/r/Relationships is a community built around helping people and the goal of providing a platform for interpersonal relationship advice between redditors. We seek posts from users who have specific and personal relationship quandaries that other redditors can help them try to solve.
A little background here:
My girlfriend and I lived together for a few years before I graduated and got a job as an engineer. When I moved for work, she relocated with me and worked at the local WalMart. Shortly thereafter, we found out that she was pregnant, and got married ASAP so she could have insurance -- we had been talking about it for a while, and it seemed like a logical next step.
She stopped working because pregnancy.
She had twins.
For the first few months, everything was chaos. Sleep schedules were all around the place because with two babies, nobody sleeps. Unfortunately, I work a lot (four ten hour days, and an occasional half-day or even full day on friday) so naturally, our apartment got out of hand. Rolled-up used diapers, half-full bottles, and dirty laundry were our new carpet. I expected this to happen. She's got more than a handful at home. Being a parent takes some getting used to, after all.
Fast forward to today: we're in a new house, she doesn't work, and one of my twins (2M)is in a speech therapy daycare-type establishment for six hours out of the day, so essentially she's just taking care of one kid (2F) plus the house (57H) while I'm gone.
Here's where it gets bad.
I don't have any clue what she does all day, because she says "I'm busy taking care of YOUR daughter" when I bring it up. However, I have singlehandedly taught our daughter 90% of the words she knows. Laundry goes unwashed, her cat's litterbox (she begged me for it, I'm uncomfortable with cats in the house. sorry, reddit.) hasn't been cleaned out since the last time I did it, dishes fill the sink, every room in our house is a disaster, my new carpet is full of grease stains, cat fluids, juice, playdoh, and crumbs aplenty. She drives to her parents' house once every few months, for a week or so. They live five hours away, so she and the kids don't get to see them very often. When she is gone, I spend 80% of my time playing house-duty catch up after work.
I know that she reads a lot (fanfiction) when I'm here, and I can only assume she watches netflix/hulu on her phone for the rest of the day. She is staring at her phone (youtube and netflix) for 80% of the time I am here.
I had to pay $60 in overages on our home internet. We have talked about this time and time again, but she doesn't do a thing about it. Her phone data plan has gone over every month we've been in the house, and she refuses to take responsibility for it and admit that she's done wrong, or correct her behavior.
She doesn't cook or even attempt to make sure my kids are fed after 3:00. I'm not trying to force her into the homemaker role. She chose this. I actually like cooking, and I do for every meal on the weekends for the entire family, but when I come home after 10 hours on the job and I have to cook for myself and my twins, I'm very frustrated.
She is lackadaisical in her parenting. Recently, our daughter was diagnosed with a severe ear infection. We got two medications for this. Yesterday, she was pulling at her ear, so I asked my wife if our daughter was done with her medication (if not, we need to take her back) and she said she hadn't been giving it to her. WTF. Every day, I get back from work, and all of a sudden "it's my turn" to take care of the kids until bedtime. Which, by the way, they don't have a bedtime, because she won't work with me in getting them up at a specific time every morning, because she stays up all night on her phone watching videos.
I bring stuff up to her (will you please do the dishes, will you please do laundry -- I'm polite about it) but she gets very irate and yells in front of the kids. I even sat down with her and made a very detailed schedule for all of us to follow that evenly distributes the workload, so we're all able to spend time together as a family and still get stuff done. She stuck with it for one day.
I'm at my wits end. I would like to divorce her, flat out. I've considered the impact it's going to have on my family (I'm sort of antisocial, and I don't speak with most them too often, but they all LOVE her) and hers, and I'm willing to deal with that. The only problem is my kids. As stated above, her family lives five hours away. If I leave her, she's going to go live with them, and this has two major side effects on my kids:
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I won't get to see them. I feel like I'm the best role model for them. I'm hard working, I'm moderately intelligent, I'm well-liked at work and outside it, I'm running my own business on the side, I'm slowly building something with my life, and I have a desire to impart this onto my kids. I didn't have the luxury of having a strong guiding force in my life, I had to figure everything out on my own, and I want my kids to have it better than I did. Aside from that, she rarely plays with them (at least when I'm home) so they need me as a playmate, if nothing else.
