this is an abc news special. in a week of unprecedented disruption, the wait is over. the person a president could rely on most takes center stage. mike pence. >> in this election, it's not so much whether america will be more conservative or more liberal, more republican or more democrat, the choice in this election is whether america remains america. >> kamala harris. >> the constant chaos leaves us adrift. the incompetence makes us feel afraid. the callousness makes us feel alone. and here's the thing. we can do better. >> the vice presidential debate, live from the university of utah in salt lake city. and abc news election

headquarters. now reporting, chief anchor george stephanopoulos. >> and welcome back to our special coverage of the race for the white house. tonight's vice presidential debate, now just moments away. that is the scene at the university of utah in salt lake city where vice president mike pence, senator kamala harris are going to take a stage retrofitted with plexiglass shields to protect against covid. everyone not on stage will be wearing a mask. the moderator, susan page, will direct nine ten-minute segments on topics of her choosing. no new rules have been put in place to keep things in order. our correspondents mary bruce and rachel scott are inside the hall and mary, the biden campaign insisted on these new covid protections. we can expect that senator harris is going to put mike pence's record as head of the coronavirus task force on the stand. we heard that from her chief of staff just moments ago. >> george, kamala harris's goal here tonight is to put mike pence, the head of the coronavirus task force, on defense. she is known for those fierce cross examinations, those feisty

exchanges during congressional hearings. and tonight, she's going to try to argue the case that this administration is failing the american people. in responding to this crisis. i'm told not to expect her to spend a lot of time fact-checking. aides say her aim is not to eviscerate mike pence, but to speak directly to the american people about how a biden/harris white house would be leading differently in this moment. this is a national stage like she has never been on before and tonight, she is going to be making history here. the first black woman, the first indian-american to ever debate for vice president. regardless of politics george, this is a huge moment for women, especially for young girls across this country. >> and we'll see how she plays on that tonight. rachel scott, let me bring you in, as well. mike pence has done this before, four years ago, against tim kaine. did pretty well four years ago. has a very different job tonight. >> the fact of the matter is, george, this is not 2016. and right now, the country is up against an unprecedented pandemic. and vice president mike pence is the head of the coronavirus task force. so, he will be put on defense

tonight. he will have to defend the administration's handling of this pandemic. i'm told that he will largely focus on recovery, talk about jobs, talk about the economy bouncing back, but the reality here is that 26 million americans are out of a job and he will be facing some tough questions on that front, george. >> right. and the president has gone back and forth on the stimulus, the economic relief package over the last 24 hours. that is the stage right there. moderator susan page will be speaking in just a few moments, outlining her goals for the debate. talking about the rules that she will be laying out, as well. everyone else in that hall wearing a mask tonight, unlike what we saw in cleveland last week. here's susan page. >> good evening. from the university of utah in salt lake city, welcome to the first and only vice presidential debate of 2020. sponsored by the nonpartisan commission on presidential debates. i'm susan page of "usa today." it is my honor to moderate this

debate, an important part of our democracy. in kingsbury hall tonight, we have a small and socially distant audience. and we have taken extra precautions during this pandemic. among other things, everyone in the audience is required to wear a face mask and the candidates will be seated 12 feet apart. the audience is enthusiastic about their candidates, but they've agreed to express that enthusiasm only twice, at the end of the debate, and now, when i introduce the candidates. please welcome california senator kamala harris and vice president mike pence. 123450 . >> thank you.

>> senator harris and vice president pence, thank you for being here. we're meeting at president trump and the first lady continue to undergo treatment in washington after testing positive for covid-19. we send our thoughts and prayers to them for their rapid and complete recovery and for the recovery of everyone afflicted by the coronavirus. the two campaigns and the commission on presidential debates have agreed to the ground rules for tonight. i'm here to enforce them, on behalf of the millions of americans who are watching. one note -- no one in either campaign or at the commission or anywhere else has been told in advance what topics i'll raise or what questions i'll ask. this 90-minute debate will be divided into nine segments of about ten minutes each. i'll begin a segment by posing a question to each of you, sometimes the same question, sometimes a different question on the same topic. you will then have two minutes

to answer without interruption by me or the other candidate. then we'll take six minutes or so to discuss the issue. at that point, though there will always be more to say, we'll move on to the next topic. we want a debate that is lively, but americans also deserve a discussion that is civil. these are tumultuous times, but we can and will have a respectful exchange about the big issues facing our nation. let's begin with the ongoing pandemic that has cost our country so much. senator harris, the coronavirus is not under control. over the past week, johns hopkins reports that 39 states have had more covid cases over the past seven days than in the week before. nine states have set new records. even if a vaccine is released soon, the next administration will face hard choices. what would a biden administration do in january and

february that a trump administration wouldn't do? would you impose new lockdowns for businesses and schools in hot spots? a federal mandate to wear masks? you have two minutes to respond without interruption. >> thank you, susan. well, the american people have witnessed what is the greatest failure of any presidential administration in the history of our country. and here are the facts. 210,000 dead people in our country in just the last several months. over 7 million people who have contracted this disease. 1 in 5 businesses closed. we're looking at front line workers who have been treated like sacrificial workers. we are looking at over 30 million people who in the last several months had to file for unemployment. and here's the thing. on january 28th, the vice president and the president were

informed about the nature of this pandemic, they were informed that it is lethal in consequence, that it is airborne, that it will affect young people and that it would be contracted because it is airborne. and they knew what was happening and they didn't tell you. can you imagine if you knew on january 28th as opposed to march 13th what they knew, what you might have done to prepare? they knew and they covered it up. the president said it was a hoax. they minimized the seriousness of it. the president said, you're on one side of his ledger if you wear a mask, you're on the other side of his ledger if you don't. and in spite of all of that, today, they still don't have a plan. they still don't have a plan. well, joe biden does. and our plan is about what we need to do around a national strategy for contact tracing,

for testing, for administration of the vaccine and making sure it will be free for all. that is the plan that jb oe bid and that i have, knowing that we have to get ahold of what has been going on and we need to save our country and joe biden is the best leader to do that and frankly, this administration has forfeited their right to re-election. based on this. >> thank you, senator harris. vice president pence, more than 210,000 americans have died of covid-19 since february. the u.s. death toll as a percentage of our pap lake is higher than that of almost every other wealthy nation on earth. for instance, our death rate is 2 1/2 times that of canada next door. you head the administration's coronavirus task force. why is the u.s. death toll as a percentage of our population higher than that of almost every other wealthy country and you have two minutes to respond without interruption. >> susan, thank you. and i want to thank the commission and the university of

utah for hosting this event and senator harris, it's a privilege to be on the stage with you. our nation has gone through a very challenging time this year. but i want the american people to know that from the very first day, president donald trump has put the health of america first. before there were more than five cases in the united states, all people who had returned from china, president donald trump did what no other american president had ever done, and that was, he suspended all travel from china, the second-largest economy in the world. now, senator, joe biden opposed that decision. he said it was sehysterical. i can tell you, having led the coronavirus task force that that decision bought us invaluable time to stand up the greatest national mobilization since world war ii and i believe it

saved hundreds of thousands of american lives, because with that time, we were able to reinvent testing, more than 115 million tests have been done to date. we were able to see to the delivery of billions of supports to doctors and nurses had the resources they needed and began, really before the month of february, started to develop a vaccine and to develop medicines and therapeutics that have been saving lives along the way. under president trump's leadership, operation warp speed, we believe we'll have tens of millions of doses of a vaccine before the end of this year. the reality is, when you look at the biden plan, it reads an awful lot like what president trump and i and our task force have been doing every step of the way. and quite frankly, when i look at their plan that talks about advancing testing, creating new ppe, developing a vaccine, it looks a little bit like plagiarism, which is something that joe biden knows a little bit about. and i think the american people know this is a president who has

put america first and the american people, i believe with my heart, can be proud of the sacrifices they have made. >> thank you, vice president. thank you vice president. senator harris, would you like to respond? >> absolutely. whatever the vice president is claiming the administration has do done, clearly, it hasn't worked. when you are looking at over 210,000 dead bodies in our country. american lives that have been lost, families that have grieving that loss. and, you know, the vice president is the head of the task force. and knew on january 28th how serious this was. and then, thanks to bob woodward, we learned that they knew about it and then when that was exposed, the vice president said, when asked, well, why didn't y'all tell anybody? he said because the president wanted people to remain calm. but susan, this is important, mr. vice president, i'm speaking. >> i have to weigh in. >> i'm speaking.

