Did the ancient Pagan Religions get picked up as 'tradition'? | Baptist Christian Forums
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Featured Did the ancient Pagan Religions get picked up as 'tradition'?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Hobie, Feb 29, 2020.

  1. Hobie

    Hobie Active Member

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    Looking into the history of the rites of the ancient pagan religion in Rome, the rites were performed and controlled by a number of different priestly collegia and other special priests and magistrates. The priestly organizations that ranked below the collegia were known as sodalicia, and there were many "independent" priests of various cults who bore the title sacerdos. There were pagan beliefs that came in and were picked up and developed a priesthood and became strong in Rome such as the such as the Mysteries of Mithras or worship originating from ancient Babylon.

    If you look into church history you will find what is called the Disciplina Arcani or Discipline of the Secret or Discipline of the Arcane, which was a restriction imposing silence upon Christians with respect to their rites and doctrines. It was a theological term used to describe the 'tradition' or custom which came in and prevailed in the church, whereby knowledge of the more 'intimate mysteries' of the Christian religion was carefully kept from non-Christians and even from those who were undergoing instruction in the faith. Lets look see what this "Discipline" actually is from:

    This term signifies in general that which is unknowable, or valuable knowledge that is kept secret. In pagan antiquity the word mystery was used to designate certain esoteric doctrines, such as Pythagoreanism, or certain ceremonies that were performed in private or whose meaning was known only to the initiated, e.g., the Eleusinian rites, Phallic worship. In the language of the early Christians the mysteries were those religious teachings that were carefully guarded from the knowledge of the profane (see DISCIPLINE OF THE SECRET).

    ..theological term used to express the custom which prevailed in the earliest ages of the Church, by which the knowledge of the more intimate mysteries of the Christian religion was carefully kept from the heathen and even from those who were undergoing instruction in the Faith. The custom itself is beyond dispute.

    CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Discipline of the Secret (Catholic Encyclopedia), Discipline of the Secret (Latin Disciplina Arcani ):

    There are many other "unwritten mysteries of the Church," says St. Basilc. 66 and 67). They are not mentioned in the Scripture. But they are of great authority and significance. They are indispensable for the preservation of right faith. They are effective means of witness and communication. According to St. Basil, they come from a "silent" and "private" tradition: [From the silent and mystical tradition, from the unpublic and ineffable teaching]. This "silent" and "mystical" tradition, "which has not been made public," is not an esoteric doctrine, reserved for some particular elite. The "elite" was the Church. In fact, "tradition" to which St. Basil appeals, is the liturgical practice of the Church. St. Basil is referring here to what is now denoted as disciplina arcani [The discipline of secrecy].

    These 'traditions' of the church of Rome can easily be traced to the source. The Collegium Pontificum in Rome came from ancient pagan religion in Babylon and was the priests who served the public rites of the State religion and contoled both the public rites and the priesthoods themselves. Its leader was the Pontifex Maximus (Greatest Pontiff) who acted as the speaker for the Collegium Pontificum, and oversaw the various priesthoods and the Comitia Curiata and the Vestals. The Flamines were the priest orders that served specific deities such as the Flamen Dialis (priests of Jupiter), the Flamen Martialis (priests of Mars) among the many orders.Catholic Encyclopedia (1913)/Mystery - Wikisource, the free online library
     
    #1 Hobie, Feb 29, 2020
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 4, 2020
  2. Hobie

    Hobie Active Member

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    Now as the Bishop of Rome gained more converts his area and influence grew, and people natuarally looked to Rome as they had during the Empire as the center of authority. It used Easter as a tool to bring more pagans into the church, but instead of having them shed their pagan ways and ceremonies, it allow them into the church. Lets take a look at Easter which was an ancient pagan festival and the pagan solstice celebrations were brought in and given a Christian veneer so pagans could join and continue as they had during the Empire. The pagan festival or Spring Equinox festival was characterized by the rejoining of the Mother Goddess and her lover-consort-son, who spent the winter months in death.

