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Family Trees from My WIs

That is more likely and I have no idea
Maybe a war where Aragon/England threatens to annex parts of Navarre (after all, the kingdom Carlos el Noble left was sizeably different from the kingdom the future Henri IV of France inherited). Charles VII's son says "sign it or the French don't get involved" (maybe he's inherited one throne - France/Navarre - but not the other - Navarre/France - yet). The Navarrese aren't exactly throwing a parade about it, but if France keeps England/Aragon from swallowing half of Navarre, it's a small price (to their mind) to pay.
 
Inspired by this:



Excerpt from Rich Man, Poor Man, Vagabond, Thief: The Life and Times of the First Count of Guise:

When Louis, Count of Guise was born in 1416, after his father's death, it was hailed as a miracle, not only in France. Many had noted his parents' aversions to one another - his father preferring to spend his time in the company of one of the queen's ladies-in-waiting, La Belle Casinelle, and in his books, his mother preferring the company of other men - among whom was the count of Vertus, heir to the duke of Orleans - and if it hadn't been for his stillborn sister, many would've lent their ears to the claims that Louis was actually the son of Vertus. Which gave rise to many a pasquinade on the streets of Paris, given the emnity that the Burgundians and Orléans families had for one another.

Still, as it stood, Guise was born second in line to the French throne - after his cousin, the dauphin - and, since his uncle, John the Fearless had no sons, almost as close to the Burgundian inheritance. And he was duly considered for the hand of his mother's namesake, Marguerite of Burgundy the Younger, the eldest of John's children. And he was raised by his uncle after his mother's death.

By the time he was twenty-years-old, the count of Guise had lost his paramount place in the French succession, to the "three brats", the sons of Charles VII. To make matters worse, not only had John the Fearless' second marriage produced two sons - the comte de Charolais and his far more robust younger brother - but Marguerite of Burgundy had rejected her cousin's proposal of marriage. The rumourmongers - of which every age abounds - said that it had to do with his libertine lifestyle. Those rumourmongers were also quick to comment that Guise recalled - in behaviour, if not appearance - far more, the late duke of Orleans than his more studious father. The truth was that he had paid court to both Marguerite and her sister, Marie of Burgundy simultaneously, in many instances, going from the one to the other and using the same honeyed words just spoken to the sister. Unfortunately for him, the sisters had got wind of it and sent him packing him outright. After which, his hope had been to marry the sister of the queen of Navarre, but, perhaps knowing his cousin's intentions, Charles VII quickly married her off to the king of Naples instead. It was made all the more slighting since the queen's sister had said "she had no wish to marry a bastard".

And so it was that Guise turned to plotting. Dissatisfied with his "miniscule" maternal inheritance of the countship of Guise, he desired more land, more power. In retrospect, this is understandable, since from being the "second man in France" or a potential consort to the heiress of Burgundy, he was left a mere count....
@Brita @RedKing @Carolus @isabella @material_boy @FouDuRoy , do we have any suggestions for a potential wife for Monsieur le Comte de Guise?
 
An idea for Johanna's remarriage:

Based on this:

...when Joan of Brabant's husband died at Staveren in 1345, she was left a childless widow. Their only son had been stillborn or died shortly after birth. Her husband was succeeded by his sister, the wife of Holy Roman Emperor Louis IV. The empress had four sons of her own in 1345 (with another to be born in 1347), the eldest of whom, named Louis after his father, was already married. Whether it was to rid herself of a rival or kindness or political expediency has often been debated, the empress offered the Dowager Countess, still in widow's garb, to the empress' nephew, the prince of Wales [1]. The famous Black Prince of later fame. It is unknown why the negotiations foundered. In the play, Joan of Brabant, the reason is given that the Dowager Countess refused to leave off her widow's weeds when receiving the English envoy, and that she secretly nursed a desire to wish to marry the emperor's oldest son. In reality, this was impossible, since the emperor's oldest son was already married (since 1342 already) and his second son would only be widowed in 1349.

Whatever the reason was for the breaking of the English negotiations, now of no use to the imperial party, the Dowager Countess of Holland was returned to her father, the duke of Brabant. It needs hardly be said that the duke, her august father, had any more use of a childless widow than the emperor. It is possible that the duke of Brabant played a role in the breaking of his daughter's English marriage, since his son and heir, Henry, was betrothed to Edward III's eldest daughter, the spoiled Isabella of Woodstock, since 1344, and the pro-French duke of Brabant felt one English marriage was one marriage too many. It is unknown exactly how Joan spent the next few years at her father's court. What is known is that in 1347, her younger sister, Margaret, married the count of Flanders, and a month later, her youngest sister, Mary, married Edward III's nephew, the duke of Guelders. Her brother's betrothal to Isabella of Woodstock was terminated, to be replaced by an engagement to the then four-year-old Joan of France (daughter of King John II), while her youngest brother, Godfrey, was engaged at, around the same time, to Joan of Bourbon.

