Talk:Islamic views on anal sex

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Blank Space in Arabic & English Text for Anus[edit]

Blank Space in Arabic & English Text with three dots in Bukhari Hadith http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/060.sbt.html#006.060.050 is for Anus and is written in all translatons. "It means one should approach his wife in his anus". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rana Ammar Mazhar (talkcontribs) 17:41, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Images as Evidence of Issue[edit]

The three images of pages of actual books are concrete proof of the issues, do nor remove images. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rana Ammar Mazhar (talkcontribs) 17:28, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Article is extensively sourced[edit]

Article is extensively sourced. Deletion should only take place after discussion at AFD. If some scholars disapprove, then the subject IS controversial, & so seems noteworthy.

Rana Ammar Mazhar 18:07, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

This is to follow up on what Ranna Ammar Mazhar mentioned. Rana, I believe you well covered the aspect of anal sex except for commenting on the Ahadith that we keep hearing about prophit Muhamed prohibiting anal sex. What is your take on that?

Another genearl point to all muslims: Please stop differentiating between Sunni and Shia. People all over the world are unifying and looking for things that make unity, and some of us are still looking for reasons to continue fighting... does this make sense? You can not reject an opinion because it belongs to shia sect. However, you can comment on the content of the opinion.

We are all together one OMMAH, and the difference in opinion is Rahmmah. At least we all believe in the same book. Let us be smarter than that!

Regards, A muslim (neither Sunni nor Sheai)

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.0.231.125 (talk) 01:25, August 30, 2007 (UTC)

The sources are not authoritative. They are mostly from Shia hate sites or Pervez's criticism of Ahadith. One needs to do some better work to prove that anal sex is indeed controversial otherwise it is straightforward prohibited.... Farhan80.78.136.115 12:50, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Answer: The both sources “Sahih Al-Bukhari” & “Usool al- Kafi” are authoritative. Sistani source is not a Shia hate sites. Pervez's criticism of Ahadith is not wrong. Abu-Dawud criticism is authoritative. It is a very important topic, if one can read Urdu & Arabic text in image. This particular saying is well known.

I wonder what Sistani thinks? I am oddly amused that he finds playing chess to be forbidden debauchery but is OK with anal sex. [1].

It is precisely to avoid having too many children that some Muslims practice anal sex. One man, writing to the Islamic Q&A website, says that his wife doesn't have any problem with it. "I think this is the best way of family planning instead of using condoms," the man writes, though he adds that many of his friends have told him otherwise. [2]

Thanks.202.5.148.4 04:21, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Question: Please help me for fining the truth. In Bukhari sharif hadesh no-4170 & 4171,said that anal sex is halal/jayaj.But you said (in mail a & q)that its haram.Now i'm confusied. I want to know what's the truth?Is anal sex haram or not? Please response my quetion [3].

Here the point to be noted is that Abu-Dawud denies the Bukhari sharif hadesh no-4170 & 4171. But the Imam Sb. did not answer the real question about Bukhari sharif hadesh no-4170 & 4171 in his answer at [4].

202.5.148.4 17:35, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Rana Ammar Mazhar 19:08, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Please check all the references given. No one can prove with honesty that the references are wrong.

Some Muslims knows that Anal Sex is permissible according to Hadith of Bukhari [5] Some Muslim clerics say Anal Sex is a cool form of contraceptive.[6]. Some Muslims practice Anal Sex for family planning due to permission of Hadith of Bukhari and there is a FATWA in permission of anal and oral sex between wife husband in Saudia.[7].

“Narrated Ahmed (one of the top Islamic scholars) that if a man was unable to control his sexual desire during the fasting of Ramadan and he wanted to ejaculate in a manner that does not ruin his fasting (such as masturbating with his own hands or massaging his penis in the body of his wife or his slave girl), he is allowed to masturbate with the hand of his child slave-girl or the hand of a non-Muslim woman and he is allowed to put his penis into any area (e.g. anal or oral) but not in their vagina.” Baddaa Al-Fawaed (The pearls of the greatest benefits) for Ibn Al- Kaim : Bab Al-Itnab Fi Al-Igaba (Chapter The In-Depth answer)- Section of Istimnaa (Masturbation). [8].

