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First post but have been browsing and reading much on this site in the last few years since I bought my 2000 Tracker and it is an awesome site.
I recently picked up a 2001 Vitara 2.0L that was 'Overheating' so he was selling for parts. The price was right and I needed a transmission for my 2000 Tracker since the input bearing was going; however this new parts Vitara has 100,000 less KMs and only some minor maintenance to be done if I can figure out the overheating it might turn into my daily driver.
The symptoms: When I drove it home (25 kms of mixed driving) from buying it, it didn't heat up at all (he had removed the thermostat) which makes sense. So I picked up a new thermostat and installed that and took it for about a 5k run this weekend and it started to approach the red, something which my Tracker has never done.
Things that I know:
- New water pump and lots of flow through rad
- New thermostat by me
- Rad cap appears to be new but not sure
- Expansion tank was full during the overheating condition which eventually retreated back to the rad once things cooled down
- Rad fan runs as soon as the engine gets turned on - which I don't think is currently the case on my Tracker? - Perhaps the fan clutch is faulty?
- Heater core appears to work with lots of heat coming out with fan turned on.
I don't really want to throw parts at it and would greatly appreciate if someone is wiling to help me troubleshoot this one. As mentioned I do have a 2000 Tracker with the same engine and not the same issues so I assume all the components within its cooling system are working so I may be able to just sway some items out to quickly test if that is recommended.
First - that radiator fan - on these vehicles, the radiator fan is a belt driven clutch fan, so it runs whenever the engine does - unless you're referring to the a/c condenser fan, which is the electric fan at the very front of the car - if that fan is coming on with the a/c off and as soon as the engine starts, it's usually an indication that the ECU thinks the engine is overheating, and it shouldn't take you long to figure out if that is correct - if the fan is running from start up with the engine cold, then you know it's not a "true" overheat condition.
This is important because the engine has a "two part" temperature sensor - one part drives the gauge, and the other tells the ECU how hot the engine is, so if you know the ECU thinks the engine is hot when it's not, then you need to determine accurately & independently how how the engine is really getting.
Infrared non contact temperature guns are relatively inexpensive ($39 when last I looked), and armed with one of those you'll know whether or not there is actually an overheat or if the problem is just a defective sensor.
And I wouldn't be surprised (given the overheating track record) that someone jury rigged the condenser fan to run full time.
Does the engine run hot at speed! If not, that suggests that air flow is adequate when moving, and points THEN to fan / clutch (air flow) issues when slow or stopped.
IF the engine in turn runs hot at speed, then I'd suspect radiator coolant passages laden with heat transfer inhibiting debris. Replacement radiators are CHEAP, by the way.
IF the engine in turn runs hot at speed, then I'd suspect radiator coolant passages laden with heat transfer inhibiting debris. Replacement radiators are CHEAP, by the way.
Thanks for the Welcome. It runs hot 'at speed' so when driving 60 KPH on my street it will start to heat up at higher RPM like say 3k rather than putting along at 2k RPM.
I am going to see if I can confirm the cooling fan clutch operation.
I am really leaning towards head gasket but am hoping it isn't. It could just be because I am looking for it but it sure seems like there is a lot of steam coming out the pipe.
I do have a leakdown tester, compression tester so may end up running some engine tests with these but want to confirm the cooling system components before I go putting too much money into it. I am only in $550 now though
To rule out a blown head gasket theory...well, loss of coolant for one, but more importantly a test for combustion gases present in the coolant would be at the top of my list to accomplish.
A coolant system pressure test will tell you that there is a leak "somewhere" in most instances. But if the leak is brought upon by higher (combustion) pressures or peculiar to the introduction of engine heat only (or cold only for that matter) the diagnosis will be flawed.
To rule out a the blown head gasket theory...well, loss of coolant for one, but more importantly a check for combustion gases present in the coolant would be at the top of my list to accomplish.
A coolant system pressure test will tell you that there is a leak "somewhere" in most instances. But if the leak is brought upon by high pressures or with the introduction of heat (or cold only for that matter) the diagnosis will be flawed.
The Combustion Test kits are available in my location for not too much money and a DIY. Your local Radiator / Automotive Shop would conduct such a test (for a small fee), I presume.
Swapping out radiators (although a PITA) is one way to go / test for radiator problems IF the replacement is a good unit.
The Combustion Test kits are available in my location for not too much money and a DIY. Your local Radiator / Automotive Shop would conduct such a test (for a small fee), I presume.
Swapping out radiators (although a PITA) is one way to go / test IF the replacement is a good unit.
Going to try Carquest/NAPA to see if they have the kits to test. I think I would like to give that a go and maybe a little more troubleshooting of the exact conditions under when it runs hot.
The very interesting thing to me was that without the Tstat in on the drive home including in town and some high speed highway the needle didn't even register on the gauge which I would think rules out the head gasket.