    The origin of the Easter egg, was from ancient times were they were used in religious rituals throughout Egypt and Greece. Eggs were hung for mystic purposes in temples. These sacred eggs can be traced to the banks of the Euphrates and Babylon paganism. Pagan priests were celibate, tonsured, and received the power of sacrificing for the living and the dead. The goddess in ancient religions was worshipped as the life giver and nurturer and as such, this religion was imbued with sexual undertones. Easter is nothing else but Ashtarte, one of the titles of Beltis, the Queen of Heaven. The Easter “buns” were used in the worship of the queen of heaven, the goddess of Easter. As early as the days of Cecrops, the founder of Athens, fifteen hundred years before the Christian era. The prophet Jeremiah takes notice of this offering when he says,

    “The children gather wood, the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough to make cakes to the Queen of heaven.” ( Jer. 7:18 )
     
  3. Hobie

    Hobie Active Member

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    The Greeks picked up the Babylonian worship and carried to completion Alexander the Greats project of restoring Bel’s temple at Babylon and re-founded Nebo’s temple at Borsippa, and many pagan temples where restored as the Babylonian religion became dominant among the Greeks. The Babylonian gods took Greek names, as we see the Greek name of their idol was Zeus Olympus, but it was clearly the old Mesopotamian sun-god.

    By the second century the Roman Empire annexed Mesopotamia to its rule, and the Babylonian system moved westward. Under the Empire many of the conquered people were transported to Rome as slaves and took their religions directly with them.
    The Chaldean astrology, of which the Syrian priests were enthusiastic disciples, had furnished them (the Romans) with the elements of a scientific theology (Cumont, Oriental Religions, p. 199). And the "Babylonian sun-worship and the mystery religions became the official religions of Rome. The Emperor Aurelian in the third century, proclaimed the sun-god as the official god of the Romans. This Sun-worship was the final form which Roman paganism assumed. In 274 A.D. the emperor Aurelian conferred on it official recognition, inspired by what he had seen at Palmyra, he founded a gorgeous temple in honour of Sol Invictus — the invincible Sun — served by priests who had precedence even over the members of the ancient Collegium pontificum; and in the following century, the Claudian emperors worshipped the almighty star (the sun) ... The invincible Sun raised to the supreme position in the divine hierarchy, peculiar protector of sovereigns and of the Empire, tends to absorb or subordinate to himself all other divinities (Cumont, Astrology and Religion, p. 133).

    So we see the connection to the ancient Babylonian system of worship, and the church at Rome was at the center and the change from Sabbath to Sunday was slowly introduced at Rome about the middle of the second century, and it was not from the Apostles or scripture, but for another reason of pagan origin. It put on a Christian garb the beliefs that had dominated during the Roman Empire. For example, it reinstated the ceremonies and obligations of the Collegium Pontificum and the position of Pontifex Maximus of the ancient Roman polytheistic religion and created Christian orders to replace the ancient Roman ones such as the Vestal Virgins and the flamines.
     
  4. Hobie

    Hobie Active Member

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    Now the tradition the church at Rome was following did exist, but it wasnt the tradition of the Apostles as we can see from the changes. But there was a tradition, the corruption from the Gnostic sect had brought about what is called the Disciplina Arcani or Discipline of the Secret or Discipline of the Arcane, which was a restriction imposing silence upon Christians with respect to their rites and doctrines. It was a theological term used to describe the custom which came in and prevailed in the church, whereby knowledge of the more 'intimate mysteries' of the Christian religion was carefully kept from non-Christians and even from those who were undergoing instruction in the faith. The church in the early stages picked up pagan oral teachings from Greek and Hellenistic sources which formed the basis of this secret oral tradition, which in the 4th century came to be called the disciplina arcani. It is believe that it contained liturgical details and certain other pagan traditions which remain a part of Christianity, for example, the doctrine of Transubstantiation is thought to have been a part of this.