The extension of these French connections into Brabant opened the next chapter in Joan's life. Joan of France's mother, Judith of Bohemia, was the sister to new Emperor, Charles IV (elected in 1346 in the twilight of Louis IV's reign, following his deposition by the pope). And when Charles' wife - the beautiful Blanche of France - died in 1348, there were suggestions that Joan marry the pro-French emperor. Unfortunately, these hopes too, were dashed, when Charles married Anne of the Palatinate, in exchange for her father's support. As a way of softening this blow, Charles offered his half-brother, Wenceslas, then engaged to the three-year-old duchess of Lorraine.

It is here that we have record of one of Joan's most famous remarks. When receiving the imperial envoy, Joan heard the man out, then retorted (quoted in its entirety): "he [Wenceslas] has no beard, but the emperor would have me regard him as a man. The emperor has a beard, and is more than a mere boy. He that is more than a man is not for me, he that is less, I am not for him." Nobody was left in any doubt as to what Joan meant by this remark, namely that the emperor's brother, the margrave of Brandenburg, had been despised by his older wife, why would matters be any different here?

In 1348-49, two more candidates made suit for Joan's hand in marriage: John, count of Cleves[2] and Rudolf the Blind, Elector Palatine of the Rhine. John was the last surviving of his brothers and the only hoope that the house of Cleves would endure for another generation. Rudolf (the father of the same Anne who had become empress) had suddenly been catapaulted into the spotlight by the sudden death of his nephew, Rupert II, without male issue [3]. While Joan accepted the latter proposal, events were thrown into turmoil in 1349 by the sudden death of her brother, Henry. There were recriminations of poison (as always when someone of seemingly good health died), and a finger was pointed to the Palatinate. This was, in all likelihood, simply malicious gossip, but it once more dashed the marital prospects of Joan.

It would only be in 1350 that she would marry. And then to a rather...odd candidate. After having nearly been empress, princess of Wales, Electress Palatine, duchess of Luxemburg and countess of Cleves, Joan married Dirk (Diederik) of Heinsberg, Count of Loon and Chiny. It has been speculated by many that this may have been a love match, and that Joan was simply exhausted of the constant making and breaking of engagements. However, this would be to discount the political advantages and connections that Dirk brought to the table. The county of Loon lay alongside the duchy of Brabant, Dirk had fought in the Baltic Crusades - alongside Joan's first husband, and it is speculated that that they may have known one another in Holland - gaining a reputation as a strong fighter (he'd plunged his sword into the chest of a charging horse of a knight who would kill him; and killed another knight by stabbing him through the raised visor of his helmet), and with familial connections to the duchess of Lorraine, the duke of Guelders and the house of Nassau as well as being related to Joan herself (according to the papal dispensation for their marriage[4]), the comment from the play Joan of Brabant "that Dame Joan has married her horsemaster" is certainly unfounded...

- Ernestina Schoeman. Princely Power in the Netherlands: The Life and Times of Joan, Duchess of Brabant. 1972. (translated by Joanna Mance)


[1] OTL, it was her sister (the countess of Flanders) who was offered.
[2] OTL married Mathilde of Guelders
[3] Rupert II is the father of the OTL Rupert III of the Palatinate, King of Germany. He leaves only a daughter, Anna (b.1346)
[4] Dirk and Johanna share a common ancestor in Henri I of Brabant. Not sure if they would need a dispensation (they're something like sixth-cousins), but I figure I might be missing a closer common relation, so it's sort of "just in case".

@Jan Olbracht @Janprimus @VVD0D95 @Awkwardvulture @isabella @pompejus
 
@isabella @Jan Olbracht @Carolus @RedKing @material_boy @Ivan Lupo @CaptainShadow @VVD0D95 @The Professor @Zygmunt Stary @Zulfurium @Brita @FouDuRoy

Looking for matches for the following people:

Catherine and Isabeau de Valois (sisters of TTL Charles VII). One of them is likely to be married in Castile, but that still leaves the other (OTL Catherine de Valois I'm considering as either wife of James I of Scotland or an alt-son of his older brother)
Maria of Navarre (sister to TTL Charles VII's wife)
Marie of Burgundy (sister of Jean sans Peur, OTL countess of Savoy, since her place has been taken by Jeanne de Valois)
Philippe the Good of Burgundy needs a second wife (Jacqueline of Holland is already spoken for, unfortunately), and his daughters need husbands
Showcasing the life and times of Charles VI's youngest daughter, Catherine de Valois:

