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Insight
I've been reading into emptiness while doing a mild meditation practice. I think I'm still in the dark night so this is probably why I'm freaked out about everything.
The notion of everything being fabricated is really freaking me out. In particular, the idea that space, time and awareness are fabricated just made of sensations. I understand that there is a sense of distance in my mind when I am looking at something far away and that is probably some kind of sensation and I can kind of see the fabrication going on.
However, the space of awareness is far more difficult to wrap my head around. I notice sensations coming and going but there must be a space in which these sensations arise and pass? It seems so obvious that sensations occur in different places which implies some kind of space. Or does it?
One of the things that really help me get through the dark night is by noticing the spaciousness where sensations arise. I can kind of tap into this vast, still spaciousness and rest there for a bit which helps. But apparently this is some kind of illusion?
Apparently this is supposed to be freeing but I feel more claustrophobic now. I feel like I must be getting something wrong or looking at it the wrong way. Can anyone clarify this for me?
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Its illusory insofar as it is not independently „out there“. Its empty, not nonexistent. The phenomena of Awareness comes into being as a dependent arising of many factors (which are in turn empty, which is mind-boggling).
We go the middle way, not denying any perspective as not being real. Someone pinches you, it hurts. How can it not be real then? Its just not „really real“, you know?
24 people sitting in a room is really 24 people sitting in 24 rooms.
Dont deny experience by saying its all illusion. If the perception of awareness gives you solace, why not use it? There is no ultimately true perspective. The illusion is to not see this, to hold on to a view as being ultimately true.
Relating to the body as mine might makes sense when we care for it and relate to other people socially. It doesn’t when identifying with it leads to unnecessary suffering. Which is true most of the time.
You might want to dig into the concept of the dark night, too. Where is it right now? There is a bunch of sensations and thoughts that come and go. The label dark night might not be the best perspective on these, might make them more terrifying than they could be.
Depending on the meaning your mind gives to phenomena, how you relate to them, they can lead to more or less suffering. A pain gets much worse depending on the meaning attached to it. Due to being empty, we might as well choose a relationship that brings the least suffering.
Yes well said. Emptiness is a freedom from extremes, if we over-negate and deny conventional existence, we’re falling into the trap of nihilism. If we under-negate, we’re not seeing the true nature of entities. Nāgārjuna rejects existence, non-existence, both, and neither. We cannot make any valid claim about the existence or non-existence of entities.
I’ve never heard the 24 people statement before. I really like that.
Glad you like it, it came to me this morning while reflecting on emptiness in my journal 😁
I like it too; but when I use the metaphor, I am going to start, "Twenty-four people sitting in a comfortable boat..."
im not particulary familiar with emptiness to really understand. I can percieve spaciousness like the space in my room. I can relax tension in my body to feel a kind of spaciousness on the inside. i understand that the space is not a 'thing' per say but still, its super weird that it would just be sensations arising and passing. They have to be arising and passing somewhere right? even if that somewhere is empty.
I think my mind is doing a weird thing where it sees space and deconstructs it into sensations. But then there is the sense that instead of some things being at a distance, everything is super close to me and there is no space between 'me' and the sensations. It's quite confusing to describe.
This cant be grasped by the mind the way other ideas or concepts may be understood. All these thoughts are pointers and should not be mistaken for the moon.
You grapple with spaciousness like its a thing, independent of other things. Have you experienced spaciousness free of other phenomena? The way you here a sound and almost (!!) instantly give meaning to it (bird, crow, not me, unimportant…) without noticing most of the time. You brought a whole bird and a whole universe this bird exists in into existence just by hearing a sound.
Dont burden yourself with figuring everything out logically, it cant be done. Deepen Samadhi. Deepen insight into Anatta, Dukkha and Anicca. Throw in some Metta to keep it warm and cozy. It will come to you.
interesting. i noticed myself staring at far away objects and giving the meaning 'far away' to them. its just so weird because it seems like the sensations and qualities of the object and the sensations of being far away are actually far away which seems to be wrong. I think i took the idea that the sensations were not actually far away to mean that they are actually extremely close since there is zero distance. This i think was also a fabrication and made me quite claustrophobic. But it's really weird though. where exactly do the sensations arise if the sense of distance is also a sensation?