    Now lets take a look at the College of Pontiffs or Collegium Pontificum which was a body of the ancient Roman state whose members were the highest-ranking priests of the pagan religion. It consisted of the Pontifex Maximus, the Vestal Virgins, the Rex Sacrorum, and the flamines.

    The Pontifex Maximus was the head and most important member of the college and held the sole power in appointing members to the other priesthoods. There were four chief colleges of priests in ancient Rome, the most illustrious of which was that of the pontifices. The others were those of the augures, the quindecimviri sacris faciundis, and the epulones. The same person could be a member of more than one of these groups, including the Pontifex Maximus, who was president of the college. By the third century B.C., the pontiffs had assumed control of the state religious system. So we see where the title "pontiff" and its position was in the pagan priesthood.

    The Rex Sacrorum, during the Roman Republic, was chosen by the pontifex maximus from a list of patricians submitted by the College of Pontiffs. The rex sacrorum wore a toga, the undecorated soft "shoeboot" (calceus), and carried a ceremonial ax; as a priest of archaic Roman religion, he sacrificed capite velato, with head covered. At Rome, the Rex Sacrorum priesthood was deliberately depoliticized; the rex sacrorum was not elected, and the comitia or the legislative assemblies of the Roman Republic merely witnessed his inauguration. Like the flamen Dialis but in contrast to the pontiffs and augurs, the rex was barred from a political and military career. It is not clear if the position carried over into the church as the Cardinals from what I can see, but the early on, Cardinals wore a violet or blue cape unless granted the privilege of wearing red, scarlet garments — the blood-like red was said to symbolize a Cardinal's willingness to die for his faith. But the Rex Sacrorum priesthood were appointed to counsel the Pontiff much as Cardinals which also were appointed to counsel the Pontiff in Rome. Historically, Cardinals were the clergy of the city of Rome, serving the Bishop of Rome as the Pope, but in the twelfth century the practice of appointing ecclesiastics from outside Rome as cardinals began, with each of them being assigned a church in Rome as his titular church, or being linked with one of the suburbicarian dioceses, while still being incardinated in a diocese other than that of Rome. There was created the College of Cardinals which is a body of all cardinals of the Catholic Church and a function of the college is to advise the pope about church matters when he summons them to an ordinary consistory.
     
  5. Hobie

    Hobie Active Member

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    Now lets take a look at the Vestal Virgins who were priestesses of Vesta, goddess of the hearth. The College of the Vestals and its well-being was regarded as fundamental to the continuance and security of Rome, as embodied by their cultivation of the sacred fire that could not be allowed to go out. Around age 6 to 10, girls were chosen for this position and were obligated to perform the rites and obligations, including remaining chaste, for 30 years. The chief Vestal (Virgo Vestalis Maxima or Vestalium Maxima, "greatest of the Vestals") oversaw the efforts of the Vestals, and was present in the College of Pontiffs. The Vestals were freed of the usual social obligations to marry and bear children, and took a vow of chastity. Now we see where the nuns and there position and duties came from.

    Then there were the flamens who were priests in charge of fifteen official cults of Roman religion, each assigned to a particular god. The three major flamens (flamines maiores) were the Flamen Dialis, the high priest of Jupiter; the Flamen Martialis, who cultivated Mars; and the Flamen Quirinalis, devoted to Quirinus. When a vacancy occurred, the persons were nominated to it and consecrated (inaugurabatur) by the Pontifex Maximus. So we see where the position and duties of the priests come from, and you can see why they were divided into orders, each devoted for a particular god.

    So the bishop of Rome basically took the Collegium Pontificum and imposed it at will and the original teachings and practices of the original Christian church as depicted in the Acts of the Apostles was set aside or subtly shifted to allow the changes to take place. The bishop of Rome soon had no other bishop held at the same level, from the patriarch of Alexandria to the one in Jerusalem and he was pushing for more converts so allowing the pagan beliefs and ceremonies to come into the church.
     