Isobel Cooper: We're here with actress, Christina Sterling [4], who is playing Katherine of France in the upcoming series: The Lily and the Lion, a story based on the French court at the start of the fifteenth century. Christina, hello and welcome to the show."
Christina: *in French-accented English* bonjour, and I'm very glad to be here.
Isobel: first of all, you're French, despite the very English sounding name, correct?
Christina: oui. I was born in Lyons and then raised in Toulouse since I was five.
Isobel: what drew you to the role of playing Katherine?
Christina: I think that this is such a turbulent period of history. Not only of France, but of England too. In France you have the king - Katherine's father, played by the fantastic Gabriel André [4] - going insane, you have her mother's - I really think Valentine Radoux [4] was born to play this role - plotting and scheming, to say nothing of her love-affair with her brother-in-law, the duc d'Orléans. Then you have all the princes - Katherine's uncles - fighting it out. Henry V of England marching in to France to back up his nephew's throne, after the Navarrese and the Bretons and the Savoyards...all these people who are...to put it plainly...lying, cheating and killing one another just so they can come out on top.
Isobel: tell us about your character.
Christina: I play Katherine, as you said. And for a large portion of her life, the French royal court was at Toulouse (where I grew up. *makes an appropriately Toulouse-pride themed comment* rather than Paris. Paris was...chaotic...at the time, and when she was little, her uncles came to this agreement that sort of...divided custody of the royal children. Originally, the plan was that custody of Katherine would be awarded to the duc d'Orléans, and, that, eventually she would marry his son, Charles-
Isobel: Charles was quite a bit older than her, was he not?
Christina: well, we don't know exactly how much older he was than her[1] because his father had two sons named Charles. One of them obviously died in infancy, but the other was murdered in 1407. But while the show portrays Charles - Anton Czerny [4] - as nearly a decade older than Katherine, it's more likely that they were far closer in age than that.
Isobel: so she would've been six-years-old when her husband was murdered?
Christina: yes. And the show's taken some liberties with Katherine. No, Charles d'Orléans wasn't, as far as we can tell, murdered in front of her either. We actually don't know all that much about Katherine's childhood after she gets removed from Paris. And there's not really much said about her during the first decade of her life. But such an upbringing - bouncing from one place to another, the murder of your fiancé-
Isobel: that was by the duke of Burgundy, correct?
Christina: *blushes* the duc de Bourgogne - Simon Corneille [4] *fans herself dramatically - what can we say about the man. He was ruthless, ambitious and didn't let anyone stand in his way. We know that after he murdered Charles - which was an accident, he was actually trying to kill Charles' dad and things got...mixed up. It's fascinating to think how different things might have gone if he had murdered Orléans instead of his son. - he tried to stop Orléans from marrying his next son, Philippe, to Katherine, and offered a Burgundian princess [2] to Orléans instead.
Isobel: did he really think Orléans would accept?
Christina: he probably knew Orléans wouldn't, but I think he was trying to buy time so that he could get to Katherine. His second son, Jean [3] was three years younger than Katherine, and, while Burgundy already had two matches to the royal family, his daughter, Marguerite (Marianne Theodore) [4] was the duchesse de Guienne and his heir was engaged to Katherine's sister (Eleanor Chant) [4], so he might've wished to tip the scales in favour of the Burgundian party at court. We do know that he couldn't get his hands on Katherine but as I say, the next time we can pinpoint her with any accuracy is at her brother, the dauphin's funeral in 1412, because we have the accounts for mourning robes ordered for her, documenting that she was still staying with her mother.
Isobel: do you think the real cause of her decidedly odd marriage to the duc de Bourbon was to hide a pregnancy from a steamy affair like on the show
Christina: well, Katherine did have an impulsive nature, and she was a romantic - her marriages tell us this - but she was also fourteen at the time.
Isobel: so the sex aspect of the show is-
Christina: I think a lot of us were actually surprised by how much sex and scandal there was. Katherine's mother and the duc d'Orléans, Philippe de Vertus and the duchesse de Guienne, and so on for the simple reason that you look at the portraits of these people and you can't think of them as "sexy".
Isobel: back to the duc de Bourbon...what was the reason for the marriage?
Christina: again. This is one of those things we can't know what drove it. We know the Bourbons were wealthy and the duc was the grandson of the great duc de Berri, who was heavily involved both in screwing the Burgundians over and backing the royalist party. But no records of how this "match" came about survive. It could've been a love match, or it could've been coldly calculated (as portrayed in the show). We also know that it was around this time that the king of Castile came looking for a match with Katherine, the problem is that both Katherine and her niece with the same name are "Katherine, daughter of Charles", which makes it difficult to ascertain which Katherine he was looking to wed. The show has used that...ambiguity to portray her having an affair when the king of Castile - played by Georges Barath [4] - comes to France to find a wife. The truth is that the king of Castile wouldn't have come to France at all, and even if he had, it's highly doubtful that she would've behaved in such a manner.
Isobel: So, the season ends with her marrying the duc de Bourbon in front of the whole court. She's clearly pregnant, the baby's made out to be his, but in the trailer we meet a new character...
Christina: ah, the king in exile. James of Scotland., Andrew Kern [4], yes...he's going to be rather important to the plot going forward...that's all I can say. *smiles enigmatically*
Isobel: thank you once again, Christina. For those of you at home, I'm Isobel Cooper, with Christina Sterling on the set of season 3 of The Lily and the Lion, starts next Thursday at nine p.m. Don't miss it.