>> you have 15 more seconds and then we'll give the vice president a chance. >> thank you. i want to ask the american people, how calm are you when you were panicked about when you're going to get your next roll of toilet paper? how calm were you when your kids were sent home from school and you didn't know when they could go back? how calm were you when your children couldn't see your parents because you were afraid they could kill them? >> let's give vice president a pence to respond. you have one minute to respond. >> there's not a day gone by that i haven't thought of every american family that's lost a loved one. and i want all of you to know that you'll always be in our hearts and in our prayers. but when you see what the american people have done hasn't worked, that's a great disservice to the sacrifices the american people have made. >> i'm referring to the president. >> if i may finish. the reality, is dr. fauci said, everything that he told the president in the aefl offioval the president told the american people. president trump has boundless confidence in the american people and he always spoke with

confidence that we'd get through this together. when you say it hasn't worked, when dr. fauci and dr. birx and our medical experts came to us in the second week of march, they said, if the president didn't take the unprecedented step of shutting down roughly half of the american economy, that we could lose 2.2 million americans, that's the reality. >> thank you. thank you, vice president. >> they said to us, if we did everything right, susan, we could still lose more than 200,000 americans. one life lost is too much. >> thank you. >> but the american people, i believe, deserve credit for the sacrifices that they have made putting the health of their family and their neighbors first, our doctors, our nurses, our -- >> thank you, vice president pence. >> and i'm going to speak up on behalf of what the american people have done. >> vice president pence, you were in the front row in a rose garden event of what seems to have been a superspreader event. no social distancing. few masks. and now a cluster of coronavirus cases among those who were there.

how can you expect americans to follow the administration's safety guidelines to protect themselves from covid when you at the white house have not been doing so? >> well, the american people have demonstrated over the last eight months that when given the facts, they're willing to put the health of their families and their neighbors and people they don't even know first. the president and i have great confidence in the american people and their ability to take that information and put it into practice. in the height of the epidemic, when we were losing a heartbreaking number, 2,500 americans a day, we surged resources to new jersey and new york and new orleans and detroit, we told the american people what needed to be done and the american people made the sacrifices. when the outbreak in the sun belt happened this summer, again, americans stepped forward. but the reality is, the work of the president of the united states goes on. vacancy on the supreme court of

the united states has come upon us and the president introduced judge amy coney barrett. >> thank you, vice president pence. >> if i may say, that rose garden event, there's been a great deal of speculation about it. my wife karen and i were there and honored to be there. many of the people who were at that event, susan, actually were tested for coronavirus and it was an outdoor event, which all of our scientists regularly and routinely advise. the difference here is, president trump and i trust the american people to make choices in the best interest of their health. joe biden and kamala harris consistently talk about mandates and not just mandates with the coronavirus, but a government takeover of health care -- >> thank you, vice president. >> the green new deal, all government control. we're about freedom and respecting the freedom of the american people. >> let's talk about respecting the american people. you respect the american people when you tell them the truth. you respect the american people when you have the courage -- >> which we've always done. >> to be a leader, speaking of

those things that you may not want people to hear but they need to hear so they can protect themselves. but this administration stood on information that if you had as a parent, if you had as a worker, knowing you didn't have enough money saved up and now you are standing in a food line because of the ineptitude of an administration that was unwilling to speak the truth to the american people. so, let's talk about caring about the american people. the american people have had to sacrifice far too much because of the incompetence of this administration. it is asking too much of the people. >> susan, we talked about this -- >> it is asking too much of the people, that they would not be equipped with the information they need to help themselves to protect their parents and children. >> kamala harris, senator harris -- >> that's fine, i'm kamala. >> no, you're senator harris to me. for life to get back to normal, most of the people that can be vaccinated need to be vaccinated. but half of americans now say they wouldn't take a vaccine if

it was released now. if the trump administration approves a vaccine before or after the election, should americans take it and would you take it? >> if the public health professionals, if dr. fauci, if the doctors tell us that we should take it, i'll be the first in line to take it, absolutely. if donald trump tells us we should take it, i'm not taking it. >> vice president pence, there have been a lot of repercussions from this pandemic. in recent days, the president's diagnosis of covid-19 has underscored the importance of the job that you hold and that you are seeking. that's our second topic tonight, it's the role of the vice president. one of you will make history on january 20th. you will be the vice president to the oldest president the united states has ever had. donald trump will be 74 years old on inauguration day, joe biden will be 78 years old. that already has raised concerns among some voters, concerns that

have been sharpened by president trump's hospitalization in recent days. vice president pence, have you had a conversation or reached an agreement with president trump about safeguards or procedures when it comes to the issue of presidential disability? and if not, do you think you should? you have two minutes without interruption. >> well, susan, thank you. though i would like to go back. >> i think we need to move onto the issue. >> thank you, but i would like to go back. >> the reality is, we're going to have a vaccine, senator, in record time, in unheard of time, in less than a year. we have five companies in phase three clinical trials and we're right now producing tens of millions of doses. so the fact that you continue to undermine public confidence in a vaccine, if the vaccine emerges during the trump administration, i think is unconscionable. and senator, i just ask you, stop playing politics with

people's lives. the reality is that we will have a vaccine, we believe, before the end of this year and i will have the capacity to save countless american lives and your continuous undermining of confidence in a vaccine is ju just -- it's just unacceptable. and let me also say, you know, the reality is, when you talk about failure in this administration, we actually do know what failure looks like in a pandemic. it was 2009, the swine flu arrived in the united states. thankfully it was -- ended up not being as lethal as the coronavirus. but before the end of the year, when joe biden was vice president of the united states, not 7.5 million people contracted the swine flu, 60 million americans contracted the swine flu. if the swine flu had been as lethal as the coronavirus, in 2009, when joe biden was vice

president, we would have lost 2 million american lives. his own chief of staff would say last year that it was pure luck that they did, quote, everything possible wrong and we learned from that. they let the strategic stockpile empty, they left an empty and hollow plan. >> thank you, vice president pence. your time is up. >> i'm going to say again -- >> vice president pence, i'm sorry, your time is up. >> and senator, please -- >> thank you, vice president pence. >> senator harris, let me ask you the same question that i asked vice president pence, which is, have you had a conversation or reached an agreement with vice president biden about safeguards or procedures when it comes to the issue of presidential disability and if not, and if you win the election next month, do you think you should? you have two minutes uninterrupted. >> so, let me tell you, first of all, the day i got the call from joe biden, it was actually a

zoom call, asking me to serve with him on this ticket, was probably one of the most memorable days of my life. i, you know, i thought about my moth mother, who came to the united states at the age of 19, gave birth to me at the age of 25 at kaiser hospital in oakland, california, and the thought that i'd be sitting here right now, i know would make her proud, and she must be looking down on us. you know, joe and i were raised in a very similar way. we were raised with values that are about hard work, about the value and the dignity of public service and about the importance of fighting for the dig any of all people and i think joe asked me to serve with him because, you know, i have a career that included being elected the first woman district attorney of san francisco, where i created models of innovation for law enforcement in terms of the criminal justice system, i was elected the first woman of color

and black woman to be elected attorney general of the state of california, where i ran the second-largest department of justice in the united states, second only to the united states department of justice. and there i took on everything from transnational criminal organizations to the big banks that were taking advantage of homeowners to for profit colleges that were taking advantage of veterans. and of course now i serve in the united states senate as only the second black woman elected to the senate. i've been in regular receipt of classified information or threats to our nation, i've traveled the world, i've met with our soldiers in war zones and i think joe has asked me to serve with him because he knows that we share -- we share a purpose, which is about lifting up the american people and after the four years that we have seen of donald trump unifying our country around our common values and principles. >> thank you, senator harris.

neither president trump nor vice president biden has released a sort of detailed health information that had become the modern norm until the 2016 election. and in recent days, president trump's doctors have given misleading information about his basic health. and my question to each of you in turn is, this is information voters deserve to know? vice president pence, would you like to go first? >> well, susan, thank you. and let me say, on behalf of the president and the first lady, how moved we'll all been by the outpouring of prayers and concern afor the president and do believe it's emblematic of the concerns that have ushered forth for every american impact bid the coronavirus. but the care the president received at walter reed hospi l hospital, the white house doctors, was exceptional.

and the transparency they practiced will continue. the american people have a right to know about the health and well being of their president and we'll continue to do that. but i'm just extremely grateful and was more than -- more than a little moved by the broad and bipartisan support and senator, i want to thank you and joe biden for your expressions, genuine concern. and i also want to con grgratul you, as i did on that phone call on the historic nature of your nomination. >> thank you. >> i never expected to be on this stage four years ago, so i know the feeling. but the reality is, we've got an election before the american people in the midst of this challenging year, and the stakes have never been higher. >> thank you, vice president pence, i want to give senator harris a chance to respond to the same question i asked, which is, do voters have a right to know more detailed health information about presidential candidates and especially about presidents, especially when they

are facing some kind of challenge. >> absolutely. and that's why joe biden has been so incredibly transparent as certainly by contrast, the president has not. both in terms of health records, but also let's look at taxes. we now know because of great investigative journalism that donald trump paid $750 in taxes. when i first heard about it, i literally said, you mean $750,000? and it was like, no, $750. we now know donald trump owes and is in debt for $400 million and just so everyone is clear, when we say in death, it means you owe money to somebody. and it would be really good to know who the president of the united states, the commander in chief, owes money to, because the american people have a right to know what is influencing the president's decisions. and is he making those decisions on the best interest of the american people, of you or

self-interest? so, susan, i'm glad you asked about transparency, because it has to be across the board. joe has been incredibly transparent of many, many years. joe puts it all out there. he -- he is honest, he is forthright. but donald trump, on the other hand, has been about covering up everything. >> thank you, senator harris. i want to give you a chance to respond, vice president. >> look, i respect the fact that joe biden spent 47 years in public life, i respect your public service, as well. >> thank you. >> the american people have a president who is a businessman, a job creator, who has paid tens of millions of dollars in taxes. payroll taxes, property taxes, he'sen t tens of thousands of american jobs. the president said those public reports are not accurate and the president's also released literally stacks of financial disclosures the american people can review, just as the law

