Garlick / dyche or ALK/kompany ?

Gp99 · Post by **Gp99** » Mon May 13, 2024 11:54 am

Since the ALK takeover the club has been modernised yes everyone seems to be slagging ALk for the leveraged buyout and the debts but IMO I feel the club is far better placed now then it was 2 years ago .

Two years ago we had no manger and ageing squad who was mostly out of contract it was stale and needed a refresh . I can guarantee under dyche if we had kept hold of him the club wouldn’t be as modernised as it is now and we’d be stuck with the same old squad because of his stubbornness towards youth and talent .

we are a lot more attractive club and have a manager who has a lot of “player pull” to come to now under dyche/old ownership we was so unattractive and no players wanted to come to us due to the unattractive and boring style of football .

It’s great to see players who have flair and athleticism unlike under the old regime and yes it hasnt been great this season but I feel a lot better watching this style of play compared to under dyche where we would hoof it in the air and park the bus it was too old school and things went stale . Yes we’ve been poor this season but people forget how bad we was under dyche in his last season

It’s interesting to see who prefers which regime I know which I prefer

GetIntoEm · Post by **GetIntoEm** » Mon May 13, 2024 12:49 pm

ALK 100%

claptrappers_union · Post by **claptrappers_union** » Mon May 13, 2024 1:00 pm

Welcome to the messageboard Alan

Foshiznik · Post by **Foshiznik** » Mon May 13, 2024 1:02 pm

ALK if you completely ignore the debt the club picked up for ALK to "own" us.

There are alot of positives, but until the aforementioned debt is repaid, I won't be cheering for them from the rafters.

Boss Hogg · Post by **Boss Hogg** » Mon May 13, 2024 1:09 pm

We’ve a younger squad and are more marketable but we are a Championship club with a lot of debt instead of a Premier League club with no debt.

Boss Hogg · Post by **Boss Hogg** » Mon May 13, 2024 1:15 pm

I’d be interested to know the difference in the non playing staff wages under the new regime. There seem to be more active Directors who I doubt are working for free and far more back room and coaching staff ( including a set piece coach). So the borrowed money is funding far more than what we see on the pitch.

Gp99 · Post by **Gp99** » Mon May 13, 2024 1:18 pm

Boss Hogg wrote: ↑
Mon May 13, 2024 1:15 pm
I’d be interested to know the difference in the non playing staff wages under the new regime. There seem to be more active Directors who I doubt are working for free and far more back room and coaching staff ( including a set piece coach). So the borrowed money is funding far more than what we see on the pitch.

I must say when the team comes out to warmup they have about 50 back room staff there a lot more then what they was under dyche etc

ClaretPete001 · Post by **ClaretPete001** » Mon May 13, 2024 1:20 pm

Congrats - to be that disrespectful to a club icon on your first post takes some doing...!

ALK own the club and VK is the manager. They are the only team who can deliver success.

Gp99 · Post by **Gp99** » Mon May 13, 2024 1:28 pm

ClaretPete001 wrote: ↑
Mon May 13, 2024 1:20 pm
Congrats - to be that disrespectful to a club icon on your first post takes some doing...!

ALK own the club and VK is the manager. They are the only team who can deliver success.

Not being disrespectful just stating facts you can’t tell me you enjoyed the old fashioned state the club was in two years ago compared to now ?

Quickenthetempo · Post by **Quickenthetempo** » Mon May 13, 2024 1:29 pm

Pace has taking us to 2 relegations and got the academy down graded. Put the club in multiple millions of debt.
Put the price of everything up massively.

Dyche has gone on to manage a far bigger club.

beddie · Post by **beddie** » Mon May 13, 2024 1:31 pm

Being realistic Dyche did what he had to do with the money that was made available to him. If he’d have been given the money VK has spent then who’s to say he wouldn’t have bought some younger players that were a little more savvy with the PL and that would slot in amongst some more experienced ones. I assume ALK were only interested in buying nothing but young players in order to make money. So to answer the question if Garlick and Dyche had been singing from the same hymn sheet then I would have stuck with them, unfortunately Garlick wanted out so now we have ALK. I’ll not make judgment on ALK until after next season.