If emptiness practice is causing feelings of claustrophobia then perhaps aversion has subtly crept somewhere into the practice. More samadhi/metta would serve you well I think.
Once you notice the "nowhere to be found" nature of mental images and thoughts, you may begin to realize that actually everything shares that property of groundlessness, even sensations, sight and sounds.
The reason this is not obvious is because we have a lifelong habit of assuming the body or specifically the head as some sort of spatial reference point, but we can learn to "unhook" the awareness from the head.
This practice sometimes brings with it feelings of "emptiness", and it's supposed to feel good and freeing, if it's not, there's probably aversion or fear in there somewhere that need working on.
yup there is definitely a lot of aversion. I guess a part of me hates illusions and being tricked so its super scary to think space is an illusion.
An illusion isn't the same as being tricked. It's just a shorthand term for noting that the thing has no inherent self-existence.
In Zen, there is the saying that even the dissolution of illusion is itself illusory. That may be something to ponder for you.
Well said.
Also the nowhere to be found part freaks me out as well. I also don't really understand it. Like i can see my table and objects on the table. some next to others. I can see my right hand and my left hand and i can notice them moving around. is that not some kind of space at least in my perception?
If you're worried about a verbal construct that your mind (which isn't really there) created/read (in a book that isn't really there?), maybe re-think that a little bit (: ...
Physics has mapped out quite a lot of very reliable patterns of how "stuff" is doing "stuff"... nobody knows exactly what is going on, what "stuff" is, but there's very good models for most things, as far as relevant to your experience as a human being.
The point is that nothing is quite what you think it is, and that's fine. You got your basic bearings on how to "deal with reality" and the rest is to be figured out by subtle experiment.
Your brain generates very reliable simulation of the world. Keep it that way. Trust the table and the walls, they're wallsy enough. Trust that your body is mostly what you always thought it was.
The map is not the territory.
"trust the table and walls, they're wallsy enough." that's some real zen shit right there (real compliment, not sarcasm, just in case you read it the wrong way)
Mind fabricates space by arbitrarily choosing points of reference, just like it fabricates time by arbitrarily dividing experience into "chunks". Why does the same moment in time feel like an eternity to one person, but to another it goes by in a flash?
Can you notice how time depends on the mind that conceives it? How could space be any different? Is there any "space" when you're fast asleep and the mind isn't operating?
It's really all too much to explain in a reddit comment. If you work through "Seeing that Frees" everything will be clear to you, it's all there
thanks, im reading through seeing that frees. Which chapter does he talk about fabricating space?
Irrc he mostly talks about the fabrication of objects of consciousness, and since space is an object of consciousness you can extrapolate, but if the practices outlined in the book aren't enough to make it "click" for you, there are a couple of videos on YouTube by Angelo Dillulo I think which cover this topic specifically, pretty sure you can find them with a quick search
I see from your post history that you're struggling with OCD. If so, you'd probably benefit from talking to a therapist about this.
FWIW, the way I approach this is a kind of agnosticism regarding the ontological status of external phenomena. Maybe imputed external phenomena are real, or maybe they're illusion; the important point, from a Buddhist perspective IMO, is that they're imputed from personal experience. Or another way to look at is that we don't directly experience external objects. What we directly experience is mental phenomena, which may represent external objects, but we ignore this mental representational layer and think we're interacting with imputed phenomena directly through our bodies or minds. I associate this with the vijñaptimātratā-vāda interpretation of Yogacara.
So it's not that space per se, whatever that is, is fabricated. It's that the perception of space is fabricated, and even if that perception ascribes ontological status to space, that ascription is fabricated too. But the important thing from a Buddhist perspective is to recognize it as a fabrication. You don't do that by sorting out its truth value in the imputed external world. That's an orthogonal concern, except in as much as whatever you decide in that regard will be represented in terms of fabrications, too.
yup seeing one already. The OCD is probably not making things better.