allows, but the distinction here is that joe biden, 47 years in public service, compared to president donald trump, who brought all of that experience four years ago -- >> thank you, vice president. >> and turned this economy around by cutting taxes, rolling back regulations. >> thank you, vice president pence. >> fighting for free and fair trade and all -- >> thank you, vice president pence. >> if joe biden and kamala harris -- >> you know, that's a good segue into our third topic, which is about the economy. this has been another aspect of life for americans, it's been so affected by this coronavirus. we have a jobs crisis brewing. on friday, we learned that the unemployment rate had declined to 7.9% in september, but the job growth had stalled and that was before the latest round of layoffs and fur lopes in the airline industry, disney and elsewhere. hundreds of thousands of discouraged workers have stopped looking for work. nearly 11 million jobs that existed at the beginning of the year haven't been replaced. those hardest hit include

latinos, blacks and women. senator harris, the biden/harris campaign has proposed new programs to boost the economy and you would pay for that new spending by raising $4 trillion in taxes on wealthy individuals and corporations. some economists warn that could curb entrepreneur ventures that create jobs. would raising taxes put the recovery at risk? and you have two minutes to answer, uninterrupted. >> thank you. on the issue of the economy, i think there couldn't be a more fundamental difference between donald trump and joe biden. joe biden believes you measure the health and the strength of america's economy based on the health and the strength of the american worker and the american family. on the other hand, you have donald trump who measures the strength of the economy based on how rich people are doing. which is why he passed a tax bill benefits the top 1% and the

biggest corporations of america, leading to a $2 trillion deficit that the american people are going to have to pay for. on day one, joe biden will repeal that tax bill. he'll get rid of it. and he'll do with the money is invest it in the american people. and through a plan that is about investing in infrastructure, something that donald trump said he would do, i remember hearing about infrastructure week, i don't think it ever happened, but joe biden will do that. he will invest in inf infrastructure, upgrading our roads and bridges and investing in clean energy and renewable energy. joe is going to invest that money in what we need to do around innovation. there was a time when our country believed in science and invested in research and development, so that we were an innovation leader on the globe. joe biden will use that money to invest in education. so, for example, for folks who want to go to a two-year community college, it will be free if you come from a family that makes less than $125,000.

you'll go to a public university for free. and across the board, we'll make sure that if you have student loan debt, it's cut by $10,000. that's how joe biden thinks about the economy, which it's about investing in the people of our country, as opposed to passing a tax bill which had the benefit of letting american corporations go offshore to do their business. >> thank you, senator harris. vice president pence, your administration has been predicting a rapid and robust recovery. but the latest economic report suggests that's not happening. should americans be braced for an economic comeback that is going to take not months, but a year or more? you have two minutes to answer, uninterrupted. >> when president trump and i took office, america had gone through the slowest economic recovery since the great depression. when joe biden was vice president, they tried to tax and spend and regulate and bail our way back to a growing economy. president trump cut taxes across the board. despite what senator harris

says, the average american family of four had $2,000 in savings in taxes. and with the rise in wages that occurred, most predominantly for blue collar, hard-working americans, the average household income for a family of four increased by $4,000, following president trump's tax cuts. but america, you just heard senator harris tell you, on day one, joe biden's going to raise your taxes. it's really remarkable to think. >> that's not what i said. >> right after, a time when we're going through a pandemic that lost 22 million jobs at the height, we've already added back 1 11.6 million jobs, because we had a president that rolled back regulation, unleashed american energy, fought for free and fair trade and secured $4 trillion from the congress of the united states to give direct payments to families. saved 50 million jobs through the paycheck protection program. we literally have spared no expense to help the american people and the american worker

through this. joe biden and kamala harris want to raise taxes, they want to bury our economy under a $2 trillion green new deal, which you were one of the original cosponsors of in the united states senate. they want to abolish fossil fuels and ban fracking, which would cost hundreds of thousands of american jobs all across the heartland. and joe biden wants to go back to the economic surrender to china that when we took office, half of our international trade deficit was with china alone and joe biden wants to repeal all of the tariffs that president trump put into effect to fight for american jobs and american workers. joe biden says democracy is on the ballot -- make no mistake about it, susan, the american economy, the american comeback is on the ballot with four more years of growth -- >> thank you, vice president. >> four more years of president donald trump, 2021 -- >> thank you, vice president pence. senator harris? >> well, i mean, we saw enough of it in last week's debate, but

i think this is supposed to be a debate based on fact and truth. and the truth and the fact is, joe biden has been very clear, he will not raise taxes on anybody that makes less than 400,000 -- >> he's going to repeal the trump tax cuts. >> mr. vice president, i'm speaking. >> you said the truth. joe biden said it twice in the debate last week that he's going to repeal the trump tax cuts. that was tax cuts that gave the average working family $2,000 in a tax break every single year. senator -- >> that is absolutely not true. that tax bill -- >> is he only going to repeat -- >> if you don't mind letting me finish, we can then have a conversation, okay? >> please. >> okay. joe biden will not raise taxes on anyone who makes less than $400,000 a year. he's been clear about that. joe biden will not end fracking, he's been clear about that. joe biden is the one who, during the great recession, was

responsible for the recovery act that brought america back and now the trump/pence administration wants to credit, when they rode the coat tails of joe biden's success. of course now the economy is a complete disaster, but joe biden on the one hand, did that. on the other hand, you have donald trump who has reigned over a recession that is being compared to the great depression. on the one hand, you have joe biden, who was responsible with president barack obama for the affordable care act, which brought health care to over 20 million americans and protected people with pre-existing conditions and what it also did is it saved those families who otherwise were going to bankrupt because of hospital bills they could not afford. on the other hand, you have donald trump, who is in court right now, trying to get rid of the affordable care act, which means that you will lose

protections if you have pre-existing conditions and i just -- this is very important, susan -- >> we need to give vice president -- >> he interrupted me and i would like to just finish, please. if you have a pre-existing condition, heart disease, diabetes, breast cancer, they're coming for you. if you love someone who has a pre-existing condition, they're coming for you. if you have under the age of 26 on your parents coverage, they're coming for you. >> senator harris, thank you. >> you're welcome. >> let me give you a chance to respond. >> i hope we have a chance to talk about health care, because obamacare was a disaster, the american people remember it well. president trump and i have a plan to improve health care and to protect pre-existing conditions for every american. but look, senator harris, you are entitled to your own opinion, but you're not entitled to your own facts. you said on multiple occasions when you were running for president that you would ban fracking.

joe biden looked a supporter in the eye and pointed and said, i guarantee -- i guarantee that we will abolish fossil fuels. they have a $2 trillion version of the green new deal that susan, your newspaper, said really wasn't that very different from the original green new deal. more taxes, more regulation, banning fracking, abolishing fossil fuel, crushing american energy and economic surrender to china is a prescription for economic decline. president trump and i will keep america growing. the v-shaped recovery that's under way right now will continue with four more years of president donald trump. >> thank you very much, vice president pence. once again, you provided the perfect segue to a new topic, which is climate change. and vice president pence, i'd like to pose the first question to you. this year, we've seen record-setting hurricanes in the south. another one, hurricane delta, is now threatening the gulf. and we have seen record-setting wildfires in the west.

do you believe, as the scientific community has concluded, that manmade climate change has made wildfires bigger, hotter and more deadly and have made hurricanes wetter, slower and more damaging? you have two minutes, uninterrupted. >> thank you, susan. well, first, i'm very proud on our environment and on conservation. according to all of the best estimates, our air and land are cleaner than any time ever recorded. our water is among the cleanest in the world. and just a little while ago, the president signed the outdoors act, the largest investment in our public lands and public parks in 100 years. so, president trump has made a commitment to conservation and to the environment. now, with regard to climate change, the climate is changing, but the issue is, what's the cause and what do we do about it? president trump has made it clear that we're going to continue to listen to the science. now, joe biden and kamala harris

would put us back in the paris climate accord. they'd impose the green new deal, which would crush american energy, would increase the energy costs of american families in hair homes and literally would crush american jobs. president trump and i believe that the progress that we have made in a cleaner environment has been happening precisely because we have a strong, free market economy. you know, what's remarkable is, the united states has reduced co2 more than the countries that are still in the paris climate accord, but we've done it through innovation. and we've done it through natural gas and fracking, which, senator, the american people can go look at the record, i know joe biden says otherwise now, as you do, but the both of you repeatedly committed to abolishing fossil fuel and banning fracking. >> not true. >> by creating american

innovation, we are steering towards a stronger and better environment. with regard to wildfires, president trump and i believe that forest management has to be front and center and even governor gavin newsom from your state has agreed, we've got to work on forest management. and with regard to hurricanes, the national oceanic administration tells us, as difficult as they are, there are no more hurricanes today than there were 10 0 years ago. >> thank you, vice president. >> but many of the -- >> vice president pence, your time is up. thank you, vice president pence. >> and president trump and i are going to put american jobs and workers first. >> senator harris, as the vice president mentioned, you cosponsored the green new deal in congress. but vice president biden said in last week's debate that he does not support the green new deal, but if you look at the bid biden/harris campaign website, it describes the green new deal as a crucial framework. what exactly would be the stance of a biden/harris administration

toward the green new deal? you have two minutes uninterrupted. >> all right, so, first of all, i will repeat, and the american people know, that joe biden will not ban fracking. that is a fact. that is a fact. i will repeat that joe biden has been very clear that he thinks about growing jobs, which is why he will not increase taxes for anyone who makes less than $400,000 a year. joe biden's economic plan, moody's, which is a rep pewabut wall street firm, will create 7 million more jobs than donald trump. and part of those jobs that will be created by joe biden are going to be about clean energy and renewable energy. because you see, joe understands that the west coast of our country is burning, including my home state of california. josie e sees what is happening