The very interesting thing to me was that without the Tstat in on the drive home including in town and some high speed highway the needle didn't even register on the gauge which I would think rules out the head gasket.
That is an interesting point, however the engine needs to operate at its normal temperature parameters to possibly cause what MIGHT be a combustion (or any) leak for that matter.
In other words...cold engines and minus a T-Stat, hampers proper troubleshooting.
Gotcha, makes sense. From here on out I will ignore the conditions on the drive home. Without all the engine up to temp (expanding metals, raised fluid temps and changes in viscosity etc.) you are right those aren't real world conditions.
Might be a silly & dangerous way to test this without the kit, but if you could open the radiator cap when it's hot somehow , and if there is unusual air bubbles on coolant (with some RPM), that's a tip telling you that there is a blown head gasket leaking hot combustion gas in to the coolant.
I have already attempted this 'silly & dangerous' way and it is silly and dangerous. I ended up with a geyser of coolant that I was able to get out of the way of since I had rags covering the cap and gloves on.
So tonight will hopefully be the night. I will be working outside in the cold via a headlamp but will try and get some troubleshooting done.
I am armed with a temperature gun, 1 gallon of pre-mix coolant, and a combustion byproduct test kit from Carquest ($45). Hoping to find a plugged radiator since they are under $100 shipped in Canada.
Any suggestions on making sure the cooling system is burped? Right now I have a rad that is partially full because of a geyser as mentioned above.
Hoping to be able to take a systematic approach and find the problem. Will keep you all posted.
Burping...just top off the radiator (cold) and the recovery tank to the cold level as well.
Running / driving it for a few heat-up / cool-down cycles will expel any air and will lower (somewhat) a cold recovery tank level for you to add any make-up as needed. Having the heater on will help the purge, but not like what was mandatory in the old days, when vehicles actually had a water shut-off valve in the heater circuit.
You'll need a properly seating radiator cap (upper and lower gasket potions AND a fluid tight hose & connections between the rad and recovery tank.
Burping...just top off the radiator (cold) and the recovery tank to the cold level as well.
Running / driving it for a few heat-up / cool-down cycles will expel any air and will lower (somewhat) a cold recovery tank level to add any make-up. Having the heater on will help the purge, but not like what was mandatory in the old days, when vehicles actually had a water shut-off valve in the heater circuit.
You'll need a properly seating radiator cap (upper and lower gasket potions AND a fluid tight hose & connections between the rad and recovery tank.
One more observation/question that I didn't think was an issue that you just pointed out. The recovery tank cap on mine is not a tight seal - Could this be the source of all this?
You just need a leak-proof connection where the hose attaches to the cap top AND where attached under the cap for the in-tank hose section who's bitter end is always maintained (submerged) in fluid.
Got a chance to look at it tonight and am 99% confident that it is the radiator that is plugged. Reasons for this/the process:
1. Checked inlet and outlet temps on Tracker after limping home from work with failing input shaft transmission bearing and inlet was between 78-80C and outlet was around 30-35C
2. Fan speed, resistance and belt tension were checked on working tracker and fan has minor resistance to spinning but not really any amount.
3. Checked for same on Vitara and similar fan resistance, tension and speed.
4. Warmed up Vitara in the yard at 2,500 RPM will checking Tstat housing temp and Rad inlet temp to see when Tstat opened.
5. Temp gauge in dash reached operating temp and thermostat house reached about 78C at which point the Rad inlet started to heat up to around 70C give or take. The interesting thing is that the outlet was not above 5C.
6. Took Vitara for a 'normal' drive around my neighbourhood loop about 5kms at 60kph in 4th gear and it didn't overheat.
7. Returned to driveway and check inlet and outlet temps and still 75+C inlet and less than 10C outlet.
8. Ran engine at 3k RPM while sitting there until temp gauge well over half way at which point the tstat was for sure open and the inlet continued to get hot while the outlet temp rose only slightly but never anywhere near the 30C temp seen on the Tracker.
Conclusion: Plugged radiator! This is also reinforced by looking at the impeller of the old water pump that was removed by PO and pitting/corrosion is apparent on the blades of the impeller meaning at some point the cooling system was contaminated (hopefully not with stop leak on the head gasket) and likely proceeded through the radiator and plugged it up.
The reason I say 99% confident is that after engine shut down there was a lot of gurgling apparent from the cooling system which leads me to believe that it may have been an air lock, however the system as I understand it is supposed to self bleed?
reading through all these posts there is no doubt it will be a blocked radiator for sure.
new ones on ebay are cheap and while your at it throw a full set of genuine hoses on it as well, will cost a few more bucks but you will never have to replace them again, aftermarket crap doesn't last very long!
while its out give the engine a good flush by removing the thermostat and stick a hose in it with running water.