[1] this is roughly OTL: The Chronique de Saint-Denis records that the duchess of Orléans gave birth 26 May 1391 “dans l’hôtel royal de Saint-Paul de Paris” to “un fils...Charles”, whose godfather was “monseigneur le duc de Bourbon”. Père Anselme states that “[le] 20. compte de Jean Perdrier” records that “Charles” died “l’année suivante en l’hôtel de S. Paul” and was buried “en l’église des Celestins de Paris le lundi 27 septembre”. Anselme links this latter entry to Charles who was born 24 Nov 1394 (see below), meaning that “l’année suivante” would be 1395. He assumes that Charles born 26 May 1391 was the duke’s son who succeeded his father in 1407. Without seeing the original entry in the “Perdrier” account, it is impossible to assess the true position, although it seems unlikely that two sons of Louis Duke of Orléans would have been given the same name as only exceptional cases of duplicate names can be observed in the Valois/Capet family. His godfather being Louis II Duc de Bourbon, as recorded in the Chronique de Saint-Denis as noted above, suggests that his name “Charles” in the same source was an error and that his actual name was Louis.
[2] OTL. Burgundy's second daughter, Catherine, was betrothed to Philippe d'Orléans, Comte de Vertus in 1410
[3] Anne of Burgundy, OTL duchess of Bedford, is born male
[4] all fictional characters, but imagine something (appearance wise) of The Tudors crossed with Game of Thrones crossed with your average soap-opera
 
My latest offering (same world as Lorraine-Luxemburg, Brabant-Loon). My thanks to @Zulfurium (who I've been bouncing this idea off for...quite a while):



Thoughts, comments and criticisms welcome

@Jan Olbracht @Zygmunt Stary @isabella @everyone else
Stupid question but WERE one of the stillborn daughters (born in either 1347/49) to be born alive, would one of them be considered for Ulrich IV of Württemberg (instead of Elisabeth of Bavaria (b.1329)). I ask because Ulrich's dad was a lifelong opponent of Karl IV, but here Ludwig's daughter is married to Karl's brother. So might this be considered "too much" for Württemberg to stomach?

@Jan Olbracht @Zygmunt Stary
 
Ooh interesting, I'm not sure how exactly this would change low country politics but I'm sure it would have an impact.

Here's a look at the next generation:

Jeanne, Duchess of Brabant & Limburg [1355-1399[1]] (1322-1406) 1m: 1334 Willem IV, Count of Hainaut & Holland (1307-1345); 2m: 1353 Dietrich IV, Comte of Loon (1322-1371[2])