Gp99 · Post by **Gp99** » Mon May 13, 2024 1:33 pm

Quickenthetempo wrote: ↑
Mon May 13, 2024 1:29 pm
Pace has taking us to 2 relegations and got the academy down graded. Put the club in multiple millions of debt.
Put the price of everything up massively.

Dyche has gone on to manage a far bigger club.

Yes I appreciate that he has got 1 promotion under his belt and I’m confident they’ll be another promotion next year . The price of things were bound to increase due to cost of living .

elwaclaret · Post by **elwaclaret** » Mon May 13, 2024 1:34 pm

The question should surely be early Garlick/Dyche or ALK/Kompany?

People forget just how progressive Garlick and Dyche were in the early years. I remember walking across the wooden bridge to constantly waterlogged ‘all weather pitch’ and training facilities that Harry Potts would recognise.

ALK are trying to add to what was created, so it is a nonsense comparison (not meaning to be personal to anyone).

I have a lot of time for what AP is trying to achieve, even though it personally leaves me feeling less and less like the club I grew up feeling was ‘mine’ - a bit like when a members club becomes a social club.

On the football level, both have drawbacks SD was overly pragmatic at times for me. At times I wish VK was a little more pragmatic. I want Burnley to play progressive attacking football… but most of all I want points on the board.

Pragmatism often gets you to the point where you can be progressive without pressure… the best time for players to flourish.

I respect and admire ambition but remember when John Jackson tried to make a Great Leap Forward with the club’s ambition… and all too well what resulted.

Vim Fuego · Post by **Vim Fuego** » Mon May 13, 2024 1:38 pm

Not seeing a debate to be had if looking at results. ALK are trending us backwards since the takeover, and that is before you look at the financial health of our club. Not sure how you could make a case that we have moved forward, besides some back room modernisation. We will learn more about the trend next season, but we need to win the league again comfortably to prevent further decline

spt_claret · Post by **spt_claret** » Mon May 13, 2024 1:42 pm

Gp99 wrote: ↑
Mon May 13, 2024 1:28 pm
Not being disrespectful just stating facts you can’t tell me you enjoyed the old fashioned state the club was in two years ago compared to now ?

The club was in that state because it had just been sold to a group of financiers with no finance.
I know a lot of people can't remember pre-covid but Dyche didn't arrive in 2020, even if thats when ALK started poking around.

Under Dyche the club WAS modernised.
He brought data science, analytics, and high end fitness coaching to the club at a very high level. I'd argue his use of analytics is better than Kompany's as it focuses on maximising results with what you have, rather than assuming you can build your idealised system and working from their. Bottom up rather than top down, which is the only way you can do it with a club of limited resources which we will always be.
The training ground moved forwards into state of the art
The Academy went from near closure to top grade. It is no longer top grade- this is arguably a sign of it being LESS modern under ALK, and less youth oriented.

Under Dyche, we did promote youth. McNeil being the most notable academy progression but a number of others coming through, playing, or moving on for reasonable enough fees.
We developed players- Pope, Heaton, Mee, Trippier, Ings, Tarkowski, Keane, Cork, Gray to name but a few who tangibly improved- of which 5 received their debut England call-up under Dyche.
We had some flair until the money dried up post-covid, so that ALK could leverage the club to acquire it. Maybe less pure flair, but more substance to it at Premier League level.

Last season was a fantastic, fantastic season, but in terms of 'which would you prefer' of Kompany's 1 PL season to any of Dyche's I take Dyche's, because with less money and less resources he achieved more even in his worst year.

I feel you're confusing 'modernising' the club with pandering to trends. And I will never accept that the club was not marketable previously but I've discussed this to death. We got selfconscious over being called anti-football when we should have embraced that as a badge that we were everything that the modern game lacks but should have- integrity, community, hard work, honesty, togetherness, while also appealing to the more middle class, intellectual, analyst-y types taking an interest in the sport by highlighting our "play the percentages' mantra and extensive analytical approach to the game. Anti-football but pro-footie. We had the longest streak without a red card in top flight history I believe, certainly in PL history, yet let ourselves be tagged as negative and rough- Kompany has had the most red cards of a manager we've ever had and the most PL red cards a Burnley team has ever had yet is considered silky smooth and beautiful- it is all about branding, not reality. We had a perfectly marketable brand with a unique identity which we've thrown away to chase what other clubs are better equipped to do- clubs with a 5-10 year head start and far, far more money to throw at what is a very expensive approach.

