the Kushites were known for maintaining the most ancient traditions of the Kemites as proven when the XXVth Dynasty or Kushite Dynasty ruled ancient Egypt. Farid (1985, p.85) wrote that "To conclude, it seems that among Predynastic foreign relations, the [Proto-]Saharians were the first to have significant contact with the Nile Valley, and even formed a part of the Predynastic population" (emphasis author).

This means that the Nomes probably represent different "states" incorporated into ancient Egypt. It is quite possible that each nome represented a different ethnic group.

If this is true the Egyptian language was probably a lingua franca used to provide a means of communication for the diverse people who lived in ancient Egypt. This would explain why Egyptian was used to write Kushite text until Egyptians migrated into Meroitic lands once Egypt was under the control of the Romans.

Alain Anselin La Question Peule, makes it clear that the Fula originated in Egypt. He supports this theory with the obvious similarity between the words for cattle and milk shared by the Egyptians, Fula and Dravidians (Tamil). He believes that by the 12 Dynasty of Egypt Fula were settled in Egypt.

The Egyptians had many gods. They had these gods because as new ethnicities formed nomes in Egypt they brought their gods with them.

A good example of this amalgamation of various African ethnicities into Egypt is the followers of the god Ra. Some of the first rulers of Egypt saw Ra as the main god.

Later the Egyptians worshipped Aman/Amun which was a Saharan god. ). By the 2nd millennium BC Kushites at kerma were already worshippers of Amon/Amun and they used a distinctive black-and-red ware (Bonnet 1986; Winters 1985b,1991). Amon, later became a major god of the Egyptians during the 18th Dynasty.

A majority of Fula may have remained nomadic, but settled Fula probaly form a major ethnic group in an Egyptian Nome, as did Wolof and Mande speaking people. This is the best way to explain the close genetic linguistic relationship between these groups.

Granted, some Wolof, Mande and Fula made their way to West Africa, but many speakers of these languages remained in Egypt and made up one of the various nomes associated with Egypt.

DNA can tells us little about this period unless they recover DNA from the people living at that time. DNA from living individuals only tell us abou the contemporary group. Not the original people.


Egypt was a cosmopolitan area inhabited by diverse people who move up the Nile from the south to found the First Dynasty. Since the people of Dynastic Egypt originated in the Sahara and moved from south to north . The archaeological evidence makes it clear that no one originated in Egypt.

.
 
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

Explorer you are so full of yourself that you believe everything you write is true. There is no such thing as a scientific division of Africa the whole enterprise is political.

Here are the regions of Africa:


 -


Explorer grow up.
 -
.
.

Disgraceful, and they wonder why school systems are in jeopardy in the States, LOL. You are so full of yourself that you cannot distinguish politics and cultism from science. When you've spent all your life lying and misinforming yourself, it becomes hard to distinguish fiction from scientific reality; this is what has become you.
 
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
Disgraceful, and they wonder why school systems are in jeopardy in the States, LOL. You are so full of yourself that you cannot distinguish politics and cultism from science. When you've spent all your life lying and misinforming yourself, it becomes hard to distinguish fiction from scientific reality; this is what has become you.

This pathetic idiot, being unable to respond in a cogent fashion to the information presented by Dr. Winters, chooses his only option - he gives us his personality/character analysis of Dr. Winters, who is NOT the topic of this conversation but rather a contributor...
 
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
 
--regarding Dr. Winters above reference to the Egyptian domesticated dog...

DOG

 -


HOUSE DOG

 -

( Dog in Coptic: Ouhor, Ouhar )
 
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Wally:

This pathetic idiot,

Fock you; make yourself useful and go suck on yo mama's pussy.
 
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
 
quote:
the Berbers did not originate in Africa
Unlike the Dravidians, who did. [Roll Eyes]

Amazingly - this discourse is undisturbed by the fact that there are no Dravidians in Africa, and no archeological site which can show that there ever were.

And there are no Berber anywhere but Africa and no archeological site that can show that there ever were.

Willfull genetic illiteracy also comes to your aid, since the fact that the majority of male Berber are of native Haplotype E which originated in Africa 40 thousand years ago, and so cannot come from German Vandals within the last few thousand years.

Nor can ruminations from Diop or anyone else dispute this fact, as they are pre-genetic.

Yet, this is to be completely ignored, by you - as an unpleasant fact, which explodes your fantasies.

Just as the fact that Dravidians consist almost entirely of non African lineages, unlike the Berber, who share lineages with other Africans, too explodes your fantasies, and is too, ignored.

In other words....you've made virtually no progress on this site, in years - misquoting outdated materials out of context, and simply ignoring all informations to the contrary.

And that's too bad. [Frown]
 
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
 
quote:
This topic began with the purpose of identifying the factors which demonstrated that the Fulani people had, at one time in their history, formed a part of the historical complex which we refer today as Ancient Egypt
^ Dissembling.

The topic actually claims Fulani originated in Ancient Egypt.

What you just claimed above, is different, and might be claimed for Greeks, Jews, and even Arabs.

I noted a month ago, that you keep changing your claims because you realize you can't prove the original claim.

I give you credit for not swearing, but you share blame for the deterioration of your own thread, because you persist in dishonest and disingenuous argumentation.

See you another month....maybe.
 
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by rasol:
quote:
This topic began with the purpose of identifying the factors which demonstrated that the Fulani people had, at one time in their history, formed a part of the historical complex which we refer today as Ancient Egypt
^ Dissembling.

The topic actually claims Fulani originated in Ancient Egypt.

What you just claimed above, is different, and might be claimed for Greeks, Jews, and even Arabs.

I noted a month ago, that you keep changing your claims because you realize you can't prove the original claim.

I give you credit for not swearing, but you share blame for the deterioration of your own thread, because you persist in dishonest and disingenuous argumentation.

See you another month....maybe.

Still having trouble with the 'ol English language I see...

"Topic: The Egyptian Origin of the Fulani"

The definition of the noun "origin" is used as a "cause, basis" and NOT as a "beginning, inception!"

Main Entry: origin
Part of Speech: noun
Definition:cause, basis

1: ancestry, parentage
-- the line of ancestors from whom a person is descended

Cause, Basis Synonyms for 'Origin': ancestor, ancestry, antecedent, base, causality, connection, derivation, determinant, fountain, influence, inspiration, mainspring, occasion, parent, parentage, principle, producer, progenitor, roots, seed, source...

Now, will it take another month for you to understand this???
 
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
 
English is not the only problem Rasolowitz has.
 
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Wally:
quote:
Originally posted by rasol:
quote:
This topic began with the purpose of identifying the factors which demonstrated that the Fulani people had, at one time in their history, formed a part of the historical complex which we refer today as Ancient Egypt
^ Dissembling.

The topic actually claims Fulani originated in Ancient Egypt.

What you just claimed above, is different, and might be claimed for Greeks, Jews, and even Arabs.

I noted a month ago, that you keep changing your claims because you realize you can't prove the original claim.

I give you credit for not swearing, but you share blame for the deterioration of your own thread, because you persist in dishonest and disingenuous argumentation.

See you another month....maybe.

Still having trouble with the 'ol English language I see...

"Topic: The Egyptian Origin of the Fulani"

The definition of the noun "origin" is used as a "cause, basis" and NOT as a "beginning, inception!"

Main Entry: origin
Part of Speech: noun
Definition:cause, basis

1: ancestry, parentage
-- the line of ancestors from whom a person is descended

Cause, Basis Synonyms for 'Origin': ancestor, ancestry, antecedent, base, causality, connection, derivation, determinant, fountain, influence, inspiration, mainspring, occasion, parent, parentage, principle, producer, progenitor, roots, seed, source...

Now, will it take another month for you to understand this???

If I am meant to understand the above babblement as anything other than - an even more desparate attempt to distract via dissembling, then yes - it is likely to take many more months.

And, I wouldn't hold my breadth waiting if I were you.

Just like I don't hold my breadth waiting for to cut the phony posturing, and produce the evidence of the "Egyptian Origin" of the Fulani.

Because I know you will never do so.

Because there isn't any.

And this is why I refuse to let you bore me with your babblement via ridiculous claims. [Roll Eyes]
 
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
 
^ well entertain us some more with your racial-units-are-fundamental-but-fundamental-units-are-not-racial logic again. LOL
 
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
 
rasol,
...are you sure that you're rasol? You certainly don't sound like yourself!

quote:
...babblement ...desparate attempt to distract via dissembling...phony posturing...produce evidence(!?) of... your babblement via ridiculous claims...
This sounds more like the anti-Obama 'birthers' who despite being presented with evidence of a birth certificate, an act of congress, clippings from the Honolulu newspapers mentioning his birth there, keep insisting on "where's the evidence?"

It doesn't sound like rasol...

--You mean to tell me that an Arab-Egyptian, whose presence in Egypt dates back to c600 AD or a Greek of Alexandria whose ancestors in Egypt predates even that of the Arab cannot claim an Egyptian origin???

No one would suggest that the Greek or Arab citizen of Egypt were originally from that country, in fact, as Dr. Winters correctly pointed out, no one is originally from Egypt. But it is their country of origin.

If you are, indeed, rasol then I know that you know what I'm talking about...

--and the others here have presented countless evidence, 'birth certificates' demonstrating the Fulani's presence in Ancient Egypt. In fact, I opened this topic by presenting two illustrations of evidence of this presence:

1)
Now look at the following quote, one that places the origin of the Fulani safely in the 'upper Nile region,' which ignores the historical reality that the Fulani were Egyptian nationals prior to their emigration into the upper Nile region,

quote:

Fulani history
Some historians believe the Fulani emerged from a prehistoric pastoral group that originated in the upper Nile region around 3500 B.C. As the climate of the Sahara grew increasingly harsh, population pressures drove them to migrate slowly west and south in search of better grazing lands. By the eleventh century the Fulani emerged as a distinct people group in the Sénégambia Valley. Over the next 400 years they journeyed back east, but south of the Sahara, which had become an inhospitable desert.
Traditionally most Fulani are shepherds or cattle herders, but over time some settled down and, by the nineteenth century, had established a series of kingdoms between Sénégal and Cameroon. The Fulani have myths about how the nomads and settled rulers emerged...

2)
...for starters here's some linguistic data comparing Fulani / Mdu Ntr...

I - mi / ni
you - on / un
we - en / un
they - be / bu (people)
to be bad - bonude / boone
bad - boni / bon
death; to die - maayde;maayude / maati, moute, moout, mouti
last year - rawanen / snouf; ronpe
eye - yitere / eirti
blessing - barka / baraka
cow - nagge / naga
father - baaba / baba
...
In fact, none of us here, who agree with scholars like Diop, etc. have ever merely state in an 'imperial' manner that 'the Fulani are from Ancient Egypt!' - we constantly and consistently have provided documentation supporting the Egyptian origin of the Fulani.

[Cool]
 
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
 
quote:
we constantly and consistently have provided documentation supporting the Egyptian origin of the Fulani.
^ In this thread you provide only empty rhetoric and attempted distractions from your lack of evidence, and nothing more.

And you never will provide anything of substance, which is why I won't chase you.


Your word lists are like something Winters would do, to "prove" Mandingo origins of Mandarin Chinese.

They only "evidence" your lack of evidence.
 
Posted by Energy (Member # 16438) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

What we do know is that the Fulani language is related to 12th Dynasty Egyptian and that it was during this period that Zebu cattle came to Egypt. This makes it clear that Fulani probably had humped cattle thousands of years before they migrated into West Africa from the East.

.

Interesting! Clyde, can you please shed some more light (evidence) on how the Fulani language is related to 12th Dynasty Egyptian?
 
Posted by Energy (Member # 16438) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by rasol:
quote:
we constantly and consistently have provided documentation supporting the Egyptian origin of the Fulani.
^ In this thread you provide only empty rhetoric and attempted distractions from your lack of evidence, and nothing more.

And you never will provide anything of substance, which is why I won't chase you.


Your word lists are like something Winters would do, to "prove" Mandingo origins of Mandarin Chinese.

They only "evidence" your lack of evidence.

Its all down to population and geography rasol. The Fulani are the largest nomadic group in Africa. The land mass they occupy stretch from the Atlantic in West Africa all the way to central and east Africa. You get the picture rasol?

Now ask yourself, if the ancient Egyptians were made up of immigrants and were driven out by invading forces and wars further down deep into Africa. Given the huge population of the Fulani and the land mass they occupy, if one were to look for the ancient Egyptians in Africa who would be the best candidate?

I hope you getting my point. Given this information, it would be ridiculous to suggest that immigrants from other parts of Africa made up ancient Egypt but the Fulani were not present. Given their size, and the huge size of Africa they occupy, the Fulani would have been the largest ethnic group that made up ancient Egypt.


Here is a tip. Next time you look at the images of ancient Egyptians, forget about comparing their features to Ethiopians and Somali but rather compare them to Fulani features and see how closely they match.
 
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Didn't know this. . . .


The Fulani are a people group in several regions of Africa, whose distinctive physical features are similar to people in Egypt, northern Sudan, and Ethiopia. Their tall, lean bodies, light skin, wavy hair, and thin noses and lips contrast starkly to other African tribal groups surrounding them.

Location
Nearly 20 million Fulani are spread across 19 African countries in an area stretching from the shores of Sénégal to the borders of Ethiopia
 
Posted by Asar Imhotep (Member # 14487) on :
 
Why is this even an issue when the Fulani have the same word for farming as the ancient Egyptians? You don't by chance, by way of osmosis, created the same tools and have the same word for an agricultural process.

http://www.ankhonline.com/revue/lam_ab_houe_mr.htm

Abstract : — mr , A FARMING INSTRUMENT THROUGH TIME AND SPACE — In Ancient Egypt, "mr", denoted a large or small hoe. In contemporary Black Africa, similarly shaped hoes are used for the same agricultural tasks as in Ancient Egypt. Also, the terminology used for designating agricultural space and land ownership by Fulaani of the Senegal river region and the Mandingo of Casamance is the same as in Ancient Egypt. These are only several of numerous examples (cf. Ankh n°1)which indicate the deep cultural unity connecting the ancient Egyptians with present day Negro Africans. (This article is in French however)
 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
And you still don't. Fulani do not have wavy hair. The
hair is nappy and well tended, constantly plaited or
braided, undone, oiled, then plaited or braided again.
This constant over attention to grooming makes a low
frequency winding to the nap in comparison to other
textures of nappy hair that literally coils or whose
winding is a higher frequency.

Nose and lips are rather medium in measurement, not thin.

Skin varies from dark chocolate to caramel, it is not
uniformily light but general falls into the red category
of the internal African reckoning of red and black.

The majority of the 13 million Fulani are settled, some are even farmers!
One cannot extrapolate WoDaabe leanings onto the entire Fulani people.

quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
Didn't know this. . . .


The Fulani are a people group in several regions of Africa, whose distinctive physical features are similar to people in Egypt, northern Sudan, and Ethiopia. Their tall, lean bodies, light skin, wavy hair, and thin noses and lips contrast starkly to other African tribal groups surrounding them.

Location
Nearly 20 million Fulani are spread across 19 African countries in an area stretching from the shores of Sénégal to the borders of Ethiopia


 
Posted by Energy (Member # 16438) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
And you still don't. Fulani do not have wavy hair.
The hair is nappy and well tended, constantly plaited
or braided, undone, oiled, then plaited or braided again.
This constant over attention to grooming makes a low
frequency winding to the nap in comparison to other
textures of nappy hair that literally coils or whose
winding is a higher frequency.





Oh please spare us your ignorance. Did you really get what xyyman said. In case you missed it, here it is again; "The Fulani are a people group in several regions of Africa, whose distinctive physical features are similar to people in Egypt, northern Sudan, and Ethiopia."

In case you do not understand the underlying implication of that statement it means the Fulani features come in different flavors based on which part of Africa you find them.

In case you still don't get it, the bottom line is, based on their geographical location in Africa, there are Fulani that look like pale skin Ethiopians with soft wavy hair while at the same time you have Fulani that look like your everyday negro with nappy hair. Fulani are one people but come in different flavors.
 
Posted by Energy (Member # 16438) on :
 

 
Posted by Energy (Member # 16438) on :
 
The answer to the mystery of the race of the ancient Egyptians. Behold the Fulani people in whom the Negro, the Somalid and the Arab are all reflected. In the Fulani you would understand why images of ancient Egyptians came in many flavors.

ENJOY!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfgkzkrO59w
 
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Wish I could travel throughout the continent to see these peoples first hand. Not only the Fulani.

Great video Energy.

@ Altk. That was from Encyclopedia Britannica. They tend to be less bias than NG or other Encyclopedias.

BTW - I assume it is the language AND culture that group these people?
 
Posted by zarahan (Member # 15718) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Energy:
The answer to the mystery of the race of the ancient Egyptians. Behold the Fulani people in whom the Negro, the Somalid and the Arab are all reflected. In the Fulani you would understand why images of ancient Egyptians came in many flavors.

ENJOY!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfgkzkrO59w

There is no "mystery" to the race of the ancient Egyptians. The original stock were tropically adapted indigenous Africans that came from south of the Sahara. The later coming of the Hyskos, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Arabs, etc would alter this but the fundamental continuity remained. That is why more stable limb proportions still show the Egyptians cluster closer to tropical African groups than to Europeans or Middle Easterners.


 -


 -


 -

 -

 -

 -

 -


-------------------------------------------------------
As for the Fulani, most of their genes cluster with West African groups. End of story.


Tissue Antigens. 2001 Feb;57(2):128-37. Links
HLA class I in three West African ethnic groups: genetic distances from sub-Saharan and Caucasoid populations.Modiano D, Luoni G, Petrarca V, Sodiomon Sirima B, De Luca M, Simporé J, Coluzzi M, Bodmer JG, Modiano G.


"Fulani of Burkina Faso (West Africa) are a particularly interesting ethnic group because of their lower susceptibility to Plasmodium falciparum malaria as compared to sympatric populations, Mossi and Rimaibé. Moreover, the occurrence of a Caucasoid component in their genetic make-up has been suggested on the basis of their physical traits and cultural traditions even though this view was not supported by genetic studies... Our study does not suggest the involvement of HLA I in the higher resistance to malaria of Fulani, and confirms a low, if any, Caucasoid component in their gene pool.

 
Posted by Energy (Member # 16438) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by zarahan:

As for the Fulani, most of their genes cluster with West African groups. End of story.

You make a very bold statement in what I have just quoted zarahan. What evidence do you have to show or prove that MOST Fulani genes cluster with West African groups and no one else, I mean that is what, 'end of story' translates as? There are many Fulani that look completely like Arabs in North Africa, just as there are Fulani that look like the AFAR people of Ethiopia so for you to say their genes MOSTLY cluster with Negroes in West Africa, end of story, fly in the face of the evidence on the ground and you need to prove it.
 