  6. Adonia

    Adonia Well-Known Member
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    All that you posted can be summed up in the following way. Yes, the Christian religion supplanted the pagan religion by taking over their holidays etc. - and it worked. See how simple this was? That long copy and paste dissertation was completely unnecessary.
     
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  7. Hobie

    Hobie Active Member

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    Well its not just what they did to bring in apostasy into the church but the many sources that point out the origins of the corruption....

    ...the "temples, incense, oil lamps, votive offerings, holy water, Holidays, and seasons of devotion, processions, blessings of the fields, sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure (of priests, munks and nuns), images, and statues... are all of PAGAN ORIGIN." -The Development of the Christian Religion Cardinal Newman p.359

    The penetration of the religion of Babylon became so general and well known that Rome was called the "New Babylon." -Faith of our fathers 1917 ed. Cardinal Gibbons, p. 106

    "Confiding then in the power of Christianity to resist the infection of evil, and to transmute the instruments and appendages of demon worship to an evangelical use... the rulers of the church from early times were prepared should occasion arise, to adopt, or imitate, or sanction the existing rites and customs of the populace." -Development of Christian Doctrine, Cardinal Newman. p. 372

    Cardinal Newman lists many examples of things of "pagan origin" which the papacy brought into the church "in order to recommend the new religion to the heathen: "in order to recommend the new religion to the heathen:" "The use of temples, and these dedicated to particular saints, and ornamented on occasions with branches of trees; incense, lamps, and candles; holy water; asylums [hermitages, monasteries and convents]; [pagan] holy-days, processions, sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure, the ring in marriage, turning to the East, images, . . . and the Kyrie Eleison."--Cardinal J. H. Newman, An Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine, 1920 edition, p.373 [Roman Catholic].

    "The [Catholic] Church took the pagan philosophy and made it the buckler of faith against the heathen. She took the pagan Roman Pantheon, temple of all the gods, and made it sacred to all the martyrs; so it stands to this day. She took the pagan Sunday and made it the Christian Sunday. She took the pagan Easter and made it the feast we celebrate during this season . . . The Sun was a foremost god with heathendom . . . The sun has worshipers at this hour in Persia and other lands . . . Hence the Church would seem to say, 'Keep that old pagan name [Sunday]. It shall remain consecrated, sanctified.' And thus the pagan Sunday, dedicated to Balder, became the Christian Sunday, sacred to Jesus"--William L. Gildea, "Paschale Gaudium," in The Catholic World, 58, March, 1894, p. 809 [A Roman Catholic weekly].
    "in order to recommend the new religion to the heathen:" "The use of temples, and these dedicated to particular saints, and ornamented on occasions with branches of trees; incense, lamps, and candles; holy water; asylums [hermitages, monasteries and convents]; [pagan] holy-days, processions, sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure, the ring in marriage, turning to the East, images, . . . and the Kyrie Eleison."--J. H. Newman, An Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine, 1920 edition, p.373 [Roman Catholic].

    "The mighty Catholic Church was little more then the Roman Empire baptized."-- A. C, Flick, The Rise of the Mediaeval Church, 1909 edition, p. 148. From ancient Babylon came the cult of the virgin mother-goddess, who was worshiped as the highest of gods--see S. H. Langdon, Semitic Mythology, 1931 edition. This worship was taken over as Mary-worship by Rome. Heathen sun-worship on Sunday was likewise adopted by the Roman apostasy.

    "In order to attach to Christianity great attraction in the eyes of the nobility, the priests adopted the outer garments and adornments which were used in pagan cults." -Life of Constantine, Eusabius, cited in Altai-Nimalaya, p. 94

    "The Church did everything it couldto stamp out such 'pagan' rites, but had to capitualet and allow the rites to continue with only the name of the local diety changed to some Christian saint's name." -Religious Tradition and Myth. Dr. Edwin Goodenough, Professor of Religion, Harvard University. p. 56, 57