ALK are willing to embrace social media & multimedia in general (Mission To Burnley) in a way that Garlick never did, that much I'll give them. Also more willing to sanction overseas signings, which is likely also Kompany being more connected overseas than Dyche so better able to scout internationally. But the idea that we were somehow some old fashioned backwards tinpot club stuck in the 70s until Honest Alan and Kompany came along is not based in reality, it's based on myth, ALK's very American approach to marketing, and on very unpleasant but isolated incidents by a couple of idiot fans like the Man City banner being treated as far more representative of the club than they ever were.

ClaretPete001 · Post by **ClaretPete001** » Mon May 13, 2024 1:48 pm

Gp99 wrote: ↑
Mon May 13, 2024 1:28 pm
Not being disrespectful just stating facts you can’t tell me you enjoyed the old fashioned state the club was in two years ago compared to now ?

Others have made the points at how much progress the club made under Dyche and Garlick but you are talking to the wrong person.

I thought the 2-0 win against Liverpool when we had 20 per cent possession was sublime.

It was almost like watching a ballet troupe draw lines on a stage with Steven Defour as the principal lead and Andre Gray as the raffish young pretender destined for bigger things.

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Mon May 13, 2024 2:09 pm

Seems the OP just didn’t like Dyche. Astonishing first post.

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Mon May 13, 2024 2:12 pm

ClaretPete001 wrote: ↑
Mon May 13, 2024 1:48 pm
Others have made the points at how much progress the club made under Dyche and Garlick but you are talking to the wrong person.

I thought the 2-0 win against Liverpool when we had 20 per cent possession was sublime.

It was almost like watching a ballet troupe draw lines on a stage with Steven Defour as the principal lead and Andre Gray as the raffish young pretender destined for bigger things.

Detour’s debut that but I recently watched the opening game of the following season when we won 3-2 at Chelsea. No Burnley performance has come close to that this season. JBG, Defour, Cork, Brady across midfield with Hendrick in front if them.

I wish we’d played some football this season as we did for much of three years between 2017 and 2020.

ClaretPete001 · Post by **ClaretPete001** » Mon May 13, 2024 2:22 pm

ClaretTony wrote: ↑
Mon May 13, 2024 2:12 pm
Detour’s debut that but I recently watched the opening game of the following season when we won 3-2 at Chelsea. No Burnley performance has come close to that this season. JBG, Defour, Cork, Brady across midfield with Hendrick in front if them.

I wish we’d played some football this season as we did for much of three years between 2017 and 2020.

Indeed, it was an excellent performance and a bit of a surprise; perhaps it shouldn't have been as much of a suprise because they were all very good players.

I think it has been forgotten how progressive Robbie Brady was prior to his injury. It just saddens me the way Dyche is referred to now...

Newcastleclaret93 · Post by **Newcastleclaret93** » Mon May 13, 2024 2:42 pm

Dyche/Garlick did wonders for the club.

ALK/Kompany Tbf have only taken us in one direction and it’s not forward.

Colburn_Claret · Post by **Colburn_Claret** » Mon May 13, 2024 2:45 pm

ALK, it's a long term plan, they need to be given time to establish us as a premiere league club.
We had a massive turn around of players 2 years ago, promotion imo wasn't expected at the start of the campaign.
This season could have gone better, no doubt, but I think they are looking at the long term plan, rather than a quick fix.
We are going down in a far stronger position than 2 years ago, there's lots of positives about this squad. Don't let a knee jerk reaction to relegation cloud the progress we have made.

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Mon May 13, 2024 2:54 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote: ↑
Mon May 13, 2024 2:45 pm
ALK, it's a long term plan, they need to be given time to establish us as a premiere league club.