“Your wives are your tilth; go, then, do your tilth (sex) wherever you desire … and do some preparatory steps (foreplay) first. (Quran 2: 223) One of the disciples of Mohammed said in the explanation of this verse “Do you know the reason for this verse or revelation?” The other person said “No.” The disciple continued “It is revealed to allow for making sex with women in their “Dubur” anus (anal sex)” … and Ibn Kumar said this verse is to allow Muslims to have sex in the “Dubur” or anus of women.” Fath Al-Bary Ala Sharh Sahih Al-Buchary Book of Tafseer (explanation) of the Qur’an chapter, implies that it is permitted to have sex with women wherever you like. (Note: generally, Shia Muslims allow anal sex while Sunni Muslims based on Hadith of Mohammed do not allow it. [9].

Anal sex is an issue about which Islamic scholars had many views. It must be differentiated between the sin of the people of Lut, which was between same sex, and this matter which is between husband and wife who are allowed every enjoyment between them, unless we have strong evidence that it is not allowed. Many famous Sunni scholars said that anal sex between husband and wife is allowed. Among these Sunni scholars were: Abdullah Bin Omar, Imam Malik Bin Anas, Zaid Bin Aslam and Naafe? (Al Mughni, by Ibn Qudamah Al-Nisaa?. Same reference mentions that Malik bin Anas used to say about anal sex with the wife: (I do not know any one whom can be trusted in his religion, saying that it is Haraam). These are some more references about allowing anal sex in Sunni books: Saheeh Al-Bukhari; 6: 35, Tafseer Al-Tabari; 2: 233, Siraajul Mureeden by Abu Bakr Ibn Al-Arabi in Tafseer (Fa?atoo Harthakom Anna Shi?tom). Fath Al-Baari, 8:152, Musnad Abi Ya?la; 2: 355, Sharh Ma?ami Al-Aathaar; 3:40-45, Al-Durr Al-Manthoor by Syootee; 1: 638, Minhaaj Al-Sunnah by Ibn Taymeyyah; 2:97 and Al-Majmoo?a by Nawawi; 18: 100. According to Alul Bayt (AS), anal sex with the wife is not Haraam, but it becomes Haraam (forbidden) when she is in her menses, or if she does not agree to it. Still it is disliked (Makrooh) as Ibn Abi Ya?foor asked Imam Ja?far Al-Sadiq (AS) about anal sex with the wife, Imam said: Not Haraam, but I don?t like you to do it.) Wasaa?el Al-Shia; 20: 147. Quranic evidences that anal sex with the wife is allowed is mentioned in a saying of Imam Ja?far Al-Sadiq (AS) when somebody mentioned anal sex with the wife, Imam said: I know no verse in Quran allowing it but one verse (Are you doing anal sex with men leaving your women?) (2: 223). (Wasaa?el Al-Shia: 20: 148 and Tafseer Al-Ayyashi; 1: 111 & 331.) In spite of being allowed, but it is disliked (Makrooh), as the Hadeeth said: No one does it but the lowest of our followers.

Narrated Abdullah bin Abi Ya'foor: I asked Abu Abdullah about approaching women thru their anus, he said: No Problem. He then recited: 2:223 Your women are as tilth unto you, so approach your tilth when (or how) ye will ." [Tafseer al-Ayyashi, vol.1, p.110; Bihaar al-Anwaar Baqir al-Majlisi, vol.23, p.98; al-Burhaan fee Tafseer al-Qur'an: Hashim al-Bahraani, vol.1, p.219; Wasaa'il al-Shi'a: al-Hur al-Amily, vol.3, chpater 73: An-Nikaah wa Aadabuh] [allaahuakbar.net/shiites/KAFI.HTM] AL-KAFI

Prophetic Commentary on the Qur'an (Tafseer of the Prophet (pbuh))

Narrated Nafi': Whenever Ibn 'Umar recited the Qur'an, he would not speak to anyone till he had finished his recitation. Once I held the Qur'an and he recited Surat-al-Baqara from his memory and then stopped at a certain Verse and said, "Do you know in what connection this Verse was revealed? " I replied, "No." He said, "It was revealed in such-and-such connection." Ibn 'Umar then resumed his recitation. Nafi added regarding the Verse:--"So go to your tilth when or how you will" Ibn 'Umar said, "It means one should approach his wife in .." (Volume 6, Book 60, Number 50:).[10]

وفي المغني ج7ص225 : ( ورويت إباحته عن ابن عمر وزيد بن أسلم ونافع ومالك ، وروي عن مالك أنه قال : ما أدركت أحد أقتدي به في ديني يشك في أنه حلال . وأهل العراق من أصحاب مالك ينكرون ذلك واحتج من أجله بقول الله عز وجل {نِسَاؤُكُمْ حَرْثٌ لَكُمْ فَأْتُوا حَرْثَكُمْ أَنَّى شِئْتُمْ}(البقرة/223) وقوله سبحانه {وَالَّذِينَ هُمْ لِفُرُوجِهِمْ حَافِظُونَ إِلاَّ عَلَى أَزْوَاجِهِمْ أوْ مَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُهُمْ فَإِنَّهُمْ غَيْرُ مَلُومِينَ}(المؤمنون/5-6) ) .