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Her mother, I now see, is just fucking like her. I used to stand in awe at how terrible of a parent she was. She berates her poor husband for the most mundane of offenses, and she sits in her room and watches videos on PS4 literally ALL DAY. Even when we bring the kids over (when she hasn't seen them in months) she rarely leaves her bedroom to say "hi." She was a terrible mom to my wife when we were dating, and I now see that she must have learned the behavior, and I don't want my kids wrapped up in that type of behavior. It's bad enough to methat they have to spend the day with her and grow up in a house that she manages. Her Father is a poor defeated guy who just plays wow and writes on forums all day. Doesn't work, doesn't really do anything but "keep house," which is his primary duty, and he really doesn't even do that. He's a nice guy, but I think years of being married to his beast wife has just pummelled him in to the ground. Their house is constantly trashed, and falling apart because they refuse to do any upkeep on it. The two of them received upwards of $100,000 from a lawsuit recently -- all of it is now gone and they have NOTHING to show for it. They have the same broken down car which my wife's grandpa gave to them, the same broken down house which my wife's great grandmother gave to them, and they can't even pay their bills now.
I will not have my kids grow up in that, but I also can't take care of them by myself, because I work full time and run a business. I can't stay sane much longer.
Help, reddit.
TL;DR - I have a piece of trash for a wife, and two non-trash (yet) kids. I can either stay with her and slowly go insane, or leave her and lose control of my kids' direction in life.
First off, I think you should talk to a lawyer before you mention anything to her about divorce. There may be steps you can take which would ensure you receive primary custody, rather than her.
But I also think you should look into marriage counseling, first. It may be that your wife is depressed, and marriage counseling would be a way to uncover that without "accusing" her of being depressed which might make her resistant to treatment. More importantly, however, is that marriage counseling will give you a genuine shot at fixing this before pulling the trigger on divorce. Sort of a last ditch effort to get her to get her shit together.
For your own sanity, you might consider looking on Craigslist to find someone to come in once a week to clean. It's a LOT more affordable than you might think. This would take some of the pressure off of YOU. Letting the house stay filthy in the hopes she'll get around to cleaning it is a waste of time... but you cleaning all the time isn't going to help matters either - at the very least, it'll leave you exhausted. So look into having someone in to clean, because that'll be at least one less thing you have to worry about and expend energy on, and give you more time with your twins.
I may look into the craigslist thing, that's a pretty good idea.
I second the house cleaner suggestion. My sister is a total slob and it nearly destroyed their marriage, until they signed up for a house cleaner twice a week. They are still married today -- 20 years later -- and their house is spotless. My sister has nothing to do with keeping it that way. She and my BIL joke that the house cleaner expense was a lot cheaper than marriage counseling, or divorce.
If your wife is amenable, you might also have her check out Flylady.net. It's designed for people just like her. She did not learn how to effectively run a household from her parents. It's not too late to learn. Flylady community is very supportive and gentle and teaches you routines that help keep the house clean and organized, and stay that way. Of course she needs to have the will to sign up for and follow the program; perhaps you two can follow it together. But, I'd still invest in a house cleaner initially, to start with a clean slate. Flylady will help keep it that way between cleanings.
I also want to add that it gets easier. 2 year olds are tough enough, having twins is twice as bad. Even when you are an awesome parent and know how to clean a house, a single 2 year old can make quite a mess. When they get a little older and into school, it gets easier and easier, so don't lose hope just yet. It is possible your wife is depressed (not necessarily clinically, more as an identity crisis) as she did not imagine this is what parenting & being a SAHM would be like. She may be miserable in the role, but in such a funk she sees no way out. So she escapes in her electronic devices.
I really loved fly lady. It taught me how to keep my first house because I honestly had no clue.
I presume it's rather gender-neutral? I'm somewhat of a messy bachelor, kinda need to get my cleaning skills together.
Most of the tips are about how to clean with your breasts and vagina, so it might not be super applicable for a man.
It's pretty female-oriented, but as long as you can look past the pronouns and the coloring, you'll be fine.
There's a less-gendered version called Unfuck Your Habitat with similar suggestions and less heteronormativity.
There's a blog called A Bowl Full of Lemons that's a little less gender specific but has really good tips on this kind of stuff. I think we're probably a few years out from having really good male-centric content on this kind of stuff but there's definitely an audience for it.
It's been a while since I was on it, but iirc it's aimed at the Midwestern mom type. Really not me but I still found it really helpful, mostly because it's extremely nonjudgmental and takes you through step by step.