    "From the foregoing, which treats merely of the more important solar festivals, it is clear that these products of paganism are as much in force at present ... as they ever were, and that Christianity countenances, and in many cases has actually adopted and practiced, pagan rites whose heathen significance is merely lost sight of because attention is not called tot the source whence these rites have sprung. So heavy was this infiltration that Sir Samuel Dill exclaims: "Christianity is only a sect of the Mithraists." -Roman Society from Nero to Marcus Aurelius, p. VII

    "We know that Mithraism was a state religion of Rome at the time that the Christian church was established there. Evidently tenants of Mithraism such as Sunday worship and eating the wafer in the mass were adopted into Christianity at that time" -Jim Arrabito "666 & the Mark"

    In Stanley's History, page 40: "The popes filled the place of the vacant emperors at Rome, inheriting
    their power, their prestige, and their titles from PAGANISM."

    "In short, sun worship, symbolically speaking, lies at the very heart of the great festivals which the Christian Church celebrates today, and these relics of heathen religion have, through the medium of their sacred rites, curiously enough blended with practices and beliefs utterly antagonistic to the spirit which prompted them." -Sun Lore of All Ages, Olcott, p. 248

    "Yet the cross itself is the oldest of phallic emblems, and the lozenge-shaped windows of cathedrals are proof that the yonic symbols have survived the destructions of the pagan Mysteries. The very structure of the church itself is permeated with (sexual symbolism) phallicism. Remove from the Christian Church all emblems of Priapic origin and nothing is left..." -The secret teaching of all ages by Manley P. Hall

    "When the zealots of the primitave Christian Church sought to Christianize paganism, the pagan initiates retorted with a powerful effort to paganize Christianity. The Christians failed but the pagans succeeded. With the decline of paganism the initiated pagan hierophants transferred their base of operations to the new vehicle of primitive Christianity, adopting the symbols of the new cult to conceal those eternal verities which are ever the priceless possession of the wise." -The secret teachings of all ages, Manley P. Hall p. CLXXXV

    "The belief in miracle-working objects, talismans, amulets, and formulas was dear to Christianity, and they were received from pagan antiquity . . . The vestments of the clergy and the papal title of 'pontifex maximus' were legacies from pagan Rome. The [Catholic] Church found that rural converts still revered certain springs, wells, trees, and stones; she thought it wiser to bless these to Christian use then to break too sharply the customs of sentiment . . . Pagan festivals dear to the people, reappeared as Christian feasts, and pagan rites were transformed into Christian liturgy . . . The Christian calendar of saints replaced the Roman 'fasti' [gods]; ancient divinities dear to the people were allowed to revive under the names of 'Christian saints' . . . Gradually the tenderest features of Astarte, Cybele, Artemis, Diana, and Isis were gathered together in the worship of Mary"--Wil Durant, The Age of Faith, 1950, pp. 745-746.
     
  8. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
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    You seem to be using 2 different screen names?
     
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  9. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The religion that really has that secret knowledge would be Free masonry though!
    Are you Sda? if yes, supreme irony that one Cultist would be lecturing RCC cultists on theology!
     
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  10. Hobie

    Hobie Active Member

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    I use to use reddogs till my chow chows died, so changed it to hobie as I love to sail.
     
  11. Hobie

    Hobie Active Member

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    Now this is interesting...
    "Here is how Pagan Rome was converted to Papal Rome:

    Roman Empire (Imperium Romanum) renamed: Roman Catholic Church

    Curia (legal body of Senators) slight name change: Curia (legal body of Cardinals)

    Roman Emperor renamed: Roman Pope (head of all church and state affairs)

    Civil government matters of state: Extra-Ordinary affairs (matters of civil-state governments)

    Religious orders matters: Church “ecclesiastical” matters

    Roman College of Senators renamed: College of Cardinals

    Magistrate of College of Senators renamed: Dean of College of Cardinals

    Departments of the Roman Senatorial Curia renamed: Congregations

    Political Ambassador renamed: Pro-Nuncio (highest civil ambassador sent to other governments, ie Washington DC, London etc)