the gulf states, which is being battered by storms. joe's statalked to the farmers iowa, whose crops have been destroyed by floods. susan, i served, when i first got to the senate, on the committee that's responsible for the environment, do you know this administration took the word science off the website? and then took the phrase climate change off the website? this -- we have seen a pattern with this administration, which is, they don't believe in science. and joe's plan is about saying, we're going to deal with it, but we're also going to create jobs. donald trump, when asked about the wildfires in california, and the question was, you know, the science is telling us, you know what donald trump said? science doesn't know. so, let's talk about who is prepared to lead our country over the course of the next four years on what is an existential threat to us as human becomes. joet joe is saying, it's going to be

about the creation of millions of jobs. we will achieve zero emissions by 2050, carbon neutral by 2035. joe has a plan. a lot of talk by the trump administration has been to go back toward instead of forward. we will re-enter the climate accord with pride. >> vice president pence, do you believe climate change poses and existential threat? >> as i said, susan, the climate is changing. we'll follow the science. but once again, senator harris is denying the fact that they're going to raise taxes on every american. joe biden said twice in the debate last week that on day one, he was going to repeal the trump tax cuts. those tax cuts delivered $2,000 in tax relief to the average family of four across america. and with regard to banning

fracking, look at the record. you said repeatedly that you would ban fracking. you were the first senate cosponsor of the green new deal. while joe biden denied the green new deal, thank you for pointing out it's on their website, and "usa today" said it's essentially the same plan that you cosponsored with aoc. and you just heard the senator say she's going to resubmit to the paris climate accord. look, the american people have always cherished our environment. we'll continue to cherish it. we've made great progress reducing co2 emissions through american innovation and the development of natural gas through fracking. we don't need a massive $2 trillion green new deal that would impose all new mandates on american businesses and american families. >> thank you. >> joe biden wants us to retrofit 4 million american business buildings. it makes no sense. >> it will cost jobs. president trump -- >> thank you, vice president.

>> put america first. he's going to put jobs first and we're going to take care of our environment and follow the science. >> on the issue of jobs -- >> senator harris. >> let's talk about that. the vice president earlier referred to it as part of -- what he thinks is an accomplishment, that the president's trade war with china. you lost that trade war. you lost it. what ended up happening is because of a so-called trade war with china, america lost 300,000 manufacturing jobs. farmers have experienced bankruptcy because of it. we are in a manufacturing recession because of it. and when we look at where this administration has been, there are estimates that by the end of the term of this administration, they will have lost more jobs than almost any other presidential administration and the american people know what i'm talking about. you know -- i think about

20-year-olds, you know, we have a 20-year-old, 20 something-year-old, who are coming out of high school and college right now, and you wonder, is there going to be a job there for me? we're looking at people who are trying to figure out how they're going to pay rent by the end of the month, almost half of american renters are worried about whether they're going to be able to pay rent by the end of the month. this is where the economy is in america right now and it is because of the catastrophe and the failure of leadership of this administration. >> thank you, senator harris. vice president pence, let me give you just 15 seconds to respond. >> i would love to respond. look, lost the trade war with china? joe biden never fought it. joe biden has been a cheerleader for communist china over the last several decades and again, senator harris, you are entitled to your opinion, you're not entitled to your own facts. when joe biden was vice president, we lost 200,000

manufacturing jobs and president obama said they were never coming back, he said we needed a magic wand to bring them back. in our first three years after we cut taxes, rolled back regulation, unleashed american energy, this administration saw 500,000 manufacturing jobs created. >> thank you, vice president pence. >> that's the kind of growth we're going to continue to see as we bring our nation through this pandemic. >> thank you, vice president pence. >> it's going to kill jobs this time just like it killed jobs -- >> i just need to response very briefly. >> 15 seconds and we'll move on. >> thank you, thank you. joe biden is responsible for saving america's auto industry and you voted against it. so let's set the record straight. thank you. >> i'd like to talk about china. we have, as our next topic, we have no more complicated or consequential foreign relationship than the one with china. it is a huge market for american agricultural goods, it's a potential partner in dealing

with climate change and north korea. and president trump blamed china once again for the coronavirus, saying they will pay. vice president pence, how could you describe our relationship with china? competitors, adversaries, enemi enemies? you have two minutes. >> before i leave that, let me speak to voting records, if i can. you know, everybody knows that nafta cost literally thousands of american factories to close. we saw automotive jobs go south of the border. president trump fought to renegotiate nafta and the united states/mexico/canada agreement is the law of the land. american people deserve to know that senator harris was one of only ten members of the senate to vote against the usmca. it was a huge win for american auto workers. it was a huge win for american farmers, especially dairy in the upper midwest. but senator, you said it didn't go far enough on climate change,

that you put your radical environmental agenda ahead of american auto workers and ahead of american jobs. i think the american people deserve to know that. it's probably why "newsweek" magazine said that kamala harris was the most liberal member of the united states senate in 2019. more liberal lly bernie sanders more liberal than any of the others in the united states senate. so, now, with regard to china, susan, first and foremost, china is to blame for the coronavirus. and president trump is not happy about it. he's made that very clear. made it clear again today. china and the world health organization did not play straight with the american people. they did not let our personnel into dhi thchina to get informan the coronavirus until the middle of february. fortunately, president trump in dealing with china from the outset of this administration, standing up to china that had

been taking advantage of america for decades in the wake of joe biden's cheerleading for china, president trump made that decision before the end of january to suspend all travel from china. and again, the american people deserve to know, joe biden opposed president trump's decision to suspend all travel from china. he said it was hysterical. >> thank you, vice president pence. your time is up. >> we're going to continue to stand strong. >> thank you, vice president pence. >> we want to improve the relationship, but we're going to level the playing field and going to hold china accountable for what they did to america with the coronavirus. >> thank you. senator harris, let me ask you the same question that i asked the vice president. how would you describe our fundamental relationship with china? are we competitors, adversaries, enemies? you'll have two minutes, uninterrupted. >> susan, the trump administration's approach to china has resulted in the loss of american lives, american jobs

and america's standing. there is a weird obsession that president trump has had with getting rid of whatever accomplishment was achieved by president obama and vice president biden. for example, they created, within the white house, an office that basically was responsible for monitoring pandemics. they got -- they got rid of it. >> not true. >> there was a team of disease experts that president obama and vice president biden dispatched to china to monitor what is now predictable and what might happen. they pulled them out. we now are looking at 210,000 americans who have lost their lives. let's look at the job situation. we mentioned before, the trade deal, the trade war, they wanted

to call it, with china. it resulted in the loss of over 300 manufacturing jobs and a manufacturing recession and the american consumer paying thousands of dollars more for goods because of that failed war that they called it. and let's talk about standing. pew, a reputable research firm, has done an analysis that showed that leaders of all of our formerly allied countries decided they hold in greater esteem and respect, xi jinping, the head of the chinese communist party, than they do donald trump, the president of the united states, the commander in chief of the united states. this is where we are today, because of a failure of leadership by this administrati administration. >> senator harris, we've seen changes in the -- in the role of the united states in terms of global leadership over the past four years.

and, of course, times do change. what's your definition -- we've seen strains with china, of course, as the vice president mentioned, we've seen strains with our traditional allies in nato and elsewhere. what is your definition of the role of american leadership in 2020? >> so, you know, joe, i love talking to joe about a lot of these issues. and joe, i think he said it quite well, he said, you know, foreign policy, it might sound complicated, but it's just relationships, just think about it like relationships. so, we know this in our personal and professional relationships. you have to keep your word to your friends. you got to be loyal to your friends, people who have stood with you, got to stand with them. you got to know who your adversaries are and keep them in check. but what we have seen with donald trump is that he has betrayed our friends and embraced dictators around the world.

let's take, for example, russia. so, i serve on the intelligence committee of the united states senate. america's intelligence community told us, russia interfered in the election of the president of the united states in 2016 and is playing in 2020. christopher wray, the director of the fbi, said the same. but donald trump, the commander in chief of the united states of america, prefers to take the word of vladimir putin over the word of the american intelligence community. you look at our friends at nato. he has walked away from agreements. you can -- look at the iran nuclear deal, which now has put us in a position where we are less safe because they are building up what might end up being a significant nuclear arsenal. we were in that deal, guys, we were in the iran nuclear deal, with friends, with allies around the country and because of donald trump's unilateral

approach to foreign policy, coupled with his isolationism, he pulled us out and has made america less safe. so, susan, it's about relationships. and the thing that has always been part of the strength of our nation, in addition to our great military, has been that we keep our word, but donald trump doesn't understand that, because he doesn't understand what it means to be honest. >> thank you, senator harris. vice president pence, let me give you a chance to respond. >> well, thank you. well, president trump kept his word when we moved the american embassy to jerusalem, the capital of the state of israel. when joe biden was vice president, they promised to do that and never did. we stood strong with our allies, but we've been tdemanding. nato is contributing more than ever before thanks to president trump's leadership. we've strengthened our alliances across the asia-pacific. and we've stood strong against those who would do us harm. you know, when president trump came into office, isis had

captured an area of the middle east the size of pennsylvania. president trump unleashed the american military and our armed forces destroyed the isis caliphate and took down their leader without one american casualty. al baghdadi was responsible for the death of thousands. notably, america's hearts today are with the family of kayla mueller, the parents of which are here with us tonight in salt lake city. today, two of the isis killers responsible for kayla mueller's murder were brought to justice in the united states. > jihadi john was killed on the battlefield, along with the others. we had an opportunity to save kayla mueller when joe biden was in the office. the military came into the oval office, presented a plan. they said they knew where kayla