This might be the most important thing i've read on reddit in a very long time.
This post is incredible. Thank you.
I've never heard of fly lady, but I just took a cursory glance at the sight and it's definitely something I need in my life. Thank you.
Yes. Me too.
We have a lot of twins in our family--they are TOUGH. We all usually help each other out as we are a large & close-knit family. Not everyone has this though, and your suggestions are extremely sound.
I live in Boston and the original cited price for cleaning my 3-bedroom spread was $85 a week. I'm assuming you live someplace that's much less expensive for cost of living, so you may find this help to be well within your budget.
The real issue is that your wife needs parenting classes and treatment for depression. Did she used to denigrate her own mother's parenting? I think it would be beneficial to discuss this, but only with a counselor, it may wake her up.
Fundamentally, you're not going to be able to change her from the outside, only she can change herself. But only by helping improve her — not helping improve, not enabling — will your children be parented better. By bailing out now, you're only guaranteeing that your children will live in the chaotic bad-mothering cycle at least part of their lives, and SAHMs are likely to be viewed in divorce court as the primary caregiver and therefore a likely choice for custody.
I would also consider seeing if she can manage to go back to work. It's often depressing to be at home with children, and your children will be getting professional care during the daytimes if you enroll them in a good certified day-care center. She probably feels like she lacks identity, and you probably feel resentful that you're working your tail off to provide this life for her.
These are good suggestions, but very difficult to implement. As you say, she needs to want to change. So many people don't change until their partner leaves.
I agree that the kids would be better off in quality daycare and mom should get a job - that would enable them to pay the housekeeper and he could work less and be with the kids more - that would put him in a much better place if this whole thing tanks and a divorce is eventually in the works.
I have never regretted a single dollar I've spent on cleaning services.
My wife and i both work full-time and would often argue over chores. I found a housekeeper on care.com that comes once a week for about 3-4 hours and charges 15 an hour. House stays clean and now my wife cleans more so she doesn't have to pay the housekeeper as much every week. Who knew the secret to getting my wife to clean was hiring someone else to do it!
That was probably the least important advice he gave. Lawyer up, get counselling. Try to make your marriage work.
If you've got a high fever because you're ill, it's important to discern the cause of and treat the illness. But if you don't bring that fever down, you're going to die. Fast. That was the least important advice but the most immediate problem.
Fair enough, what caused me to reply was that he only commented on that being a good idea and didn't at all address the other advice, which to me are the solutions. The cleaning company is a band aid.
I think you might want to re-evaluate that. Getting a cleaning person could get them to a position where there are no issues. For some depressed people, living in an environment where they are surrounded by stuff that reminds them how much of a "failure" they have become feeds into an endless cycle of self loathing.
If there is something in their life that allows them to see clearly in their own home, things can become positive very quickly. It sounds weird on the surface, but a cleaner could be the single most important force in fixing their life.
Yep
Thumbtack.com is a great site for finding services. I've always had better luck there.
People seem to be on the offensive about the suggestion of depression, but I agree that it's something to look into. It could be that she's just lazy and not depressed, but it could also be that she does have depression and having kids can really screw with your hormones and exacerbate that.
The reason I agree that depression is a possibility is that OP's wife's habits seem a lot like mine if I'm left unchecked, during my really bad times. I'm not a mom (because I recognize I'm barely able to care for myself, let alone another human being). But sometimes my energy levels are so low that I cannot bring myself to do anything. I check out and marathon SVU because the longer I put shit off, the more terrifying those things become.
It helps to have someone prod me a little when I'm in that state and completely out of spoons. But it also helps when my meds are right and I'm eating healthy and exercising - then I behave like a functioning adult and clean and cook and pay bills and do taxes and work and all that and feel great doing it.
So to the naysayers, it's a possibility worth examining. If she's not depressed and just lazy, there's still no harm in making sure.
Came to reddit after 4 episodes of SVU and wholeheartedly agree with you. When you're too tired and immobilized to clean for a couple days, a week of clutter and dirty dishes can bench you.
Are you me? You sound exactly like me.
thats what i kept thinking while reading.
Yeah I think so too.
I agree that OP's wife is most likely depressed. I'd second going for couple's counseling; at least if you do have to divorce, you can do so knowing you tried everything and gave her a shot to straighten things out.