THIS IS IN THE GREAT SUNNI BOOK AL-MUGHNI BI IBN KUDADMA : THE PERMISSIBILITY WAS NARRATED ON IBN OMAR , ZAID IBN ASLAM AND NAFI'I AND MALIK : AND IT'S BEEN BNARRATED ON MALIK THAT HE SAID : I NEVER SPOKE TO SOMEONE I DEEM A ROLE MODEL IN RELIGION WHO DOUBTS THAT IT'S HALAL. [11].

Anal Oral Intercourse & Shia Site[edit]

Answer by Rana Ammar Mazhar 18:24, 3 June 2007 (UTC):

B. Techniques of Foreplay:

As far as the methods of mutual stimulation in foreplay are concerned, the Shariah allows the husband and the wife to see, kiss, touch, smell and stimulate any part of each other's body. Therefore, oral sex, as it is known, is allowed. Imam Musa al-Kazim (a.s.) was once asked, "Can a person kiss his wife's vagina?" The Imam said, "No problem."

The only restriction is that no foreign object should be used. The restriction on the use of foreign objects is based on the following hadith. Ubaydullah bin Zurarah says that he had an old neighbor who owned a young slave-girl. Because of his old age, he could not fully satisfy the young slave-girl during sexual intercourse. She would therefore ask him to place his fingers in her vagina, as she liked it. The old man complied with her wishes even though he did not like this idea. So he requested Ubaydullah to ask Imam Ali ar-Reza (a.s.) about it. When Ubaydullah asked the Imam about it, the Imam said, "There is no problem as long as he uses any part of his own body upon her, but he should not use anything other than his body on her."

Though masturbation (i.e., self-stimulation of one's own sexual organ till emission of semen or orgasm) is not allowed, in the case of married persons, there is no problem if the wife stimulates her husband's penis till the emission of semen or the husband stimulates his wife's vagina till orgasm. This is allowed because it does not come under "self-stimulation;" it is stimulation by a lawful partner.

C. Sexual Intercourse:

Is there any particular position for sexual intercourse, which is forbidden in Islam? No! As far as the basic coital positions are concerned, there are no restrictions. The term 'basic coital positions' denotes the positions known as the man above, face to face, woman above face to face; side position, face to face; rear-entry position in which the husband penetrates the vagina from the rear. Actually, the Shariah has left it on the husband and the wife to explore and experiment as they wish. However, it is makruh to adopt a standing position, or to face the Qiblah or keep it on the backside during the intercourse. It is advisable to refrain from the acrobatic positions given by some sexologists of the East and the West, which might even cause physical harm.

Remember, the basic rule is mutual pleasure and flexibility. If one partner does not like a particular position, then the other should yield to his or her feelings. It is highly emphasized that at the commencement of intercourse the partners should recite Bismillaahir Rah'maanir Rah'eem (In the name of Allah the Beneficent, the Merciful).

D. Anal Intercourse:

The opinions of our mujtahids vary on the permissibility of anal intercourse. The majority of the Shi'ah mujtahids have derived two conclusions: (1) that anal intercourse is not Haraam but strongly disliked (karahatan shadidah) provided the wife agrees to it. (2) and if she does not agree to it, then all mujtahids say that it is precautionarily wajib to refrain from it.

However, during the last decade of his life, Ayatullah al-Khu'i departed from the majority view and gave the ruling that it was precautionarily wajib to abstain from anal intercourse no matter whether the wife agrees to it or not.

Maulana Sayyid Muhammad Rizvi says, "I would strongly advise against anal intercourse," and quotes the saying of Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq and Imam Ali ar-Reza (a.s.) about anal intercourse: "Woman is a means of your pleasure, therefore do not harm her." [12].