Posted by zarahan (Member # 15718) on :
 
There is no need to pretend. No one is being fooled. I just gave you a reference. Here it is again:

Tissue Antigens. 2001 Feb;57(2):128-37. Links
HLA class I in three West African ethnic groups: genetic distances from sub-Saharan and Caucasoid populations.Modiano D, Luoni G, Petrarca V, Sodiomon Sirima B, De Luca M, Simporé J, Coluzzi M, Bodmer JG, Modiano G.


"Fulani of Burkina Faso (West Africa) are a particularly interesting ethnic group because of their lower susceptibility to Plasmodium falciparum malaria as compared to sympatric populations, Mossi and Rimaibé. Moreover, the occurrence of a Caucasoid component in their genetic make-up has been suggested on the basis of their physical traits and cultural traditions even though this view was not supported by genetic studies... Our study does not suggest the involvement of HLA I in the higher resistance to malaria of Fulani, and confirms a low, if any, Caucasoid component in their gene pool.
 
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
 
Energy

What you fail to understand is that no matter what Fulani "Look" like, They are almost the most "West" African ethnic group in West Africa.

For instances, The Nigerian Fulani have E3a at 100%.

Don't be fooled into thinking you can tell where a person is from simply by looking at the person.

Australians, Papa New Guineans look like africans, yet they are the farthest from Africans.

Greeks do not look like Africans yet they have E3b at over 25%.

Zarahan is just showing you the FACTS.

Peace
 
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
 
Energy

As you can see from this study and from the first MAP Table 1 on the page, Fulani in Niger have E3a at 71% and the Fulani in Nigeria have it at 100%.

Phylogeographic Analysis of Haplogroup E3b (E-M215) Y Chromosomes Reveals Multiple Migratory Events Within and Out Of Africa
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1181964


The case is closed. Fulani are West Africans not East Africans no matter how people dream of being from the East, Fulani are from the West.

Peace
 
Posted by Energy (Member # 16438) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by zarahan:
There is no need to pretend. No one is being fooled. I just gave you a reference. Here it is again:

Tissue Antigens. 2001 Feb;57(2):128-37. Links
HLA class I in three West African ethnic groups: genetic distances from sub-Saharan and Caucasoid populations.Modiano D, Luoni G, Petrarca V, Sodiomon Sirima B, De Luca M, Simporé J, Coluzzi M, Bodmer JG, Modiano G.


"Fulani of Burkina Faso (West Africa) are a particularly interesting ethnic group because of their lower susceptibility to Plasmodium falciparum malaria as compared to sympatric populations, Mossi and Rimaibé. Moreover, the occurrence of a Caucasoid component in their genetic make-up has been suggested on the basis of their physical traits and cultural traditions even though this view was not supported by genetic studies... Our study does not suggest the involvement of HLA I in the higher resistance to malaria of Fulani, and confirms a low, if any, Caucasoid component in their gene pool.

LOL! In other words you can't back up what you said huh?

If you have the information, just cut and paste it, it is that simple. Alternatively, if its in a book, you scan the relevant info onto you computer and link to it. Why would you direct someone to a link when you can simply cut, paste and highlight the relevant points? By directing me to a link you just admitted you have NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT!

To illustrate the point, when I wanted to show how diverse the looks of the Fulani are, I got a video of images of Fulani people to prove it.
So If you wanna tell me, quote; "the Fulani, genes cluster ONLY with West African groups. End of story." You need to prove that claim. Alternatively you can admit you made a mistake and we would leave it at that.


PS. I hope you noticed that the linked information you posted about the Fulani of Burkina Faso already shoots your claim into shreds. I mean, how can the genes of the Fulani only cluster with West Africans and have a Caucasoid (European) component at the same time?
 
Posted by Energy (Member # 16438) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by KING:
Energy

What you fail to understand is that no matter what Fulani "Look" like, They are almost the most "West" African ethnic group in West Africa.

For instances, The Nigerian Fulani have E3a at 100%.

What relevance has E3a got to do with who the Fulani are and how far spread afield they are in Africa? Unless you wanna say only the Fulani carry E3a and no one else does. That would be absurd.

Those Genetic markers are only relevant when you are talking to non-Africans, for example, Eurocentrics and white people and want to prove to them ancient Egyptians were black but the same information becomes completely USELESS when talking to continental Africans like me who have no need to prove my identity.

quote:

Don't be fooled into thinking you can tell where a person is from simply by looking at the person.

CORRECT! Please tell that to alTakruri and not me. The trend this debate has taken is because alTakruri limited the Fulani people to Negroes with nappy hair. This is completely false and what I am doing is show how wrong he is.

alTakruri would fool others with what he said but I was born and bred in West Africa, so I know how we look and how diverse we are. What alTakruri said about the Fulani is completely false and misleading. We have Fulani in Africa that look Negro, but at the same time, we have Fulani in Africa that have Arab features as well as we have Fulani that have Somali/Ethiopian features. Therefore to tell a continental African like me, that Fulani is only limited to Negroes in West Africa is utterly preposterous!

quote:

Greeks do not look like Africans yet they have E3b at over 25%.

KING, this is a huge subject of discussion on its own. We have tradition and cultural beliefs in West Africa that agree with those of Greece, so I can assure you it is not only the genetic marker but our beliefs do go hand in hand as well.

If you care to start a thread on this subject, I would be happy to discuss it with you. However, this discussion is about Fulani origins in ancient Egypt so a discussion on the link between Greeks and Africans would be wasted on this thread.


quote:

Zarahan is just showing you the FACTS.

WRONG! I have asked Zarahan to substantiate his claims whereby he limits the Fulani to West Africa. This claim of his, flies in the face of the evidence on the ground. The Fualni occupy more than 17 countries in Africa, and some of these countries lie outside West Africa, so for someone to limit Fulani to West Africa and nowhere else, that person has to prove how they came to such a conclusion that disagrees with the geographical information. So far Zarahan is struggling, and I am completely confident at the end of the day, he would fail miserably.
 
Posted by Energy (Member # 16438) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by KING:
Energy

As you can see from this study and from the first MAP Table 1 on the page, Fulani in Niger have E3a at 71% and the Fulani in Nigeria have it at 100%.

Phylogeographic Analysis of Haplogroup E3b (E-M215) Y Chromosomes Reveals Multiple Migratory Events Within and Out Of Africa
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1181964


The case is closed. Fulani are West Africans not East Africans no matter how people dream of being from the East, Fulani are from the West.

Peace

KING you really need to read your own link and get the facts right before directing people to it. As it is, your own source says, 'you are mistaken.' Below is information I culled from your own link.

From your own source it says and I quote; "Several observations point to eastern Africa as the homeland for haplogroup E3b" Now where does that leave your bold claim that the Fulani are E3b and it originates in West Africa? Your own source says EAST AFRICA and not West Africa.

The following is more from your own source.
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1181964

-------------------------------------------------
On the basis of the previously published phylogeny (Y Chromosome Consortium 2002; Jobling and Tyler-Smith 2003), the mutations M2/P1/M180, on the one hand, and M35/M215, on the other, further subdivide E3 in two monophyletic haplogroups: E3a and E3b. Both haplogroups are frequent in Africa (Underhill et al. 2000; Cruciani et al. 2002), although, to date, only E3b has also been observed in Europe.

The three main subclades of haplogroup E3b (E-M78, E-M81, and E-M34) and the paragroup E-M35* ARE NOT homogeneously distributed on the African continent: E-M78

Several observations point to eastern Africa as the homeland for haplogroup E3b—that is, it had (1) the highest number of different E3b clades

 
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
 
Energy

What you should of got from the study is NOT about E3b.

It's about E3a. E3a is mostly regarded as a West African genetic marker and that is what Fulanis in All countries they are a part of have.

I apologize if you may have mistaken my post as saying that Fulanis have E3b. They have barely any E3b which would of linked them to of been from East Africa.

Let me try and clear things up for you.

Most Africans belong to the PN2 clade of hap groups in Africa. The main lineages in this group are E1b1a(E3a) and E1b1b(E3b). E3b is regarded as an East African marker since that is where it has the highest percentage. This lineage is how we can know people like the Tuareg, who live in West Africa, are really originally from the East. E3a is how we know that the Fualanis, who regardeless of how they "look" have there origin in the West. Why I posted the study for you is so you can see just how high the percentage that the Fulanis have E3a at compared to other west Africans. Now since it seems you may have a hard time understanding the Table I told you to go check out I will post the stats you should take care of knowing:

West Africans E3a%:

Mandenka from Senegal 93.8
Songhai from Niger 80.0
Tuareg from Niger 63.6
Fulbe from Niger 71.4
Fulbe from Nigeria 100.0
Hausa from Nigeria 40.0
Yoruba from Nigeria 90.5

As we can see from this grouping, The Fulanis have E3a at a higher percent then the other groups in West Africa.

So no matter how "Arab" a fulanis looks, They have no Origins in East Africa. I understand where you are coming from when you state that Fulanis are found in countries in East Africa. BUT even these fulanis have markers that link them to groups in West Africa. The only west African group with origins in the East are really only the Tuareg.

Peace
 
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
This trying to get my hands around this . . .logic.

E3a is found as much as 40% in East and north east Africa. So why limit it as an West African marker. Yeah, it looks like most West Africans are E3a but a substantial amount of East and North East Africans are also. . . .E3a.

In addition E3a ORIGINATED in East Africa.

It is logical to assume that East Africans . . including AE, carry E3a.

Has ANY markers been IDed in AE????

E3a and E3b have been co-existing in East Africa since the mutation . . .what. . .20kya.

What evidence is there that E3a is NOT found in AE?

As result why rule out the Fulanis or any other indigenous Africans from AE. Even hg-A is found as much as 30% in Sudan.

And you can't get more African than that(hg-A)


quote:
Originally posted by KING:
Energy

Fulani in Niger have E3a at 71% and the Fulani in Nigeria have it at 100%.

.BUT even these fulanis have markers that link them to groups in West Africa. - THIS DOESN"T MAKE SENSE!!! DID THEY MIGRATE EAST.


The case is closed. . . . , Fulani are from the West. - MORE BS BY KING??

Peace

I posed this question to Rasol one time. . . do we know the migration patterns of Ancient Africans??
 
Posted by Asar Imhotep (Member # 14487) on :
 
This logic doesn't hold up in regards to known historical possibilities. If the Bantu speaking people "started" in Cameroon/Nigeria, yet the majority of Bantu speakers are in central, south and east Africa. By King's logic, because the Bantus have the highest number of speakers in Central, East and South East Africa, that that is where they originated from and have no ties to Cameroon/Nigeria.

Fulani is a federation of people who now speak the same language. All large groups of people are really just confederations. This is a practice all across the continent that people fail to recognize. When Tshaka Zulu was building his empire, anyone who wanted to be Zulu was Zulu. This is how a small group of people who migrated from the Sudan became the dominant cultural group in South Africa.

It would be no different for Fulani or Yoruba. They are all a breed of various African groups who decided to come together and be Fulani and Yoruba respectively. This is the case with the Ancient Egyptians. To tell you the truth, there was no such thing as an Egyptian ethnic group. The political state encompassed many many different ethnic groups who retained their respective cultures throughout the political period.

So what you may have here with the Fulani is the same thing that happened to the Zulu which explains the diversity in phenotypes among the Fulani: they are actually different people who by confederacy speak the same language.
 
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
 
xyyman


There is more to Africa then AE.

Yes some groups in west Africa may have come from the East of Africa like the Tuareg, but I don't think trying to make out like ALL or even most West Africans have there Origins in AE is something that should be championed.

Also as for e3a, Most of that probably comes from the Bantu migration.

As for E3a being found in AE....Probably. But we have to wait until they decide to show us just what markers the AE had.

Peace
 
Posted by Shady Aftermath (Member # 14754) on :
 
@Asar

That perspective (confederations) is very enlightening, and of course most realistic.
 
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
 
Asar Imhotep

How do you explain that most Fulanis have E3a and no matter how they look they are all linked together.

I found this thread that may be of some interest to anyone learning about Fulanis origins:

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=006432

Peace
 
Posted by Asar Imhotep (Member # 14487) on :
 
You're missing my point. "Most" Fulani's may be "West" Africans, but it could possibly be that a small influential band came from the East and created "Fulani." If ALL Fulani were characterized by E3a then that's different, but by your own words you said "most" and most isn't ALL.

I brought up the Zulus as a case in point because all those who are Zulus "technically" aren't Zulus. They NOW speak the same language but that was a result of conquest. The original Zulu were a small group of individuals whose origins was in the Nile Valley and Sudan. They are NOW the dominant group in South Africa but all of the current Zulus are not really Zulus: they were incorporated into the Zulus.

This is why SOY Keita always stresses that DNA tells you little and people put too much weight on DNA.

The Yoruba are all not "Yoruba." They are from various parts of West and Central Soudan. Some come from the actual Sudan. Some come from Egypt and had ancestors in Greece. I have posted on this forum before research that proves Niger-Congo speakers were in Ancient Greece and that the Igbo in particular were in ancient Ireland and Greece as the Linear A writing is based off the Ogem script which can only be read in Igbo.

This is why Energy states that they have affinities with ancient Greek culture because they were in ancient Greece, as well as the Nile Valley. Some else also posted a scientific article stating a large percentage of Greeks have Sub Saharan genes. You can't dismissed these things and will have to reconcile it somehow.

I don't argue ALL West Africans come out of the Nile Valley between 3000 BCE and the present. I argue SOME have and we can clearly demonstrate non accidental relationships between West Africans and AE; including the Fulani. So I think we have to expand our research areas and not solely rely on genetics when geneticists inform us that dna actually tells us very little in regards to the whole story.
 
Posted by Shady Aftermath (Member # 14754) on :
 
Point taken. The founding fathers of any nation are likely to be and remain its elites unless somehow usurped.

quote:
Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:

This is why Energy states that they have affinities with ancient Greek culture because they were in ancient Greece, as well as the Nile Valley. Some else also posted a scientific article stating a large percentage of Greeks have Sub Saharan genes. You can't dismissed these things and will have to reconcile it somehow.


More research needs to be done here. I certainly haven't seen any concrete evidence of this, save for cultural similarities with Egypt.

I am personally convinced that those who founded the civilisation of AE are of the same "ilk" (not talking about genes but worldview) that founded the Yoruba civilisation.
 
Posted by Asar Imhotep (Member # 14487) on :
 
It's one thing to say cultural "similarities" between cultures: hair style, dress, concept of God, etc. But it is a totally different thing when Linear A can be read with Niger-Congo words and Linear A matches exactly the ancient Igbo script we now call Ogem. It's a totally different thing when you have "sub-saharan" Genes in a large percentage in Greek populations. These aren't "similarities," these are exactitudes and cannot be explained away by "chance similarity."

You cannot by way of osmosis create a writing script that can be read by Niger-Congo speakers. That's impossible. With this evidence you have to concede that what we call West Africans not only had a footing in the NIle Valley but in ancient Greece.

home.clear.net.nz/pages/gc_dunn/
 
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
 
Reality check; the original posting...

quote:
Originally posted by Wally:
Ancient Egypt, like all other great African civilizations, was not the sole creation of a single ethnic group, but rather a collective collaboration of many African peoples, held together by a central government; at times ethnic tensions would plunge the nation into chaos, on other occasions, chaos would be due to other social tensions. Yet it remains the longest historical civilization in human history.

But the history of civilizations is always told as the history of its ruling class or its founders; in Ancient Egypt we have the Anu and later the Mesnitu ruling class obscuring the reality that Ancient Egypt was no different in its ethnic composition than modern Nigeria or Ethiopia, except perhaps with a greater sense of identity as a nationality.

Asiatic myths trumps African reality

It is a given that peoples emigrate from their homelands for a myriad of reasons. Emigrations out of historic Egypt into Asia, based almost entirely on biblical mythology, are readily accepted as historical fact - The Hebrews were enslaved in Egypt for four hundred years, were led out of there by this guy with an Egyptian name, who had a magical stick that parted the "Red" Sea...

On the reality side, of Africans emigrating from historic Egypt back into Africa, based upon tons of historical, cultural, linguistic, ad infinitum, evidence; this natural phenomena becomes "controversial"

Now look at the following quote, one that places the origin of the Fulani safely in the 'upper Nile region,' which ignores the historical reality that the Fulani were Egyptian nationals prior to their emigration into the upper Nile region,

quote:

Fulani history
Some historians believe the Fulani emerged from a prehistoric pastoral group that originated in the upper Nile region around 3500 B.C. As the climate of the Sahara grew increasingly harsh, population pressures drove them to migrate slowly west and south in search of better grazing lands. By the eleventh century the Fulani emerged as a distinct people group in the Sénégambia Valley. Over the next 400 years they journeyed back east, but south of the Sahara, which had become an inhospitable desert.
Traditionally most Fulani are shepherds or cattle herders, but over time some settled down and, by the nineteenth century, had established a series of kingdoms between Sénégal and Cameroon. The Fulani have myths about how the nomads and settled rulers emerged...

...for starters here's some linguistic data comparing Fulani / Mdu Ntr...

I - mi / mi (update)
you - on / un
we - en / un
they - be / bu (people)
to be bad - bonude / boone
bad - boni / bon
death; to die - maayde;maayude / maati, moute, moout, mouti
last year - rawanen / snouf; ronpe
eye - yitere / eirti
blessing - barka / baraka
cow - nagge / naga
father - baaba / baba
...
the evidence is inexhaustible...


 
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Please don't try to compund the discussion. I want to maintain respect for you.

The topic is the "Egyptian Origin of the Fulani". I am NOT saying that ALL African groups should lay claim to AE.. . . but maybe they should.

But my point is simple. E3a STARTED in East Africa. And they still make up at least 25% of East Africans. You are saying that since the Fulanis are E3a they cannot be East African in origin. Do you see how idiotic that logic is?

I am not saying the Fulanis orginated from AE. I don't know enough about the migration patterns, culture or history of ALL Africans of old.

But looking at the genetics and geographic data I wouldn't rule it out.

I don't want to go the route of Argie - but I always feel uncomfortable with non-Africans defending Africans. But have an appreciation for what you have contributed and the "sort of" objective ways you have paticupated in these discussions.

And you do know a lot more than me about my ancestors.


quote:
Originally posted by KING:
xyyman


There is more to Africa then AE.

Yes some groups in west Africa may have come from the East of Africa like the Tuareg, but I don't think trying to make out like ALL or even most West Africans have there Origins in AE is something that should be championed.

Also as for e3a, Most of that probably comes from the Bantu migration.

As for E3a being found in AE....Probably. But we have to wait until they decide to show us just what markers the AE had.

Peace


 
Posted by Energy (Member # 16438) on :
 
For all those who want to depend on genetics to rule Fulani out of ancient Egypt, please consider the following points.