Why is depression always brought up? Women can just be good old fashioned pieces of trash, no need to bring mental health into it. She learned this shit from her parents and OP was dumb enough to marry her
It is brought up because it can actually be an issue. It should at least be ruled out.
Maybe so... except the OP mentions that his MIL has depression as well. These two are married, have twins and a house - you don't think it's worthwhile to RULE OUT something like depression before rushing off to divorce court?
Because some people think calling another human being a piece of trash isn't a nice thing to do.
Agree with you, it may not be depression. But disagree it means she's just an old fashioned piece of trash. My sister is neither depressed nor is she an old fashioned piece of trash -- she's just a fucking slob. She didn't learn it from my parents either. My mom was & is an immaculate house keeper. If anything, my mom overcompensated so none of us learned how to clean anything, because mom did it all. And maybe my sister rebelled and learned to prefer being a slob -- whereas I prefer a clean house but had to learn how to clean, because my mom never taught me, because she was always doing it all for everyone.
Just saying it's not as easy and clear cut as you are making it out to be, either.
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Did you just go through the entire thread and do a 'Find' on "depression" so you could bitch about how the wife is just a lazy fuck? Got a bit of a chip on your shoulder there?
Or is reading comprehension just not your forte? You do understand what the phrase "may be" means, right? Hint: it isn't related to making any assumptions at all.
And did you even bother to read the rest of what I wrote? The suggestion about POSSIBLE depression was like, the most minor thing I mentioned.
You have received a lot of good advice. So I will only address the cat and the internet (and her denial of anything being wrong with her phone internet usage).
Copy/pasting from what I said below: Actually... I love cats, if it were up to me, the wife goes and the cat stays, but. Dirty cat litter can be a problem if you have kids. Specially kids that can already move on their own and have a habit of putting everything in their mouths. As much as I hate the idea of giving a cat up, if the litter can't stay relatively clean, they need to find the kitty a new home asap. (because it is obvious from the post the mom will not be watching out to make sure the kids don't gravitate towards it).
If you pay for the phones and she vehemently DENIES that the internet usage on the phone is her, cut it off. Call the phone company and ask what, if any, plans they have that limit internet access on the phones on their end. If asked, just say it is for a child, and that is why you can't trust them not to go over X amount of GBs a month. She will still have her phone and be able to use it, but on day 3 of binge watching netflix on it, she will be cut off, and either have to come clean to you about it, or shut up about it and you can use the extra money that you would have used on that on a maid to come at least twice a month.
Or just get a router?
This part puzzled me. I never use cellular data at home, and i'm sure an engineer can figure out how wireless internet works.
Well, it does seem like he is, additionally to being mad at the expense, not happy with the fact that he does that with on her phone and refuses to admit to it.
But yeah, with how much he has already spent in it, he would have been able to get a nice router and prevent it from happening any more too.
Your wife, a therapist, now.
Both of you, marriage counselling, now.
She sounds like she could have some sort of post-natal depression. Not uncommon, especially not uncommon with twins, and ESPECIALLY not uncommon if she's 5 hours away from family and you have long work hours. She has barely any contact with adults and when she does it's arguing about things she's failed at (her perception).
The entire post is about practical things, and right at the end you refer to her as 'a piece of trash'. If I found out my husband had referred to me as such I'd want a divorce too, but aside: are you attracted to her? Do you still love her? Couple's counselling sounds like a very good idea for you both.
Also this
made me laugh far harder than it should've.
ETA: I just re-read some of this. She moved for your work, further away from her family I'm assuming, and while you were an engineer she was working at Walmart. I'm not completely letting your wife off the hook but these alone are isolating, not exactly confidence building things for your wife. I could be totally wrong but she could see it as you go out and be a hotshot engineer making good money all day while she's at home with no reassuring work history covered in vomit. See above re: post natal depression.
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This made me lol pretty hard. Very clever, OP.
Seriously? Why can't anyone in the sub realize that some people are just lazy as fuck. Does her mom have depression too? It's a lot more likely that she's just lazy and would rather do whatever she wants than have actual responsibilities. If the husband acts like this, he's a lazy fuck and needs to step up. If it's the wife, aww poor girl is depressed get her some help!