[1m.] Willem (1345)​
[2m.] Johan IV, Duke of Brabant & Limburg, Margrave of Antwerp, Lord of Mechelen[3] (1353-1405) m: 1371 Katharina of Bavaria-Straubing[4] (b.1361)​
Johanna (1381-1440) m: 1400​
Johan (1382-1383)​
Albert (1383-1383)​
Hendrik V, Duke of Brabant (1384-1428)​
Margareta (1386-1460)​
Diederik (1388-1397)​
[2m.] Pierre, Admiral of France [1405-1408], Lieutenant General in Champagne, Chamberlain du Roi (1354-1428) 1m: 1385 Marie of Namur (1358-1412); 2m: 1415 Isabella von Rappoltstein[5] (1378-1410)​
[1m.] Johanna (1386)​
[1m.] Peter (1389-1390)​
[1m.] Marie (b.1391) m: 1410​
[1m.] Stillborn Child (1392)​
[1m.] Katharina (b.1395)​
[2m.] Marie (1356-1425) m: 1368[6] Eduard, Duke of Guelders (1336-1389[7])​
Maria (1375-1376)​
Johanna (1378-1403)​
Eduard (1380)​
Elisabeth (1383-1440) m: Hermann of Hesse[8] (1381-1409)​
Willem II, Duke of Guelders (1386-1443)​
Reinhold (1386-1440)​
[2m.] Matilda (1358-1413) m: 1373 Willem VI[9], Count of Holland & Hainaut (1356-1423)​
Willem VII, Count of Holland & Hainaut (1374-1382) m: 1385 Marguerite of Burgundy (1374-1441)​
Willem (1392-1411)​
Jakoba (1395-1433) m:​
Lodewijk I, Count of Holland & Hainaut (1397-1461) m: 1415 Jeanne of Burgundy (1397-1450)​
Maria (1399)​
Johan (1402-1422)​
Margareta (1376-1426) m: 1385 Jean II, Duke of Burgundy (b.1371)​
Marguerite (1391-1419) 1m: 1404/1412 Louis, Duc de Guyenne (1396-1415); 2m: Philippe, Comte de Vertus (1396-)​
Philippe, Comte de Charolais (b.1393) 1m: 1409 [ann. 1418] Marie de Valois (1393-1438); 2m: 1420​
Marie (b.1395) m: 1409 Henry V, King of England (b.1387)​
Isabelle (b.1396) m: 1406 Olivier, Comte de Penthièvre (b.1389)​
Jeanne (b.1397) m: 1415 Lodewijk I, Count of Holland (1397-1461)​
Anne (b.1399)​
Louis, Comte de Nevers (b.1402)​
Agnes (b.1404) m:​
Matilda (1378-1390)​



[1] Died of the plague
[2] For the purposes of this exercise we are assuming he’s legitimate and single at the time (OTL he married Isabella van der Hagen, but I can’t find a date)
[3] Brabant lost both these territories to the count of Flanders in the Treaty of Ath. With a legitimate male heir, I suspect that Flanders will find it more difficult to take them
[4] OTL wife of Eduard of Guelders
[5] Half-sister of Smassmann von Rappoltstein (who married Catherine of Burgundy, Dowager Duchess of Austria) and Johanna von Rappoltstein who married Egon II of Habsburg, Count of Kyrburg
[6] OTL he was engaged at this time to Katharina of Bavaria-Straubing – a seven-year-old. And this marriage is agreed in exchange for Brabant dropping their support for Eduard’s brother, Reinhold the Fat (the duchess of Brabant’s brother-in-law).
[7] Due to no signing of a treaty with Karl IV/Wenzel of Luxemburg, Eduard isn’t found in breach for not protecting Brabanter merchants, so no Battle of Baeswiller and no OTL death in 1371. Ergo, no Gueldrian War of Succession
[8] Second son of Hermann II the Scholar of Hesse and Beatrice of Lorraine-Luxemburg
[9] Son of Wilhelm V of Bavaria-Straubing, Count of Holland and Matilda of Lancaster. Figure a second stab at a Holland-Hainaut-Brabant marriage is not that unlikely

@isabella @Jan Olbracht @Carolus us @RedKing @material_boy @Ivan Lupo @CaptainShadow @VVD0D95 @The Professor @Zygmunt Stary @Zulfurium @Brita @FouDuRoy @pompejus @Janprimus @Parma
 
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An idea for a 15th century Low Countries that isn't a Burgundy-wank like OTL (Work-in-progress)
Wilhelm VI, Count of Holland & Hainaut, Duke of Bavaria-Straubing[1] (1356-1423) m: 1373 Matilda of Brabant (1358-1413)

Wilhelm VII, Count of Holland & Hainaut, Duke of Bavaria-Straubing (1374-) m: 1385 Marguerite of Burgundy (1374-1441)