I think whats freaking me out is not really whether external space is real. its more that the spaciousness in my mind is some kind of illusion. I've been doing some exercises from seeing that frees where I focus on spaciousness and the space of the room and the spaciousness between objects which really helps ease my mind a bit. The fact that it is fabricated is kind of disturbing.
Ah, I see. You may find this essay helpful for pointing out why it's important to release those perceptions:
im not sure i understand what this is trying to say
Find teacher with a few decades of experience teaching. Then talk with them and listen.
You're intellectualizing expirences that can arise naturally in a retreat. You're afraid of the idea of an experience because you haven't had the experience itself.
The small self, the idea of you being confined to a charter in a simulation is terrified when it's existence is challenged. You are the simulation not just a character.
Focusing on calm abiding and deep relaxation and acceptance in that state may be more beneficial to you than inquiry.
👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏
Thanks :)
well this is the problem, I can notice the sensation of how space is being constructed in my mind. there is a sense of over there-ness that I can notice. it makes me claustrophobic because it feels like all of existence is all in my head. of course my head is just sensations as well buts it's super uncomfortable
You can't notice the sensation of how space is being constructed in your mind outside of the formless jhanas. You're creating and labeling that sensation yourself and then reacting to it.
interesting...
You're still intellectualizing. If you use any words to understand an expirence you're placing layers of fabrication on top of that experience.
But you can't see that because you still believe in your idea of expirence as "real" expirence.
Yes, literally all of experience is in your head. There is no separation between you and your expirence.
Speak with a teacher in person and build a relationship. Anything else is still more intellectualizing.
yep im speaking with one now. I think the claustrophobic feeling is my intellectualizing that all experience is in my head and then my mind creating the sense that all sensations are literally in the sense of space in my head area. super close to the sense of the observer. I think this makes my mind feel very contracted
It sounds like you're having a lot of thoughts about the constructedness of space and those thoughts are freaking you out. Maybe take some time to notice thoughts as thoughts?
With abundant gratitude and metta to soften the unneeded aversion and facilitate acceptance, being ok with all phenomena.
You're getting freaked out by ideas. Just look, and tell me, are there any problems? Forget the ideas. You're building a weird paradigm in your head that's freaking you out... this is the opposite of what this path is about.
Emptiness means you're not attached to any view of perspective whatsoever, including the perspective that everything is empty or a construct.
not really ideas, I can't help but notice that the over-thereness of objects are just sensation that arise.
Bro you are just repeating the cycle of previous OCDs, how many times does this have to occur for you to see and break this?
What is freeing is looking at your own behavior and noticing: I have seen this reaction before, I know how it goes, I read something scary, I will freak out for a bit and then forget about it completely.
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It's not even about the material world at this point. its the idea that there is no space even in my awareness.
This is a very common "freakout" moment, and it can be quite disorienting. Sometimes it can lead even to some panic attacks.
The thing to keep in mind is fairly simple, though: reality is what it is, and it will never change.
If reality is fabricated, so what? You've been living your entire life without knowing that, and how has that affected the things you have to do? In other words: the fundamental nature of reality is completely irrelevant.
It doesn't matter if this universe is the creation of God Almighty, a simulation, an accident, or the dream of the Great Azathoth: you still have to breathe, eat, drink, shit, and sleep. Regardless of WHAT reality is, this is the lot of all living things, in one way or another. Everything beyond those five things is pure conjecture. It's Sankhara.
The Buddha lived for eighty years in this good earth. For eighty years he had to breathe, eat, drink, shit, and sleep. Before his Awakening, he had to breathe, eat, drink, shit, and sleep. After his Awakening, he still had to breathe, eat, drink, shit, and sleep.
The Christ lived for 33 years in this good earth. For 33 years he had to breathe, eat, drink, shit, and sleep.
This is what is, my brother. Everything else? Nonsense.
Maybe it’s time to face fear. My understanding of fear is that it is simply the experience of our awareness deciding something is wrong and running away. In doing so not letting it go, because then what would you be running away from, and therefore manifesting the thing you are afraid of. But there never was a thing only a process of decisions and reactions that create the illusion of fear. When you look into yourself enough and look directly at the fear, there’s nothing there. And when you slow down your mind enough and pay attention, you can see how it works and how the fear is created.