It looks like Grand Ayatholla Ali al-Sistani changed his mind about anal sex: [www.sistani.org/english/book/48/2172/]

Anal Intercourse & Sunni Site[edit]

[21] "(Narrated) Ali bin Ibraaheem from his father from al-Nufaly from As-Sukoony from (Imam) Abu Abdallah [as] said: Amierul-Mu'mineen (Ali) [as] said: (al-Luwaat ma doon ad-dubur, wad-dubur huwal-kufr) Sodomy is in (anything) other than dubur (anal sex), for dubur [has multi meanings] is actually the Kufr (disbelief)". The commentator on al-Kafi wrote: "It is possible to understand (from the statement) that Sodomizing (a man) is permissible" (Al-Kafi (fil Furoo'): Book of Marriage: Chapter of Sodomy, narration 3, vol.5, p.544 but still it is strictly forbidden for men to have anal intercouse as Hadith says "if a man rides (has intercourse) with a (an other) man , the throne of Allah shakes (from Allah's anger)"

[23] "(Narrated) al-Hussain bin Ali bin Yaqteen said: I asked Abul-Hassan about the permissibility for the man to have anal sex with women, he said: It was made halal (permissible) in the Book of Allah, when (Prophet) Lot said: 11:78 Here are my daughters, they are purer for you and he knew it was not the vagina they were after." [Tafseer al-Ayyashi, vol.1, p.157; Bihaar al-Anwaar vol.21, p.98; Tafseer al-Burhaan vol.2, p.230]

  • [allaahuakbar.net/allaahu_akbar.htm]

Ijma & Bukhari Hadith[edit]

Ijma of the 2nd-3rd century Sunni scholars is against, but Bukhari Hadith No. 50 is against the Ijma and is not taken out of context, reference. The Blank Space in Arabic & in English translation is for anus. The next Hadith No. 51 is not related to anus as children are not born out of anus.

Narrated Nafi': Whenever Ibn 'Umar recited the Qur'an, he would not speak to anyone till he had finished his recitation. Once I held the Qur'an and he recited Surat-al-Baqara from his memory and then stopped at a certain Verse and said, "Do you know in what connection this Verse was revealed? " I replied, "No." He said, "It was revealed in such-and-such connection." Ibn 'Umar then resumed his recitation. Nafi added regarding the Verse:--"So go to your tilth when or how you will" Ibn 'Umar said, "It means one should approach his wife in .." (Volume 6, Book 60, Number 50), http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/060.sbt.html#006.060.050.

If the Blank Space was for vagina, it could not be blank.

For further details & confirmation, read Urdu page "Anal Sex and Islam" by Dr. Syed Mubin Akhtar at [8] & [9].

Tempering of on Line Facts[edit]

The tempering of the on line fact is against the neutral policy.

Added tags[edit]

Hi, I just tagged this article with contradiction, POV and cleanup tags. It's a bit of a mess right now and reads more like Islamic literature or propaganda, rather than an encyclopedic entry. Here's my reasoning:

Contradiction[edit]

There are a couple of places where an author has added a statement to "correct" the previous statement. This means we now have two conflicting statements. Some consensus needs to be achieved, or we need to find some other way of expressing the two differing without blatant contradiction.

POV[edit]

Ststements like: "The wife has to resist this evil action and refuse to respond to her husband's desire to have anal sex." are completely POV. There are plenty more like this too.

Cleanup[edit]

There are various bolded paragraphs, which I believe should be avoided. There are also confusing statements, such as:

However, there are Ahadith which allows (anus, in Arabic Dubur: “ فِي الدُّبُر ” ) sex, one in Sunni sect and two in Shia sect. In Sunni sect, a high rated Hadith Book Sahih Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60: Prophetic Commentary on the Qur'an (Tafseer of the Prophet), Hadith No. 50, [6] allows it, its authenticity and anal sex concept is conformed by a Hadith of Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 11: Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Hadith Number 2159 [7], whereas the said Hadith itself disapproves along with many other Ahadith in other books except Sahih Bukhari.

Straussian (talk) 04:48, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Sources[edit]