Wilhelm (1392-1411)​
Jakoba (1395-1433) m: 1409 Enguerrand VIII[2], Sieur de Coucy (1386-1437)​
Enguerrand IX, Sieur de Coucy (1413-) m: 1425 Marguerite of Burgundy (1411-)​
Marie (1435-) m: Scotland?​
Stillborn Child (1438)​
Enguerrand X, Sieur de Coucy (1441-) m: 1466 Marie d’Orléans (1444-1499)​
Enguerrand XI, Sieur de Coucy (1470-)​
Marie (1475-1477)​
Marguerite (1479-)​
Philippe, Archbishop of Liège (1442-)​
Jacqueline (1444-)​
Stillborn Daughter (1415)​
Marguerite (1418-1419)​
Isabelle (1423-)​
Stillborn Son (1424)​
Stillborn Child (1427)​
Ludwig VIII[3], Count of Holland & Hainaut, Duke of Bavaria-Straubing (1397-1461) m: 1423 Maria of Cleves[4] (1404-1467)​
Wilhelm VIII, Count of Holland & Hainaut, Duke of Bavaria-Straubing (1426-1486) m: 1445 Annabella of Scotland[5] (1430-1479)​
Jakob (1448-4453)​
Anton (1451-1453)​
Wilhelm IX, Count of Holland & Hainaut, Duke of Bavaria-Straubing (1453-1501) m: 1484 Anna of Brunswick (1459-1520)​
Maria (1456)​
Johann (1457)​
Margarethe (1460-1491) m: 1474 Philipp, Elector Palatine of the Rhine (1448-1508)​
Anna (1461-1511) m: 1488 Wilhelm I, Landgrave of Hesse (1456/1466-1515)​
Albrecht (1464)​
Johann (1429)​
Margarethe (1431-1446)​
Katharina (1435-1489)​
Maria (1399)​
Johann (1402-1422)​
Margareta (1376-1426) m: 1385 Jean II, Duke of Burgundy (1371-1436)

Marguerite (1391-1419)1m: 1404/1412 Louis, Duc de Guyenne (1396-1415); 2m: Philippe, Comte de Vertus (1396-14xx)​
[2m.] Louis II, Duc d’Orléans (1417-1480) m: ?​
Marie (1444-1499) m: Enguerrand X, Sieur de Coucy (1441-)​
others​
Philippe III, Duke of Burgundy (1393-1469) 1m: 1409 [ann.1418] Marie de Valois (1393-1438); 2m: 1419​
[1m.] Marguerite (1411-) m: 1425 Enguerrand IX, Sieur de Coucy (1413-)​
[1m.] Marie (1412-)​
[1m.] Anne (1416-) m: Aragon​
[2m.] Antoine (1421-1427)​
[2m.] Charles, Comte de Charolais (1422-1455) m: 1440 Isabelle of France[6] (1423-1473)​
Charles (1449-1464)​
Jean II, Duke of Burgundy (1451-)​
Isabelle (1454-1479) m: 1470 Jean II, Duke of Lorraine (1452-1504)​
Marie (1456-1529) m: 1472 Maximilian of Austria[7] (1455-1518)​
[2m.] Catherine (1424-1430)​
[2m.] Jean, Cardinal [], Archbishop of Cologne [1463-1474] (1426-1475)​
[2m.] Anne (1429-1485) m: duke of Cleves[8]
Marie (1395-) m: 1406 Henry V, King of England (1386-)​
Isabelle (1396-) m: 1406 Olivier, Comte de Penthièvre (1389-)​
Jeanne (1397-) m: 1415​
Anne (1399-)​
Louis, Comte de Nevers (1402-)​
Agnes (1404-)​


[1] Son of Wilhelm VI of Holland and Matilda of Lancaster
[2] Son of Enguerrand VII, Earl of Bedford, Sieur de Coucy and his second wife
[3] This is his number as duke of Bavaria not count of Holland
[4] Oldest daughter of Marie of Burgundy (OTL duchess of Savoy) and the duke of Cleves
[5] Daughter of James I of Scotland and Catherine de Valois
[6] Eldest daughter of Charles VII and Isabel I, Queen of Navarre
[7] Not OTL Maximilian, but the son of Emperor Frederick III and Joan of Scotland (b.1439)
[8] Nephew of the countess of Holland
@RedKing @material_boy @Marc Anthony @VVD0D95 @Jan Olbracht @Zygmunt Stary @Brita @CaptainShadow @Carolus @FouDuRoy @Ivan Lupo @isabella
 
i like it, i wonder if Enguerrand VIII will have an interesting life comparable to tat of his father. also i wonder with Henry V of England marrying Marie instead of Catherine of their child will be mad
 
i like it, i wonder if Enguerrand VIII will have an interesting life comparable to tat of his father.
I think Enguerrand VIII will spend a large portion of his life trying to keep what he has. The inheritance is rather "far flung" after all (with holdings in the Sundgau, Naples, northern France, the Netherlands, - think there was something in Provence as well), so I suspect he might end up like Karl V constantly running to put out fires.
also i wonder with Henry V of England marrying Marie instead of Catherine of their child will be mad
If OTL Henry VI's madness is due to his Bourbon blood, then I think it's very plausible that their children will be "saner". However, that doesn't necessarily signify that they'll be good kings. History is littered with conquerors and great kings who didn't live up to their father's legacy (Edward II and Richard II being the two most recent examples to the English)
 
I think Enguerrand VIII will spend a large portion of his life trying to keep what he has. The inheritance is rather "far flung" after all (with holdings in the Sundgau, Naples, northern France, the Netherlands, - think there was something in Provence as well), so I suspect he might end up like Karl V constantly running to put out fires.