1, The Fulani as already stated are in more than 19 countries in Africa and some of these countries lie outside West Africa. The home of the Fulani is West Africa but they are also found in East and central Africa as well.

2. The Fualni were the movers and shakers in all the great civilization in Africa after ancient Egypt, notably the Ghana Empire, the Songhai Empire and the Mali Empire. The great learning centre of Timbuckto was their baby.

3. You may have heard of Arabs trading Negroes as slaves long before the white man set foot in Africa. The truth is it was the Fulani and not the Arabs. Fulani are Arabs when it suits them.

4. When it was time to spread Islam from West Africa all the way to parts of East Africa, the driving force was Fulani and not Arab.

5. When it was time to ship millions of Negroes across the Atlantic into slavery in the Americas the driving force was again the Fulani. Ever heard of the Fulani jihad? Many haven't but if ever you wanted to know where all the slaves came from, the answer is to learn about the Fualni jihad and how it destabilized West Africa.

6. Today through the Sultan of Sokoto, (Fulani Empire) the Fulani have jurisdiction over
-----------------------------------------------------

If you look at the far reaching influence the Fulani have had in shaping West Africa all the way to the Sudan, you might begin to appreciate the meaning behind the statement they are in 19 countries in Africa form East to West. With this amount of presence alone, it would be ludicrous to rely on genetic markers and say other Africans were migrants in ancient Egypt but the Fulani were absent. What exactly were the borders of ancient Egypt? This question needs answered because the Egypt we have now is how the white man divided up Africa in 1844. The borders of modern Egypt are not the same as the geographical area of ancient Egypt. If the borders of ancient Egypt extended further south beyond modern Egypt, then ancient Egypt would have extended into known Fulani territory and thus place the Fualni in ancient Egypt. Personally I believe the borders of ancient Egypt extended all the way into the Sudan and West Africa and the Fulani were the key players of the ancient Egyptian Empire.

Looking at the evidence, the Fulani alongside the Akans, were not only present in ancient Egypt but were actually the ancient Egyptians.

I welcome all dissenting views. Let's hear the argument to the contrary.
 
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Listen up brotha. This is the 21st Century. we/man, really Europeans, have mapped the human genome. Valueable information has and can be obtained from it.

We know ALL man came from Africans
Euroepans are a sub-set of Africans
We know the genetic markers of different ethnics groups throughout the world.

WE DO NOT HAVE TO RELY ON "PICTURES" ANYMORE. Pic spamming is par se.. . ie old school.

We know now that Europeans markers never entered Africa until recently. In fact it was the other way around. Africans entering Europe.

etc . . . etc . . . etc

MAKE USE OF THE KNOWLEDGE AND DATA OUT THERE. . . .PLEASE!!!

Agreed genetics tells part of the story. But It is really valueable

regards
Diasporean
 
Posted by Energy (Member # 16438) on :
 
xyyman the white man as you said mapped out the human genome but he has NEVER used it to tell his own history and from all indications has no desire to go down that road. Neither has any human race, yet you wanna use gene mapping to tell the black man's history?

Not a clever move brotha, not clever at all.
 
Posted by Shady Aftermath (Member # 14754) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
It's one thing to say cultural "similarities" between cultures: hair style, dress, concept of God, etc. But it is a totally different thing when Linear A can be read with Niger-Congo words and Linear A matches exactly the ancient Igbo script we now call Ogem. It's a totally different thing when you have "sub-saharan" Genes in a large percentage in Greek populations. These aren't "similarities," these are exactitudes and cannot be explained away by "chance similarity."

You cannot by way of osmosis create a writing script that can be read by Niger-Congo speakers. That's impossible. With this evidence you have to concede that what we call West Africans not only had a footing in the NIle Valley but in ancient Greece.

home.clear.net.nz/pages/gc_dunn/


 
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
I said to tell "part" of the story. I said this to Rasol sometime ago. Doe she know the migration pattern of Ancient Africans"

THAT will help tell the whole story.


Despite the illogical premise from King. Fulanis may well be descendents of AE. After all iiregardless of their “looks”. There carry East African markers ie E3a. And from what Shady is saying below along with Wally and others, Fulani’s share vastly similar cultural traits to AE.


quote:
Originally posted by Energy:

xyyman the white man as you said mapped out the human genome but he has NEVER used it to tell his own history and from all indications has no desire to go down that road. Neither has any human race, yet you wanna use gene mapping to tell the black man's history?

Not a clever move brotha, not clever at all.


 
Posted by Energy (Member # 16438) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Shady Aftermath:
Point taken. The founding fathers of any nation are likely to be and remain its elites unless somehow usurped.

quote:
Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:

This is why Energy states that they have affinities with ancient Greek culture because they were in ancient Greece, as well as the Nile Valley. Some else also posted a scientific article stating a large percentage of Greeks have Sub Saharan genes. You can't dismissed these things and will have to reconcile it somehow.


More research needs to be done here. I certainly haven't seen any concrete evidence of this, save for cultural similarities with Egypt.

I am personally convinced that those who founded the civilisation of AE are of the same "ilk" (not talking about genes but worldview) that founded the Yoruba civilisation.

Shady Aftermath you wanna see some similar culture of Africans and people far away in India? You know Clyde Winters tends to talk about Dravidian in South India having a lot in common with people in West Africa. Guess what? He is right.

Look at the following videos. Just close your eyes and listen to these Hausa Fulani sing their local folk songs. You would think you are listening to Indians but in truth this is pure West African Hausa-Fulani.

The following is Hausa-Fulani at play. NOTE! Let me stress this again. This is NOT India music nor is it a copy of India music style. This is how these Hausa-Fulani people sing their folk songs NATURALLY.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fU92iB8FD4&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRlLrJGDRlI&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIkKNEp8Mjg&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFpkV8yI-E0&feature=related
 
Posted by Asar Imhotep (Member # 14487) on :
 
Have you all ever stop to think that Fulani may be from West Africa and in ancient times migrated to Egypt and for various reasons were forced to back-migrate across the Soudan?

People keep forgetting that a lot of the West Africans used to live in what is now the Sahara. When it started drying they were forced to migrate. Some moved south. Some moved west and others went east.

The problem with people trying to study history is they over simplify the nature of human existence. They forgot about the complexity and the diverse ways things can happen. We assume that ALL the Fulani need to be from AE in order to claim roots there and that is not the case.

Take for instance what happened in Katrina. Due to the hurricane many people migrated to Texas. Others migrated to North Carolina and as far away as California. But what people fail to realize is that some of these people migrated from these regions to New Orleans.

Not everyone in New Orleans, LA is from Louisiana. They are not one single organism migrating like schools of fish. We can say the same for the Fulani or the Hausa or the Yoruba or Songye or Mbochi people of Africa. The problem here is over simplification.
 
Posted by Energy (Member # 16438) on :
 
The thing is, the ancient Egyptians do clearly identify themselves as to who they are. They do so in the Egyptian book of the dead and the people they claim to be are in West Africa. Why this is ignored I have no idea.

My premise is what they claim to be is being ignored because because self-serving scientists and historians want to go with genetics and because the gene mapping does not agree with what the dead is saying, they ignore it.

Well, another approach is to look for the Hebrews in Africa because once you find the Hebrews you would find the ancient Egyptians close by. This is because, the historical account in the Bible makes it very clear that when ancient Israel was attacked by the Babylonians, the Hebrews fled their homeland and took refuge with the ancient Egyptians. They never returned to Israel. They stayed in Africa up to this day. The people the Hebrews live with in Africa are again in West Africa, namely the Akan and the Fulani.
 
Posted by yql718 (Member # 16646) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
Have you all ever stop to think that Fulani may be from West Africa and in ancient times migrated to Egypt and for various reasons were forced to back-migrate across the Soudan?

Has this ever been mentioned by Diop or any of the others as to Fulani?
 
Posted by zarahan (Member # 15718) on :
 
Originally posted by Energy:
If you have the information, just cut and paste it, it is that simple. Alternatively, if its in a book, you scan the relevant info onto you computer and link to it. Why would you direct someone to a link when you can simply cut, paste and highlight the relevant points? By directing me to a link you just admitted you have NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT!

To illustrate the point, when I wanted to show how diverse the looks of the Fulani are, I got a video of images of Fulani people to prove it.


Two scientific studies given you show that the Fulani are primarily West African. You have failed to refute either one with credible research. Anyone can claim anything in some video. We again ask, where is your credible research evidence that the Fulani are not primarily West African? After 4-5 posts on the topic you have beat around the bush and failed to produce anything credible. Still waiting..


WRONG! I have asked Zarahan to substantiate his claims whereby he limits the Fulani to West Africa.

lol.. this is a bogus red herring, and you are obviously now trying to wriggle out of your failure to provide credible evidence. I did not "limit the Fulani to West Africa." i said- quote: "As for the Fulani, most of their genes cluster with West African groups. End of story." Trying to wriggle out of your failure with strawman arguments and bogus attribution of statements supposedly made wont work. Two studies showing the Fulani group primarily with West africans genetically have been presented. We again ask you to produce credible evidence to the contrary.


I mean, how can the genes of the Fulani only cluster with West Africans and have a Caucasoid (European) component at the same time?

Again you openly distort and misrepresent. I again quote what I wrote: "As for the Fulani, most of their genes cluster with West African groups. End of story." Do you see anything in there about Fulani "only" clustering with West Africans? King's data also shows high clustering rates - quote: "Fulani in Niger have E3a at 71% and the Fulani in Nigeria have it at 100%." Again, it is clear that most Fulani cluster with West Africans- in some areas it is virtually 100% - in others about 70% but still an overwhelming percentage. Do you see anything in there about "only" clustering with West africans?


What relevance has E3a got to do with who the Fulani are and how far spread afield they are in Africa?

As King has shown with his reference, most Fulani group with E3a carriers. E3a is primarily found in West Africa. You would know this if you understood what you were talking about. Here is King's reference again.
Phylogeographic Analysis of Haplogroup E3b (E-M215) Y Chromosomes Reveals Multiple Migratory Events Within and Out Of Africa
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1181964


Unless you wanna say only the Fulani carry E3a and no one else does. That would be absurd. Those Genetic markers are only relevant when you are talking to non-Africans, for example, Eurocentrics and white people and want to prove to them ancient Egyptians were black but the same information becomes completely USELESS when talking to continental Africans like me who have no need to prove my identity.

lol.. Research on E3a has nothing to do with "proving the Egyptians were black." It is simply the primary patterning of the data in question among West Africans. It is again obvious that you do not know what you are talking about, and whether or not you are allegedly "continential African" does not have the slightest bearing on the matter at hand.


Now where does that leave your bold claim that the Fulani are E3b and it originates in West Africa? Your own source says EAST AFRICA and not West Africa.

You are obviously trading again in bogus red herrings. Here you attribute yet again a false claim to King. King did not say Fulani were E3b, but referred to E3a. He gave you specifically a study that showed their grouping with E3a carriers. Yet you make a knowingly false claim. No one is being fooled.


Ahmad obviously you did not read the information at the link provided by BrandonP. The evidence there is not based on pictures and statutes as you claim. Try to be an honest debater.

You should follow your own advice about "honesty" for with both me and King you openly lie about what we said.


Your pattern of distortion can also be seen in other threads where you claim:

The Bible does confirm that the Assyrians and Babylonians ethnically cleansed ancient Egypt and supplanted new people in the land.

It shows nothing of the sort. Here again you do not know what you are talking about or are engaging in yet another gross exaggeration and distortion. Egypt was not "ethnically cleansed" by Assyria or Babylonia in the Bible. Can you back up your claim about this alleged "ethnic cleansing' on Egypt in the Bible? Don't think you will escape by quoting Isaiah. Isaiah notes conflict between Assyria and Egypt and the taking of captives. This is routine warfare 101. It does not record any "ethnic cleansing" or depopulation of Egypt, nor does it record any removal of the population of all Egypt or even the "cleansing" of half of Egypt in favor of "new people." Your notion is nonsense. But let's give you a change to come clean. We ask you to back up your claim that the Bible shows that the "Assyrians and Babylonians ethnically cleansed ancient Egypt and supplanted new people in the land.." Still waiting...
 
Posted by Energy (Member # 16438) on :
 
You mean you spend all about half an hour to tell me what I know first hand as an African? I don't need genetics to tell me that most Fulani are in West Africa. Its you who failed to read and comprehend simple English that says the Fulani are in 17 different countries spreading from West Africa, central Africa to the Sudan in East Africa. If you had acknowledged that Fulani are in West, central and East Africa you would not have heard a peep from me. As it is, you just limited the fulani to West Africa and that my friend is a BIG LIE and you had to be corrected.
 
Posted by zarahan (Member # 15718) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Energy:
The thing is, the ancient Egyptians do clearly identify themselves as to who they are. They do so in the Egyptian book of the dead and the people they claim to be are in West Africa. Why this is ignored I have no idea.

My premise is what they claim to be is being ignored because because self-serving scientists and historians want to go with genetics and because the gene mapping does not agree with what the dead is saying, they ignore it.

Well, another approach is to look for the Hebrews in Africa because once you find the Hebrews you would find the ancient Egyptians close by. This is because, the historical account in the Bible makes it very clear that when ancient Israel was attacked by the Babylonians, the Hebrews fled their homeland and took refuge with the ancient Egyptians. They never returned to Israel. They stayed in Africa up to this day. The people the Hebrews live with in Africa are again in West Africa, namely the Akan and the Fulani.

Where in the Bible does it say that the ancient Hebrews never returned to Israel, or that the entire population moved to Egypt when attacked by Babylon? This is one crazy claim.
 
Posted by Energy (Member # 16438) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by zarahan:

The Bible does confirm that the Assyrians and Babylonians ethnically cleansed ancient Egypt and supplanted new people in the land.

It shows nothing of the sort. Here again you do not know what you are talking about or are engaging in yet another gross exaggeration and distortion. Egypt was not "ethnically cleansed" by Assyria or Babylonia in the Bible. Can you back up your claim about this alleged "ethnic cleansing' on Egypt in the Bible? Don't think you will escape by quoting Isaiah. Isaiah notes conflict between Assyria and Egypt and the taking of captives. This is routine warfare 101. It does not record any "ethnic cleansing" or depopulation of Egypt, nor does it record any removal of the population of all Egypt or even the "cleansing" of half of Egypt in favor of "new people." Your notion is nonsense. But let's give you a change to come clean. We ask you to back up your claim that the Bible shows that the "Assyrians and Babylonians ethnically cleansed ancient Egypt and supplanted new people in the land.." Still waiting...

Don't cluster everything together from all over the place in one posting. Start a new thread on this and I would be happy to debate the issue with you.
 
Posted by zarahan (Member # 15718) on :
 
^^
No, you made the claim, and you also mention the ancient Hebrews again in this thread. Again we ask:

(1) that you back up your claim that the Bible shows that the "Assyrians and Babylonians ethnically cleansed ancient Egypt and supplanted new people in the land.."

(2) that you back up your claim saying: "the Bible makes it very clear that when ancient Israel was attacked by the Babylonians, the Hebrews fled their homeland and took refuge with the ancient Egyptians. They never returned to Israel. They stayed in Africa up to this day."

Still waiting...
 
Posted by Energy (Member # 16438) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by zarahan:
Where in the Bible does it say that the ancient Hebrews never returned to Israel, or that the entire population moved to Egypt? This is one crazy claim.

It says so in the book of Jeremiah chapters 42 and 43. Also 2 Kings chapter 25.

Obviously you are IGNORANT of what is in the Bible yet you label what you have no knowledge about as, 'crazy?' Whew!
 
Posted by Energy (Member # 16438) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by zarahan:
^^
No, you made the claim, and you also mention the ancient Hebrews again in this thread. Again we ask:

(1) that you back up your claim that the Bible shows that the "Assyrians and Babylonians ethnically cleansed ancient Egypt and supplanted new people in the land.."

(2) that you back up your claim saying: "the Bible makes it very clear that when ancient Israel was attacked by the Babylonians, the Hebrews fled their homeland and took refuge with the ancient Egyptians. They never returned to Israel. They stayed in Africa up to this day."

Still waiting...

Who is "WE?" Learn to speak for yourself Zarazan and not for everyone.

I made that statement in another thread. If you had a problem with it you should have mentioned it then and not bring it up here where it has no relevance to this discussion.

Alternatively you can always start a new thread on the topic and I would be happy to discuss it with you.
 
Posted by Asar Imhotep (Member # 14487) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by yql718:
quote:
Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
Have you all ever stop to think that Fulani may be from West Africa and in ancient times migrated to Egypt and for various reasons were forced to back-migrate across the Soudan?

Has this ever been mentioned by Diop or any of the others as to Fulani?
I didn't say it was fact. I proposed it as a possibility given the fact that we know people populated the Sahara and due to desertification were forced to migrate. There are numerous studies that confirm this. I bring up the question, is it possible that the "proto" Fulani (in part) were in the ancient Sahara and a portion of them went into Egypt while a good majority stayed in central and west Africa? This would be more realistic than to think for a second that a nomatic people only stayed in west Africa in ancient times.

Remember, Mansa Musa left from far west Africa to visit Mecca in more historically recent times. Are we to believe that other west Africans couldn't have made this trip?

There is an article written for the Ankh Journal that speaks on Fulani and Egyptian similarities that we can't say is chance. I need to find it and post the link. If you can't read French than you can still peep the pictures.
 
Posted by Energy (Member # 16438) on :
 
Listen zarahan, you sound like someone with a bruised ego. Get a grip of yourself. Calm down, and start this thread about the sacking of ancient Egypt by invaders and I promise to discuss it fully with you. OK!
 
Posted by zarahan (Member # 15718) on :
 
^^Yoiu still havent backed up your claims.

CLAIM 1:- failure.
(1) that you back up your claim that the Bible shows that the "Assyrians and Babylonians ethnically cleansed ancient Egypt and supplanted new people in the land.."

CLAIM 2- failure.
(2) that you back up your claim saying: "the Bible makes it very clear that when ancient Israel was attacked by the Babylonians, the Hebrews fled their homeland and took refuge with the ancient Egyptians. They never returned to Israel. They stayed in Africa up to this day."

Your Jeremiah and Kings reference do say the remnant of Judah moved to Egypt but this is a remnant of one tribe- Judah, not all Hebrews as a whole. And where does it say that Hebrews never returned to the land as you asserted? In fact, Israel as such did return to their land a number of years after Jeremiah. Quote Jeremiah 43: "but Johanan the son of Kareah, and all the captains of the forces, took all the remnant of Judah.." So your claim is still unsubstantiated.

Indeed, you now make a 3rd claim: that the Hebrews in Egypt became the Fulani of West Africa. And you also say these Hebrews became the Akan of West Africa too?