Most sources in this article are primary, and hence likely violate OR. I ask users to provide secondary sources for the material, and to source all material.Bless sins (talk) 15:47, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I am not fond of the sources provided for the Sistani position. What's the deal, exactly? The websites linked to quote him without themselves providing a reference. Mrbluesky (talk) 14:44, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
I've removed the sources and added the {{fact}} tag there. Hoping someone will come up with something on the statement in Anal Sex and Shia Islam InshaAllah. Peace 'Abd el 'Azeez (talk) 05:57, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
I've got another thing to say about Sources, this one's for Imam Maliki View. There are four sources there, of which the first leads to a website named tolueislam and the second to ourbeacon. TolueIslam is a site about the views of a certain G.A.Pervez (A highly controversial person who denied the Hadith i.e. the teachings of the Prophet Muhammed PBUH. See Ghulam Ahmed Pervez on Wikipedia; besides, Imam Maliki and Imam Bukhari were both renowned Hadith scholars). Quoting Pervez, (who himself denied these two scholars' authenticity of Hadith,) on their views about this topic simply falls under the category POV. OurBeacon too seems POV because of the fact that it is run by someone called Dr. Shabbir; his personal views on this topic cannot be taken to be those of Islam; MOREOVER the PDF reference from his website for the second link (i.e. for Imam Bukhari) leads to a HTTP404 Page. The third reference (i.e. the one next to (eelaaj) is licit.) too leads to a 404 Page. The last reference is from a site called TheModernReligion () however the article it refers to doesn't provide any references of its own and more importantly it DOESN'T mention Imam Maliki's name anywhere at all! It says "Hanbali books mention that it is lawful for a husband to < suppressed to save space by elAzeez >. They also mention that while anal sex is absolutely unlawful, it is lawful to place a finger on the anus as long as it does not penetrate.". I am thus removing the section in its entirety until someone comes forth by with some reliable sources for these claims. (InshaAllah) Peace. 'Abd el 'Azeez (talk) 07:01, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

What the...[edit]

There is a lot of unreferenced material, The section "Ijma & Bukhari Hadith" has a reference that forbids anal sex. Similarly, "Quran Commentators View" section has a reference that is opposite to what the content states. Section "Anal sex and Tafseer Tabari" rests on the last two words of the arabic script:فِي الدُّبُر, meaning "in anus", but the joke is that these words DO NOT appear EITHER in the Arabic text, or in the Arabic section of the Urdu translation. Similarly "Anal Sex and Tafseer of Sahih Bukhari Hadith" and "Anal sex and Hanafi sect" simply refer to the some funny image where there is Urdu translation of the Hadith. Having Urdu translation of a Hadith is an interesting way of proving legality of anal sex. Imagine being presented with an Urdu translation of, say, Romeo and Juliet which states (in Urdu) that Romeo was the woman, and Juliet was the man. If you have access to the original material, you can verify it. These sections will be removed. The original Arabic Hadiths are pretty clear, I think. Unflavoured (talk) 07:31, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Blank space is a blank space... reverting. And you should place ur comment at the bottom of the talk page. Unflavoured (talk) 09:43, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

ERM WHAT THE HELL...

please can ppl not add their thoughts if they have no references of proof. Gives wrong impression of Islam if ur wrong.

Looks like this has been a problem article for some time. There's masses of original research and dubious material here - and I don't believe any of it is salvageable. I think stubbing is the best option and using well-sourced material to provide a brief summary which can be added to. ITAQALLAH 19:45, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Cleanup[edit]

This page has recently had the cleanup it needed. The English was crap and there were swathes of POV and non-English quotes that did not add anything to the understanding of the topic. I'm by no means against improving and expanding the text but please no wholesale return to the rubbish version that was here originally. Let's not have and edit war and pester admins please, can we discuss changes/additions on here first? Cheers Akerbeltz (talk) 11:42, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

changes[edit]

I have just removed the first reference (dead link) and also replaced the translation of the ayah with that of PICKTHAL found in the given link because it wasn't accurate --41.234.7.23 (talk) 03:27, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

In correct article.[edit]

This article have a lot of incorrect information. In Islam, Anal sex is prohibited among all Muslim scholars. So, I don't know what is the exact procedure to do that, this article need a significant modifications.129.74.162.158 (talk) 14:48, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

<sigh> I'm taking this article off my watchlist, too many POV pushers and too much of a who-cares topic. Sorry folks. Akerbeltz (talk) 16:01, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Merge issue[edit]

This article shouldn't merge with that oral sex related article, because, anal sex isn't an oral sex anyway. It's a penetrative sex, though a toy can use sometimes. But it's not Oral.T@nv!r_ (Talk | Contributions) 03:46, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Refuting the Controversial claims about verse 2:223[edit]

The verse 2:223 is very clear it talks about allowing virtually any POSITION of vaginal intercourse,and NOT any form of sex.

The heart of the debate on this subject of verse 2:223 all centered around the meaning of the "word حرث harth commonly translated as tillth" For anyone who has even a basic understanding of the Arabic language and its basic vocabularies would know that it refer only to the vaginal intercourse where offspring's production can only be possible to take place, and that is only in the female’ reproductive organ.