If OTL Henry VI's madness is due to his Bourbon blood, then I think it's very plausible that their children will be "saner". However, that doesn't necessarily signify that they'll be good kings. History is littered with conquerors and great kings who didn't live up to their father's legacy (Edward II and Richard II being the two most recent examples to the English)
agreed also yes many times the ''son of a great man'' is disapointing (met some myself) anyway i really hope you do a fully fledged TL about it
 
James I, King of Scots, Grandfather of Europe
Showcasing the life and times of Charles VI's youngest daughter, Catherine de Valois:

James I, King of Scots (1394-1442) m: 1424 Catherine de Valois, Dowager Duchesse de Bourbon (b.1401)

James II, King of Scots (b.1425) m: 1448 Margareta of Denmark [1] (b.1428)​
James, Duke of Rothesay (1451-1459)​
Stillborn Son (1454)​
Mary (b.1455)​
Margaret (1457-1459)​
David, Duke of Rothesay (b.1463)​
Stillborn Son (1465)​

Stillborn Son (1426)​
Margaret (1429-1455) m: 1443 Pietro, Duke of Calabria[2] (1427-1458)​
Ludovico (1443-1453)​
Carlo (b.1446)​
Margherita (b.1448)​
Maria (b.1450)​
Giacomo (1451)​
Caterina (b.1455)​

Annabella (b.1430) m: 1445 Wilhelm VIII, Count of Holland & Hainaut, Duke of Bavaria-Straubing [3] (1426-1486)​
For issue see previous tree​
David, Duke of Albany (1432-1446)​
Katherine (b.1435) m: 1450 Louis XI, King of France [4] (b.1434)​
Louis, Dauphin de Viennois, Prince of Viana (1454-1454)​
Marie (b.1456)​
Charles, Dauphin de Viennois, Prince of Viana (b.1457)​
Pierre (b.1459)​
Louise (b.1462)​
Jacques (1464-1473)​
François (b.1468)​
Jeanne (b.1470)​
Stillborn Son (1471)​
Marguerite (b.1472)​
Philippe (1473-1475)​
Catherine (b.1474)​

Stillborn Son (1437)​
Joan (b.1439) m: 1453 Francesco II, Duke of Savoy [5] (1436-1480)​
Amadeo IX, Duke of Savoy (b.1460)​
Stillborn Daughter (1463)​
Maria (b.1465)​
Giovanna (1470-1477)​
Stillborn Son (1471)​
Bianca (b.1472)​
Luisa (b.1474)​
Giacomo (b.1477)​
Stillborn Son (1478)​
Maddalena (b.1480)​
Eleanor (b.1440) m: 1455 Friedrich III, Holy Roman Emperor [6] (b.1415)​
Christoph (b.1456)​
Helene (b.1458)​
Kunigunde (b.1459)​
Maximilian (b.1460)​
Wolfgang [7] (1463-1463)​
Barbara (b.1465)​
Stillborn Son (1468)​





[1] daughter of Erik VIII of Denmark (son of Erik of Pomerania and a different wife) and Mary (b.1408) the eldest daughter of Henry V and Marie of Burgundy
[2] son of Carlo IV, King of Naples and Maria of Navarre (daughter of Catherine's oldest sister, Isabeau). Maria's older sister, the queen of Navarre, is also Louis XI's mother
[3] see previous tree
[4] third (and youngest) but oldest surviving son of Charles VII of France (grandson of Charles VI) and Isabella, Queen of Navarre.
[5] son of Francesco I, Duke of Savoy (son of Catherine's sister, Jeanne, and Amadeus VIII of Savoy)
[6] yes, I know, Friedrich ending up as emperor like OTL is probably unlikely, but I figured it was easier than designating him Frederick V of Austria and having to explain it. As for the likelihood of the match, it's actually OTL. After one of his matrimonial plans (I suspect the one to Marguerite d'Anjou) failed, it was suggested that Friedrich marry the sister of the dauphine/duchess of Brittany, Eleanor of Scots. Here that marriage goes through
[7] patron saint of carpenters. The names are based on Friedrich's OTL kids' names being of either obscure saints (Maximilian, Kunigunde) or likewise prompted by "religious/mystical" elements (Christopher and Helena) rather than calling them after family members


