A place to discuss Sam Harris and to have difficult conversations with civility.
I really enjoy reading Sam Harris and his books on lack of free will, but as a guy who sees a therapist weekly and a psychiatrist monthly, the concept of changing my thoughts through CBT confuses me. How am I supposed to change something that is already predetermined? Wouldn’t the act of going to a therapist and challenging negative thought patterns be predetermined by my biology and environment in which case I did nothing on my own to do that anyways?
I feel like I’m missing something simple here and maybe I am over complicating it. I’ve been practicing CBT and mindfulness for a few years now and really struggle with controlling my thoughts so was hoping to get some input from you all. Thanks
You can "choose" to go to therapy to improve your mental health; but that choice is predicated on your desire to improve your mental health, and you didn't "choose" to desire that.
This doesn't mean that your mental health would be exactly the same whether or not you went to therapy. That part isn't "predetermined". All it means is whether or not you "choose" to go to therapy is, at bottom, the result of variables you didn't "choose".
Really the only question is, insofar as you feel like you have free will, which choice brings you the least suffering? The answer to this question does not depend on the actual metaphysics of whether or not your phenomenal sense of agency is true.
If you do CBT and you turn your life around, that was pre-determined. Nothing about CBT and meditation relates to the free will debate in any way.
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So the feeling of me wanting to get help is just an illusion from my perceived self or ego? Naturally, my body seeks to get help to heal itself which makes it feel like a choice? Or am I way off?
What motivated the act of going to a therapist? And what do you make of the people who don't have that motivation? You're assuming the choice to go a therapist is unique from all your other thoughts.
I go because I had a breakdown 2 years ago and ended up in a mental hospital. What led to that was an intense level of social paranoia.
Right but... there are other people who had the same thing and still don't seek help. They end up homeless, killing themselves, crimes of passion, turning to drugs and alcohol etc. You're attributing free will for to a decision you made, but there's no reason to think that particular decision is any different from all the others.
PS I've never ended up in a mental hospital but have had to go to the emergency room twice for mental health issues, including a suicide attempt. I've taken anti-depressants and about a jillion supplement for nearly 30 years, and done hundreds of hours of therapy. But I still don't believe in free will.
No doubt. I realize that circumstances beyond my control led me to seek help too. I was born with supportive parents and my dad has schizophrenia. At the time, I worked for a company with amazing benefits that allowed me to take months off to seek help. My wife supported me and still does. I don’t think that I made any of that happen, but I’m very glad it played out that way. I hope you’re doing better now. I just turned 34 and have been on meds for 20 years now myself. It can be rough, but I feel like the experiences at least help me to have empathy for others.
Do you believe in exercising to protect your health?
There's a difference between things being determined and being predetermined or fated. You could use a coin-flip to make some decisions and see the difference. Maybe that distinction will be helpful.
I'm surprised you express interest in controlling your thoughts. My understanding of CBT or systems like stoicism is that you want to re-frame or reinterpret your thoughts and actions, not try to control them.
Look at it this way: with no free will you are still making choices, it's just that you don't get to choose what choices you make.
As in, if you want to learn to play guitar you can't just stare at a wall and think it's out of your hands and that if it's meant to be you'll just somehow learn it, you need to make the choice to pick up the guitar and practice, but whatever choice you make will be based on things beyond your control.
Yep this exact thing is a problem for me.
Do you see a therapist too or is it the idea of having a choice in the role of your thoughts that gets you?
Basically this.
U arent
Determinism is completely different from fatalism.
If someone throws a stone at your head it is still advisable to duck.
If you have thoughts that make you a bit unhappy it still makes sense to try to get into a happier state of mind.
There would be no point in having therapy, medication or any other treatment if your thoughts and actions were NOT determined. An undetermined event, such as radioactive decay, is one that is not affected by anything you or anyone else can do.