Talk:Anna of Schweidnitz

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Anna or Anne?[edit]

Anna or Anne?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  16:06, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Empress Anna von Schweidnitz[edit]

For German -Holy Roman Empire queen and empress Anna von Schweidnitz, also queen of Bohemia (HRE state as well) google book search results shows Anna von Schweidnitz over 600, 300 Anne of Schweidnitz

Google book search result for Anne of Świdnica: 1 - ONE - result

Yet Wikipedia pushes Anne of Świdnica name with the 1 google book entry (a Polish book). And then you wonder, why so many people say that wikipedia is unreliable ? Wonder why 16 November 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.137.206.167 (talkcontribs) 01:08, 19 November 2007

EB1911 called her "Anna, daughter of Henry II., duke of Schweidnitz" [5], a recent English book on Medieval History uses "Anne of Schweidnitz (Świdnica)" [6] while a recent book focussing on Czech Literature and Society [7] does not mention the additional, contemporary Polish place name. Recent English books also use the German form[8]. The Czech naming "Anna Svídnická" is not even half as popular as the German "Anna von Schweidnitz", but not in English. The Polish naming variants are virtually unknown, especially in English. Only one Google book hit uses a combination of Anne and Świdnica, and that is a 1933 vintage book of Polish authors in French. [9]. So the article needs to be moved to Anne of Schweidnitz. -- Matthead discuß!     O       04:20, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Anne of Schweidnitz 6, Anna Swidnicka 6, Anna Svidnicka 9 in google books search. Next time please follow RM discussion. ≈Tulkolahten≈≈talk≈ 23:24, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Why is Anna von Schweidnitz (or of) in Wikipedia Article named Anna of Swidnica?[edit]

Google advanced book search –

By 1900 AD

Anna Schweidnitz English by 1900 AD

Anna Schweidnitz

Results:

  • By 1900 = 135 books English language refer to Anna von (of) Schweidnitz
  • By 1950 = 286 books English Anna von (of) Schweidnitz
  • By 2008 = 559 books in English: Anna von (of) Schweidnitz


Anna Swidnica English by 1950 AD

  • By 1950 - 1. book refers to Anna Swidnica
  • By 2008 - 9 books refer to Anne or Anna Swidnica
  • Anna Swidnica 2008 Google book search =141 books 5 of those state Anne or Anna Swidnica, Anne Sidnica add. about 4=9)

In 2008 google search Result:

result: 559 books state Anna von (of) Schweidnitz compared to result: 9 books state Anne or Anna Swidnica An Observer (71.137.200.98 (talk) 22:52, 26 October 2008 (UTC))

In reference to constant reverts to incorrect unhistorical name[edit]

Information.svg Welcome to Wikipedia. Although everyone is welcome to contribute constructively to the encyclopedia, you may not know that Wikipedia has a Manual of Style that should be followed to maintain a consistent, encyclopedic appearance. Using different styles throughout the encyclopedia, as you did in Anne of Świdnica, makes it harder to read. Please take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. Thank you. Please don't add links to the talk page of an article in the first sentence of the article. thanks Deconstructhis (talk) 05:25, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

The link was specifically put there to stop people from reverting. If you would have read the note linking to the discussion, you would have known not to revert to a false unhistorical name-Anne of Świdnica- again.

This name Anna/Anne Swidnica did not exist before, it is a name which was invented by 1950 where it for the first time shows up in a single book, while there are over 500 books written for centuries (see Talk:Anne of Świdnica) with the correct name Anna von Schweidnitz or Anna of Schweidnitz. An Observer (71.137.198.58 (talk) 20:52, 30 October 2008 (UTC))


: Anna Świdnica - 80 books
: Anna Świdnicka - 52 books

(there is no such thing as Swidnica) This name is proper becouse it refers to the modern name of the town. The variation of this name is used in all other Wikipedias. Only German Wikipedia uses Anna of Schweidnitz becouse it is a German equivalent of Anna Świdnicka (in English Anne of Świdnica). Opole.pl (talk) 21:43, 30 October 2008 (UTC)


Thank you for making my point. The name is an invention from the Communist times, no books in Polish before that, see see Google search all Polish books Anna Swidnica by 1960. All your books listed are from after 1960. Cheers (71.137.198.58 (talk) 23:12, 30 October 2008 (UTC))