We were established as a Premier League club when they came in. They've now taken us out of it twice. And it's a football club that we are passionate about, not a plan, not a project.

Newcastleclaret93 · Post by **Newcastleclaret93** » Mon May 13, 2024 2:56 pm

ClaretTony wrote: ↑
Mon May 13, 2024 2:54 pm
We were established as a Premier League club when they came in. They've now taken us out of it twice. And it's a football club that we are passionate about, not a plan, not a project.

Some people are blinded by faith that they can’t see what’s right in front of them.

We were an established club, we have regressed to a Yo Yo club with a worse academy.

The question is, what’s next?

123EasyasBFC · Post by **123EasyasBFC** » Mon May 13, 2024 2:57 pm

As much as last season in the championship was a breath of fresh air with the new direction of the club, I don’t see how it can be a debate the times we had from the 2013/2014 season to dyche final home against the comeback 3-2 against Everton. After we went down under laws I thought that was it for us in the premier league and to have the success we had, I don’t think we will ever have it as good as that

FeedTheArf · Post by **FeedTheArf** » Mon May 13, 2024 3:11 pm

It's too early to make the judgement between Dyche and Kompany. They've so far mirrored each others Burnley career. One promotion and one relegation in their first full two seasons. What worries me is the finances off the pitch. Yes they were bad the season we had Coyle and the embargo, but those amounts were a drop in the ocean to the amount of debt slung round our necks these days.

RVclaret · Post by **RVclaret** » Mon May 13, 2024 3:30 pm

ClaretTony wrote: ↑
Mon May 13, 2024 2:54 pm
We were established as a Premier League club when they came in. They've now taken us out of it twice. And it's a football club that we are passionate about, not a plan, not a project.

A plan and project is part of every single business out there. The best ones typically succeed. How is that different to a football club?

Vegas Claret · Post by **Vegas Claret** » Mon May 13, 2024 3:36 pm

Both, can't compare them, both utterly different scenarios. Nobody can compare the Premier League 2 or 3 seasons ago to this season where the club finishing 17th put a squad together that cost over 300 million

claretonthecoast1882 · Post by **claretonthecoast1882** » Mon May 13, 2024 3:36 pm

RVclaret wrote: ↑
Mon May 13, 2024 3:30 pm
A plan and project is part of every single business out there. The best ones typically succeed. How is that different to a football club?

You can imagine the comments if non local owners came out and said we have no plan

Quickenthetempo · Post by **Quickenthetempo** » Mon May 13, 2024 3:43 pm

claretonthecoast1882 wrote: ↑
Mon May 13, 2024 3:36 pm
You can imagine the comments if non local owners came out and said we have no plan

You will know more than me, but I've never heard any of our owners come out saying they have a plan before.

To me it's just something you would say when you're under pressure and need to buy time.

Wokingclaret · Post by **Wokingclaret** » Mon May 13, 2024 3:47 pm

Garlick had a project (no not looking for investment) but to sell

RVclaret · Post by **RVclaret** » Mon May 13, 2024 3:47 pm

Quickenthetempo wrote: ↑
Mon May 13, 2024 3:43 pm
You will know more than me, but I've never heard any of our owners come out saying they have a plan before.

To me it's just something you would say when you're under pressure and need to buy time.

And wasn’t criticism at Garlick and co that there was next to no communication with fans?

2 years ago Pace was fairly quiet post relegation and there were threads all over here ‘where’s Pace… what’s the plan… there’s no plan… why’s he so quiet’ etc.

Now he’s come out with a positive message of reassurance and calm (of course time will tell on the actual outcomes) and it’s ’why is he saying that, that’s not what a football club is, I don’t need to hear about a plan’.

claretonthecoast1882 · Post by **claretonthecoast1882** » Mon May 13, 2024 3:57 pm

Quickenthetempo wrote: ↑
Mon May 13, 2024 3:43 pm
You will know more than me, but I've never heard any of our owners come out saying they have a plan before.

To me it's just something you would say when you're under pressure and need to buy time.