I have recently fully flushed system and did not bother to bleed it, and did not have any trouble so i guess it is self bleed yes, also i didn't remove the thermostat, just add radiator flush additive to the coolant, ran the engine for a 20 min to get it to operating temp so it gets thermostat open, and loosen the bottom radiator cap, and refill the coolant. mine is a diesel and i'm in warm weather but no overheating issues with this process
I hope you drained and refilled it when the engine was cold, thats a sure fire way to crack a block.
When you refill it, run it with the radiator cap off until it starts to get hot and it will probably push water out the radiator filler. Replace cap, run for 5 mins or so until top of radiator is warm, gently remove cap while running, water level will probably be very low at this stage due to air pockets coming out when thermostat opens, refill with engine running, replace cap and test drive and check for leaks.
yes, Add radiator flush additive to the coolant, ran till engine makes it to operating temp, let it cool down, open the drain plug on radiator, fill it with a garden hose, and again let engine ran for 5min with garden hose feeding form top and drain plug open from bottom (this makes fully flush the additive out), refilled coolant, take for a short drive and again top-up to the level.
diesels tend to get over heated than petrol, and mine is diesel & has 170k + on the clock, but always stays on operating temp, not going even near red on temp gauge
Ordered up the Rad today and picking it up after work for $130 CAD. Little more than US pricing but am kinda antsy to install and make sure that it is the solution to the problem and don't mind paying a little more.
Then its on to the drivers side wheel that moves laterally when pushed at the 12 O'Clock position while sitting on the ground.
why replace if flushing might work? I've always had good results using a garden hose. drain, close plug, fill, drain, close/fill again, drain etc.. doesn't need to flush through the engine, we're just clearing gunk from the radiator.
I'll sometimes use detergent (palmolive oxy is THE BEST) and/or a toilet bowl cleaner, if i've d/c the hoses.
plenty of chunkage will come out!
the most gunked-up coolant systems I've seen have been in vehicles which have had a head/or gasket go prior, then been repaired. oil mixed with the coolant, but was not thoroughly removed from the entire system during rebuild. often an indicator is if the engine is not losing fluids (or you know it's been repaired), and in the coolant overflow reservoir, or in the radiator itself, visibly you can see anything greasy.
Think I will give this a try tonight if the weather cooperates instead of installing new. So the process goes like this:
1. Open drain and drain
2. Disconnect upper and lower hose
3. Close drain and fill with Garden hose
4. Repeat until clear water
5. Connect and fill with coolant
6. Start engine and check in and out temps and hopefully all is good?
7. Return Rad to store & buy different parts with same money
The overflow bottle looks nice and clear (much better than on the tracker) and there was only a small amount of corrosion on the impeller blades which leads me to believe that it hasn't had a stop leak put in it but who knows.....
My "flushing" experience has met with good and bad results.
The bad being wiped-out shaft seals on the water pump (resulting in coolant leakage) from the releasing of particulate matter (rust, corrosion remnants, scale) that then circulate through the pump. Each time it was never an instantaneous leak, but weeks later.
there's always that risk; whenever messing with an unfiltered system designed to be kept clean, particulates can be disturbed which lead to failure. Never understood the lack of filtering, especially on marine engine cooling, and also 2 stroke oil systems.
@glenski .. yup, disconnecting the hoses and flushing well shouldn't risk any harm. If you are ambitious, can attach the fill hose to where other hoses were, or to the drain plug, which might help clearing of clogs..
I tried flushing tonight and no obvious crud came out so since I'm already out of pocket for the new rad I am going to install Saturday morning. I'm sure if I was real ambitious I could get it flushed but it is dark and snowing outside and I'm sick and in no mood for too much fooling around.
Just doesn't seem as if the problem is your radiator itself. Would have to be quite plugged to undermine its efficiency so thoroughly.
If the coolant pump is circulating as it should, the radiator flow should be enough to hold temps consistent, at the least.
Are there any other symptoms from the engine itself, signs of a cause for it to overheat -perhaps the cam/timing chain is off a tooth?
Don't concentrate too much on the volume which will pass through the radiator -so long as the in/outlets aren't themselves blocked (which is hard to imagine happening, other than due to freezing) the actual volume flowing shouldn't vary much. The radiator works by having coolant flow through multiple tubes, with the fins pulling heat away from the tubes. If one or two tubes are clogged, water will still flow freely through the others, albeit perhaps faster. The cooling efficiency will suffer: Say a radiator has 6 passages through it, If 2 were stopped-up, that's basically 1/3rd less cooling capability.
Ok, so just went out and filled with coolant 3.5L and then topped up with water and it took about maybe 2L including me putting some in the overflow. Took a long time to warm up and I did so with the rad cap off. After the gauge reaching operating temp i went out and checked the engine bay and low and behold the top of the rad was low which lead me to believe that at the very least air had left the system and perhaps even the tstat had opened and water was now moving.