was. baghdadi had held her for 18 months, abused her mercilessly before they killed her. but when joe biden was vice president, they hesitated for a month and when armed forces finally went in, it was clear she had been moved two days earlier and her family says with a heart that broke the heart of every american that if president donald trump had been president, they believe kayla would be alive today. >> thank you, vice president. >> we destroyed the isis caliphate and you talk about re-entering the iran nuclear deal, the last administration transferred $1.8 billion to the leading state sponsor -- >> thank you, vice president pence. >> president donald trump got us out of the deal. >> thank you, vice president pence. >> when seoul manny was traveling to baghdad to do harm to americans, president donald trump took him out. >> thank you, vice president pence. >> and america is safer, our allies are safer and the american people know president donald trump will never -- >> thank you, vice president pence. i would like to give senator

harris a chance to respond, but not at such great length. >> i would like equal time. >> yes. >> thank you. >> please go ahead. >> first of all, to the mueller family, i know about your daughter's case and i am so sorry. i am so sorry. what happened to her is awful and it should have never happened. and i know joe feels the same way. and i know that president obama feels the same way. but you mentioned soleimani. let's start there. so, after the strike on soleimani, there was a counter strike on our troops in iraq. and they suffered serious brain injuries and do you know what donald trump dismissed them as? headaches. and this is about a pattern of donald trump's, where he has referred to our men who are

serving in our military as suckers and losers, donald trump, who went to arlington cemetery and stood above the graves of our fallen heroes and said, what's in it for them? because, of course, you know, he only thinks about what's in it for him. let's talk what he said about john mccain, a great american hero. and donald trump says, he doesn't deserve to be called a hero, because he was a prisoner of war. take -- and this is very important. when you want to talk about who is the current commander in chief and what they care about what they don't care about, public reporting that russia had bounties on the heads of american soldiers and you know what a bounty is? it's somebody punts a price on your head and they will pay it

if you are killed and donald trump had talked at least six times to vladimir putin and never brought up the subject. joe biden would never do that. >> thank you. >> joe biden would -- joe biden would hold russia to account for any threat to our nation's security or to our troops who are sacrificing their lives for the sake of our democracy and our safety. >> senator harris, this is so important, but we have other important issues, as well. i want to make sure we have -- >> i really have to respond to that. look. she has -- >> 15 seconds, because. >> i have to have more than that. >> i'm sorry, vice president pence, you've had more time than she's had so far -- >> the slanders against president donald trump regarding men and women of our armed forces are absurd. >> i'm sorry, vice president pence -- >> my son is a cap nan tain uni states marine corps. my son-in-law is deployed in the united states navy. i can assure all of you with

sons and daughters serving in our military, president donald trump not only respects but reveres all of those who serve in our armed forces and any suggestion otherwise is ridiculous. >> thank you, vice president pence. vice president pence -- >> i did not -- >> i did not create the rules for tonight. your campaigns agreed to the rules for tonight's debate, with the commission on presidential debates. i'm here to enforce them, which involves moving from one topic to another, giving roughly equal time to both of you, which is what i'm trying very hard to do. >> go right ahead. >> i want to go ahead and move to the next topic, which is an important one, as the last topic was, and that is the supreme court. on monday, the senate judiciary committee is scheduled to open hearings on amy coney barrett's nomination to the supreme court. senator harris, you'll be there as a member of the committee. her confirmation would cement the court's conservative majority and make it likely to more abortion restrictions, even

to overturning the landmark roe v. wade learning. access to abortion would then be up to the states. vice president pence, you're the former government nor of i eer . if roe v. wade is overturned, what would you want indiana to do? would you want your home state to ban all abortions? you have two minutes, uninterrupted. >> well, thank you for the question, but i'll use my time to respond to that very important issue before. the american people deserve to know, soleimani, the iranian general, was responsible for the death of hundreds of american service members. when the opportunity came, we saw him headed to baghdad to kill more americans, president trump didn't hesitate and soleimani is gone. but you deserve to know that joe biden and kamala harris actually criticized the decision to take out soleimani. it is really inexplicable, but with regard to joe biden, it is explainable, because history

records that joe biden actually opposed the raid against osama bin laden. it's absolutely essential that we have a commander in chief who will not hesitate to act to protect american lives and to protect american service members and that's what you have in president donald trump. now, with regard to the supreme court of the united states, let me say president trump and i could not be more enthusiastic about the opportunity to see judge amy coney barrett become justice amy coney barrett. she's a brilliant woman and she will bring a lifetime of experience and a sizable american family, to the supreme court of the united states. and our hope is, in the hearing next week, unlike justice kavanaugh received with treatment for you and others, that we hope she gets a fair hearing. and we particularly hope that we don't see the kind of attacks on her christian faith that we saw before. the democrat chairman of the judiciary committee before, when judge barrett was being

confirmed for the court of appeals, expressed concern that the dogma of her faith lived loudly in her. dick durbin of illinois said it was a concern. senator, i know one of our judicial nominees, you actually attacked because they were a member of the catholic knights of columbus, just because the knights of columbus holds pro life views -- >> thank you, vice president pence. your time is up. >> my hope is when the hearing takes place -- >> thank you, vice president pence. >> that judge amy coney barrett will be respected. >> thank you, vice president pence. senator harris, you are the senator from and former attorney general of california. let me ask you a parallel well. if roe v. wade is overturned, what would you want california to do, would you want your home state to enact no restrictions on access to abortion? and you have two minutes, uninterrupted. >> susan, thank you. first of all, joe biden and i are both people of faith. and it is insulting to suggest

that we would knock anyone for their faith and, in fact, joe, if elected, will be only the second practicing catholic as president of the united states. on the issue of this nomination, joe and i are very clear, as are the majority of the american people. we are 27 days before the decision about who will be the next president of the united states. and, you know, before, when this conversation has come up, you know, it's been about election year or election time -- we're literally in an election. over 4 million people have vo d voted. people are in the process of voting right now. and so joe has been very clear, as the american people are, let the american people fill that seat in the white house and then we'll fill that seat on the united states supreme court. and to your point, susan, the issues before us couldn't be more serious. there's the issue of choice and

i will always fight for a woman's right to make a decision about her own body, it should be her decision and not that of donald trump and the vice president, michael pence. but let's look at what else is before the court. it's the affordable care act. literally in the midst of a public health pandemic, when over 210,000 people have died and 7 million people probably have what will be in the future considered a pre-existing condition because you contracted the virus, donald trump is in court right now trying to get rid of the affordable care act. and i said it before and it bears repeating, this means that there will be no more protection, if they win, for people with pre-existing conditions. this means that over 20 million people will lose your coverage. it means that if you are under the age of 26, you can't stay on your parents coverage anymore. and here's the thing.

the contrast couldn't be more clear. they're trying to get rid of the affordable care act, joe biden is saying let's expand coverage, let's give you a choice of a public option or private coverage. let's bring down premiums, let's lower medicare eligibility to 60. that's true leadership. >> thank you, senator harris. you mentioned earlier, vice president pence, that the president was committed to maintaining protections for people with pre-existing conditions. but you do have this court case that you are supporting, your administration supporting, that would strike down the affordable care act. the president says, president trump says that he's going to protect people with pre-existing conditions, but he has not explained how he would do that. and that was one of the toughest nuts to crack when they were passing the affordable care act. so, tell us specifically, how would your administration protect americans with pre-existing conditions to have access to affordable insurance, if the affordable care act is struck down? >> well, thank you, susan, but let me just say, addressing your

very first question, i couldn't be more proud to serve as vice president to a president who stands without apology for the sanctity of human life. i'm pro life, i don't apologize for it. and this is another one of those cases where there's such a dramatic contrast. joe biden and kamala harris support taxpayer funding of abortion all the way up to the moment of birth. late term abortion. they want to increase funding to planned parenthood of america. now, for our part, i would never presume how judge amy coney barrett would rule on the supreme court of the united states, but we'll continue to stand strong for the right to life. when you speak about the supreme court, though, i think the american people really deserve an answer, senator harris. are you and joe biden going to pack the court if judge amy coney barrett is confirmed? there have been 29 vacancies on the supreme court during presidential election years from george washington to barack obama, presidents have nominated

in all 29 cases. but your party is actually openly advocating adding seats to the supreme court, which has had nine seats for 150 years, if you don't get your way. this is a classic case of, if you can't win by the rules, you are going to change the rules. now, you have refused to answer the question, joe biden has refused to answer if question. so, i think the american people would really like to know if judge amy coney barrett is confirmed to the supreme court of the united states, are you and joe biden, if somehow you win this election, going to pack the supreme court to get your way? >> i'm so glad we went through a little history lesson. let's do that a little more. in 1864 -- >> i'd like you to answer the question. >> i'm speaking. i'm speaking, okay? in 1864, one of the, i think political heroes, certainly of the president, i assume of you, also, mr. vice president, is abraham lincoln. abraham lincoln was up for re-election and it was 27 days

before the election and a seat became open on the united states supreme court. abraham lincoln's party was in charge, not only of the white house, but the senate. but honest abe said, not the right thing to do. the american people deserve to make the decision about who will be the next president of the united states and then that person can select who will serve for a lifetime on the highest court of our land. and so joe and i are very clear. the american people are voting right now. and it should be their decision about who will serve on this most important body for a lifetime. >> thank you, senator harris. >> the people are voting right now. they would like to know if you and joe biden are going to pack the supreme court if you don't get your way in this nomination. >> let's talk about packing. >> it's a nonanswer. joe biden -- >> i'm trying to answer you now.