There aren't many companies that have no plan and survive

Quickenthetempo · Post by **Quickenthetempo** » Mon May 13, 2024 4:00 pm

RVclaret wrote: ↑
Mon May 13, 2024 3:47 pm
And wasn’t criticism at Garlick and co that there was next to no communication with fans?

2 years ago Pace was fairly quiet post relegation and there were threads all over here ‘where’s Pace… what’s the plan… there’s no plan… why’s he so quiet’ etc.

Now he’s come out with a positive message of reassurance and calm (of course time will tell on the actual outcomes) and it’s ’why is he saying that, that’s not what a football club is, I don’t need to hear about a plan’.

We have a large fanbase who have mixed views on every topic someone brings up.

Every chairman/player/manager will have critics.

As for the plans, I prefer action over words. But that's just me.

The Board and management need to prove their worth in selling players this summer. We have struggled in this department recently.

Quickenthetempo · Post by **Quickenthetempo** » Mon May 13, 2024 4:04 pm

claretonthecoast1882 wrote: ↑
Mon May 13, 2024 3:57 pm
There aren't many companies that have no plan and survive

I was thinking more football clubs, but do any companies come out with statements saying we have a plan?

I think Ten Haag always mentions having a plan, because he's trying to buy time.

Enola Gay · Post by **Enola Gay** » Mon May 13, 2024 4:08 pm

ClaretTony wrote: ↑
Mon May 13, 2024 2:54 pm
We were established as a Premier League club when they came in. They've now taken us out of it twice. And it's a football club that we are passionate about, not a plan, not a project.

Define 'established'.

Aston Villa were established as a Premier League club, then they weren't. Ditto Newcastle, see also Southampton. Coventry had over three decades in the top flight and look what's happened there.

There are maybe 7 clubs in the Premier League who can genuinely call themselves established, in that you'd be surprised if they got relegated. Every other club is, to varying degrees, absolutely at risk.

Woodleyclaret · Post by **Woodleyclaret** » Mon May 13, 2024 4:22 pm

ALK/Kompany
We are moving forward and our youth and development squad is progressing well.
We need a few experienced hands in imo Connor Cody fits the mould and would be an excellent fit

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Mon May 13, 2024 4:35 pm

Enola Gay wrote: ↑
Mon May 13, 2024 4:08 pm
Define 'established'.

Aston Villa were established as a Premier League club, then they weren't. Ditto Newcastle, see also Southampton. Coventry had over three decades in the top flight and look what's happened there.

There are maybe 7 clubs in the Premier League who can genuinely call themselves established, in that you'd be surprised if they got relegated. Every other club is, to varying degrees, absolutely at risk.

I was replying to someone, so maybe ask that poster.

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Mon May 13, 2024 4:42 pm

Garlick/dyche without a shadow for me it was a far safer place. We are up & down like a nurses night dress with this present lot & don't think the up will necessarily happen again like some think it's a forgone conclusion take away tella/maatsen that's some impact gone.

Big Vinny K · Post by **Big Vinny K** » Mon May 13, 2024 4:47 pm

Not saying I necessarily buy into the ALK plan as I have absolutely no idea what that is - but pretty sure spending £100m plus in a season and getting relegated was not on the Gantt chart.

That said there is some selective memory on this thread. The previous owners denying Dyche funds when he needed them the most, signing dross like Dale Stephens, and allowing some of our best players to run their contracts down had an enormous impact on our eventual relegation.

Also agree with the point above about only half a dozen or so teams you could say are extremely unlikely to be relegated. Since the EPL was established is it not only 6 teams who have never been relegated. We did incredible as a club to have a sustained period in the league under Dyche but it was always going to come to an end at some point - and Dyche reminded everyone on many occasions that the only certainty is that at some point the club would get rid of him or he would leave.

It does feel that under the new owners we have entered a period of far greater uncertainty and instability. Proven by one of the best seasons ever being followed by one of the worst.

Enola Gay · Post by **Enola Gay** » Mon May 13, 2024 4:53 pm

ClaretTony wrote: ↑
Mon May 13, 2024 4:35 pm
I was replying to someone, so maybe ask that poster.