You are still wrong, there is no such thing as Swidnica, there is Świdnica. On every Wikipedia there schould be a name in a proper language. In German Wikipedia we have Anna von Schweidnitz becouse it is a German equivalent for Anna of Świdnica (not Swidnica). On every other Wikipedia we have an equivalent of Anna of Świdnica (pol.: Anna Świdnicka. czech.: Anna Svídnická, esp.: Ana de Swidnica, hung.: Świdnicai Anna and so on). Schweidnitz is a German name for Świdnica and it is an exact equivalent (tranlation) of the Polish name. Becouse the name of the town is Świdnica and there is no English equivalent for that name we need to use the original modern name Świdnica so the Wikipedians could easily finde the city. The place for the name with German equivalent of Świdnica is ... German Wikipedia, and only German Wikipedia. Opole.pl (talk) 09:30, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia name Anne of Świdnica is unhistorical invention, only used by Wikipedia users[edit]

Anne of Świdnica is not a historical name and it is not even used in Polish books

Polish Google Book Search Anne Świdnica:

These links actually give 92 and 56 hits, but after browsing through all pages listed, none refers to the person in question, just to the town (or something not displayed). The search is malformed anyway, as using "date:0-2008" is quite pointless. Removing it yields basically the same.-- Matthead  Discuß   10:30, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Historical name is Anna von Schweidnitz (English: Anna of Schweidnitz) Anna Schweidnitz is was used by 1900 AD in 135 and by 2008 in over 500 books and is the historical name used in centuries An Observer(70.133.72.167 (talk) 18:02, 1 November 2008 (UTC))


Stefan Kieniewicz defines Polish historiography in the 60s and 70s as "characterized by a state of sui generis schizopheria - official historiography full of falsifications equivocations and half-truths" (70.133.79.167 (talk) 22:45, 2 November 2008 (UTC))

Why do you lie? The links you have given above show 91 and 56 results and not, as you said, "none"[edit]

Your numbers given next to the "Anna Schweidnitz" name are also dishonest: first one shows 89 not 135 and the second one 481 and not over 500. Thats four errors in four links - that can't be a mistake. If you want to discuss, do it in a honest way. Best wishes Opole.pl (talk) 20:54, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Right now, from my PC, the two Google links above yield 136 and 568 hits. Opole.pl, you better do not attack others like that.-- Matthead  Discuß   22:58, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

You are wrong again[edit]

There is no such thing as a historical name in these situation. It is just a name used by historians in order to distinguish this particular Anne from other famous Anns. It was created by adding after her name her place of birth. That place is Świdnica (in the German period of Silesia called Schweidnitz). We cannot say that Schweidnitz is the correct name in any way on English Wikipedia. According to the Wiki rules if there is no English equivalent for a foreign name (as it is for instance in Czech Rep.: Svídnická, Spanish.: Swidnica, Hungary: Świdnicai and German Schweidnitz) we use the oryginal one which in this case is Świdnica. Why are you trying to name the city of Świdnica Schweidnitz again? It is an exact linguistic equivalent but the true name nowadays is Świdnica and so if there is no English version we have to stick to Świdnica in order not to confuse the readers about Anne's place of birth. Opole.pl (talk) 22:24, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

That the town of Schweidnitz was renamed in 1945 is totally irrelevant to the name of the 14th century Duchy after which Anna was named. -- Matthead  Discuß   00:42, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
It has everything to do. Queen Anne had no last name that we could consider as the only proper name. She did not have any last name at all therefore she was described by adding after her name her place of birth. That place is Świdnica (in German Schweidnitz). These words mean egzactly the same. We dont have, unfortunately, any English name for Świdnica so we have to use the oryginal one (thats how it was done on all other Wikipedias including Hungarian , Spanish and so on). I wil say it again Queen Anne did not have a last name "von Schweidnitz" she did not have a lst name at all. This term "of Świdnica", "Świdnicka", "Svidnica", "von Schweidnitz" was invented later by adding her place of birth. This place is Świdnica and so on enwiki we have Ann of Świdnica. Opole.pl (talk) 07:35, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
Nobles are named after their dynasty (or their highest title), not after the birth place. According to your logic, Catherine the Great of Russia, which was born Sophia Augusta Frederica von Anhalt - Zerbst in Stettin, would be called Catherine of Sczezczin, or, as the town is in Poland, Katarzyna of Sczezczin. -- Matthead  Discuß   09:31, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
The dynasty of Anee of Świdnica is the Piast dynasty. Though in the 14h century the name was not yet in use. She did not have a last name (a title) "von Schweidnitz", such last name (title) does not exist. She was just Anne daughter of the Silesian Piast duke of Świdnica so later on she was called Anne of Świdnica (German Anna von Schweidnitz). But this is not German Wikipedia so we dont use the German equivalent of the name Świdnica but , in case of a lack of English version of the name, the oryginal one: Świdnica. The same was done on other wikipedias. So enwiki schould not act against its rules. Opole.pl (talk) 11:58, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Naming[edit]