Verse 2:223 meaning that Women like the tilth of the soil that has the proper structure, and nutrients to grow and incubate healthy offspring from a fertilized egg by the male sperm.

I can't comment on the subtleties of Arabic but from an anthropological POV, there are tranditional belief systems that hold that vaginal intercourse is not the only way of getting pregnant (e.g. the belief that rectal intercourse can lead to blood babies). These of course are "myths" but when analysing an old text, I'd suggest caution in applying what we now think of as "common sense". Akerbeltz (talk) 16:34, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
I added OR tag to the article because many of the sources are primary sources, notwithstanding , this is a very relevant hadith: "Narrated AbuHurayrah: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: He who has intercourse with his wife through her anus is accursed." Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 11, Number 2157 [13] Sole Soul (talk) 09:54, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Is this passage logical?[edit]

"QURAN allows only and any position of vaginal intercourse, "Your women are tilth for you (to cultivate/to bring offspring) so go to your tilth as ye will, and send (good deeds) before you for your souls, and fear Allah, and know that ye will (one day) meet Him."(PICKTHAL translation)"

I can't see that the quote from the Quran actually does permit only and any position of vaginal intercourse - it tells good Muslims to have sex with women, but it doesn't say that this is the only sex allowed. Something better than this is needed.

Because this passage is so weak a reference to anal sex (in fact it doesn't mention anal sex at all), I've added two extra paragraphs which do go into the matter, both in terms of the relgious teachings and actual practice in the contemporary Islamic world. I suggest that the passage above be deleted in favour of these paragraphs.PiCo (talk) 05:20, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Makes sense. The quote above seems to be against the spirit of WP:PSTS. Gabbe (talk) 07:43, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Nah, if you want to cultivate to raise a seed which one do you choose? a fertil soil or an asphalt road? this verses order you to cultivate.Asianhuman (talk) 03:35, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

Semi-protected for a week[edit]

I've semi-protected this for a week. If anyone disagrees, if they are an Admin go ahead and unprotect (so long as you put it on your watchlist of course), if you're not, let me know on my talk page. Dougweller (talk) 17:48, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks Doug, maybe this'll make the vandal find something better to occupy his time.--SKATER Speak. 17:51, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Need sources for heterosexual anal sex in modern Islamic society[edit]

I know from my time spent living in the ME (Iraq) that men there practice anal intercourse with women quite frequently, as part of pre-marital (or extra-marital) sex (it avoid pregnancies). Even in brothels, it seems, anal sex is more common than vaginal - the reason in that case seems to be that the experience itself is preferred to vaginal intercourse, although again there may be a desire to preserve vaginal virginity. But no books! Does anyone know of any sources? (By the way, the experience I'm referring to here was entirely what I was told by various Iraqi and non-Iraqi Arab friends - I never did this myself!) PiCo (talk) 03:47, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

And: Found this in a reputable publication, "The Journal of Arabic and Islamic Studies" vol 4 (2001-2002). This is the abstract of a learned paper in German by a certain Arno Schmitt:

Despite widespread acceptance by (male) society, Islamic jurisprudence condemns anal intercourse—and this is the meaning of liw¢açt, not “homosexuality,” or “(male) homosexual behaviour.” The Arab conquest had changed neither the modes of production nor the patriarchal order or sexual mores of Egypt, Syria, Iraq and Iran. In Hellenistic societies the main gender division runs not between male and female, and hetero- and homosexual, but rather between penetrator and penetratable (women, boys, slaves, Jews, eunuchs and dancers alike). To penetrate was normal male desire, but to suffer or to allow penetration was shameful, and to enjoy it worse. Islamic law, on the other hand, prescribes the death penalty for extramarital intercourse— with male or female and whether as penetrator or penetrated. Considering the sources of Islamic law, this paper reasons that neither the Holy Book nor the most authentic and earliest apostolic sayings impose a death sentence for sodomy in this life. But Ism¢aô³l³s, Zaid³s, most …Gaôfar³s and …S¢afiô³s and many ®Hanbalites punish liw¢açt with the penalty for zin¢a; the M¢alik³s and some ®Hanbal³s and …S¢afiô³s decree the death penalty even for the ¯gair mu−hâan. Leaving the ¯gul¢at aside, who, if one is to believe Im¢am³ heresiographies, did allow liw¢açt, some viewing it as a way to transmit holiness, only the rather marginal ®Z¢ahir³ya and most ®Hanafites argue that there is no −hadd—they impose only taôz³r. Although in the classical period some ®Hanaf³s believed it to be allowed in paradise, later the ®Hanaf³ya narrowed the gap with the other maOEd¢ahib, either by imposing −hadd az-zin¢a, or by removing all constraints from taôz³r. As to sodomizing one’s slaves, only the ®Hanbal³s were unambiguous in their condemnation. The solution to the tension between societal attitude and the „sar³ôa is found in strict requirements of evidence: together with general rules of moral conduct, the procedural law makes the execution of the death penalty almost impossible—as long as the sinful and shameful acts take place in private and are denied by the perpetrators.