Maybe, but you're the one saying we were established in the Premier League.

I was just saying that beyond 7-or-so clubs, being established is pretty much a myth.
I've certainly never met anyone who'd describe us in that way.

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Mon May 13, 2024 5:00 pm

Enola Gay wrote: ↑
Mon May 13, 2024 4:53 pm
Maybe, but you're the one saying we were established in the Premier League.

I was just saying that beyond 7-or-so clubs, being established is pretty much a myth.
I've certainly never met anyone who'd describe us in that way.

That's not necessarily true the likes of palace Fulham & wolves Brentford everton etc can consider themselves established. Every now & again a odd 1 might drop but more often than not the promoted clubs all go & ensure they remain established.

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Mon May 13, 2024 5:00 pm

The suggestion that we were an established club and not a yo-yo club when ALK came in is a bit optimistic. It was always a matter of when, not if, we went down. We started each season among the bookies' favourites to go down and we had plenty of seasons where we were close.

Vegas Claret · Post by **Vegas Claret** » Mon May 13, 2024 5:07 pm

Jakubclaret wrote: ↑
Mon May 13, 2024 5:00 pm
That's not necessarily true the likes of palace Fulham & wolves Brentford everton etc can consider themselves established. Every now & again a odd 1 might drop but more often than not the promoted clubs all go & ensure they remain established.

None of those are established other than Everton and they just about keep hanging on

edit: I'll add, I expect it to become far easier to be 'established' going forward given the gulf between the PL and the Championship, it's why this season has to go down as a massive missed opportunity for us

Big Vinny K · Post by **Big Vinny K** » Mon May 13, 2024 5:31 pm

Is that the same wolves, Brentford and Fulham who have spent most of the last decade outside the premier league who can consider themselves established ?

123EasyasBFC · Post by **123EasyasBFC** » Mon May 13, 2024 5:44 pm

Big Vinny K wrote: ↑
Mon May 13, 2024 5:31 pm
Is that the same wolves, Brentford and Fulham who have spent most of the last decade outside the premier league who can consider themselves established ?

I think Leicester proved last season you can be classed as an established prem club and go down just like that, same with us the season before.

Everton an established top flight club flirting with relegation season after season, one day it will happen

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Mon May 13, 2024 5:54 pm

Vegas Claret wrote: ↑
Mon May 13, 2024 5:07 pm
None of those are established other than Everton and they just about keep hanging on

edit: I'll add, I expect it to become far easier to be 'established' going forward given the gulf between the PL and the Championship, it's why this season has to go down as a massive missed opportunity for us

Hanging on the teams I've mentioned are around 46pts even if you give forest the 4 back that's 33pts you are talking over 10 points buffer that's not hanging on that's smashing it easy.

boatshed bill · Post by **boatshed bill** » Mon May 13, 2024 5:56 pm

I wish Sean Dyche and Mike Garlick had not had such obvious disagreements towards the end.
For me it devalued all the great work they had done together.
Some assert that it's ALK that have taken us down twice, but the first relegation was on the cards by the time they took over.

Steve-Harpers-perm · Post by **Steve-Harpers-perm** » Mon May 13, 2024 5:57 pm

Newcastleclaret93 wrote: ↑
Mon May 13, 2024 2:42 pm
Dyche/Garlick did wonders for the club.

ALK/Kompany Tbf have only taken us in one direction and it’s not forward.

I know you often struggle with facts and also anything remotely positive about the club you claim to support and spend most of your day posting about on here, but even you can’t forget the promotion last year.

Newcastleclaret93 · Post by **Newcastleclaret93** » Mon May 13, 2024 5:59 pm

Steve-Harpers-perm wrote: ↑
Mon May 13, 2024 5:57 pm
I know you often struggle with facts and also anything remotely positive about the club you claim to support and spend most of your day posting about on here, but even you can’t forget the promotion last year.

Promotion back into a league we were already in haha

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Mon May 13, 2024 5:59 pm

If we wasn't servicing debt loans & worked smarter in the transfer market there's nothing stopping us competing with the likes of brentford & Bournemouth.