>> the american people deserve a straight answer. if you haven't figured it out, they are going to pack the supreme court. if they somehow win this election. >> mr. vice president -- >> people across this country, if you cherish our supreme court, the separation of powers, you need to reject the biden/harris ticket come november 3rd, re-elect president donald trump and we'll stand by that separation of powers in a nine-seat supreme court. >> let's talk about packing the court then. let's talk about the fact -- >> please. >> i'm about to. so the trump/pence administration has been, because i sit on the senate judiciary committee, susan, as you mentioned, and i witnessed the appointments for lifetime appointments to the federal courts, district courts, courts of appeal. people who are purely ideological, people who have been reviewed by legal professional organizations and found to have been not competent, substandard. and do you know that of the 50 people who president trump

appointed to the court of appeals for lifetime appointments, not one is black? this is what they've been doing. you want to talk about packing a court? let's have that discussion. >> thank you, senator. let's go on and talk about the issue of racial justice. >> i just want the record to reflect she never answered the question. the american people -- maybe the next debate, joe biden will answer the question, but i think the american people know the answer. >> thank you, vice president. in march, breonna taylor, a 26-year-old emergency room technician in louisville was shot and killed after police officers executing a search warrant on a narcotics investigation broke into her apartment. the police said they identified themselves. taylor's boyfriend said he didn't hear them do that. he used a gun registered to him to fire a shot which wounded an officer. the officers then fired more than 20 rounds into the apartment. they say they were acting in self-defense. none of them have been indicted in connection with her death.

senator harris, in the case of breonna taylor, was justice done? you have two minutes. >> i don't believe so and i've talked with her mother, tamika palmer and her family and her family deserves justice. she was a beautiful young woman. she had, as her life goal, to become a nurse and she wanted to become an emt to first learn what's going on out on the street so she could become a nurse and save lives. and her life was taken. unjustifiably and tragically and violently. and it just -- it brings me to, you know, the eight minutes and 46 seconds that america witnessed during which an american man was tortured and killed under the knee of an armed uniformed police officer. and people around our country of

every race, of every age, of every gender, perfect strangers to each other, marched, shoulder to shoulder, arm and arm, fighting for us to finally achieve that ideal of equal justice under law. and i was aport of those peaceful protests. and and i believe strongly that, first of all, we are never going to condone violence, but we always must fight for the values that we hold dear, including the fight to achieve our ideal. and that's why joe biden and i have said, on this subject, look, and i'm -- i'm a former career prosecutor, i know what i'm talking about. bad cops are bad for good cops. we need reform of our policing in america and our criminal justice system, which is why joe and i will immediately ban chokeholds. george floyd would be alive today if we did that.

we will require a national registry for police officers who break the law. we will, on the issue of criminal justice reform, get rid of private prisons and cash bail and we will decriminalize marijuana and we will expunge the records of those who have convicted of marijuana. this is a time for leadership on a tragic, tragic issue of unarmed black people in america. >> thank you, senator harris. vice president pence, let me pose the same question to you. in the case of breonna taylor, was justice done? you have two minutes uninterrupted. >> well, our heart breaks for the loss of innocent -- any innocent american life and the family of breonna taylor has our sympathies. but i trust our justice system. a grand jury that refused the evidence. and it really is remarkable that as a former prosecutor, you

would assume that an enpaneled grand jury looking at all the evidence got it wrong, but you're entitled to your opinion, senator. i think -- and with regard to george floyd, there's no excuse for what happened to george floyd. justice will be served. but there's also no excuse for the rioting and looting that followed. i mean, it really is astonishing. flora westbrook is here with us tonight in salt lake city. just a few weeks ago, i stood at what used to be her salon, was burned to the ground by rioters and looters. and flora is still trying to put her life back together. and i must tell you, this -- this presumption that you hear consistently from joe biden and kamala harris that america's systemically racist and that as joe biden said, that he believes that law enforcement has an

implicit bias against minorities, is a great insult to the men and women who serve in law enforcement and i want everyone to know who puts on the uniform of law enforcement every day that president trump and i stand with you. and it is remarkable that when senator tim scott tried to pass a police reform bill, brought together a group of republicans and democrats, senator harris, you got up and walked out of the room. and then you filly buibustered scott's bill on the senate floor that would have provided resources. we don't have to choose between supporting law enforcement, improving public safety and supporting our african-american neighbors and all of our minorities. under president trump's leadership, we will always stand with law enforcement and do what we want and that is improve the lives of african-americans. >> thank you, vice president pence.

your time is up. >> i'd like to respond. >> senator harris? >> i will not sit here and be lectured by the vice president on what it means to enforce the laws of our country. i am the only one on this stage who has personally prosecuted everything from child sexual assault to homicide. i am the only one on this stage who has prosecuted the big banks for taking advantage of america's homeowners. i am the only one on this stage that prosecuted for profit colleges for taking advantage of our veterans. and the reality of this is, that we are talking about an election in 27 days where last week, the president of the united states took a debate stage in front of 70 million americans and refused to condemn white supremacists. >> not true. >> and -- >> not true. >> and it wasn't like he didn't have a chance. he didn't do it and then he doubled down. and then he said, when pressed,

stand back, stand by. and this is a part of a pattern of donald trump's. he called mexicans rapists and criminals. he instituted as his first act a muslim ban. he, on the issue of charlottesville, were people were peacefully protesting the need for racial justice, where a young woman was killed and on the other side, there were neo-nazis carrying tiki torches, shouting racial epithets, ant anti-semitic slurs, and donald trump, when asked about it, said, there were fine people on both sides. this is who we have as the president of the united states and america, you deserve better. joe biden will be a president who brings our country together. >> nor hasenator harris. >> and recognizes the beauty in our diversity and the fact we

have so much more in common than what separates us. >> vice president, let me give you a minute to respond. >> susan, thank you. appreciate that very much. you know, i think this is one of the things that makes people dislike the media so much in this country, susan. is that you selectively edit just like senator harris did, comments that president trump and i and others on our side of the aisle make. i mean, senator harris omitted after the president made comments on either side on the debate over monuments, he condemned the kkk, neo-nazis and has done so repeatedly. your concern that he doesn't condemn neo-nazis, president trump has jewish grand children, his daughter and son-in-law are jewish. this is a president who respects and cherishes all of the american people. but you talk about having personally prosecuted, i'm glad you brought up your record, senator. >> thank you. >> i really need to make this

point. when you were d.a. in san francisco, when you left off office, african-americans were 19 times more likely to be prosecuted for minor drug offenses than whites and h hispan hispanics. >> thank you vice president. >> you increased the disp disproimportance nate incarceration of blacks. you did nothing on criminal justice reform in california. you didn't lift a finger to pass the first step act on capitol hill. i mean, the reality is, your record speaks for itself. president trump and i have fought for criminal justice reform. >> thank you, vice president pence. >> we fought for educational choice and opportunities for african-americans, all of our -- >> thank you, sir. thank you. you know, there is no more important issue than the final issue that we're going to talk about tonight, and that is the issue of the election. >> but susan, he attacked my record. i would like an opportunity to respond. >> 30 seconds, because we are running out of time. >> i appreciate that. first of all, having served as

the attorney general of the state of california, the work that i did is a model of what our nation needs to do and we will be able to do under a joe biden presidency. our agenda includes what this administration has failed to do. it will be about not only instituting a ban on chokeholds, not only -- >> thank you, senator harris. >> these are points that made earlier in the hour and i want to talk about the election itself before we have to go. >> but i want to talk about the connection between what joe and i will do and my record. which includes, i was the first statewide officer to institute a requirement that my agents would wear body cameras and keep them on full time. we were the first to initiate a requirement that there would be a training for law enforcement own implicit bias, because joe biden and i recognize that implicit bias does exist, mr. vice president, contrary to what you may believe. we did the work of instituting

reforms that were about investing in re-entry. this is the work that we have done and the work we will do going forward and again, i will not be lectured by the vice president on our record of what we have done in terms of law enforcement and keeping our communities safe and a commitment to reforming the criminal justice system of america. >> thank you, senator harris. i'd like to pose the first -- i would like you to respond first to the question on our final topic, the election itself. president trump has several times refused to commit himself to a peaceful transfer of power after the election. if your ticket wins and president trump refuses to accept a peaceful transfer of power, what steps would you and vice president biden then take? what would happen next? you have two minutes. >> so, i'll tell you, joe and i are particularly proud of the coalition that we've built around our campaign. we probably have one of the broadest coalition of votes that

you've ever seen in a presidential race. of course, we have the is suppo of democrats, independents and republicans. in fact, seven members of president george w. bush's cabinet are supporting our ticket. we have the support of colin powell, cindy mccain, john kasich. over 500 generals, retired generals and former national security experts and advisers are supporting our campaign. and i believe they are doing that because they know that joe biden has a deep, deep seeded commitment to fight for our democracy. and to fight for the intelrity of our democracy and to bring integrity back to the white house. and so, we believe in the american people, we believe in our democracy and here's what i'd like to say to everybody. vote. please vote. vote early, come up with a plan to vote, go to i will vote.com. you can also go to joe

biden.com. we have it within our power in these next 27 days to make the decision about what will be the course of our country for the next four years. and it is within our power and if we use our vote and we use our voice, we will win and we will not let anyone subvert our democracy with what donald trump has been doing as he did on the debate stage last week, when, again, in front of 70 million people, he openly attempted to suppress the vote. joe biden, on the other hand, on that same debate stage, because clearly donald trump doesn't think he can run on a record, because it's a failed record, joe biden on that stage said, hey, just please vote. so, i'll repeat what joe said. please vote. >> thank you, senator. vice president pence, president trump has several times refused to commit himself to a peaceful transfer of power after the election. if vice president biden is declared the winner and president trump refuses to

accept a peaceful transfer of power, what would be your role and responsibility as vice president? what would you personally do? you have two minutes. >> well, susan, first and foremost, i think we're going to win this election. because while joe biden and kamala harris rattle off a long litany of the establishment in washington, d.c. and establishment that joe biden's been apart of for 47 years, president donald trump has launched a movement of every day americans from every walk of life. and i have ever confidence that the same americans that delivered that historic victory in 2016, they see this president's record, where we rebuild our military, we revived our economy through tax cuts and romming back regulation, fighting for fair trade, unleashing american energy. we appointed conservatives to our federal courts at every level. and we stood with the men and women of law enforcement every single day. and i think that movement of americans has only grown stronger in the last four years.