Deleted section "References for and against"[edit]

I've removed this long section. It's normally a no-no to delete large amounts of text, but in this section I think it would be difficult to make a case for keeping it - it's just about unreadable. It looks as if it was written by someone who's doubtless a good Muslim and even well-read in the hadiths, but there's no attempt to condense the material into a normal narrative - it's just a jumble of A said this and B said that. As things stand the lead has the best treatment available right now.PiCo (talk) 02:46, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

This article[edit]

Is it about Islamic views on anal sex, or is it about Western views on anal sex in Muslim countries ?! Because I feel the recent edit by IP to remove the second paragraph is rather justified. Unflavoured (talk) 09:45, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

We don't define Islam as meaning shariah law - Islam is a culture, not a law-code. PiCo (talk) 04:32, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
Actually, Islam is a religion, not a culture. Unflavoured (talk) 06:55, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
Islam is both. The separation between religion and culture is very much a post-Enlightenment, European, one. In India, Israel, Thailand, and practically everywhere outside Europe and America, there's no distinction between the two. Even in still-traditional parts of Europe, such as rural Greece or the Italian south, this is true. PiCo (talk) 07:32, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
So a Muslim from Brazil, a Muslim from Morocco, a Muslim from Turkey, a Muslim from Sudan, a Muslim from Indonesia and a Muslim from Afghanistan all have the same culture ?! Heh. No. Islam is a religion, not a culture. Unflavoured (talk) 08:30, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
Your concepts need refining - what do you mean by "religion", by "culture"?PiCo (talk) 09:26, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
Not really interested in becoming your dictionary. Feel free to discuss something else that is more likely to help improve the article at hand. For example: Is this article about Islamic views on anal sex ?! Or is it about Western views on anal sex in Muslim counties !? Unflavoured (talk) 10:32, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
That's the point you made at the top, and it's an important one. I wouldn't frame it in those words, though - more like: is this article about attitudes on anal sex as reflected in Islamic jurisprudence (Quran, hadiths, and later fatwas and opinions), or is it about how Muslims themselves practice (or do not practice) anal sex? Is Islam more than a law-code? I think it is. PiCo (talk) 10:51, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

Merge this article with LGBT topics and Islam?[edit]

I only just became aware that [14] exists. Given that it does, I can't see any reason for this article - so I suggest it be merged (anything worth keeping cut/pasted into the other article, and this one made a redirect). Views? PiCo (talk) 08:08, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

But this article is regarding anal sex, which can be considered different from LGBT issues. Unflavoured (talk) 10:03, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
Because anal sex can be heterosexual - and apparently often is. Yes, that's true. PiCo (talk) 10:16, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
Yes, that is what I was saying. The third paragraph in the article, for example, illustrates this. Unflavoured (talk) 10:58, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
How about changing the title to Anal Sex and Islamic Culture? I'm trying to get away fro the very narrow focus on Islamic law - talking about Islamic culture might cover that. (What got me started on this was the article Anal sex, which has a set of subsections on various cultures - I think it goes wrong in treating religions as if they were somehow separate from cultures - they are in the modern West, which is secular and multicultural, but not elsewhere). PiCo (talk) 11:21, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
The thing is, there is no such thing as Islamic culture. Allow me to explain: There are various Islamic traditions that are common to most Muslim countries, that is a fact. However, as far as culture goes, most countries have their own distinct culture, sometimes even coming to conflict with Islamic laws. Thus you can have two Muslims from two different countries with completely different cultural backgrounds, traditions, etc etc. To get a rough understanding of this, take a look at the hijab article. Some countries prefer wearing dark plain hijab, some countries have a hijab that cover part of the chin, some countries have hijab that covers the face, and some countries have hijab which shows half your hair, etc etc. I would suggest a compromise solution: Several sections in the article. A main section describing the status of anal sex in Islam, of course taking into account Sunni/Shiite differences, etc. Then add several other sections for each country, or maybe for each region. The cultural views regarding anal sex are quite different from country to country, and as such you could elaborate. Currently the article's main source of information are sources that specifically study Morocco, yet the implication is that these cultural norms are applicable in all Muslim countries, when the truth is that they are much more likely to be exclusive to Morocco. I hope you get what I am trying to say. Thank you. Unflavoured (talk) 12:14, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Revising article[edit]