  • "Anna von Schweidnitz" has 433 hits, of which some are in English, like "Anna von Schweidnitz" +empress or "Anna von Schweidnitz" +queen
    • John M. Jeep: Medieval Germany: An Encyclopedia, Published by Routledge, 2001 ISBN 0824076443, 9780824076443 [10]
    • Virginia Chieffo Raguin, Sarah Stanbury: Women's Space: Patronage, Place, and Gender in the Medieval Church, Published by SUNY Press, 2005, ISBN 0791463656, 9780791463659 [11]
    • David E. Wellbery, Judith Ryan, Hans Ulrich Gumbrecht et.al.: Published by Belknap Press of Harvard University Press, 2004, ISBN 0674015037, 9780674015036 [12]
    • Richard Kenneth Emmerson, Sandra Clayton-Emmerson: Key Figures in Medieval Europe: An Encyclopedia, Published by CRC Press, 2006 ISBN 0415973856, 9780415973854 [13]

Thus, according to Google Books search for post 1990 books in English, Anna von Schweidnitz is the most common name used, having the benefit of being identical to the German name of that German Queen. Obviously, the article can not stay at the unsourced "Anne of Świdnica" any longer. -- Matthead  Discuß   23:51, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

That is not the only argument here. We schould also check which name is more popular on English web.
  • "Anne of Swidnica" has 229 results on English only pages look here
  • "Anne of Świdnica" has 164 results on English only pages look here
  • "Anna von Schweidnitz" has only 79 results on English only pages look here
  • "Anna of Schweidnitz" has only 53 results on English only pages look here

So this argument is in favour of Anne of Swidnica Opole.pl (talk) 07:26, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for pointing out that "Anne of Świdnica" -wikipedia -wiki has only 10 hits, not 164, as many web pages mirror Wikipedia content, and not all pages acknowledge that. Allowing the further propagation of such OR terms is clearly unacceptable.
When looking at Google Scholar "Anne of Swidnica" has at least one hit (compared to none for the diacritic version or the Polish name), and that refers to the book Medieval Germany: An Encyclopedia already mentioned above, which on page 110 uses inconsistent naming by two different authors, while elsewhere preferring Schweidnitz. Google Scholar, with 25 hits for "Anna von Schweidnitz", shows that this is the proper name used internationally by scholars.-- Matthead  Discuß   10:02, 3 November 2008 (UTC)


The links I've given above show that in the English speaking World Wide Web The names: "Anne of Świdnica" and "Anne of Swidnica" are much better known then the German one. Than we schould not try to propagate the former name of the Polish city (which is obviously not in use any more) and stick to the oryginal one which is recognized much more widely inside the name "Anne of Swidnica" on English pages than the German one. Opole.pl (talk) 12:04, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

It appears both names are roughly as popular, and I detect streaks of nationalism ("German name is better because its German" vs "Polish name is better because its Polish") in the above discussion. I abstain as far as Świdnica vs Schweidnitz naming is concerned, just make sure redirects are in place. What is however clear is that von is not accurate (she was not German nobility); the most popular names are "Anne of Schweidnitz - 25 hits and "Anne of Schweidnitz" - 40 hits. The article should be moved to Anna of Schweidnitz. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 22:35, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Absurdity - Wikipedia User:Opole changed name to Anna of Swidnica, yet references show: Anna von Schweidnitz[edit]

Wikipedia User:Opole changed the historical name used in literature Anna von (or of) Schweidnitz to Anna of Swidnica by cut and paste.

The links to the books Opole listed as reference all show Anna von Schweidnitz and do not show Anna of Swidnica[1][2][3][4] (German: Anna von Schweidnitz und Jauer, Czech: Anna Svídnická, Polish: Anna Świdnicka) (1339 – July 11, 1362 in Prague) was Queen of Bohemia, German Queen, and Empress of the Holy Roman Empire.

Also, the current world wide web sources he refers to above as Anne of Swidnica are basically mirrors from the Wikipedia entries and are not backed up by historical literature sources, which virtually all show the name Anna von Schweidnitz or Anna of Schweidnitz.