With the temp gun though I was getting about 100C on the block right at the tsat which is supposed to open up at 80c (brand new one) and on the plastic housing where the hose connects I am reading 20C???
The engine temp kept climbing and there was actually no heat out of the heater in the cab which leads me to believe there is still air in the system. So I shut the rig off and listen in the engine bay and all I hear is gurgling and air moving through the system. Pretty sure I am done for the night and will check the level of the rad before I leave for work in the morning and expect it to be low meaning that more air has worked its way out of the system including through the heater core.
I am beginning to think that either the water pump installed by the PO was done wrong or that I have a faulty brand new tstat.
Using an infrared temp gun (which is adjustable) only gives you relative results -I mean, there's a different emissivity on differing materials.
The coolant level will change with the engine running or while still warm. As it's pumping, it'll fill up crevices and higher points, then when off it will flow back to the lowest points (thus also a cause of gurgling).
water pump could've been done wrong -most problems are human error. I haven't rebuilt mine yet, so I can't say if this is likely. It IS way too common for new components to fail, or be wrong for the application. Defective/wrong parts are most likely to fail within the first weeks of usage, then there's a grace period of about a year..
The opening temp of the thermostat should be printed on it.
You can test your tstat in your kitchen, on the stove. heat it in a pot of water up to temp, it should open. Don't have it sitting on the bottom of a metal pot though -hang by a wire or use a double-boiler setup (pot or colander in another pot)
Never saw this issue with cars, but if I go to Napa/Autozone etc and request a tstat for a marine engine, their system lists the correct size but it's usually the REVERSE application. IE it closes rather than opens at temp.
Not sure what you mean by knowing if oil circulation is correct?
There were two codes when I picked it up they were:
P0455 EVAP Gross Leak
P0117 Engine Coolant Temp Circuit Low Input
The P0117 I believe simply means that it overheated since I low input on the sensor relates to a high temp being read, so I don't think that tells me much. The temp gauge appears to be working just fine compared to the working tracker.
As for the EVAP gross leak I am pretty sure the EVAP system issues will be unrelated to the cooling system problems....
My radiator failed after year 12 of service. Very similar symptoms to yours. Radiator was replaced for $500 and mine is still running. It was leaking underneath and hard to troubleshoot. Also replace alternator after year 13. Replaced battery after year 14 (3rd battery). Great daily driver.
bleeding car cooling systems should be simple, but invariably its a pain. I usually run with heater on hot till thermostat opens and level drops, then top up with engine running, make sure reserve bottle is at max mark, replace cap, and road test for 2 miles keeping an eye on temp gauge. Let engine cool, then check levels, rad should be full, reserve bottle should (if all the air was out) still be on max mark, if rad is full and reserve bottle is low, the there was air in the system and water has been sucked back into the rad as system cooled. Top up reserve bottle to max mark and check daily for a week. As the system heats and cools, the flow and pressurization and depress as it cools *should* let the air work its way out. Some vehicles have a bleed bolt on the top of the engine water outlet, crack that open with the engine running just after you fit the cap as above and close it when water appears, any space left by the air will be taken up by the water sucked back in from the reserve bottle. You may need to bleed it a couple of times when its warm.
Thanks All again for your continued replies and input. I haven't really had much time to do anything with this over the holidays, however I am back home now and hoping to put some time in on it in the next couple of days.
I did make some attempts at purging the air from the system before leaving for the holidays and this is what I found. The conclusion of my findings is that I am pretty sure I at the very least need a head gasket (or perhaps worse). If everything goes well I will confirm this tomorrow with a coolant combustion gas test kit.
While attempting to bleed the air from the system after having flushed the radiator through and back through many times with clear water. With the engine running and radiator topped up (radiator cap off) along with the overflow bottle what I noticed was that once the engine would warm up to temperature and the thermostat would open so that water was flowing through the rad, every so often a burp of air would come up through the rad and in turn causing coolant to bubble over. This would continue as long as the engine was left to idle with the cap off burps of air would keep coming up through the rad top and in turn spilling coolant out of the rad.
My understanding is that this shouldn't be happening and I think this leads me to believe that air is being pressurized into the system via a leaking head gasket that is manifesting itself in burps of air once the system reaches operating temperature.
As mentioned before I plan to confirm this tomorrow. It will be -13C here tomorrow so will likely take a long time to warm up and my trusty garden hose water supply will for sure be frozen.
My late Daihatsu Rocky was having the same symptoms, unusual overheating and bubbles on rad when reaches operating temp. it was the head gasket + engine head had a crack so had to replace the engine head as well, costly , in any case if you are to replace the head gasket make sure to check the engine head as well.
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