when you talk about accepting the outcome of the election, i must tell you, senator, your party has spent the last 3 1/2 years trying to overturn the results of the last election. it's amazing. when joe biden was vice president of the united states, the fbi actually spied on president trump and my campaign. i mean, there were documents released this week that the cia made a referral to the fbi documenting that those allegations were coming from the hillary clinton campaign and of course, we've all seen the avalanche, what you put the country through for the better part of three years, until it was found that there was no obstruction, no collusion, case closed. and then senator harris, you and your colleagues in the congress tried to impeach the president of the united states over a phone call. and now hillary clinton is actually said to joe biden that under, in her words, under no

circumstances should he concede the election. so, let me just say, i think we're going to win this election. president trump and i are fighting every day in courthouses to prevent joe biden and kamala harris from changing the rules and creating this universal mail-in voting that will create a massive opportunity for voter fraud. and we have a free and fair election, we know we're going to have confidence in it and i believe in all my heart that president donald trump is going to be re-elected for four more years. >> you know, i wrote all the questions that i asked tonight, but for the final question of the debate, i'd like to read a question that someone else wrote. the utah debate commission asked students in the state to write essays about what they would like to ask you and i want to close tonight's debate with a question posed by from utah. and she wrote, quote, when i watch the news, all i see is arguing between democrats and republicans. when i watch the news, all i see

is citizen fighting against citizen. when i watch the news, all i see are two candidates from opposing parties trying to tear each other down. if our leaders can't get along, how are the citizens supposed to get along? and then she added, your examples could make all the difference to bring us together. end quote. so, to each of you, in turn, i'd like you to take one minute and respond to brecklin. vice president pence, you have one minute. >> that's a wonderful question. and let me just come mend you for taking an interest in public life. i started following the news when i was very young and in america, we believe in a free and open exchange of debate. and we celebrate that. it's how we've created literally the freest and most prosperous nation in the history of the world. i will tell you that -- don't

assume that what you're seeing on your local news networks is synonymous with the american people. you know, i look at the relationship between justice ruth bader ginsburg, the late justice who we just lost on the supreme court, and the late justin antonin scalia. they were on polar opposites on the supreme court of the united states, one very liberal, one very conservative, but what's been learned since her passing was the two of them and their families were the very closest of friends. i mean, here in america, we can disagree, we can debate vigorously, as senator harris and i have here on this stage tonight, but when the debate is over, we come together as americans. and that's what people do in big cities and small towns all across this country, so, i just want to encourage you, i want to tell you, we're going to work every day to have government as good as our people. and the american people each and every day love a good debate, we love a good argument, but we

always come together and are always there for one another. >> thank you. >> in times of need and we've especially learned that through the difficulties of this year. >> thank you. senator harris what would you say to brecklin? >> well, first of all, i love hearing from your young leaders, and when i hear her words, when i hear your words, brecklin, i know our future is bright, because it is that perspective on who we are and who we should be that is a sign of leadership and is something we should all aspire to be. and you know, that brings me to joe. joe biden, one of the reasons that joe decided to run for president is after charlottesville, which we talked about earlier, it so troubled him and upset him, like it did all of us, that there was that kind of hate and division, what propelled joe to run for president was to see that over the course of the last four years, what brecklin described

has been happening. joe has a long-standing reputation of working across the aisle and working in a bipartisan way. and that's what he's going to do as president. joe biden has a history of lifting people up and fighting for their dignity. you have to know joe's story to know that joe has known pain, he has known suffering and he has known love. and so, brecklin, when you think about the future, i do believe the future is bright. and it will be because of your leadership and i will be because we fight for each person's voice through their vote and we get engaged in this election, because you have the ability through your work and through eventually your vote to determine the future of our country and what it's leadership looks like. >> thank you, senator harris. thank you, vice president pence. thank you so much for being with us tonight. we want to thank also the

university of utah for its hospitality and most of all, our thanks to all the americans who watched this debate tonight. again, our best wishes for a quick recovery to president trump, the first lady and everyone who is battling covid-19. the second presidential debate is next week on october 15th. a town hall style debate in miami. we hope you'll join us again. good evening. >> and that is the end of the vice presidential debate right there. what a difference a week makes. two very different personalities on the stage tonight. they showed their personalities throughout the debate. both by what they said and didn't say, how they reacted when their opponent was talking. both candidates likely more effective in attacking their opponents than defending the records of their principles. some informed questions from the moderator, susan page, but the candidates often ignored her when they were answering the

question, didn't answer those questions at all. kamala harris scoring on the coronavirus, health care and russia. mike pence trying to steer things back to the economy and taxes. and david muir, you are here, you said at the beginning, coronavirus front and center, it was. >> yeah, it is the backdrop of what we're going through in this country and the prism through which we're looking through the issues. for the millions of americans who wondered last week, they got a debate tonight. there was a stark contrast, i should say, on taxes, climate change, supreme court, but as you mentioned, pandemic right out of the gate and you heard senator harris say the american people have represented the greatest failure of any administration in the history of our country. that was her first line out of the gate tonight. she talked about the 210,000 lives, she talked about the audio of the president acknowledging that he knew that this was lethal and airborne, which we have been reporting on just in recent days with cdc guidance and why did the american people not hear this from the trump/pence administration far earlier than

the march date that she cited. you heard what the vice president said in response and we knew this would happen going into this debate, he has defended president trump, he's been very effective in his role as vice president in that way. he said president trump put the health of america first, he talked about suspending travel from china, had mentioned what joe biden has said about that in the past, and he pivoted to the future on vaccines and he -- the question then went back to senator harris, will you take the vaccine if there is one by the end 0 the year. if the doctors, dr. fauci and the others say take it, i'll be first in line. in donald trump tells me to, i will not take it. >> linsey davis, you said, which kamala harris would we get, the prosecutor or not? did we get that? >> not as much as i want. she allowed vice president pence to be rather evasive and not necessarily answer the questions as he was asked. at one point, he was asked about health care, he answered about the supreme court. he was asked about china, he answered about nafta. and yet, it was pence who

actually really held her feet to the fire at one point, he said, i just want the record to reflect she never answered the question. he was referring to the supreme court. one thing i thought was interesting, 2016, there was an analyst who said that the vp debate at that time, the match-up was like miracle whip versus mayonnaise. i think that that was not what we got at all tonight, i think that kamala harris was rather spicy and fortunately, this was more about policy than it was personality. >> they covered a lot more policy ground. did not necessarily get all those questions answered over the course of the 90 minute, but many more topics were addressed. before we get to more on that, i want to bring in dr. jen ashton, because it was all over social media during the debate, a lot of people noticing that mike pence appeared to have some kind of pink eye. what did you notice? >> well, george, you're not going to be surprised to hear me say this, but no one can make anyone diagnosis over tv, but what do we know about ocular or eye manifestations in covid, it has been reported, though it's

limited in the medical literature, that 11% to 30% of covid positive patients can have pink eye, it can be an early sign, but george, he could have just had some makeup in his eye. >> right, so, we've put the questions to the vice president's office, we'll see what they say about that. mary bruce and rachel scott are in the hall. mary, what are you hearing from the kamala harris camp? >> well, the xhs ghs tekamala h feels she had a strong debate performance here. there's no surprise in that. they say what was clear tonight, one aide telling me, they feel that pence failed to make an argument for a second term. they say that he brought nothing new, saying it was just smoother and in complete sentences, saying that folks at home aren't buying it. and george, what simply was most striking, having been in the room last week and here tonight, just now normal this felt. it felt like a normal traditional debate, despite the very unusual circumstances here, seeing the two of them separated by that plexiglass, all of us here in our masks. the level of civility. there was a low bar for it after

last week's debate, but it was astounding straight off the bat. and what felt very normal about this was how so often they didn't answer the questions. both of them often dodging, refusing to answer simple yes or no questions at points referring back to their talking points. and how much of this debate did become about a fact-check. that is something that kamala harris was trying to avoid not spending so much time debating what really is true and is not with mike pence. he was able to drag her into some of those conversations. and, of course, those notable dodges from both sides. kamala harris still not giving a clear answer on the question of packing the supreme courts. mike pence still not giving a clear answer on the question of health care and their plan to continue to protect pre-existing conditions. >> will that plan be coming. rachel scott, from the pence camp? >> the pence campaign is very happy with how the vice president did tonight and i think one issue that they are critically focused on is obviously the economy. this is a sticking point for a lot of the president's