Friend, you have some heavy lifting to do to prove these claims.
 
Posted by Energy (Member # 16438) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by zarahan:
^^Yoiu still havent backed up your claims.

CLAIM 1:- failure.
(1) that you back up your claim that the Bible shows that the "Assyrians and Babylonians ethnically cleansed ancient Egypt and supplanted new people in the land.."

CLAIM 2- failure.
(2) that you back up your claim saying: "the Bible makes it very clear that when ancient Israel was attacked by the Babylonians, the Hebrews fled their homeland and took refuge with the ancient Egyptians. They never returned to Israel. They stayed in Africa up to this day."

Your Jeremiah and Kings reference do say the remnant of Judah moved to Egypt but this is a remnant of one tribe- Judah, not all Hebrews as a whole. And where does it say that Hebrews never returned to the land as you asserted? In fact, Israel as such did return to their land a number of years after Jeremiah. Quote Jeremiah 43: "but Johanan the son of Kareah, and all the captains of the forces, took all the remnant of Judah.." So your claim is still unsubstantiated.

Indeed, you now make a 3rd claim: that the Hebrews in Egypt became the Fulani of West Africa. And you also say these Hebrews became the Akan of West Africa too?

Friend, you have some heavy lifting to do to prove these claims.

Oh please, you obviously need more time to comprehend what you are reading from the Bible.

Let me make it easy for you.

First of all Israel was twelve tribes. Then they broke into two. One part was the ten tribe Kingdom and the other half which was the two tribe was called the house of Judah or Jews.

After the war with the Assyrians which the ten tribe kingdom lost, the Assyrians took the remnant of the ten tribe into exile. They are the ones usually referred to as the lost tribes. After they took the ten tribe into exile, the Assyrians populated the land with new people.

Later on the two tribe also went to war with Babylon and lost. It is the remnant of the two tribe aka the Jews that fled to Africa after the Babylonish invasion.

Meanwhile, members of the two tribe that went into exile in Babylon later returned and rebuilt Israel. After the death of Christ they too went to war with the Roman Empire and lost. They were also taken into exile and new people moved into their land.

I hope this brief summary helped.
quote:


Indeed, you now make a 3rd claim: that the Hebrews in Egypt became the Fulani of West Africa. And you also say these Hebrews became the Akan of West Africa too?

LOL! Where did I say that? Are you sure you are not seeing things? Just cut and paste where I made that claim.
 
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
 
xyyman

I respect what you have to say and I think you know allot more about your ancestors then you give yourself credit for.

Moving on.

If we go by your premise and say that Fulanis carry a east African Marker which is E3a. Then that means there is really no west African markers and ALL West Africans are actually East Africans and no one has there origins in the West.

Let me just add The E3a mutation most likely arose in the central Saharan region, which explains why the East African populations from the Horn of Africa and upwards don’t have as much of this haplotype. That is not to say the E3a haplotype doesn’t occur at a relatively smaller level, but when compared to central, southern and western African regions, studies in the aforementioned regions show less. In fact in Egypt, E3a occurs more in the Upper Egyptian populations than the Northern portion of the country.

Earlier we had a study like this:

"There exists a west-to-east as well as a south-to-north clinal distribution with respect to E3a-M2.


Bamileke and Benin display the highest frequencies of E3a (100% and 95.0%, respectively), Kenya and Tanzania show intermediate values, and Oman (7.4%) and Egypt (2.8%) exhibit relatively low percentages of this subclade.

In sub-Saharan Africa, the east-to-west clinal distribution of E3b-M35 is inverse to that displayed by E3a-M2. The percentage of these M35 haplogroups is 35% in Tanzania and Egypt, whereas it is less than half of that value in Oman and Kenya.
The level of this mutation is very low in the Tutsi and the Hutu samples (less then 3% in both) and drops to zero in the more western populations of Cameroon and Benin…
From the above, as you can see the E3a has the highest frequencies in West African sample of Benin and Central African sample of Bamileke. Whereas the frequency drops as one moves to Northeast Africa. You must however note that, the Northernmost population of Egypt is sampled here, not the southern portions of the country. Nevertheless the M2 still occurs there. This could well be an indicator that earlier migrations to the Nile Valley, to the lowermost Nile region, predated the mutation of the M2. Low frequencies here may have been due to contribution of a later migration to the Northernmost Nile. Within Egypt itself, higher frequencies of E3a occurs in the southern populations than the northern ones. compared to central and western Africa, the frequency is still low in this area.

What must be understood is that E3b is Highest in East Africa and drops in Sub-Saharan West Africa. As you move to Northwest Africa, and indeed North Africa, E3b frequencies are high again.

Lets read what this study states about E3a in East Africa:

“..Kenya is the northern limit of E3a-M2, whereas J-12f2, described as a marker of the Neolithic expansion (Semino et al. 2000), extends southward only as far as Ethiopia…Although the E3a-M2 subclade is prevalent in our East African groups (Tutsi, Hutu, Kenya, and Tanzania) as well, these collections contain several additional Y-chromosomal types and, thus, demonstrate a much higher level of NRY diversity. Therefore, unlike its hegemony in the west, E3a-M2's contribution to the genetic landscape of East Africa was not great enough to completely erase pre-existing Y haplogroups and may have been diluted further by subsequent migratory movements from the north involving other Y chromosomes…When taken in context with previous studies, the current NRY data seem to reflect the linguistic boundaries demarcating southern Kenya as **the northern limit** of the Bantu speakers as they progressed eastward through the Central African corridor and southward along the Swahili coast. Kenya displays an E3a-M2 frequency of 52%, whereas the more northern populations, such as Ethiopia (Underhill et al. 2000; Semino et al. 2002), the Ethiopian Jews (Cruciani et al. 2002), and Sudan (Underhill et al. 2000), are characterized by frequencies close to or at zero.…”

Above quotes are all from a University of Chicago studies

E3a mutation must have occurred in western-central Saharan region, which as a result of the deserting of the area, led to migrations south, to the West African, central and Southern African regions, while others went to the Nile Valley.

And what are we to think of the West African saharan rock art that shows people like the Proto Fulani who lived in that Region around the time of AE

I would say Xyyman that E3a at the most has it's origin in the Central Sahara as do most if not all West Africans. This can account for why we find E3a in Modern Egyptians, and probably why the Benin hapgroup in ancient Egyptian remains.

Also I think you should read this thread to understand a little more about the Saharan Rock Art:

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=006432

Peace
 
Posted by Energy (Member # 16438) on :
 
zarahan it's past midnight here in London. I have to go to bed as I have work to do tomorrow. Thanks for the quick-fire chat. I enjoyed it.

I really want to discuss this other subject about the sacking of ancient Egypt with you so if you are game we can start on it tomorrow. Good night and God bless.
 
Posted by zarahan (Member # 15718) on :
 
I can't really go with your theory of ancient Egypt being ethnically cleansed and the population replaced. Sure I see Egyptian defeats in the historical record, and I see various foreign enemies posting garrison and such in Egypt but nothing as extensive as you claim. But if you have more info, by all means go ahead and post it.

On the Fulani I have no objection to any link with the Nile valley as long as the info is accurate. In the past too often it was claimed that a white influx of some sort made up most of their genes. How they got their small percentage of non-African gene markers is still an open question, but in any event, they are firmly and overwhelming a West African population. Perhaps a case can be made for movement of the Fulani via the Sahara, into both West Africa and the Nile Valley, but they are still West African.

On the Hebrews if as you say, "The people the Hebrews live with in Africa are again in West Africa, namely the Akan and the Fulani" I still think you have heavy lifting to prove that one. But again, if you have more detailed info, by all means it can't hurt to put it out there. It would be ironic if there are Hebrew elements in West Africa, just as they are among the Falasha in Ethiopia, although again, the Falasha group most closely with African groups. Quote:

: “..the Ethiopian Jews acquired their religion without substantial genetic admixture from Middle Eastern peoples and that they can be considered an ethnic group with essentially a continental African genetic composition." (Cruciani, et. al "A Back Migration from Asia to Sub-Saharan Africa)
 
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Indeed, this is just the usual attempt of trying to attribute West African culture achievement to Nile Valley people. They don't realize how insulting they are being to these West African cultures.
 
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
DO WE KNOW THE MIGRATION PATTERN OF ANCIENT AFRICANS???

One can conclude that E3a, carried by the Fulanis, were present in AE during it's inception

from NG --

Between 50,000 and 15,000 years ago the desert area west of the Nile was inhabited sparsely, if at all, due to the region's aridity. During this period a succession of cultures flourished on the banks of the Nile. As rains came in from equatorial Africa in the early Holocene, the desert became less arid, and people moved into the Sahara from all directions. Between 10,000 and 6,000 B.C. archaeological evidence has been interpreted to suggest that the number of people living along the Nile fell. At the same time, in the desert west of the river there is evidence of an increase in population and of pastoral societies that built large stone megaliths and sculptures, developed astronomical knowledge, made the earliest known pottery in Africa, and, likely, domesticated cattle. There are rock paintings of people and animals, sometimes using themes that also appear later in Egypt, along with other aspects of the culture. After the climate again grew more arid after 6000 B.C. there is evidence for migration back into the Nile Valley.


also from ancestry.com:


Haplogroup E3a may have originated in North Africa, and spread south into Sub-Saharan

Africa. In North Africa, it is common among Berbers, Tunisians and Moroccan Arabs.
This

paper, entitled "Origin, Diffusion and Differentiation of Haplogroups E and J: Inferences on the

Neolithization of Europe and Later Migratory Events in The Mediterranean Area", discusses the

origin and spread of the subclade (described here as E-M2).
 
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
@ Energy

you mentioned that the Zulus migrated from the Sudan? That is the first I heard of this. Where did that information come from.

In one paper King posted it mentioned that, I believe it was Coon or some old racist fart, the Zulus and other Southern Africans (Bantus) were as handsome and light as Southern Europeans.

I am just trying to get my hands around the migration patterns of Africans
 
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
@ Zaharan --

I agree pics . . . .or video don't mean jack. . . on their own.

But the only FACT with your premise is. . .


QUOTE from Zaharan:
As for the Fulani, most of their genes cluster with West African groups..

As I said many times. We as black people should always scrutinize the conclusion and inferences from these studies. Let them do the work and we draw our own inferences.

Does cluster= origin?????

As you can from my previous post about the time of the AE inception E3a was moving out of north and east Africa to South and West Africa. That MAY explain some of the cultural links of the Fulanis with AE.


Do we know enough about the migration patterns of Africans.


I am with Argie on this:

What is a West African?????
 
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
That E3a was and is present in the upper Nile Valley is not in dispute. The fact is we not only have E3a but autosomal genetic traits that tie Fulani to other West Africans and not Nile Valley folk! As for the separation of populations between the regions of North Africa and Sub-Sahara, we know this to be invalid since the Sahara did not always exist and North Africa was once fertile. If there is a connection between northeast Africans including those of the Nile Valley and northwest Africans, why can't it be a shared neolithic Saharan origin, instead of saying attributing all these west African groups to Egypt?!
 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Xyyman

 -

Just wanted to be sure you (and others) weren't
taken in by that blanket physical description
they gave of 'the' Fulani phenotype that's been
pushed for decades trying to make Fulani into
some group unlike 'typical' Africans. One could
easily say the same of any ethnic African group,
that they stand out from the other Africans around
them .

Fulani recognize as Fulani any who claim to be so
and can show derivation from or intimate association
with people known as a branch of the parent stock
from centuries ago, especially Futa Toro or old Tekrour,
whether or not they retained pulaaku and/or Fulfulde
(Hausa-Fulani in particular are swiftly losing it as a
mother tongue as are the eastern Takruri.

quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
@ Altk. That was from Encyclopedia Britannica.
They tend to be less bias than NG or other Encyclopedias.

BTW - I assume it is the language AND culture that group these people?


 
Posted by Asar Imhotep (Member # 14487) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
@ Energy

you mentioned that the Zulus migrated from the Sudan? That is the first I heard of this. Where did that information come from.

In one paper King posted it mentioned that, I believe it was Coon or some old racist fart, the Zulus and other Southern Africans (Bantus) were as handsome and light as Southern Europeans.

I am just trying to get my hands around the migration patterns of Africans

You need to read Credo Mutwa's Indaba my Children and also Jordan Ngubane's Conflict of Minds. There are other works in which I need to find it. I will post it when I find it. You might also want to check The Restatement Of Bantu Origin and Meru History. Alfred M M'Imanyara
 
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Got me crossed eyed DJ. What are you saying?

What AUTOSOMAL trait? Haven't read the entire thread but enlighten us. What genetic trait besides the sex haplo-group?

What autosomal trait are localized to West Africa?

I have never been to the continent but from what I read earlier some of these Fulani's can be mistakenly be taken for stereotypical East Africans.

The conclusion. These autosomal features are found both in the EAst and West of the continent.

Correct me????!!!


quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
That E3a was and is present in the upper Nile Valley is not in dispute. The fact is we not only have E3a but autosomal genetic traits that tie Fulani to other West Africans and not Nile Valley folk! As for the separation of populations between the regions of North Africa and Sub-Sahara, we know this to be invalid since the Sahara did not always exist and North Africa was once fertile. If there is a connection between northeast Africans including those of the Nile Valley and northwest Africans, why can't it be a shared neolithic Saharan origin, instead of saying attributing all these west African groups to Egypt?!


 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
For authentic traditional Fulani music, but not some
modern Indian raga fused Hausa Afro-pop, try these:

1 Fulani Girls Singing - 1

2 West Africa Experience -- Fulani Music

3 Gaynaako

** West African Fulbe **
This one starts with Fulani flute and evolves into
an eclectic near trance gumbo of sahel/savannah
vocals, instruments, rhythm and stylings.


And mind you there is modern Hausa-Fulani music
infused with raga stylings but that's just what it is,
a modern fusion.
 
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
 
From Mali, a cinematic look at the various peoples, Bambara, Peul (Fulani), etc. It evokes traditional African religious, cultural, social concepts. This will give you a feel for the reality of Keme, Kush; of ancient African civilizations.

Watch Yeelen on You Tube; the entire film is in 10 min segments, which you can either download or view sequentially...

This is a very non-Hollywood type film made in 1987 by Souleyman Cisse:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4h-vaDBoJ4
 
Posted by Energy (Member # 16438) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by zarahan:

On the Hebrews if as you say, "The people the Hebrews live with in Africa are again in West Africa, namely the Akan and the Fulani" I still think you have heavy lifting to prove that one. But again, if you have more detailed info, by all means it can't hurt to put it out there.

The Bible makes it clear in the book of Isaiah the Israelites fled to the ancient Egyptians for refuge. I am sure you'd agree given this large group of refugees, any group of Africans that were the ancient Egyptians, who played host to these refugees would remember them and pass it down in their oral history.

In line with this, Deham and Clapperton (1826, AppendixxII: 165) published a historical account in which Mohammed Bello the Sultan of the Fulani Empire had this to say about their neighbors;

The inhabitants of this province (Yarba), it is supposed, originated from the remnant of the children of Canaan, who were of the tribe of Nimrod. The cause of their establishment in the West of Africa, was as it is stated, in consequence of their being driven by Yaa-rooba, son of Kahtan, out of Arabia, to the Western coast between Egypt and Abyssinia. From that spot they advanced into the interior of Africa, till they reached Yarba, where they fixed their residence. On their way they left, in every place they stopped at, a tribe of their own people. Thus it is supposed all the tribes of Soodan, who inhabit the mountains, are originated from them.

The full account is in the Infakul Maisuri of Sultan Mohammed Bello, he died in 1837.

The point here is, the Sultan was justifying his aggressive wars against the Hebrews in West Africa and he claims they are not Africans at all but from the land of Canaan and therefore had to be brought under his rule.

The question is; 'How did he know his enemies are from the land of Canaan?' Answer; through oral history handed down from his ancestors of course. The ancestors in this case being the 'host' to whom the ancient Israelites fled to for refuge. The 'host' who the Bible identified as the ancient Egyptians. Therefore Mohammed Bello by that statement showed he is directly descended from the ancient Egyptians. Bello being the supreme ruler of ALL the Fulani, thus shows the Fulanii as the ancient Egyptians.


quote:

It would be ironic if there are Hebrew elements in West Africa, just as they are among the Falasha in Ethiopia, although again, the Falasha group most closely with African groups. Quote:

: “..the Ethiopian Jews acquired their religion without substantial genetic admixture from Middle Eastern peoples and that they can be considered an ethnic group with essentially a continental African genetic composition." (Cruciani, et. al "A Back Migration from Asia to Sub-Saharan Africa)

The Falashians are not Hebrews. If you read further on from the chapters in Jeremiah it tells you the condition of the Hebrews when they left Israel, they were HARD-CORE idol worshippers who worshipped myriads of gods. This is not the case with the Falasha. The Falasha don't worship idols.

Apart from that the Israelites that fled to Africa retained their name as Hebrews. Why would they change their name? The Falasha are called Falasha and not Hebrew. The people in West Africa on the other hand kept their name, Hebrew. The name is pronounced the same way as any Rabbi would pronounce it.

Note. Hebrew is a translation into English of the original name of the Israelites. The designation of the Israelites in the Hebrew language is not called Hebrew. The name, 'Hebrew' is just an English translation of the original.
 
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
This one is interesting

quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:

** West African Fulbe **


 
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:

Got me crossed eyed DJ. What are you saying?

What AUTOSOMAL trait? Haven't read the entire thread but enlighten us. What genetic trait besides the sex haplo-group?

What autosomal trait are localized to West Africa?

I have never been to the continent but from what I read earlier some of these Fulani's can be mistakenly be taken for stereotypical East Africans.

The conclusion. These autosomal features are found both in the EAst and West of the continent.

Correct me????!!!


Okay, a study of autosomal chromosomes on African populations was posted here years ago, I believe by Rasol, and the conclusion is that Fulani are no different from other West Africans where as they are different from east African groups. While autosomes are recombinant and thus can't give you any information on specific lineages they can tell you about certain affinities about a general population. And overall there is nothing to suggest that they are an immigrant group from Egypt but are indigenous to the area!!
 
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Makes sense. IF that was the case then that should be the end of the discussion.

Anyone has this study????

There are un-answered questions irregardsless.

1. Did the study determine that the East African Fulanis
also cluster with West Africans? I believe Energy stated that they can found across the Sahara belt. East to West. See where I am going with this?

2. If they share the same language and culture then where was the point of origin?

3. From what Altk and others are saying seems like they originated from the around the Eastern Sahara. Same as the AE. That may explain the similarities in culture and language words.

4. Look like one group went East/North and the other West/South. . .to escape the expanding Sahara.

Again. . .anyone have this study DJ is talking about? You vets should have it. . . . why start the thread to begin with if this study was posted before?


quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:

Got me crossed eyed DJ. What are you saying?