Ok, let's agree to leave the title. Let's look at how to improve the article. Let's leave the very first sentence (it's just a single para at the top of the article) and come back to it later. Looking at the first sentence of the second para, I think it's begging a question. It talks about shariah, but what happened to the Quran and the hadiths? Those need to be set first. Do you agree? PiCo (talk) 12:26, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

There is a specific verse in the Qur'an regarding this, but of course, there are multiple POVs regarding the verse. The verse is [15]. There is no place in the Qur'an that explicitly states: Anal sex is forbidden. That is one POV. The majority POV, however, is that the verse clearly says no sex during menstruation, and menstruation does not affect anal sex, and thus anal sex is forbidden. As for hadith, you can see the most mentioned hadiths regarding anal sex here: [16], but please note that Shiites generally do not follow Sunni hadith unless it is endorsed by a Shiite marja'. By the way, shariah IS Qur'an and Hadith, (as well as ijma' and qiyas, of course), so by explaining shariah, you are explaining the Qu'ran and Hadith regarding the issue, and vice versa. If you have no objections, I believe one way that may help to improve readability and open the way for improving the article would be to add a couple of sections. The first sentence can be the lede. Then you can add a new section: "Anal sex in Islamic law", and a third section: "Anal sex in practice." That way, in the Islamic law section, you can fully explain the shariah POV. In the "practice" section, you can explain how many modern Muslims simply do not follow the law, and proceed with the Morocco example, and so on. Unflavoured (talk) 13:20, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
I made a small sandbox on my user page to illustrate what I mean: [17]. I just copy/pasted and put the relevant paragraphs in relevant sections, so this is not a comment on the content, just a suggestion for the re-structuring of the article. Unflavoured (talk) 13:24, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
Your proposed restructure looks fine to me. I still think there's a need for a new paragraph specifically on Quran/hadiths - maybe you don't disagree with that. But the surah you direct me to is problematic - it doesn't mention anal sex, and seems to be entirely about menstruation. Of course, it would be fine to say that some scholars interpret it as being about anal sex. But surely we need to cover the Lut story and it's interpretations. That would seem to cover the Quranic side. Then there's the hadiths. Anyway, I'll have a look later and see if I can make a proposal. PiCo (talk) 23:38, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
Agreed with the new paragraph on Qur'an an hadith. As for the verse regarding menstruation, I linked since it used in Shariah as an argument against anal sex. The argument goes something like so: If anal sex is allowed, then why must a couple refrain from sex during menstruation ?! But that is what I recall reading here and there, so if you do not want to add it until I find a source that specifically explains this, that is fine by me. Unflavoured (talk) 04:32, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
I've made a revision based on your sandbox. Only two sections, one on law, the other on society. The one on law is divided into 3 subsections, on Quran, hadith and shariah. Society is only a single paragraph. PiCo (talk) 07:53, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
That is good. I would like to request that this sentence: "Thus one says that "inverts" were common in the Prophet's own tribe and that he was much amused by their wit; others, however, recommend the death penalty" be taken out, unless strong evidence is presented for its authenticity. I believe that there was an incident in Medina when two men were caught practicing sodomy, and the Prophet had them stoned. I will look for it and add it if I can find a source. Unflavoured (talk) 07:56, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
Feel free to edit. Surely the incident where the Prophet ordered stoning is itself a hadith? PiCo (talk) 08:55, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
A Hadith is something said by the Prophet. In Arabic, the word "hadith" literally means: "Talk." So if it is an action, it may not be in the Hadith. Unflavoured (talk) 09:08, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

What does Islam say about pegging?[edit]

This article should also include information about Islamic views on pegging (a woman anally penetrating a man using a strap-on dildo). Does anyone know how Islamic jurisprudence views such an act? Ganiasam (talk) 10:42, 31 August 2011 (UTC) It should also include Islamic views on rusty trombones, dirty sanchezs, and the shocker. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.33.208.179 (talk) 11:16, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

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How many Muslims actually take this seriously? The article ignores this.[edit]

This whole article is just about what the rules of Islam say -- the sacred texts and the scholars. But in practice, many Muslims ignore this. The article ought to address this issue. 2.223.184.219 (talk) 19:51, 9 September 2019 (UTC)