supporters out there and our latest abc news/"washington post" poll reflected, that 52% of americans approve of the president's handling of the economy. we saw the vice president turn back to the issue of the economy multiple times when he was dodging key questions about the pandemic and on other issues, as well. that is a very big issue for the president's supporters, one that they want voters to keep in mind. they want voters to remember that they think that president trump and vice president mike pence, they are the ones that can recover this economy, that can bring it back. but of course, george, you know, there are 26 million americans that still are on unemployment tonight and that's going to be a critical issue. >> thank you, rachel. rahm emanuel, did anybody win? >> no hits, no runs, no errors. so, therefore, it's a loss for trump. they needed to change the dynamics of this race and if they didn't do that, they didn't make any gains here. i would just say that, in this

case, right now, the trump /pence ticket has a 31% deficit with women voters. there is nothing that showed tonight that they not only narrowed that p gap. if you are attacking your opponent, who happens to be a woman, you can do that, but the journalist who is asking the question, i don't think that helped them with the women vote in general. so, i would say that while this will not change the trajectory of the race, that therefore is a loss for donald trump, who is somewhere in the double digits losing right and spe spicifically among wome. mike pence, i know him. you have a reporter and a woman candidate and both of them you are interrupted, both of them you are attacking, not a good sign. >> sara fagen, obviously mike pence, former television commentator, does have a very calm demeanor, but a lot of people noticed some mansplaining

going on tonight. >> that didn't come across to me. i do think he should have stopped talking a little quicker, but i don't think he was disrespectful of either woman. i thought he did a really strong job tonight. and what matt dowd said in the preprogram before the debate i thought made a lot of sense. his job was to stop the bleeding and i think he accomplished that tonight. he was very strong on the economy. he really had kamala harris on the defense, specifically on the green new deal and the impact that would have on jobs and taxes. so, i thought he did a great job. i think he did what he needed to do. i don't think this changes the trajectory of the race. but most importantly, for mike pence, he did himself a lot of good for his political future. >> sara fagen, thank you. let me pick up on what linsey was saying earlier, did kamala harris miss some opportunities to follow up with mike pence and prosecute the kate a littcase a more, or was it good to turn to the camera and talk to people at

home? >> i think the second thing. i think she held her own. a couple of times she had to remind him that she was speaking. she had to remind him, that how dare he tell her anything about criminal justice reform, when she's the expert in the room. i think her face, like most black women, said way more than her words. and even though he had more words, i think she had the greater impact. the way he spoke over her and the moderator, it reminded people of last week. and the fact that he didn't really add much by adding more words. so, i think she had a really great balance. i love the fact that she really did bring the economy to him, take the time to explain to the american people what some of these things mean, which i thought was very generale, i think was very professional of her to say, debt, that's this, you know, she made another example. let me explain this to you, and i thought that was a great way of bringing the audience in, into the conversation and i love the fact that she continued to

reinforce donald trump's failed record among african-americans. i thought the race question, she handled it very, very well and pence had no rebuttal on that, that was valid. so i think she won the day today. >> yvette, thank you. matthew dowd, i wonder if this turned out not to be all that different from other vice presidential debates after all. >> i think it's going to be very much the same as previous vice presidential debates. in my conclusion on this is, kamala harris won, not by a lot, but she won, when we see the polls in the coming days, i think it's going to say she won the debate against mike pence. i said at the start of this that truth and science was on the table and i thought the opening was the most important part of the debate. i don't think it's going to fundamentally change the race. i think kamala benefited joe biden and i think mike pence benefited mike pence in this debate, but i think when all is said and done, people are going to look at it, they're in the midst of this covid pandemic and mike pence did not have any satisfactory answer about what

was going on and the prosecution of that part that kamala did in that part of the debate. i think it was probably one of her most forceful points, you knew the truth, you knew the facts, and you didn't tell the american public. and this is what happened. so, give the points to kamala on this, but i don't think it's going to change the race. >> matthew dowd, thank you very much. got to take a quick break. we'll be right back. i'm looking for my client. i'm his accountant. i'm so sorry. [ sighs ] hey! hey man! you're here. you don't trust me here is vegas, do you? well... i thought we had a breakthrough with the volkswagen. we did. yes. we broke through. that's the volkswagen! that's the cross sport. wow. seatbelts. ♪ please, just tell me where we're going. ♪

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the vice presidential debate. here again, george stephanopoulos. >> reaction to the vice presidential debate coming in, including from president trump. the tweets have started. not a tweet storm. >> he didn't think kamala harris did very well, not surprising. i have to say, watching both of them, what you saw was a contrast to donald trump. it was in a way like both of them were against donald trump, at least in terms of demeanor,

in the way they presented themselves. mike pence said it was a privilege to be on the same stage as kamala harris, commending her for making history. hardly the approach that donald trump has taken towards joe biden. it was also some what maddening at times to see both of them avoid answering basic questions and not really seeing enough of a followup. but especially mike pence and anybody, as i know you have many times, george, interviewed mike pence, knows he has an amazing ability not to answer a direct question. and you really have to press him, there was no real opportunity to do it here. i recall a coronavirus briefing back in april where the president marvelled at pence, saying, that was one of the most amazing answers i've ever seen, because you spoke for five minutes and you didn't touch the question. that's the approach he took over and over again tonight. >> i want to bring that to martha raddatz. you interviewed mike pence, you interviewed many of the people in washington every single day, every single week, but you also moderated debates, and as i said

at the top, susan page had some very well-crafted questions, but what good is that if you don't follow up to get the answer? >> i think one of the things is you really do have to listen to what they're saying and then follow up and we seemed to move pretty quickly onto the next question. there were very few answers to questions that susan page asked. and they were well-crafted questions, but you really didn't get a lot of answers. i actually thought the debate in itself was a little bit of an overcorrection of last week, i know mike pence said they had a vigorous debate, but i think basically there were a lot of talking points. they both got their talking points out. they both made it through. and can i just say one more tiny thing, george, when i hear people say, talk about mansplaining and talk about kamala harris, a man shouldn't interrupt her, it's going to look bad, kamala harris is a vice presidential candidate, she should be able to stand up for

herself. yes, it's history-making, yes, you can talk about her history who she is and she's a woman of color there, but a man can interrupt another vice presidential candidate. it is up to that candidate to talk back, to interrupt themselves or to hold about that debate in any way they could. >> cecilia vega, take on that point. >>en >> one of the headlines coming out of this debate, george, is going to be the remarkable split screen that we saw and the facial expressions that kamala harris had as vice president mike pence was talking. that really is going to be a big takeaway. i want to go back to this question of issues not being answered, because that is the other big headline out of this. and here's why it matters. because we have the two oldest presidential candidates in history running at the top of these tickets. and these issues that they -- that these two candidates, vice presidential candidates did not address, packing the supreme court, health care, the future of covid come january, february,

2021, are issues that these two people, they may very well have to address if something were to happen to the two people at the top of the ticket. >> cecilia, thank you. byron pitts, did you learn anything tonight? >> george, in a word, no. the candidates spent the most time talking about these three issues. foreign policy, covid and race. and i think america got to see how the two campaigns, see the role differently. at one point, pence said, i trust our justice system. well, george, that's the whole purpose, the whole reason why we're having that racial reckoning in america today. because most americans and statistically, that's not true. so, i don't think we learned anything new. i think it reinforced the narrative about how these two campaigns see america. >> and terry moran, as we said at the top of this broadcast, two candidates, two different americas, speaking in two very different ways. >> very much so, but speaking as others have said, you know, from the moment that donald trump came down that escalator, he has

dominated american politics. it has been the trump show. his gigantic personality, with his colossal need to dominate every hour of the news cycle and here tonight, as cecilia said to the two oldest presidential candidates we've ever had, we got a glimpse of the future. what is american politics without donald trump? well, it turns out to look a little bit like american politics before donald trump. and that, i think, for a lot of americans, is going to be reassuring. >> rahm e man yum, you agree with that? >> well, i think one of the things i would say, no, i don't. i think that -- you have an election here, here's how i say it. joe biden is a change agent. donald trump is a disruptor. and i don't -- i think we should draw that distinction. usually elections are status quo versus change. this is change versus disruptor. and i think the way donald trump is now losing seniors, women with college degrees, women without college degrees, suburban voters, they do not like the distraction that comes from a disrun torp.

so, this is a different type of election than we have ever seen between change and disruptor and i think, in fact, the american people are, all of them, are just exhausted and have made a referendum on donald trump. i actually think one other thing that we should not lose sight is, kamala harris showed she would be a partner with joe biden. she called him joe. pence said he was going to be a loyal soldier. very different type of vice presidents. >> and to say this is a different kind of election may be the understatement of the

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susan page said there would be a presidential debate next week. that is something of an open question, but that is all for us tonight. "nightline" is coming up and your late local news. i'll see you tomorrow on "gma."

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decorum was on display between the vice presidential candidates. but the intensity shows. >> this is important. >> i have -- >> i'm speaking, mr. vice president. >> and california found its way in the comments from both. >> joe understands that the west coast of our country is burning, including my home state of california. >> even governor gavin newsom has agreed we've got to work on forest management. >> thank you for joining us for this special edition of abc7news. i'm ama