What AUTOSOMAL trait? Haven't read the entire thread but enlighten us. What genetic trait besides the sex haplo-group?

What autosomal trait are localized to West Africa?

I have never been to the continent but from what I read earlier some of these Fulani's can be mistakenly be taken for stereotypical East Africans.

The conclusion. These autosomal features are found both in the EAst and West of the continent.

Correct me????!!!


Okay, a study of autosomal chromosomes on African populations was posted here years ago, I believe by Rasol, and the conclusion is that Fulani are no different from other West Africans where as they are different from east African groups. While autosomes are recombinant and thus can't give you any information on specific lineages they can tell you about certain affinities about a general population. And overall there is nothing to suggest that they are an immigrant group from Egypt but are indigenous to the area!!

 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Let's be clear about what I'm saying. From this
threads beginning my position on this topic is:
quote:

Wait a minute. My position is that the first
cultural-archaeological evidence for Fulani
traits appear in Late Stone Age Sahara at
Tassili n'Ajjer in southeast Algeria.


. . . .


Despite the ethno-archaeological fact of Fulani cultural
attributes first appearing in Late Stone Age south east
Algeria, some continue to posit an Ancient Egyptian origin
as late as the 12th or even the 18th dynasty. Now how
anachronistic can an argument be then that?

In general the current Sahara, sahel, savannah and most
woodland West African ethnies were resident in the Green
Sahara from which they moved south and southwest to
where they are now found.

...

Everything we historically know about the Fulani leads
us to the conclusion of a Green Saharan origin followed
by nature generated southwest drift over the millenia to
the Hodh and the Senegal, from whence in recent written
historic times they consciously migrated eastward settling
in the Nile Valley no more that 200 years ago at best.

I hope I am understood. I do favor the idea that
the once Fertile 'Sahara' was the home to many a
people who moved north, east, south, and southwest
to in time become one of the human components making
up the present ethnies bordering and beyond the now
arid Sahara Desert.

quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
3. From what Altk and others are saying seems like they originated from the around the Eastern Sahara. Same as the AE. That may explain the similarities in culture and language words.



 
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
I left out this part.

quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
Let's be clear about what I'm saying. From this
threads beginning my position on this topic is:
quote:

. . . . from whence in recent written
historic times they consciously migrated eastward settling
in the Nile Valley no more that 200 years ago . . .
.

quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
3. From what Altk and others are saying seems like they originated from the around the Eastern Sahara. Same as the AE. That may explain the similarities in culture and language words.




 
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
So there you have it. West Africans with stereotypical East African features.

BTW - Anyone have the study DJ referenced.
 
Posted by Red, White, and Blue + Christian (Member # 10893) on :
 
al Takruri!!!

My God! My God!

Don't let these people turn your head around right after Sukkot. The Fulani are descended from the Hyksos/Shepherd Kings/Israelites.

When the Fulani slaves came to America in the early 1800's they claimed Egypt. They were IN SLAVERY. Many of the Egyptian discoveries weren't even done yet. I go by them. They had no reason to lie.

Energy and xyyman got it all backward. First of all the Fulani were enslaved by the Manden who were the real movers in shakers in the West african kingdoms. The Tuareg began Ti-N-Buk-Too!

The Manden created N'Ghana, Mali, N'Gabou, and Songhai is related to Manden.

The Fulani were enslaved along the far Western Coast of Africa by the Mande. Our ancestor Prince AbdurRahman Diallo was enslaved fighting the Hebos (Igbos) in Nigeria. He ended up in Mississipi. He came from Fuuta Djallon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdulrahman_Ibrahim_Ibn_Sori

 -

The Nigerian Fulani are not all E1b1a. They have the R1b-P25 Y chromosome which is identical to the Sephardic Jews and other Euro/ME groups. The Fulani of Cameroon, the Adamawa Woodaabe came from Nigeria. They all have R1b Y chromosomes in the majority. Then the left these areas and went to Sudan were 60+ % of Fulbe and 50+% of Hausa are R1b!

Good Grief! Get your facts straight.

The mtDNA of the Fulbe from their mothers is similar to the Mandenka and Serer. They speak their mother's tongue which is from the northern branch of West Atlantic like Wolof and Serer.

The R1b M 173 Y chromosome found in Israel to Egypt to East Africa is concentrated in the Fulbe and has been found in African American men in small percentages.
 
Posted by Red, White, and Blue + Christian (Member # 10893) on :
 
THe Fulani are also tolerant of lactase which is a trait found in Europeans.

http://www.scienceinafrica.co.za/2002/june/lactose.htm

In his article Milk Allergy and Lactose Intolerance (May 2002), Dr Steinman gives the following figures for lactose intolerance for children over 5 years old: "90-95% of black individuals and 20-25% of white individuals throughout the world". In fact, the picture is much more complicated. Many Asian populations, especially people from Far East, have rates of lactase deficiency approaching 100%. Additionally, there are a few groups in Africa, such as the Fulani, who have relatively low rates of lactose intolerance (around 20-25 percent). Conversely, some European populations like the Swedes are almost completely lactose tolerant (apx. 4% deficiency). Given that most of the world does not fall neatly into 'black' or 'white' categories, such variation is important. In fact, the world average for lactose intolerance is probably much closer to the 90-95% range given for 'blacks.'


Nevertheless, the Fulani are West Africans i.e. Black people and got caught up in the slave trade.

 -
 
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
Good post.

.


quote:
Originally posted by Red, White, and Blue + Christian:
al Takruri!!!

My God! My God!

Don't let these people turn your head around right after Sukkot. The Fulani are descended from the Hyksos/Shepherd Kings/Israelites.

When the Fulani slaves came to America in the early 1800's they claimed Egypt. They were IN SLAVERY. Many of the Egyptian discoveries weren't even done yet. I go by them. They had no reason to lie.

Energy and xyyman got it all backward. First of all the Fulani were enslaved by the Manden who were the real movers in shakers in the West african kingdoms. The Tuareg began Ti-N-Buk-Too!

The Manden created N'Ghana, Mali, N'Gabou, and Songhai is related to Manden.

The Fulani were enslaved along the far Western Coast of Africa by the Mande. Our ancestor Prince AbdurRahman Diallo was enslaved fighting the Hebos (Igbos) in Nigeria. He ended up in Mississipi. He came from Fuuta Djallon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdulrahman_Ibrahim_Ibn_Sori

 -

The Nigerian Fulani are not all E1b1a. They have the R1b-P25 Y chromosome which is identical to the Sephardic Jews and other Euro/ME groups. The Fulani of Cameroon, the Adamawa Woodaabe came from Nigeria. They all have R1b Y chromosomes in the majority. Then the left these areas and went to Sudan were 60+ % of Fulbe and 50+% of Hausa are R1b!

Good Grief! Get your facts straight.

The mtDNA of the Fulbe from their mothers is similar to the Mandenka and Serer. They speak their mother's tongue which is from the northern branch of West Atlantic like Wolof and Serer.

The R1b M 173 Y chromosome found in Israel to Egypt to East Africa is concentrated in the Fulbe and has been found in African American men in small percentages.


 
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
@ Red

OOOKKKEEEAAYYY!!!

You threw a lot of stuff in there. But we need a little something called. . . . . evidence. Without it . . .it is all BS and fairytale. I am a black man and have no problem saying I am E3a, decendant of slaves from. . .I was told West Africa.

These are the facts about me. From the evidence provided thus far it seems like the Fulani's are NOT what/who you think they are.

Looks like they came from the same ancestral peopels as AE(ie Saharans). share the same aquiline features. ALL ARE BLACK AFRICANS.
 
Posted by Hammer (Member # 17003) on :
 
all except the Egyptians
 
Posted by Energy (Member # 16438) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Red, White, and Blue + Christian:
al Takruri!!!

My God! My God!

Don't let these people turn your head around right after Sukkot. The Fulani are descended from the Hyksos/Shepherd Kings/Israelites.

Fulani are NOT Hebrews, period. If you dispute what I am saying, then PROVE IT. I bet you a billion years you cant prove that the Fulani are Hebrews, because they were NEVER Hebrews. Furthermore, the Fulani have NEVER ever claimed to be part of the Hebrews. In fact their own overload Sultan Mohammed Bello claimed others (the people they were enslaving) to be the Hebrews and not his people.


quote:
When the Fulani slaves came to America in the early 1800's they claimed Egypt. They were IN SLAVERY. Many of the Egyptian discoveries weren't even done yet. I go by them. They had no reason to lie.

The Fulani were enslaved along the far Western Coast of Africa by the Mande. Our ancestor Prince AbdurRahman Diallo was enslaved fighting the Hebos (Igbos) in Nigeria. He ended up in Mississipi. He came from Fuuta Djallon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdulrahman_Ibrahim_Ibn_Sori

It was the Fulanis who were the driving force behind the slave trade. Read your own link again. This is the story of ONE Fulani man. Do you notice how quickly he was released from slavery when a letter he wrote got to West Africa? Because ONE Fulani man got his just deserves in what they were dishing out to millions in West Africa does not mean the Fulanis were slaves. Where is the evidence that millions of Fulani were sold into slavery in America?

Have you ever heard of Usman Dan Fodio? He is the founder of the Fulani Empire. Better google him up and find out how the Fulani jihad he started is what caused millions of West Africans to end up in slavery in America. It was the war with the Old Oyo Empire (the seat of the Hebrew people) and the defeat of Old Oyo that led to the millions of people being sold into the Americas as slaves.

Don't take my word for it, here is a map of West Africa at the height of the slave trade.

 -

As you can see the white man divided West Africa into trading zones, the Grain Coast, the Ivory Coast, the Gold Coast present day Ghana, and the biggest of all but the one you never hear of, THE SLAVE COAST, which is present day Togo, Benin and Southern Nigeria. There are NO Fulani people living in the slave coast region, Fulani are way up north of the slave coast.

This area is known as the slave coast because this where the bulk of the slaves came from. THe Hebrew people I mentioned earlier, occupy ALL of the area identified in the map as the slave coast. Contrary to what you might have heard that slavery was due to Noah's curse on Ham, the people who ended up as slaves were actually descended from Noah's favorite son Shem who later on became the Hebrews aka the Israelites.

quote:

Energy and xyyman got it all backward. First of all the Fulani were enslaved by the Manden who were the real movers in shakers in the West african kingdoms. The Tuareg began Ti-N-Buk-Too!

The Manden created N'Ghana, Mali, N'Gabou, and Songhai is related to Manden.

The Fulani are the largest nomadic group of people in the world and have played an influential role in politics, economics, and religion throughout Western Africa for over a thousand years. Historically, the Fulani played a significant role in the rise and fall of ancient African empires such as the Ghana Empire, the Mali Empire, Songhai, and the Mossi states.

source: http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Fulani
 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Actually Bello clearly writes that particularly
the Taurud/Toronke filiation of Fulani are of
Jewish descent and he gives his sources.

I prefer to separate my folklore from my science
when the two form poles. Socially I side with
folk wisdom. Academically I slide as the science
contradicts itself.
 
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Hammered:

all except the Egyptians

Nope! You obviously have poor reading comprehension along with psychotic delusion, since xyman made it clear that Egyptians also share in Saharan African (black)origins. [Smile]
 
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
 
There is no such thing as "Jewish descent" since it is a religion (not a race or ethnic group) that was put together from different sources, mostly ancient Egyptian.
 
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:

So there you have it. West Africans with stereotypical East African features.

BTW - Anyone have the study DJ referenced.

Mind you, there are East Africans with "stereotypical" West African features as well. What does this mean?? It means there is NO stereotypical features endemic to either East Africa or West Africa! Hence it is silly to presume a West African people like Fulani to have Nile Valley origins due to their features as it is an East African people like the Surma to have "Bantu" origins because of their features.
 
Posted by Energy (Member # 16438) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
Actually Bello clearly writes that particularly
the Taurud/Toronke filiation of Fulani are of
Jewish descent and he gives his sources.

NOT TRUE! Bello did not quote from any source. The Sultan, Mohammed Bello said nothing of the sort that Fulani are Jewish. Bello spoke to the English Explorer Clapperton and the following is what Clapperton recorded as Bello's words;

"The inhabitants of this province (Yarba), it is supposed, originated from the remnant of the children of Canaan, who were of the tribe of Nimrod. The cause of their establishment in the West of Africa, was as it is stated, in consequence of their being driven by Yaa-rooba, son of Kahtan, out of Arabia, to the Western coast between Egypt and Abyssinia. From that spot they advanced into the interior of Africa, till they reached Yarba, where they fixed their residence. On their way they left, in every place they stopped at, a tribe of their own people. Thus it is supposed all the tribes of Soodan, who inhabit the mountains, are originated from them."

source: Deham and Clapperton (1826, AppendixxII: 165)

As you can see those are not my words. I am quoting the direct sources. If you have evidence to the contrary, please post it. Just saying Bello claimed Fualni have Jewish descent does not fly, I need to see the evidence where he said so and to whom, before I can accept the statement as credible.
 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Oh, it flies. And it flies very high among scholars.

It matters very little what you accept because the
fact of the matter doesn't rely on you. Your quote
isn't a statement from Bello on Fulani origins and
so it's not relevant.

May I suggest a diligent perusal of Bello's very own
Infaq ul~maisuri fi tarikh bilad at~Tekrur wherein he
gives geneaologies for Fulani in general, and a few
sub-divisions in particular, as well as his isnad for
the traditions of origin he relates.
 
Posted by Energy (Member # 16438) on :
 
^ What scholars believe in fiction? Rogue scholars? LOL! Hahahahaaaaa!

Proper scholars believe in FACTS. You said the Sultan said something about Fulani are from the Hebrews. Prove it. I know you can't because you have no idea what Bello said or did not say. If you say Bello said that the Fulani are descended from the Hebrews just cut and paste where he said so in the ul~maisuri with the full interpretation of his words in English.

Oh, and by the the way, my quote and source is VERY relevant because you can try as much as you want and you'd find the only time the world became aware of Bello making those statements was from the explorer Clapperton when he attributed it to Bello.

And BTW alTakruri, use your head for once OK. Bello's words are not the end of the story. He was inferring that his neighbors are from the land of Canaan. This is where you show your intelligence. You have to cross reference with the people he is referring to to see if what Bello is saying is true. Is there any evidence from these people that they are indeed Canaanites. You see Bello's words by themselves prove nothing. It has to be confirmed by the other side. This is where the rubber as they say, meet the road.

Yes the people being referred to by Bello do indeed confirm their origins from the land of Canaan, How do I know this? I know, because I am HIGH prince of my people and I know our hisory very well. But guess what, the Fulani are not our brothers, they were once our bitter enemies and their language, culture and tradition are way removed from ours. You get that?

You sit wherever you are and spew you ignorance. Whatever you say or believe don't mean squat, because at the end of the day, if someone like me does not approve of it, hardly anyone in that part of Africa you are referring to would accept it, your thought and words goes out with the rest of the garbage.
 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
So typical

This is why I don't freely give my sources away.
Your mind is closed and you won't accept what
Bello has passed down. For you Bello only exists
as a prop for your ideaology, not to be trusted
where he knocks your boat clean out the water.

All your pomp and braggadocio about who and what
you are is utterly meaningless. For all I know
or care, you could be the Grand Wazoo. So what?

You fail to peruse the volume I assigned you and
you have not bothered to search secondary sources
for Bello's remarks on Fulani origins. Even an
internet search will uncover them.

There is nothing more to say is there?

quote:
Energy wrote:
Bello's words are not the end of the story.
...Bello's words by themselves prove nothing


 
Posted by yql718 (Member # 16646) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Wally:
quote:
Just to punch a hole in your rationale, I'll just demonstrate a few examples.
Let's take say, "you" in ancient Egyptian...

(sigh)
obviously doesn't understand the concept of correspondence in language - agreement: compatibility. Thinks that "exhaustive"(include every possible element) is a way to punch a hole in "correspondence."

Let us give an example by comparing the word "you" in three languages of the Romance family - Spanish, Portuguese, and French:

You - Tu, Voce, Tu
tu / voce / tu
vosotros / voce / te
vosotras / voces / vous
usted / tu / tu
ustedes / te / toi
Ud / ti / on
Vd / Vos / -
uno / senhor / -
la / senhores / -
le / senhora / -
ti / senhoras / -
les / ihe / -
os / ihes / -
te / o / -
vds / os / -
uds / a / -

an example of correspondence between the three related languages would then be;

you: tu / tu / tu
you: tu / voce / tu
you: vosotras / voces / vous

Would any of these words describe Serena's figure below?

 -

Could she be Fulani?
 
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
 
yql718 wrote,
quote:
Would any of these words describe Serena's figure below (above)?
Could she be Fulani?

[Big Grin] [Big Grin] [Wink]
(...apropos this forum topic, which became intransigent sometime ago...)

a) The Romance language word for miss Serena and sis Venus would be "gorda" - the new look of American women (and men); the secret children of and the revenge of Jabba the Hutt!

b) Of course, she almost definitely has some Fulani ancestry as well as Akan, Mende, Mangbetu, Wolof, ...

That's the beauty of being African-American; our lineage is pan-African...
 
Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Energy:

does not mean the Fulanis were slaves. Where is the evidence that millions of Fulani were sold into slavery in America?


Folks this fruitcake actually wants us to believe that Fulanis were not brought to the Americas as slaves.


You spend too much time at the movie theatres and in front of the television. Here are a few words of knowledge. TV and the movies ain't real. Even an eight year old should know that by now.


Just because "you believe" a certain group of people or an individual looks good does not mean they're lives have been paved with gold and nothing bad has ever happened to them. I know visual and for that matter audio and literary media like to mytholize that nothing ever happens to the so called "good looking people". But those forms of media are made by dummies to be consumed by even bigger dummies.


Trust me fruitcake, if the people in the link below were slaves in America, you can best believe your Fulani were also. Thats why so many of the look like AAs.


http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=001954


Your energy has been drained and you are now dismissed.
 
Posted by Red, White, and Blue + Christian (Member # 10893) on :
 
Energy,

I am not angry with you. I will assume that you are an Igbo from London. The problem is with the timeline. I had misconceptions about slavery for many years due to an improper understanding of events.

The religious campaign of Uthman Dan Fodio took place after and around 1806. The American Slave Trade was officially forbidden by 1808. Most of the ancestors of the people who would become the African Americans came into what would become the United States between 1700 and 1800.
The Tuareg confederacy wasn't established until 1803.

The following is redundant:

I have said many times that my ancestors came from a place called South Carolina in the USA. This was the state which was first to break away from the Union to start the Civil War. This is the state from which Senator Joe Wilson interrupted my prez and said,
"You Lie!". This is the only state in the Union to fly the Confederate Flag over its state house.
This is the ancestral state of our first lady.