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Here's a look at the next generation:

Jeanne, Duchess of Brabant & Limburg [1355-1399[1]] (1322-1406) 1m: 1334 Willem IV, Count of Hainaut & Holland (1307-1345); 2m: 1353 Dietrich IV, Comte of Loon (1322-1371[2])

[1m.] Willem (1345)​
[2m.] Johan IV, Duke of Brabant & Limburg, Margrave of Antwerp, Lord of Mechelen[3] (1353-1405) m: 1371 Katharina of Bavaria-Straubing[4] (b.1361)​
Johanna (1381-1440) m: 1400​
Johan (1382-1383)​
Albert (1383-1383)​
Hendrik V, Duke of Brabant (1384-1428)​
Margareta (1386-1460)​
Diederik (1388-1397)​
[2m.] Pierre, Admiral of France [1405-1408], Lieutenant General in Champagne, Chamberlain du Roi (1354-1428) 1m: 1385 Marie of Namur (1358-1412); 2m: 1415 Isabella von Rappoltstein[5] (1378-1410)​
[1m.] Johanna (1386)​
[1m.] Peter (1389-1390)​
[1m.] Marie (b.1391) m: 1410​
[1m.] Stillborn Child (1392)​
[1m.] Katharina (b.1395)​
[2m.] Marie (1356-1425) m: 1368[6] Eduard, Duke of Guelders (1336-1389[7])​
Maria (1375-1376)​
Johanna (1378-1403)​
Eduard (1380)​
Elisabeth (1383-1440) m: Hermann of Hesse[8] (1381-1409)​
Willem II, Duke of Guelders (1386-1443)​
Reinhold (1386-1440)​
[2m.] Matilda (1358-1413) m: 1373 Willem VI[9], Count of Holland & Hainaut (1356-1423)​
Willem VII, Count of Holland & Hainaut (1374-1382) m: 1385 Marguerite of Burgundy (1374-1441)​
Willem (1392-1411)​
Jakoba (1395-1433) m:​
Lodewijk I, Count of Holland & Hainaut (1397-1461) m: 1415 Jeanne of Burgundy (1397-1450)​
Maria (1399)​
Johan (1402-1422)​
Margareta (1376-1426) m: 1385 Jean II, Duke of Burgundy (b.1371)​
Marguerite (1391-1419) 1m: 1404/1412 Louis, Duc de Guyenne (1396-1415); 2m: Philippe, Comte de Vertus (1396-)​
Philippe, Comte de Charolais (b.1393) 1m: 1409 [ann. 1418] Marie de Valois (1393-1438); 2m: 1420​
Marie (b.1395) m: 1409 Henry V, King of England (b.1387)​
Isabelle (b.1396) m: 1406 Olivier, Comte de Penthièvre (b.1389)​
Jeanne (b.1397) m: 1415 Lodewijk I, Count of Holland (1397-1461)​
Anne (b.1399)​
Louis, Comte de Nevers (b.1402)​
Agnes (b.1404) m:​
Matilda (1378-1390)​



[1] Died of the plague
[2] For the purposes of this exercise we are assuming he’s legitimate and single at the time (OTL he married Isabella van der Hagen, but I can’t find a date)
[3] Brabant lost both these territories to the count of Flanders in the Treaty of Ath. With a legitimate male heir, I suspect that Flanders will find it more difficult to take them
[4] OTL wife of Eduard of Guelders
[5] Half-sister of Smassmann von Rappoltstein (who married Catherine of Burgundy, Dowager Duchess of Austria) and Johanna von Rappoltstein who married Egon II of Habsburg, Count of Kyrburg
[6] OTL he was engaged at this time to Katharina of Bavaria-Straubing – a seven-year-old. And this marriage is agreed in exchange for Brabant dropping their support for Eduard’s brother, Reinhold the Fat (the duchess of Brabant’s brother-in-law).
[7] Due to no signing of a treaty with Karl IV/Wenzel of Luxemburg, Eduard isn’t found in breach for not protecting Brabanter merchants, so no Battle of Baeswiller and no OTL death in 1371. Ergo, no Gueldrian War of Succession
[8] Second son of Hermann II the Scholar of Hesse and Beatrice of Lorraine-Luxemburg
[9] Son of Wilhelm V of Bavaria-Straubing, Count of Holland and Matilda of Lancaster. Figure a second stab at a Holland-Hainaut-Brabant marriage is not that unlikely

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On an irrelevant note, why on earth are the names Johanna and Johan used for the same people's children?
 
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