Talk:Siege of Thessalonica (1422–1430)

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Featured articleSiege of Thessalonica (1422–1430) is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
Did You Know Article milestones
DateProcessResult
June 10, 2017Good article nomineeListed
September 16, 2017WikiProject A-class reviewApproved
March 11, 2018Featured article candidateNot promoted
October 21, 2018Featured article candidatePromoted
Did You Know A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on July 11, 2017.
The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that during the Siege of Thessalonica in 1422–1430, the city changed hands from the Byzantine Empire to the Republic of Venice, and finally was captured by the Ottoman Empire?
Current status: Featured article

Number of inhabitants in 1430[edit]

Are you sure that the actual number of inhabitants was only 2,000 in 1430? That would reduce the second largest city of the empire to little more than a village, while Constantinople itself, according to Runciman, had 50,000 in 1453; strange odds. Are you certain the number does not refer to the defending garrison? Iblardi 13:06, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

According to the New Cambridge Medieval History, 7,000 inhabitants were taken captive when the city fell to the Ottomans in 1430 (Vol. 7, p. 778), setting a bare minimum for the total number at that time. This is in conflict with the reference to Mango in this article, which has the aforementioned very low number of 2,000. Iblardi 18:36, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Copy edit query[edit]

@Cplakidas: I am copy editing this article and have come across:

At that point, a group of aristocrats persuaded the Despot Andronikos to seek the assistance of the Republic of Venice, an initiative probably taken without consulting Constantinople.[20] In spring 1423, via the Venetian colony of Negroponte, he informed the Venetians of his intention. The only conditions Andronikos attached to his offer were that the property, customs and privileges of the city's inhabitants, their right to trade and come and go freely, and the position of the city's Orthodox Church, were respected, and that Venice would pledge to defend the city against the Ottomans.

In the second sentence it states " he informed the Venetians of his intention", but the reader has not yet been told what this is. Nor are they subsequently. This assumes that "the intention" is to transfer the city to the Venetians; the following sentence, addressing "conditions" implies this. As it reads, the "intention" would be taken to mean to merely "seek...assistance".

It seems to me that either the first sentence needs expanding/changing to read as an offer of a handover, not a seeking of assistance; or a new second sentence inserting stating what Andronikos had decided. As this seems a bit over my pay grade as a copy editor I thought it best to post it here. I would be happy to have a go at some additional words if no one responds to this. Gog the Mild (talk) 17:07, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Hi Gog the Mild, you are right, there is something missing here. Thanks for pointing it out, fixed now. Constantine 09:53, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

Ducats, aspers[edit]

Do we have a conversion rate, however rough, between ducats and aspers? Gog the Mild (talk) 17:10, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Diplomatic and military events, 1424–1429[edit]

This is a very long section. Consider breaking into 1424-27 and 1428-29 perhaps? Gog the Mild (talk) 18:42, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Fall of the city[edit]

In my opinion the first sentence of this section needs deleting. It is out of sequence and is restated later, in chronological order. I would have done it as part of copy editing, but there are 3 references which probably need reallocating. Could someone please do this? Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:19, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Gog the Mild, I've dealt with the rest of your suggestions as well. Anything further? Cheers, Constantine 10:52, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
Hi Constantine. No. It looks pretty damn good to me. You have produced a fine article[a] Thinking FA, I can't myself see much reason why it shouldn't get it; although I know that it is a high bar, and this sort of decision is also above my pay grade.
If I were being picky, and reading through the criterea, I would suggest adding a map or two, if at all possible. One to show the location of Thessalonica in relation to Constantinople, Negroponte, Venice, Gallipoli etc would be helpful to a reader. (I used my trusty Muir's Historical Atlas, but sadly I think that it is still in copyright.) A second of the immediate locality, showing the relative positions of Cassandreia and other local sites mentioned in the text. Just a thought, I don't know how doable it is.
I don't think that Christopolis is linked to Kavala; is this deliberate? Gog the Mild (talk) 12:27, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

Notes

  1. ^ And I now know more about this topic than any other detail of Byzantine or Venetian history!
A map is a good suggestion, I'll start working on one. Christopolis is mentioned and linked as "modern Kavala" in the "Background" section. Thanks a lot for your contributions here, and your kind words. What i always worry about is whether the article is accessible to people with no prior knowledge about the subject and period, and your comments are very encouraging in that regard. Best, --Constantine 12:46, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
At the risk of pointing out things which I am sure you know about Map of Venetian possessions: File:Venezianische Kolonien.png Gog the Mild (talk) 17:59, 16 January 2018 (UTC)