You can call my ancestors Gullah or Geechee.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gullah

AfricanAncestry.com has found through testing
thousands of African Americans that about half
of our lineages come from the Upper
Guinea Coast/Senegambia. This is the area from
Senegal to Liberia. Only 15% come from the
Bight of Benin.

When the men in the S.C. city where my relatives live
DNA tested, it was found that the overwhelming
majority of those who had an African forefather
were descended from ONE MAN who lived on
the Upper Guinea Coast of West Africa.
I will infer that he was Mandingo or Fulani.
The historical record shows clearly
that most of slaves imported into South Carolina
were MANDINGO (Mandinka, Mende, Vai, Kpelle etc)
and secondly Fulani (and other West Atlantic speakers).

There were also Angolans, Yoruba, Ibo, Songhay/Tuareg, Bakongo
and other groups as well.

I used to think the Muslims enslaved my ancestors
and that's how we got to America.

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

West Africa did not become majority Muslim
until AFTER the Slave Trade was over.
The PORTUGUESE were the first Europeans
to engage with Africa. They set up the
original slave ports in West Africa, Angola
and Mozambique. Many of those PORTUGUESE
were New Christians or hidden
PORTUGUESE JEWS. They slept with Black
women and had Mulatto sons who ran the
Slave Business on the African side.

http://saudades.org/jewscapev.html

The PORTUGUESE JEWS were expeled from PORTUGAL
in 1497, five years after the SPANISH JEWS.
PORTUGUESE JEWS left and went to ENGLAND and
HOLLAND and later BRAZIL.

The largest concentration of slaves in the USA
was in South Cariolina. 40% of all African slaves
entered the USA through the port of Charleston,
South Carolina. Also, Charleston, South Carolina
had the largest concentration of Jews in the USA
before 1840. They were PORTUGUESE JEWS from
ENGLAND! The Indigo trade was begun and ran by
PORTUGUESE JEWS.

The first slave revolt in the New World was
in the Spanish Colony which would become
La Republica Dominicana in the 1500s.
They were Wolof Muslims. Afterwards, the Spanish
and Portuguese did not want to deal with
Muslim slaves. They were Moros or Moors.
The first great Black American was a Moor.

The British took the Moorish slaves the Latins
did not want. So, over time the Mandingoes and Fullahs and similar people were steered north to the British Colonies.

When the Europeans came to West Africa, they put
forts and outposts on the coasts. They directed
trade toward the Atlantic ocean. Today, most
West African capitols are on the coastline.
The discovery of the New World, the redirection
of African trade and the West African Slave Trade
broke the back of the Islamic heyday of the Middle Ages. The TransSaharan trade was destroyed and the Europeans became wealthier with new markets.

The European slave traders prefered to deal with
non-Islamic groups. They often got the Africans
drunk. Muslims don't drink alcohol. The Africans
who practiced traditional religions were at odds
with the Muslim MINORITY before 1800! That's
why so many of our DNA test results link us
to tribal groups which were Muslim or would become Muslim after 1800.

The Slave Coast enriched Ashanti, Dahomean(Fongbe), Benin and Ibo Slave merchants to the detriment of inland slave captives from places like Hausaland, Songhay, Tamazgha and old Mali.

Bantu speaking slaves got caught up in the net
of PORTUGUESE slave traders. That's why Brazil
has the largest concentration of Blacks
in the New World. The first Black slaves in the
British colony of Jamestown came by Brazil
from Angola in 1619. The first Jews in the USA (NYC)
came from Brazil more than 350 years ago.
They were PORTUGUESE JEWS. New York City
where I live, was the had the second largest
concentration of Black slaves in the USA after
Charleston, South Carolina.

Wall Street was where they had a slave auction block. NYC or New Amsterdam (Dutch Colony) had Black slaves all over the place and in lower Manhattan.

The oldest Colonial burial ground and the oldest
slave burial ground is not in the South. No!
It is here in New York City.

Not far that from Wall Street is the African Burial Ground. They did DNA analysis on the bodies of the slaves. Many were little children who were worked to death at an
early age. They tests revealed a good number of them matched the Fulani from Benin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you are African American, you are partly
descended from a variety of tribal groups
from Senegal to Angola and East Africa.
On the slave plantations, people of various
tribes were put together on purpose, so that
they could not communicate. This was meant
to divided and conquer. The Big Black Mandingo
was forced to sleep with the Ibo, the Angolan
with the Akan, etc. Over time, the tribal
divisions became meaningless and we became
N****RS. We lost the languages, the religions,
the history and they tried to take our humanity.

So now, "W E B L A C K"

The slave narratives are important and the
Arabic writings of Fullah and Mandingo
slaves are a testimony to the intellectual
capacity of Africans. In the USA, slaves
were FORBIDDEN TO READ AND WRITE.

The Fullah were not always Muslim. They were
originally a pagan group of cattle herders.
Koli Tenguella Bah (Bah i.e. Clan of the Red Cow)
formed the Pagan Denyaake Kingdom in Tekrour.
Pagan Mandingoes and Fullah united and went south to Fuuta Djallon practicing their ancient hybrid religion, Fuuta Toro or Tekrour did not become a Muslim state until 1776 when the USA declared Independence.
Fuuta Djallon turned Muslim in 1725, I think?!?!?

It was the Soninke who became Muslim from the Amazigh
Almoravids in the 1100s or before. They started N'Ghana.
The Soninke are Mande.

Most Fullah in Guinea and Sierra Leone are Bah.

I read on several Francophone Peul sites that the Peul,
Fulbe, Fullah, Fulani claim Jewish roots.
In Maurice Delafosse's 3 Volume "Haut Senegal et Niger",
he spends many pages discussing the Judeo-Syrian
ancestry of the Fulbe, HalPulaaren ,and Tuareg.

----------------------------------
We are discussing the Egyptian Origin of the
Fulani. While I was on EgyptSearch wasting time
speaking with y'all. Melvin Collier wrote a
book, went to South Carolina, Senegal and Gambia.
I have a feeling that I have Fulani ancestry
among many. Yet, Mel took a DNA test to
reveal his foremothers from South Carolina
were Fulani!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

He has an interesting informative pages that have
relevance to this discussion:
 
Posted by Red, White, and Blue + Christian (Member # 10893) on :
 
Mel Collier's webpages:

http://www.mississippitoafrica.com/blackrootsseeker/fulani.htm

http://www.mississippitoafrica.com/blackrootsseeker/tikar.htm

by Melvin J. Collier


African Ancestry, Inc. found that the DNA sequence in my father's mitochondrial DNA is a 100% match to the Tikar people of Cameroon. My father's matrilineage has been traced back to his great-great-grandmother, Caroline Morris, of Warren County, Mississippi. She was born somewhere in Virginia c. 1815. Interestingly, Quincy Jones's maternal ancestors also lived in the same vicinity of Warren County; his mtDNA matched the Tikar as well. Africans from the Bight of Biafra region (Nigeria, Cameroon, and Gabon) comprised of the largest group (40%) forcibly transported to Virginia ports during the Middle Passage.


Tikar History

(A very special thanks to Dr. John Q. Williams, who received information from members of the Tikar ethnic group of Cameroon about their history. Look for his upcoming book, "God, Guts, and Game - Survival of Three African-American Families from 1747 to 2000".)

According to the oral and documented history of the Tikar people, they originated in present-day Sudan. It is believed that when they inhabited Sudan, they lived adjacent to two groups. The first group comprised of iron-makers/blacksmiths and carpenters in the Meroe Kindgom; this group (ancestors of the Mende people) later left the Sudan and moved west towards Lake Chad. They eventually traveled to the Mali Empire, and along with the town Fulani and Mande, founded the Kingdom of Mani. The second group - ancestors of the Fulani - arrived in the Sudan from Egypt and Ethiopia. These cattle and goat herders moved west to Lake Chad near present-day Cameroon, Niger, and Nigeria before traveling across West Africa. It is is believed that when the ancestors of the Tikar were in the Sudan, they lived along the Nile River. There, they developed their cattle grazing, iron-making, horse riding, and fighting skills.

At some point in time, the ancestors of the Tikar moved from the Sudan to the Adamawa Northern Region of present-day Cameroon. They settled in a village they named Ngambe (present-day Bankim District) where they intermarried with selected grassland farmers and animal herders of other groups. During the mixing with selected grassland residents, a powerful chief and eventually king came to power. With the skills brought from the Sudan, the Tikar king was able to rule most of northern and central Cameroon. After the death of the king, his oldest son inherited the throne. Soon afterwards, his second son, Share-Yen, and his followers moved to present-day Mfounbam district and started the Mbamound Clan. Ngouo-Nso, a sister, and her followers moved to present-day Koumbo District and created the Koumbo Clan in the present-day state of Mbanso near Mbamenda. The youngest brother moved further south and created the Mbafia Clan in the present-day Mbam state.

The Tikar Empire had strong political traditions. At the height of the Tikar Empire, fifteen kingdoms or clans existed; the Ngambe was the largest. Future kings and the ruling class always came from this clan and all clan were headed by a Fon who supervised nobles, large farm producers, military leaders, merchants, and town leaders. With superior weapons and fighting on horseback, Tikar soldiers protected the empire, maintained domestic peace, and collected taxes. A caste system existed, but the standard of living for the Tikar was above those from other ethnic groups. The Tikar people was known for their sophistication in government, war, and the arts - including a bronze casting process for making masks.

While the Tikar lived in Cameroon, most of the people with Tikar ancestry lived the "good life". Vocational training was the norm for Tikar boys, and teachers taught various forms of craft-making, woodcarving, mask carving, and making bronze sculptures. The Tikar people also developed a process for using hot wax to make masks and bronze sculptures. During the height of the Tikar Empire, many Tikar people were also gifted in music, dancing, acting, and writing.

The Tikar people had control over the trade routes between the Fulani and Hausa merchants to the north of the Tikar Empire and coastal ports. Due to the Tikar's advanced ceramic techniques and architecture/iron smelting kilns, products were exported north to the Hausa people and south to coastal ports.

For three centuries, the Tikar ruled present-day Cameroon and Central Africa with sophistication, but with a iron fist and heavy tax burdens on people from other ethnic groups. It was also reported that because of their high standard of living, there were more than one million people with Tikar ancestry by 1800. However, trouble came. Research revealed that by 1800, several African ethnic groups had joined the Europeans to fight the Tikar people, who was known for their quick ability to learn and their sophistication and for being hated by surrounding Africans. The Tikar were unable to obtain modern weapons; they were never able to take control over the coast. So, they were caught in the middle between the coast and the north.

As the Tikar people attempted to abandon their traditional grassy savannahs and the plains where they were easy slave trade targets with no natural protection, they were forced to leave their villages with slave traders on one side and four hostile tribes on the other side seeking revenge. One of the strategies they applied to fight off the enemy was to dig moats around villages; these still exist in at least five kingdoms. However, this strategy failed and the survivors found refuge in the forest.

The transatlantic slave trade drained their brightest and most physically fit young people. Having been greatly weakened by war and the slave trade, they became vulnerable to neighboring groups who had been subjected by the Tikar for several centuries. During the Middle Passage, most of the Tikar adults and boys killed themselves rather than be sold as slaves. Still, it has been reported that most of the Tikar captives who arrived in the United States were females.

When slavery ended, there were between 60,000 - 75,000 Tikars in Cameroon, and most of them were hiding in forests from slave traders. Today, less than 100,000 Tikars live in Cameroon. They live as small and scattered related groups in the northwestern highlands near the Nigerian border. Much of the Tikar area lie in Cameroon's Adamawa plateau and the western highlands.

The Tikar are among the most industrious people in Cameroon. Urban Tikar boys score the highest marks on math examinations. Most Tikar children earn the highest grades in school. Urban Tikar students are reported to be the most gifted in arts and crafts, music, writing, and math.

Popular evening Tikar meals include: (1) chicken and tomatoes served on top of rice, (2) thick soups with hot spicy seasonings served on chicken, and (3) a form of fufu. Thick soups served on yams is often eaten in the morning.

Tikar Chiefs

A very special thanks to HAMADJAM Raphaël Athanase Elisée of Douala, Cameroon for sharing these pictures with me.

by Melvin J. Collier


African Ancestry, Inc. found that the DNA sequence in my father's mitochondrial DNA is a 100% match to the Tikar people of Cameroon. My father's matrilineage has been traced back to his great-great-grandmother, Caroline Morris, of Warren County, Mississippi. She was born somewhere in Virginia c. 1815. Interestingly, Quincy Jones's maternal ancestors also lived in the same vicinity of Warren County; his mtDNA matched the Tikar as well. Africans from the Bight of Biafra region (Nigeria, Cameroon, and Gabon) comprised of the largest group (40%) forcibly transported to Virginia ports during the Middle Passage.


Tikar History

(A very special thanks to Dr. John Q. Williams, who received information from members of the Tikar ethnic group of Cameroon about their history. Look for his upcoming book, "God, Guts, and Game - Survival of Three African-American Families from 1747 to 2000".)

According to the oral and documented history of the Tikar people, they originated in present-day Sudan. It is believed that when they inhabited Sudan, they lived adjacent to two groups. The first group comprised of iron-makers/blacksmiths and carpenters in the Meroe Kindgom; this group (ancestors of the Mende people) later left the Sudan and moved west towards Lake Chad. They eventually traveled to the Mali Empire, and along with the town Fulani and Mande, founded the Kingdom of Mani. The second group - ancestors of the Fulani - arrived in the Sudan from Egypt and Ethiopia. These cattle and goat herders moved west to Lake Chad near present-day Cameroon, Niger, and Nigeria before traveling across West Africa. It is is believed that when the ancestors of the Tikar were in the Sudan, they lived along the Nile River. There, they developed their cattle grazing, iron-making, horse riding, and fighting skills.

At some point in time, the ancestors of the Tikar moved from the Sudan to the Adamawa Northern Region of present-day Cameroon. They settled in a village they named Ngambe (present-day Bankim District) where they intermarried with selected grassland farmers and animal herders of other groups. During the mixing with selected grassland residents, a powerful chief and eventually king came to power. With the skills brought from the Sudan, the Tikar king was able to rule most of northern and central Cameroon. After the death of the king, his oldest son inherited the throne. Soon afterwards, his second son, Share-Yen, and his followers moved to present-day Mfounbam district and started the Mbamound Clan. Ngouo-Nso, a sister, and her followers moved to present-day Koumbo District and created the Koumbo Clan in the present-day state of Mbanso near Mbamenda. The youngest brother moved further south and created the Mbafia Clan in the present-day Mbam state.

The Tikar Empire had strong political traditions. At the height of the Tikar Empire, fifteen kingdoms or clans existed; the Ngambe was the largest. Future kings and the ruling class always came from this clan and all clan were headed by a Fon who supervised nobles, large farm producers, military leaders, merchants, and town leaders. With superior weapons and fighting on horseback, Tikar soldiers protected the empire, maintained domestic peace, and collected taxes. A caste system existed, but the standard of living for the Tikar was above those from other ethnic groups. The Tikar people was known for their sophistication in government, war, and the arts - including a bronze casting process for making masks.

While the Tikar lived in Cameroon, most of the people with Tikar ancestry lived the "good life". Vocational training was the norm for Tikar boys, and teachers taught various forms of craft-making, woodcarving, mask carving, and making bronze sculptures. The Tikar people also developed a process for using hot wax to make masks and bronze sculptures. During the height of the Tikar Empire, many Tikar people were also gifted in music, dancing, acting, and writing.

The Tikar people had control over the trade routes between the Fulani and Hausa merchants to the north of the Tikar Empire and coastal ports. Due to the Tikar's advanced ceramic techniques and architecture/iron smelting kilns, products were exported north to the Hausa people and south to coastal ports.

For three centuries, the Tikar ruled present-day Cameroon and Central Africa with sophistication, but with a iron fist and heavy tax burdens on people from other ethnic groups. It was also reported that because of their high standard of living, there were more than one million people with Tikar ancestry by 1800. However, trouble came. Research revealed that by 1800, several African ethnic groups had joined the Europeans to fight the Tikar people, who was known for their quick ability to learn and their sophistication and for being hated by surrounding Africans. The Tikar were unable to obtain modern weapons; they were never able to take control over the coast. So, they were caught in the middle between the coast and the north.

As the Tikar people attempted to abandon their traditional grassy savannahs and the plains where they were easy slave trade targets with no natural protection, they were forced to leave their villages with slave traders on one side and four hostile tribes on the other side seeking revenge. One of the strategies they applied to fight off the enemy was to dig moats around villages; these still exist in at least five kingdoms. However, this strategy failed and the survivors found refuge in the forest.

The transatlantic slave trade drained their brightest and most physically fit young people. Having been greatly weakened by war and the slave trade, they became vulnerable to neighboring groups who had been subjected by the Tikar for several centuries. During the Middle Passage, most of the Tikar adults and boys killed themselves rather than be sold as slaves. Still, it has been reported that most of the Tikar captives who arrived in the United States were females.

When slavery ended, there were between 60,000 - 75,000 Tikars in Cameroon, and most of them were hiding in forests from slave traders. Today, less than 100,000 Tikars live in Cameroon. They live as small and scattered related groups in the northwestern highlands near the Nigerian border. Much of the Tikar area lie in Cameroon's Adamawa plateau and the western highlands.

The Tikar are among the most industrious people in Cameroon. Urban Tikar boys score the highest marks on math examinations. Most Tikar children earn the highest grades in school. Urban Tikar students are reported to be the most gifted in arts and crafts, music, writing, and math.

Popular evening Tikar meals include: (1) chicken and tomatoes served on top of rice, (2) thick soups with hot spicy seasonings served on chicken, and (3) a form of fufu. Thick soups served on yams is often eaten in the morning.

Tikar Chiefs

A very special thanks to HAMADJAM Raphaël Athanase Elisée of Douala, Cameroon for sharing these pictures with me.

by Melvin J. Collier


African Ancestry, Inc. found that the DNA sequence in my father's mitochondrial DNA is a 100% match to the Tikar people of Cameroon. My father's matrilineage has been traced back to his great-great-grandmother, Caroline Morris, of Warren County, Mississippi. She was born somewhere in Virginia c. 1815. Interestingly, Quincy Jones's maternal ancestors also lived in the same vicinity of Warren County; his mtDNA matched the Tikar as well. Africans from the Bight of Biafra region (Nigeria, Cameroon, and Gabon) comprised of the largest group (40%) forcibly transported to Virginia ports during the Middle Passage.


Tikar History

(A very special thanks to Dr. John Q. Williams, who received information from members of the Tikar ethnic group of Cameroon about their history. Look for his upcoming book, "God, Guts, and Game - Survival of Three African-American Families from 1747 to 2000".)