It’s all really wonderful!
Tables aren't real either, as they are constantly decaying, are arbitrarily defined, etc. But for practical purposes they hold stuff on top of them.
No need to freak out about the fabricated/constructed nature of everything. The way out of the Dark Night is equanimity. Practice just chilling with everything and you'll be fine.
Maybe there is some metaphysical space in which these things take place … thinking about it we point to the background of fabrications and not the foreground, and so come closer to grasping whatever it is (or closer to releasing fabrications.)
But in feeling spaciousness, your mind is trying to make an accurate metaphor for this background of all. That’s fine. Good mind! But it’s also just a metaphor or fabrication which can also be enjoyed and then released.
Like all our words here are fabrications and thus to some extent unreliable and not having a true solid real identity (prone to misinterpretation) and so on.
The mind wants to go beyond fabrication and then arrive somewhere …
… Awareness being aware of awareness (as Presence perhaps, or a space, or …) is superior to being involved in fabrications (contents) being produced by awareness. That could be a good place to rest as long as you don’t 100% take it seriously.
Take it with a little smile. Hello mind, thanks! Good place to rest.
You would probably benefit from a clarified progression through the jhanas. Specifically the immaterial (5-8) jhanas.
This will help you organise space and nothingness in a way that they relate to each other and bring the experience to a more neutral place.
I spent a month exploring exactly this a few years ago. When birdsong would arise I’d notice the sound but also the quality of “over thereness” that arises which places it in space. The two coarise. You soon realize that even space and stillness are subtle thought objects as long as you are holding them in awareness
What always tends to bring some solace to me in those moments, is the fact that nothing changes.
Let me emphasize that: It always was like that. You changed nothing. Before and after, nothing about your life is different. Everything always was constructed and fabricated. It is now no more constrcucted than it was yesterday, or the day you were born. Nothing has changed. And no matter what you find out or feel like tomorrow, that will change nothing about this either. Everything will remain as constructed as it always was, and always will be.
I think someone else already put it somewhat like this in the comments: This is no more an illusion than a table. A table is an agglomeration of perceptions which comes together. It comes together quite usefully, when it's about holding up a mug of coffee. It comes together quite annoyingly, when I stub my toe on it.
For most intents and purposes, it's quite helpful to see it as real.
No. I mean, the spaciousness aspect of sensation is deeply mysterious, and something deep you can explore to no end, from all kinds of directions.
If it's not too stressful for you, you can also directly look at the spaciousness aspect of the claustrophobia. It's a feeling. It happens somewhere. There is a space around it. It is vast and infinite. And, if you can tune into it, there is a space inside it, which is also vast and infinite. And when those two things collide, and intermix with other sensations in the body, you get the impression of a thing which is somewhere in a limited ball of sensations, in a limited space, which is your body.
I don't know how helpful that suggestion is, but another good way to explore spaciousness, which helps preventing those kinds of problems, is arriving there through going up the Jhana ladder. Jhanas are meditative absorptions, where you go from bodily joy, to mental joy, to contentment, equanimity, and then spaciousness. One after the other, each of those factors drops away, and is replaced by something that is more stable, more silent, more enjoyable.
Spaciousness is not the end though. Beyond spaciousness there are more silent, more stable, and more enjoyable things. After spaciousness, the next object is infinite consciousness. You rest in spaciousness, and, what works for me, is that you then look at the aspect of space perceiving you. It's not you that is aware, but the space is a space of awareness. Not you resting in space, but just space resting as awareness of whatever happens within it. That is enjoyable.
And then you let that fall fall away, and then there is nothingness. That's more enjoyable.
And then it gets strange, but very peaceful.
In short: Through progressing in this way of increasing concentration, you can gain trust that the falling away, and away, and away, of more and more stuff is enjoyable, and good, and helpful. From that context, the falling away of space (and the sensations which come with it) isn't scary anymore.
Read Walter Russel’s book “The secret of light”