Literature

  1. ^ John M. Jeep: Medieval Germany: An Encyclopedia, Published by Routledge, 2001 ISBN 0824076443, 9780824076443 [1]
  2. ^ Virginia Chieffo Raguin, Sarah Stanbury: Women's Space: Patronage, Place, and Gender in the Medieval Church, Published by SUNY Press, 2005, ISBN 0791463656, 9780791463659 [2]
  3. ^ David E. Wellbery, Judith Ryan, Hans Ulrich Gumbrecht et.al.: Published by Belknap Press of Harvard University Press, 2004, ISBN 0674015037, 9780674015036 [3]
  4. ^ Richard Kenneth Emmerson, Sandra Clayton-Emmerson: Key Figures in Medieval Europe: An Encyclopedia, Published by CRC Press, 2006 ISBN 0415973856, 9780415973854 [4]

An Observer (70.133.79.167 (talk) 17:15, 3 November 2008 (UTC))

Requested move[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was Sources seem to overwhelmingly support Move Parsecboy (talk) 15:12, 7 November 2008 (UTC)


Anna of SwidnicaAnna von Schweidnitz — Old name is almost unknown, new name is well-sourced in English, see sources listed above. —  Matthead  Discuß   01:53, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Survey[edit]

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.
  • Support as nom. The issue was raised over a year ago, to no avail. Some can not accept facts, and move warring even let to an IP making a Cut&Paste move, which was since fixed by an admin, see Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Cut.26Paste_move_at_Anna_von_Schweidnitz. -- Matthead  Discuß   02:01, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Against There is no "true name" here and no original, hereditary title (last name) "von Schweidnitz" or "of Świdnica" or "Świdnicka" etc. Anne came from the Piast dynasty not from some "von Schweidnitz" family. The name of the city "Świdnica" used in her name was added later on by historians. The cities name is Świdnica and there is no English equivalent for this name. Schweidnitz is a german version of Świdnica and it means egzactly the same what the Polish name (we have no situation here like the Kaliningrad/Königsberg one). Therefore the German name schould be only used on gerWiki. On enWiki, as on all other Wikis we schould use the oryginal name Świdnica. Opole.pl (talk) 14:26, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

The name Anne of Świdnica is also much better known on the internet (ie Encyclopedia Britannica) so it is not an "oryginal reaserch" as it was claimed. (see links provided above) Opole.pl (talk) 14:29, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

  • Support Good sources for the German name in English (in this case, her most well known name is her German name). Also (though not binding), 6 Google results for the current title; over 1100+ for the proposed title. PeterSymonds (talk) 14:54, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Discussion[edit]

Any additional comments:

Anna of Świdnica - Anna Świdnicka[edit]

We are dealing as ever with German pretentions to Polish territory! They ingress rape plunder, murder and burn then what they do not destroy they claim as their own. The names they Germanise. These territories that Poland managed to get back have been suffused by Germanised Polish names and it does not surprise that there is sustained effort to thrust the Germanicity back onto us. You have Danzig for Gdańsk, Auschwitz for Oświęcim, Varszau for Warszawa, und so weiter. I a Pomeranian am a Pole, whose ancestors they failed to exterminate, they tried very hard, we only survived by a miracle. Today they would insist we are German and Pommernleute of course (and they spell Pomerania with a "mm", that mmakes it German you see). Vielen dank kameraden. The same applies to dear Anna Świdnicka as we would write it. If the history book be written by a German then they would Germanise it as Anna von Schweidnitz. Note the Polish "c" is an exact equivalent of the German "tz". In their own literature I would grant them that, perhaps. But if it be the English language I see no reason to have this indeed obnoxious Germanicity thrust upon me. Yet they insist!!! If one takes a casual glance at East Germany its towns, rivers its topography, it is all in twisted Polish. The territories we have now are only a fraction of what is ours! These are facts. So get off our backs. The other thing I would mention as very relevant is that, no amount of propaganda changes facts. Anna von Schweidnitz may be recorded as such in a million references by Germans but that does not change the facts. Therefore counting German propaganda references is just that, propaganda. Auf widersehen meine Europaeische freunde.

--Antone1 (talk) 18:21, 3 March 2009 (UTC)


The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Move it back to Anna of Świdnica[edit]

"The result of the proposal was Sources seem to overwhelmingly support Move" 2 to 1 is a overwhelmingly support??? A joke?--Sobiepan (talk) 14:24, 21 January 2014 (UTC)