    ......Roman Senators renamed: Cardinals

    Roman Governors renamed: Archbishops

    Roman Senator with no territory: Bishop (Code of Canon Law 376)

    (Large) Roman Province renamed: Archdiocese

    (Small) Roman Territory renamed: Diocese

    Imperial Chair of Jupiter where Caesar sat renamed: Throne of St. Peter

    Vestal Virgins renamed: Nuns

    Pontifex Maximus (high priest of College of Senators) renamed: Supreme Pontiff of College of Cardinals

    Pontiff or “high priest ” of a pagan religious order (Zues, Apollo, Diana, Mars, Jupiter, Baal, Dionysys, Pythia etc) same name: Pontiff

    A Pontiff (Latin: “pontifex”) means bridge-builder or priest between man and the gods of the underworld.

    The Roman Calendar and Holy Days of the gods renamed: Calendar Holidays of the Saints

    Voice of the gods speaking through Caesar: Ex-Cathedra: Voice of God speaking through Pope

    Meeting of the Pontiffs (high priests) of the pagan religious orders renamed: Ecumenical Council of the Bishops

    Legal act of creating a god (of a living or dead human, as was done to most of the Caesars) “Apotheosis of the Gods” renamed: Canonization of the Saints

    A decree of Caesar (dictator for life): Pope’s infallible Dogma

    Praying to a dead human god renamed: Praying to a saint"
    ....Papal Rome as a Continuation of Pagan Rome
     
  12. Hobie

    Hobie Active Member

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    Here is a good explanation...

    "When Constantine moved his capital to Constantinople (330 AD), the Pope inherited the power, prestige, and even titles of the Roman emperors. The most significant of such titles is Pontifex Maximus, a pagan title that means “Bridge builder between heaven and Earth.”

    After Constantine, his son Constantius came into power. In an effort to unite the various factions of the Church, he forced anti-Nicene doctrines on the Church, saying "Whatever I will shall be regarded as canon."iiConstantius also tried to eliminate some pagan practices from his empire. In 356 AD, he decreed the closure of all pagan temples; however, the decree did not stop the rituals from continuing in Rome.

    Constantius' cousin Julian became the next emperor. A pagan, he tried to revert the empire to its pre-Christian pagan practices and the worship of Helios and Mithra. Following the reign of Julian was an era of emperors who practiced some form of Christianity—but remained mostly tolerant to the heresies and twisted doctrine that prevailed in their empire.

    In 538 AD, the emperor Justinian issued a decree, proclaiming the Pope to be supreme in religious matters. Since then, the Pope has assumed the garb of representative of Jesus Christ on Earth.

    Throughout the mid-first millennium, elements of Pagan Rome were further incorporated into Papal Rome through symbols, rituals, and ceremonies. For example, the Roman clergy wear the same vestments of the priests of Dagon, the fish-god. The fish-head mitre, worn by bishops and popes is also the same as the ancient mitre used by the priesthood of Babylon.

    The keys of the pagan god figures have also become a symbol of the Papacy, Christianized into “the keys of Peter.”....Papal Rome takes Pagan Rome's Power | The Papacy and the Roman Empire
     
  13. Adonia

    Adonia Well-Known Member
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    So? In case you didn't know, incense is used in heaven. (See Revelation) If it's use is okay there, why not here?

    You yourself follow certain pagan ideas. Like the rest of us, you acknowledge and use the names we have for the days of the week. Where did they come from you ask?

    (See the following)

    The Greeks named the days week after the sun, the moon and the five known planets, which were in turn named after the gods Ares, Hermes, Zeus, Aphrodite, and Cronus.

    The Greeks called the days of the week the Theon hemerai "days of the Gods". The Romans substituted their equivalent gods for the Greek gods, Mars, Mercury, Jove (Jupiter), Venus, and Saturn. (The two pantheons are very similar.) T

    The Germanic peoples generally substituted roughly similar gods for the Roman gods, Tiu (Twia), Woden, Thor, Freya (Fria), but did not substitute Saturn.