According to the oral and documented history of the Tikar people, they originated in present-day Sudan. It is believed that when they inhabited Sudan, they lived adjacent to two groups. The first group comprised of iron-makers/blacksmiths and carpenters in the Meroe Kindgom; this group (ancestors of the Mende people) later left the Sudan and moved west towards Lake Chad. They eventually traveled to the Mali Empire, and along with the town Fulani and Mande, founded the Kingdom of Mani. The second group - ancestors of the Fulani - arrived in the Sudan from Egypt and Ethiopia. These cattle and goat herders moved west to Lake Chad near present-day Cameroon, Niger, and Nigeria before traveling across West Africa. It is is believed that when the ancestors of the Tikar were in the Sudan, they lived along the Nile River. There, they developed their cattle grazing, iron-making, horse riding, and fighting skills.

At some point in time, the ancestors of the Tikar moved from the Sudan to the Adamawa Northern Region of present-day Cameroon. They settled in a village they named Ngambe (present-day Bankim District) where they intermarried with selected grassland farmers and animal herders of other groups. During the mixing with selected grassland residents, a powerful chief and eventually king came to power. With the skills brought from the Sudan, the Tikar king was able to rule most of northern and central Cameroon. After the death of the king, his oldest son inherited the throne. Soon afterwards, his second son, Share-Yen, and his followers moved to present-day Mfounbam district and started the Mbamound Clan. Ngouo-Nso, a sister, and her followers moved to present-day Koumbo District and created the Koumbo Clan in the present-day state of Mbanso near Mbamenda. The youngest brother moved further south and created the Mbafia Clan in the present-day Mbam state.

The Tikar Empire had strong political traditions. At the height of the Tikar Empire, fifteen kingdoms or clans existed; the Ngambe was the largest. Future kings and the ruling class always came from this clan and all clan were headed by a Fon who supervised nobles, large farm producers, military leaders, merchants, and town leaders. With superior weapons and fighting on horseback, Tikar soldiers protected the empire, maintained domestic peace, and collected taxes. A caste system existed, but the standard of living for the Tikar was above those from other ethnic groups. The Tikar people was known for their sophistication in government, war, and the arts - including a bronze casting process for making masks.

While the Tikar lived in Cameroon, most of the people with Tikar ancestry lived the "good life". Vocational training was the norm for Tikar boys, and teachers taught various forms of craft-making, woodcarving, mask carving, and making bronze sculptures. The Tikar people also developed a process for using hot wax to make masks and bronze sculptures. During the height of the Tikar Empire, many Tikar people were also gifted in music, dancing, acting, and writing.

The Tikar people had control over the trade routes between the Fulani and Hausa merchants to the north of the Tikar Empire and coastal ports. Due to the Tikar's advanced ceramic techniques and architecture/iron smelting kilns, products were exported north to the Hausa people and south to coastal ports.

For three centuries, the Tikar ruled present-day Cameroon and Central Africa with sophistication, but with a iron fist and heavy tax burdens on people from other ethnic groups. It was also reported that because of their high standard of living, there were more than one million people with Tikar ancestry by 1800. However, trouble came. Research revealed that by 1800, several African ethnic groups had joined the Europeans to fight the Tikar people, who was known for their quick ability to learn and their sophistication and for being hated by surrounding Africans. The Tikar were unable to obtain modern weapons; they were never able to take control over the coast. So, they were caught in the middle between the coast and the north.

As the Tikar people attempted to abandon their traditional grassy savannahs and the plains where they were easy slave trade targets with no natural protection, they were forced to leave their villages with slave traders on one side and four hostile tribes on the other side seeking revenge. One of the strategies they applied to fight off the enemy was to dig moats around villages; these still exist in at least five kingdoms. However, this strategy failed and the survivors found refuge in the forest.

The transatlantic slave trade drained their brightest and most physically fit young people. Having been greatly weakened by war and the slave trade, they became vulnerable to neighboring groups who had been subjected by the Tikar for several centuries. During the Middle Passage, most of the Tikar adults and boys killed themselves rather than be sold as slaves. Still, it has been reported that most of the Tikar captives who arrived in the United States were females.

When slavery ended, there were between 60,000 - 75,000 Tikars in Cameroon, and most of them were hiding in forests from slave traders. Today, less than 100,000 Tikars live in Cameroon. They live as small and scattered related groups in the northwestern highlands near the Nigerian border. Much of the Tikar area lie in Cameroon's Adamawa plateau and the western highlands.

The Tikar are among the most industrious people in Cameroon. Urban Tikar boys score the highest marks on math examinations. Most Tikar children earn the highest grades in school. Urban Tikar students are reported to be the most gifted in arts and crafts, music, writing, and math.

Popular evening Tikar meals include: (1) chicken and tomatoes served on top of rice, (2) thick soups with hot spicy seasonings served on chicken, and (3) a form of fufu. Thick soups served on yams is often eaten in the morning.

Tikar Chiefs

A very special thanks to HAMADJAM Raphaël Athanase Elisée of Douala, Cameroon for sharing these pictures with me.

http://www.mississippitoafrica.com/blackrootsseeker/
 
Posted by Red, White, and Blue + Christian (Member # 10893) on :
 
Now, I never heard anyone say that the slaves deserved what they got!

 -
 
Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
 
Red, White, and Blue + DunceCap wrote:
---------------------------------
---------------------------------


LOL! The moron is posting again. You're the guy who goes around pulling on doors marked push.


One of your first questions when you turned 13 years old was "Are you supposed to put your drawers on before or after you wash your boodie?".


hahahaheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!
 
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
@ RWB&C


I think the topic is “ the Egyptian origin of the Fulani” NOT” the Fulani Origin of some AA”.

Although you post some interesting information. You said the slave burial ground in NYC were DNA tested. What were discovered? From “tested Fulani” I assume these are autosomal markers?
 
Posted by Nay-Sayer (Member # 10566) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
So typical

This is why I don't freely give my sources away.
Your mind is closed and you won't accept what
Bello has passed down. For you Bello only exists
as a prop for your ideaology, not to be trusted
where he knocks your boat clean out the water.

He asked for your evidence, why don't you post it here for all to see?

Or is this just another case of your "children born outside of biological functions" argument?
 
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
 
^ great jew does not have to prove anything to the unbelieving goyim, he is above that. lol
 
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
yep. Ako
 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Good to see the peanut gallery is back! Ain't it just
wonderful how you don't ask Energy to produce Bello
on Fulani origins since he erroneously uses him to
fudge Hebrew origins for some other ethny whereas
Bello remarks on particular Canaanite origin for that
ethny. What we now as Hebrew is the language of
Canaan yet the Canaanites never called themselves
Hebrews but the Isrealites and the Judahites did
identify themselves as Hebrews to foreigners.

Unlike you two, Energy apparently did a simple internet
search on Bello, Fulani, and Jews. Now go do the same
and report back.

quote:
Originally posted by Nay-Sayer:
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
So typical

This is why I don't freely give my sources away.
Your mind is closed and you won't accept what
Bello has passed down. For you Bello only exists
as a prop for your ideaology, not to be trusted
where he knocks your boat clean out the water.

He asked for your evidence, why don't you post it here for all to see?

Or is this just another case of your "children born outside of biological functions" argument?

quote:
Originally posted by Bogle:
^ great jew does not have to prove anything to the unbelieving goyim, he is above that. lol


 
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
 
why dont you tell us somemore bedtimes stories about how maimonodes was actually not an anti-black racist, that white jews weren't the dominant element in the trans atlantic slave trade and how white jews in isreal of mesopotamian extraction (the ones who produced the racist talmud) are really good friends of black people in israel.
 
Posted by Red, White, and Blue + Christian (Member # 10893) on :
 
I can't find the African Burial Ground DNA study right now.

The West African Slave Trade to the Americas was multinational involving Jews, Chrisitans, Muslims and Pagans.

Fulanis came through Egypt. African Americans are part Fulani. Therefore, the distant ancestors of African Americans came through Egypt.


---------------------------------
http://www.jamtan.com/jamtan/fulani.cfm?chap=1&linksPage=226

Origins

Some believe that they are from a Semitic origin. According to the tradition, the ancestors of Fulani is Jacob son of Israel, son of Issac, son of Abraham When Jacob left Canaan and went to Egypt where Joseph was established. The Israelites prospered and grew in population while living in Egypt. Fulani people descended from them. After a long time a new Pharaoh who did not
know about Joseph's fame in Egypt, came to power. He made the Israelites work hard at slave labor. The Pharaoh oppressed the people, including Fulanis who were rich in cattle. They emigrated from Egypt, some of them went back to Palestine and Syria under Moses guidance and the other crossed the Nile with their cattle and headed west. They took the name of fouth or foudh meaning those who left. A group from the latter moved along the edges of the Sahara to Touat-Air and then to West-Africa.
Those who came to Masina (in present day Mali) spread to the neighboring regions where they were rejoined by Fulani groups from Morocco. It has established that about 700AD, Fulani groups from Morocco, moved southward, and invaded the regions of Tagout, Adrar, Mauritania, and Fuuta Tooro. The cradle of the Fulani group is situated in the Senegal River valley, where Fulanis established kingdoms. Until the beginning of the IX th Century..Around that period they continued their migration in the regions of Bundu, Bambouk, Diomboko, Kaarta, and Bagana
Finally those who where concentrated in the Ferlo from the XI to the XIV century moved in various groups to the Fuuta Jalon, to the Volta river basin , to the Gurma, to the Haussa land, and to the Adamawa, Boghirme,Ouadai
Other versions of the Fulani origin include:
a- The mixing between the proto-Berber from North Africa, and the Bafur (the people who populated the Sahara)
b- Issued from Asiatic pastoral tribes that invaded Africa, crossed the Sahara and dispersed through all the West-Africa Sahalian zone
c- The Anthropologists declare that the study of many Fulbe cranian structure has indicated that they are intimately linked to the Ethiopians and that both types are very similar to the Egyptian crane structure. According to the eminent Anthropologist Mr. Verneau, the Fulbe origin has to closely link the Egypt.


FINISHED FOR A WHILE.
 
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Informative website.

but you do understand my question?

How do they know these slaves were Fulani? What are the Fulani markers?

From what Energy is saying Fulanis come in many shapes and sizes,. . .and shades. Most carry E3a, you said R1?

The study you mentioned will help clarify some questions.
 
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
I don't get it?? from Energy's source

---___

The original Fulani people were of North African or Middle Eastern origin. As such, they had lighter skin, thinner lips, and straighter hair, and are referred to by many Africans as "white people." Current Fulani peoples contain a large number of people from diverse backgrounds who became a part of the Fulani through conquest and religious conversion.
 
Posted by Red, White, and Blue + Christian (Member # 10893) on :
 
xyyman,

This is my final post for a while. No more questions after this.

Most female markers for the mtDNA of the Fulani is West African very close to the Mandenka and Serer of Senegal in most Fullah groups whereever they are.

But, the male lineages differ widely. The best thing for me to do is show you some reports.

Start with al~Takruri's thread which features the .pdf file I was hinting at:

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=006519

http://dienekes.50webs.com/blog/archives/000620.html

West African Guinean mtDNA
Annals of Human Genetics
Volume 68 Issue 4 Page 340 - July 2004

MtDNA Profile of West Africa Guineans: Towards a Better Understanding of the Senegambia Region

Alexandra Rosa et al.

Summary

The matrilineal genetic composition of 372 samples from the Republic of Guiné-Bissau (West African coast) was studied using RFLPs and partial sequencing of the mtDNA control and coding region. The majority of the mtDNA lineages of Guineans (94%) belong to West African specific sub-clusters of L0-L3 haplogroups. A new L3 sub-cluster (L3h) that is found in both eastern and western Africa is present at moderately low frequencies in Guinean populations. A non-random distribution of haplogroups U5 in the Fula group, the U6 among the "Brame" linguistic family and M1 in the Balanta-Djola group, suggests a correlation between the genetic and linguistic affiliation of Guinean populations. The presence of M1 in Balanta populations supports the earlier suggestion of their Sudanese origin. Haplogroups U5 and U6, on the other hand, were found to be restricted to populations that are thought to represent the descendants of a southern expansion of Berbers. Particular haplotypes, found almost exclusively in East-African populations, were found in some ethnic groups with an oral tradition claiming Sudanese origin.

A possible ancient migration from Asia to Africa was proposed by Cruciani et al. (2002) to explain the presence of some unusual Y-chromosome lineages identified in West Africa. Haplogroup R1 (defined by M173 mutation), without further branch defining mutations (M269 and M17) specific to Europeans, accounted for ~40% of the Y-chromosomes in North-Cameroon, while not yet having been sampled elsewhere in Africa. More data from Central and Western Africa are needed to cast light on the origin of such idiosyncratic mtDNA and Y chromosome lineages. Thus, our U5 sequences from the Guinean Fulbe people corroborate Cruciani's hypothesis of a prehistoric migration from Eurasia to West Sub-Saharan Africa, testified by their present day restricted and localised distribution.

http://dienekes.50webs.com/blog/archives/000624.html

K2 represents another migration into Africa
In addition to the ancient back-migration bringing R1*-M173 and mtDNA haplogroups U6 and H into Africa, there appears to be another event during the Paleolithic which brought Eurasians into Africa.

Am. J. Hum. Genet., 74:532-544, 2004
"K2-M70 is believed to have originated in Asia after the emergence of the K-M9 polymorphism (45–30 ky) (Underhill et al. 2001a). As deduced from the collective data (Underhill et al. 2000; Cruciani et al. 2002; Semino et al. 2002; present study), K2-M70 individuals, at some later point, proceeded south to Africa. These chromosomes are seen in relatively high frequencies in Egypt, Oman, Tanzania, Ethiopia, and Morocco and are especially prominent in the Fulbe (18% [Scozzari et al. 1997, 1999]), the highest concentration of this haplogroup found so far."


The puzzle of the formation of modern African diversity is far from solved, including the million-dollar question of the origin and dispersal of the classical Negroids.


From Guinea Bissau Y chromosomes:

 -

The truth is complicated!

//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1a_(Y-DNA)

Haplogroup E1a (Y-DNA)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Haplogroup E1a

Time of origin
[show]40,000 - 45,000 years BP

Place of origin[show]Africa

Ancestor[show]E1
Descendants E1a1, E1a2
Defining mutations M33, M132
Highest frequencies Fulbe (Cameroon) 53%[1], Dogon (Mali) 45%[2], Felupe-Djola (Guinea-Bissau) 34%[3], Papel-Manjaco-Mancanha (Guinea-Bissau) 20%[3], Tali (Cameroon) 20%[1], Hausa (Sudan) 16%[4], Nalú (Guinea-Bissau) 12%[3], Wolof (Senegambia) 12%[2], Balanta (Guinea-Bissau) 12%[3], Fulani (Sudan) 12%[4], Fulbe (Burkina Faso) 10%[1]

In human genetics, Haplogroup E1a (M33) is a human Y-chromosome DNA haplogroup. Haplogroup E1a, along with haplogroup E1b, make up the two main components of the older E1. The E1a clade is divided into two subclades: E1a1 and E1a2.

Contents [hide]
1 E1a
2 Subclades
2.1 Tree
3 References
4 External links

[edit] E1a

E1a Frequencies in select populationsE1a (M33) is found most often in West Africa, and today it is especially common in the region of Mali. One study has found haplogroup E1a-M33 Y-chromosomes in as much as 34% (15/44) of a sample of Malian men. In particular, the Dogon people of Mali have been found to carry haplogroup E1a-M33 with a frequency as high as 45.5% (25/55), making it the most common Y-DNA haplogroup in this population.[2] Another study has found haplogroup E1a-M33 in 15.6% (44/282) of a pool of seven samples of various ethnic groups in Guinea-Bissau.[3] Haplogroup E1a also has been detected among samples obtained from Moroccan Berbers, Sahrawis, Burkina Faso (including E1a-M33/M132(xE1a1-M44) in 2/20 = 10% Fulbe and 2/37 = 5.4% Rimaibe[1]), northern Cameroon (including E1a1-M44 in 9/17 = 53% Fulbe and E1a-M33/M132(xE1a1-M44) in 3/15 = 20% Tali[1]), Senegal (7/139 = 5.0%[5]), Sudan (including 5/32 = 15.6% Hausa and 3/26 = 11.5% Fulani[4]), Egypt, and Calabria (including both Italian and Albanian inhabitants of the region).[6]

The small presence (<4%) of Haplogroup E1a in North Africa and Europe is considered to be due to influence from West Africa, perhaps via the slave trade, because this haplogroup has been found most frequently in samples of West African populations.[citation needed]
 
Posted by Red, White, and Blue + Christian (Member # 10893) on :
 
 -

That's what I mean when I say it is not all E1b1a (formerly E3a).

READ BELOW CAREFULLY:

African American DNA Research Forum
Surprising Results from DNABy:Anita Wills <Show E-Mail>
Date: Friday, 17 February 2006, 1:47 am I am posting some information my brother sent regarding his Y- Chromosome DNA test. It is really quite amazing to see how this is unraveling and showing our genetic links. The original DNA test was taken through Howard, and Family Tree DNA expanded on it.

The K2 Haplogroup is dubbed "Eurasian Man," a non-African male who was born with a unique genetic marker know as M9. Eurasian Man lived in the area of Iran or South-Central Asia 40,000 years ago and from him nearly all North American and East Asian males are descended as are most Europeans and many Indians.

This is from our Paternal line, on my Fathers', Fathers side of the family. We now know that the line originated as a Native who resided in South Carolina. There was always talk and whispers about our grandfather being part Native, but here it is in living color. We did not have a lot of information because my grandfather was orphaned at a young age, and lived with an unrelated family. We have been picking up bits and pieces from relatives who are still in South Carolina. The full panel expanded the markers, and resulted in the information posted above. My brother was trying to see what part of Africa my paternal grandfather came from, not knowing that the line was Native.

One of my paternal aunts took a DNA test through Howard, she is my fathers' sister (my aunt). She took a straight line DNA test which connected my paternal grandmothers female line. The tribe is in Northern Nigeria, and are Fulani. We now have identifed two African Tribes that our ancestors came from.

However, it is expensive, and it is better to have family members chip in, and get an older family member tested. If your grandmother, grandfather, Aunts, and Uncles are still alive, their results are more beneficial.
 
Posted by Red, White, and Blue + Christian (Member # 10893) on :
 
I wrote about this type of thing in:

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=001801;p=1#000000

African American DNA Roots back to the Nile.

They need to test the Y chromosomes of Sierra Leone, Guinea-Conakry and Liberia especially. Diop was right all along. The Egyptians and Nubians went west to the Upper Guinea Coast and African Americans share that legacy. We have a right to be here and claim the Nile.


 -

FINISHED: NO MORE QUESTIONS!
 
Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
 
Folks you can tell that xyyman and Red, White, and Blue + Numbskull both spend way too much of their time and lives in front of the TEE VEE.


Both of you imbecilles need to learn to turn off the idiot box. That is why your posts wreak of stupidity.
 
Posted by astenb (Member # 14524) on :
 
^
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
Among the earliest mentions of their name by Europeans may have be reflected in that of the ancient "Barzu Fulitani" of Constantine (Algeria) apparently mentioned in the time of Julius Honorius as occupants of Mauritania Caesarea.


The original Fulani or those represented by the Woodabe and original Fulani of Macina near Niger are likely the same as the Saharan bovidian pastoralists who extended to the oases next to Egypt including Fayum and Gilf Kebir. They seem to have many cultural traits with the C group population of Nubia, Gilf Kebir and other nearby oases of the Nile. According to Christian Dupuy, author of “The Rock Carvings of the Adrar des Iforas”, the Fulani may have been responsible for central Saharan rock art in which warriors are depicted. He wrote, “Certains des Peuls établis aujourd'hui dans la moyenne vallée du Niger, pourraient être affiliés aux auteurs des gravures de guerriers du Sahara méridional…”

Specialists have also been struck by similarities between the crest headgear and bun hairstyle in pastoral rock art of the Hoggar and Tassili and those of Fulani men and women of Macina/Massina near the Niger.

For the past few centuries some have mentioned that Fulani, especially of Macina of a few centuries ago and the Wodabe shared common hairstyles and other traits with the painted Libyans represented on Seti's tomb. Marion von Offelen is one of the most recent commentators on this issue, In Nomads of the Niger she noted the resemblance of Fulani attire, designs and tattoos to those on “Libyans” on paintings of Seti’s tomb (Van Offelen & Beckwith, 1984, p. 177)

Archeologists Oric Bates had also commented over a century ago on these hairstyle similarities saying “the Fulbe or Fulahs of the Chad-zone sometimes braid the hair in a manner which strikingly recalls the Libyans of the monuments." The Eastern Libyans:An Essay 1914, p. 136.

Some Fulani mixed with the Zaghai or Songhai inhabitants of Takrur and probably they get their tradition of once being Jews from these earlier inhabitants.

There are also some similarities to Cushitic speakers who they were probably ancestral to.

Of course Fulani and partial Fulani people came to the U.S. and in fact the Caribbean and Americas in significant large numbers as is well documented in American records and now thru genetics. Among the best historians who talk about the contributions of the Fulani to America in cattle ranching and other industries is Sterling Stuckey.

Fulani were particularly desirable as domestic and house slave populations as they were thought more less built for intensive outside labor, and other reasons..
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Bogle:
why dont you tell us somemore bedtimes stories about how maimonodes was actually not an anti-black racist, that white jews weren't the dominant element in the trans atlantic slave trade and how white jews in isreal of mesopotamian extraction (the ones who produced the racist talmud) are really good friends of black people in israel.

Actually i agree with that last statement because one told me that the European Jews in Israel spoke Hebrew with east European accents. And I don't think he was too fond of them. Either Maimonides or Spinoza was very racisst but I forget which one. Jews weren't the dominant element in the Atlantic trade - the African ruling classes and many other peoples played a part in the Atlantic slave trade depending on the period. [Roll Eyes]
 
Posted by Young African & Cultured (Member # 19426) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by KING:
Energy

As you can see from this study and from the first MAP Table 1 on the page, Fulani in Niger have E3a at 71% and the Fulani in Nigeria have it at 100%.

Phylogeographic Analysis of Haplogroup E3b (E-M215) Y Chromosomes Reveals Multiple Migratory Events Within and Out Of Africa
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1181964


The case is closed. Fulani are West Africans not East Africans no matter how people dream of being from the East, Fulani are from the West.

Peace

I came across a genetic study made by some Sudanese geneticist where he was pointing out the lack of typical Niger-Congo markers among Fulani living in Sudan. Fulani immigration to Sudan being recent to my knowledge, I tend to believe that they recently brought most of their gene pool directly from West Africa. Though it has not been mentioned by the author, I tend to believe it may be due to intermarriage with Hausa in Northern Nigeria. What are your opinions on this?
 
Posted by Young African & Cultured (Member # 19426) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Wally:
Yoruba / Egyptian

a-dua / dua or tua = "prayer"
a-gu-ta(n) / ha-khu-ptah
a-ke / qe-h = "axe"
a-ru-gbo / ru-ba = "evening of ba i.e. later stage of life"
abo / ab = "female"
ade / ate-f = "crown/plumes"
ako / ak = "male"
ala / ala = "boundary - obatala==king of nile"
amon / amon = "to hide/concealed"
apoti / apoti = "pot; cup"
bu buru / bu huru = "evil"
enen / enen = "no"
fahaka / fahaka = "silvery fish"
hen / hen = "yes; nod head"
hor / hor = "elevated"
i-re / re = "that which is good, goodness"
ibatan / bahtan = "compatriot"
inoki / noki-t = "fabulous beast"
ko / qo-t = "build"
miri / miri = "water" dazzle(of water)
naprit / naprit = "seed"
nu (noo) / nu (noo) = = "to wipe, erase"
o-ni / au-nu = = "crocodile"
oba = king / oba = "to direct, captain"
oni = king / oni = "osiris' ethnic name"
ran / ran = "name"
riri / ririt = "dirty (like a hippo)"
sadu / zaddu = "abode of the dead"
saluga / salug = "god of wealth"
wombia / nubia = "you, a nubian" - derogatory - "a covetous person"
wu / uu = "swell"


The Yoruba phrase "apa amu sua", which means "an unthrifty person" is derived from three Ancient Egyptian words:

Apa - "he who belongs to the house i.e. servant"

Amu - one of the Asiatic tribes engaged in domestic service in Ancient Egypt

Sua (Sua-nit), a nome in Ancient Egypt.

The phrase is a comtemptuous term which preserves the idea of the wastefulness of foreign domestic servants in Ancient Egypt who hardly knew the value of crockery and other articles they sometimes smashed to pieces.

The word "bu" in AE means "place". This word survives in Yoruba vocabulary:

"ki bu e e" means "what place are you going?"
"ibudo" means "a place to settle"
"ibusun" means "a place to sleep"
"ibu-joko" means "a place to sit"
"ibu-so" means "a station"
"a-bu-le" means "premises"

The connection bewteen the two languages is so close that it is quite possible for one to help in determining the siginifcance of words whose meanings have not yet been definitely ascertained or have become obscure in the other!

There is a survival of customs

- Religious beliefs. Most of the prinicpal gods are well known: Osiris, Isis, Horus, Shu, Sut, Thoth, Kepera, Amon, Anu, Khonsu, Khnum, Khopri, Hathor, Sokaris, Ra, Seb, the 4 elmental deities etc.

-- Ra survives in name only, but the words Irawo (star), rara (swear by Ra), rara (dwarfs - Ancient Egyptian mythological Tanka dwarfs that hailed the daily arrival of the sun-god) preserve the idea.

-- The idea of a future life and that of judgement after death

-- The deification of Kings.

-- The importance attached to names. A man's name is supposed to have a real force in determining his character. Names are not given haphazardly, but acording to prevailing circumstances at the time of birth.

-- Strong belief in a future life. The Ancient Egyptian and Yoruba ideas are identical. The Yoruba word for the verb "too die" is Ku, i.e. to become a luminous spirit. The Egyptian word Khu, or the luminous part of a man, "is a spark of that divine intelligence which pervades the world and to which it must return"

-- Polygamy - similarity in the position of the first wife and her rights and privileges

-- Burial customs. Previous to burial the corpse in Yorubaland is dressed like the Egyptian mummy. In the case of the burial of the king, the king slaves must be buried with him, and his Chief Officers and wives must die on the day of the burial. The king will require the services of his dependents in the next world. The British influence has put an end to such practices. Ushebti figures are now substitued for living persons.

This is not serious scholarship
 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Young African & Cultured:
quote:
Originally posted by KING:
Energy

As you can see from this study and from the first MAP Table 1 on the page, Fulani in Niger have E3a at 71% and the Fulani in Nigeria have it at 100%.

Phylogeographic Analysis of Haplogroup E3b (E-M215) Y Chromosomes Reveals Multiple Migratory Events Within and Out Of Africa
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1181964


The case is closed. Fulani are West Africans not East Africans no matter how people dream of being from the East, Fulani are from the West.

Peace

I came across a genetic study made by some Sudanese geneticist where he was pointing out the lack of typical Niger-Congo markers among Fulani living in Sudan. Fulani immigration to Sudan being recent to my knowledge, I tend to believe that they recently brought most of their gene pool directly from West Africa. Though it has not been mentioned by the author, I tend to believe it may be due to intermarriage with Hausa in Northern Nigeria. What are your opinions on this?
I think languages don't have chromosomes.
 
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
 
Young African & Cultured

Whatup Young [Smile] , Let me state if the study you are speaking about is the one from Hassan, Then what I can say is that the Fulani from Sudan that he uses are recent immigrants from Cameroon.

Thats why they have the R1 Hap Group like the Hausa from Nigeria. If we know anything about the Fulani and Cameroon in general is that There is a High percent of Africans with R1 hap group, some even reaching 90%+. Hassans ideas is that Fulani have an extra origin outside of Africa because of this, but we know better.

Read this about the Fula from Keita:

Letter to the Editor: Commentary on the Fulani—History, Genetics, and Linguistics, an Adjunct to Hassan et al., 2008

AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY(2010)

Keita et al.

In their recent work, Hassan et al. (2008) describe and analyze patterns of biallelic Y chromosome variation in diverse groups currently resident in the Republic of Sudan. They successfully historicize many of the populations in their study and do not interpret data in static racio-typological terms, something to be rejected (Keita and Kittles, 1997), and largely avoid the problems noted by MacEachern (2000, 2001) and Pluciennik (2001). Hassan et al. show the human biogeography of Sudan to have been impacted by Arabic speakers and other non- Africans who arrived primarily in the Islamic period from Asia via Egypt and interacted in various ways with local peoples (Cunnison, 1966; Haaland, 1969; Bayoumi et al., 1985; Bayoumi and Saha, 1987; Saha and El Seikh (sic), 1987; Holl, 2003). Their analysis documents the introgression of M89 lineages into certain populations of northeast Africa, where the indigenous haplogroups are A, B, and E, thus illustrating biological ‘‘levels of history’’— to borrow a concept from Braudel (1982)—which may be useful in thinking about diachronic changes that can occur in populations/regions (Keita, 2005b).

Genetic data have long been used in approaches to explore population history, and their value has generally been recognized at some level, but ‘‘at the same time there are potential problems with these techniques’’ (MacEachern, 2001, p 357). Some of these problems include the over extrapolation of often-limited genetic data, treating gene history as ethnic/population history, assuming deep and near essentialist historical continuity to groups/populations bearing particular names (whether emic or etic), and the incomplete incorporation of data, theory, and arguments from other disciplines such as history, ethnography, historical linguistics, history of ideas, and archaeology into the research design, analyses, and interpretations. Crude empiricism and reductionism have to be avoided in explaining and exploring the biocultural origins of ethnic groups/populations (MacEachern, 2001).

We are interested in exploring the suggestion, made by Hassan et al. (2008, p 321), that the Fulani, as a people— an ethnos, may have had a non-African origin. One of us (FJ) has worked extensively among the Fulani of Liberia, Cameroon, and Nigeria and has some field experience of their ideas of identity, religion, marital beliefs, and practices, which could have a bearing on genetics.

The Fulani number some 30 million live in 17 countries between the Atlantic to Red Sea coasts (Cerny et al., 2006) and are known by a variety of names: e.g., Peul, Fulbe, Fula, Fellata, and Pulaar [also noted in Murdock (1959), MacEachern (2000), and Cerny et al. (2006)]. They call themselves Fulbe, the plural of Pullo in Fulfulde, their language (Greenberg, 1949). Some are urbanites and others cattle pastoralists Stenning, 1957). McIntosh (1998) suggests that the Fulani identity ‘‘crystallized’’ (differentiated) in Futa Toro in the Senegambia region, among populations who migrated from the increasingly arid later Holocene Sahara, analogous to earlier migrations into the Nile Valley (Kuper and Kropelin, 2006). Archaeological evidence from other west African regions is interpreted as indicating either migration or influence from the later Holocene Sahara (e.g. Davies, 1967; Casey, 2005). Researchers in West African history and ethnography note the migration of Fulani from the Senegambia across the Sahel belt from west to east (e.g. Stenning, 1957; Willis, 1978; Hasan and Ogot, 1992; Vansina, 1992). The Fulani are mentioned in older historical works from West Africa [e.g., Sadi’s Tarikh as Sudan, see Hunwick (2003)] and are notable as 18th and 19th century Islamic religious reformers, scholars, and state builders (Vansina, 1992; Boyd, 1994; Hiskett, 1994). There are no documented ancient Fulani communities in Asia.

Hassan et al.’s (2008, p 321) suggestion of a non-African origin for the Fulani is a direct extrapolation based on the predominance (53.8%) of the R1M173 lineage (an M89 lineage) in a single sample (n 5 26) from Sudan. However, analyses of other samples of Fulani give different results. Here, Y chromosome lineages are discussed in terms of their major markers, which will be understood to include downstream derivatives. For example, M35 will be used to mean both M35* and its derivatives M35/M81, M35/78, etc. In one sample from Guinea Bissau (n 5 59), the markers and frequencies are as follows: M2 275.6%, M35 213.6%, M33 26.8%, and 1.7% each of M75, M91, and M89-derived lineages (Rosa et al., 2007). In another study, based primarily on TaqI 49a, f variants, which can be ‘‘translated’’ into biallelic counterparts, a Fulani (called Peul) sample (n 5 54) from Burkina Faso has these frequencies: M2%–50%, M35 222.1% lineages (Lucotte et al., 2007). A small sample (n 5 20) of Fulbe from one area of the Cameroons has the M33 (E1) lineage at a frequency of 52% (Scozzari et al., 1997, 1999). Hassan et al.’s sample also has a high percentage of M35 (34.6%). The mix of M2 and M35 lineages, both derivatives of P2 (or PN2) (see dendrogram in Hassan et al.), may reflect the sahara/sahel having served as an interaction zone of populations— a metapopulation which shuffled lineages—in the wetter periods of the early Holocene (Keita, 2005a; Kuper and Kropelin, 2006). The M2 lineage is sometimes almost characterized as being found only associated with the Niger Congo language phylum (Hassan et al., 321), of which Bantu is a subgroup. M2 lineages are found in populations languages from non-Bantu Niger Congo, Nilo-Saharan, and Afro-Asiatic phyla [see discussion in Keita (2005a)], and in high frequencies in West Africa including the Senegambia region Scozzari, 1997, 1999; Lucotte et al., 2007; Rosa et al., 2007).


Other genetic data are of interest. Recent mtDNA studies of the Fulani suggest their having broad representation of African haplotypes (specifically, the L megahaplogroup and U6), not found so far in large frequencies outside Africa other than in the various diasporic descendant groups (forced or voluntary) (e.g., Cerny, 2006; Ely et al., 2006, 2007; Rosa et al., 2004; Jackson nd1). Reviews of classical genetic markers also indicate that the Fulani of West Africa are not an anomalous group in that region (see e.g., Hiernaux, 1975) from a narrow biogeographical perspective.

Language affiliation has been frequently documented to parallel genetic patterns in West Africa (Jackson, 1986), although there is no obligatory causation or correlation of language and biology. Throughout their geographical range, the Fulani have retained their language Fulfulde, a member of the West Atlantic or Atlantic-Congo subgroup of the Niger-Congo phylum or quasi-stock (Greenberg, 1963; Nichols, 1997; Williamson and Blench, 2000). The closest relatives of Fulfulde are Serer and Wolof, which
are restricted to the Senegambia region of West Africa (Greenberg, 1949; Williamson and Blench, 2000). The linguistic evidence is consistent with the known movements of Fulani from the Senegambia-Guinea region.

The diversity of Y chromosome haplotypes found in
Fulani samples is highly variable and is likely explained by ancient and recent events. The more recent political activities of Fulani in the 18th and 19th centuries led to the Fulbeization of various peoples, a process which had not ended by the mid-20th century (Hendrixson, 1980; David and Voas, 1981; Schultz, 1984). The frequencies in Hassan et al.’s sample are consistent with a secondary migration from the Cameroons where the Fulani are known to have bioculturally assimilated various groups (Schultz, 1984), and where there is a notable frequency of R1*M173 in published samples of various ethnolinguistic groups, including some Fulbe (Scozzari, 1997; Cruciani et al., 2002). Genetic drift could also have had a role. Space does not permit further discussion of R1*M173, which has a higher frequency in central Africa than in the Near East (Flores et al., 2005), and which may have come to Africa in a back migration (Cruciani, 2002) during the Late Stone Age, before the emergence of current or ancient African ethnic/linguistic groups/ peoples. R1*M173 became part of an African biocultural evolutionary history, perhaps shaped in part in a later Saharan metapopulation, and apparently later dispersed (along with other lineages) into the ancestral populations of various regions. The evidence supports the Fulbe having emerged in Africa.

It would be of interest in the case of Hassan et al.’s sample to know its members recent family histories, to what degree it was a distinct breeding population or random sample, oral and written histories, paths of migration, clan affiliation, intermarriage patterns, number of loan words in its dialect of Fulfulde (if a community), mitochondrial DNA profile, its subsistence practices (and any changes), and profiles of other Fulani samples from Sudan. Together, these would help in the construction of a narrative of the biocultural history of Fulbe populations in the Sudan. In general, efforts at ethno-population history may benefit from considering when (1) genetic data should be subsumed to, and interpreted in terms of, chronologies or narratives or social structures established by ethnology, climatology, archaeology, history, and linguistics, (2) genetic evidence should be the primary data used to create the framework or narrative, or (3) both nongenetic and genetic information should be used equally in a process of ‘‘reciprocal illumination.’’ A temporal framework is crucial in such work. Ethnogenesis (the emergence of cultural identity) and biogenesis (the emergence of biological traits) are not causal nor necessarily co-terminous or correlated. Populations can change biology and/or culture over time.


So from reading what Keita has to say about this subject, I am firmly in the camp of those that see the Sudanese Fula as Cameroonian immigrants.

I also know that Fula from Nigeria are 100% Elb1a so that also proves there links to West Africa. Sadly though, because Fulbe have features not dubbed "West African" people make up all kind of extra African stories to quell there ego on why a people with Aqualine Features and looser hair live in the Heart of West Africa. People even claim that the Fula adopted there language and that they spoke an AfroAsiatic language before. Which is just pure jokes Bahahahaahahah. It's also called Fulani Madness.

Peace
 


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