    So we have:

    Sunday - the Sun's day. (dies solis (Latin) - Day of the Sun)
    Monday - Moon's Day. (dies lunae (Latin) - Day of the Moon)
    Tuesday - Tieu's Day. ( dies martis (Latin) - Day of Mars)
    Wednesday - Woden's Day. ( dies Mercurii (L.atin) - Day of Mercury)
    Thursday - Thor's Day. ( dies Jovis (Latin) - Day of Jupiter)
    Friday - Freya's Day. (dies Vereris (Latin) - Venus's Day )
    Saturday - Saturn's Day. (dies Saturni (Latin) - Day of Saturn )

    Do you really have a problem with any of that?
     
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  14. Adonia

    Adonia Well-Known Member
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    Makes sense to me.

    Cardinal Newman was one of the greatest Christian theologians ever - and don't you forget it!
     
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  15. Walpole

    Walpole Well-Known Member

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    ...And the work of Newman's the poster quoted (An Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine) was written while Newman was still a Protestant.
     
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  16. Hobie

    Hobie Active Member

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    When a man takes on what belongs to God, calls himself 'infallible' and substitutes that which Christ taught with its 'traditions' of evil, then their is a problem. Martin Luther, and the other great Protestant reformers, identifies the beast power of Daniel and Revelation, and the antichrist power as the Roman papacy. Nothing has change, it still fights against God, and will to the end as scripture shows.
     
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  17. Walter

    Walter Well-Known Member
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    So much hooey! You know that athiests and agnostics try the same kind of nonsense on christianity in general, don'tcha?

     
    #17 Walter, Mar 1, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2020
  18. Hobie

    Hobie Active Member

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    I think Martin Luther got it right...

    "Martin Luther's criticism of the Church initially was that the Church was sending the wrong message, that the Church was ... giving to people the sense that they could save themselves by using the various things the Church offered, including indulgences. And the proper message was: No, you couldn't do that. In order to be saved, you had to leave it to Christ, and you had to simply cling to what Christ had done for you. That was his original complaint with the Church. But when the Church did not listen, he came reluctantly to the conclusion that the Church, especially the office of the papacy, was the Antichrist, and that what it was doing was deliberate. It was the devil's attempt to subvert, to submerge the good news, the gospel. The devil was working within the Church. And once he was convinced that that was happening, the papal office was the office of the Antichrist, and he saw the end time near. ..."
    Apocalypticism Explained | Apocalypse! FRONTLINE | PBS
     
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  19. Walpole

    Walpole Well-Known Member

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    Spoiler alert: Luther was not interested in reforming the church, but rather forming his own religion. He would later admit at the end of his life he did not even really know what an indulgence was. (cf. Hans Worsts, 1541). They were but a convenient catalyst to begin his revolt.
     
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  20. Hobie

    Hobie Active Member

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    Well lets get a more balanced source....
    "Martin Luther Questions the Catholic Church
    In early 16th-century Europe, some theologians and scholars were beginning to question the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. It was also around this time that translations of original texts—namely, the Bible and the writings of the early church philosopher Augustine—became more widely available.

    Augustine (340–430) had emphasized the primacy of the Bible rather than Church officials as the ultimate religious authority. He also believed that humans could not reach salvation by their own acts, but that only God could bestow salvation by his divine grace. In the Middle Ages the Catholic Church taught that salvation was possible through “good works,” or works of righteousness, that pleased God. Luther came to share Augustine’s two central beliefs, which would later form the basis of Protestantism.

    Meanwhile, the Catholic Church’s practice of granting “indulgences” to provide absolution to sinners became increasingly corrupt. Indulgence-selling had been banned in Germany, but the practice continued unabated. In 1517, a friar named Johann Tetzel began to sell indulgences in Germany to raise funds to renovate St. Peter’s Basilica in Rome"....https://www.history.com/topics/reformation/martin-luther-and-the-95-theses
     
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