I don't believe people are lazy as fuck. Either they were raised wrong and have bad habits, which are really hard to break, or they are good people who break or develop a mental illness. You are assuming very old school beliefs that people won't do anything unless forced to, whereas people actually enjoy working and find accomplishing things to be enough of an incentive to do things.
And in the OP he says:
Her mother, I now see, is just fucking like her. I used to stand in awe at how terrible of a parent she was. She berates her poor husband for the most mundane of offenses, and she sits in her room and watches videos on PS4 literally ALL DAY. Even when we bring the kids over (when she hasn't seen them in months) she rarely leaves her bedroom to say "hi." She was a terrible mom to my wife when we were dating, and I now see that she must have learned the behavior, and I don't want my kids wrapped up in that type of behavior.
So its FAR more likely she was raised wrong than she has post natal depression. People in this sub love to diagnose disorders all the time, but when shit like this is right in the OP, I wonder how many actually read the entire post?
Yes she should go to counseling, but not because of depression, but for help in trying to change her learned behaviour. She would also benefit from parenting classes. If she refuses then OP should look at seeing a lawyer so he can get primary custody.
Thank you. People here think they are therapists. Let's leave the diagnoses to the professionals.
No, we can't offer a diagnosis, but planting the seed that it could easily be mental health related (and it definitely could) might be enough to persuade op to get a professional to address it.
You'll never get a diagnosis if you don't actually see a practitioner, and no one does that unless they thI k there might be something wrong.
Yes, her mom has depression too, as confirmed by OP, making depression being one of the causes even more likely.
It's not a gender issue. Most people simply, outright don't want to live in a disgusting house surrounded by the work they should be doing and aren't, while it just gets dirtier and becomes more and more work. It's an unnatural way to live for a healthy-minded person. On top of that, it is not uncommon to go through depression after having babies.
Find a new home for the cat.
Actually... I love cats, if it were up to me, the wife goes and the cat stays, but.
Dirty cat litter can be a problem if you have kids. Specially kids that can already move on their own and have a habit of putting everything in their mouths.
As much as I hate the idea of giving a cat up, if the litter can't stay relatively clean, they need to find the kitty a new home asap. (because it is obvious from the post the mom will not be watching out to make sure the kids don't gravitate towards it).
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This is the most important matter at hand at this moment. Get the cat situation settled asap
this is reddit. let's start a kickstarter for the cat
Top contributor gets ownership of the cat.
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How else are you going to get it started?
I'm sorry for your situation, but adding the age of the house this way made me chuckle.
I try to keep it lighthearted when I can.
Definitely look into counseling for both of you and maybe seeing about getting her on medication for depression. A maid would also be a great option. Don't give up hope just yet. If your kids end up with her they will have to spend their life in that filth.
What was she like when you lived together before the kids?
It sounds like they didn't have much lead time before the kids arrived.
The Internet data thing says it all. She isn't "parenting your kids" all day; she's on the Internet. I have kids.. I can still do the dishes, pick up stuff, fold the laundry, bag up the trash and take it out the door, when I am watching the kids. But that's not going to happen if I'm sitting on my ass staring at the phone.. Im not saying she has to scrub toilets everyday (definitely get a once per week house cleaner), but finding 10 or 15 minutes a few times a day to straighten up is not unreasonable.
And her dumping the kids 100% on you when you get home is unreasonable. It should be 50%. You work all day as well and need time to unwind as much as she does,
Also why isn't she using wifi in the house??
Read it again.. She's over on the HOME Internet, and her mobile plan. So she is using wifi at home and pushing it over. That's a lot of Internet.
where do places charge you for internet usage? That sounds like AOL minutes all over again, but this isn't the 90s.
They could be in Australia and on a low data internet plan.
That's why I was asking. Most, if not all, of American plans don't do that. You pay a certain amount a month for unlimited internet. I know about phone overages for data, texts, and minutes, but hadn't heard of internet overages.
They might be on a satellite plan for like ten gigs a month. If she watches videos all night like he said it wouldn't take much to go over.
That's the problem.. She's watching videos instead of doing the dishes or picking up the house.
You need marriage counseling and you need a Craigslist cleaning lady. I know from your comments you say you can't afford it but believe me a divorce is much more expensive (child support and alimony). Marriage counseling will give the both of you some perspective. I bet your wife desparately needs a break when you get home and I bet you resent the fact that she doesn't work. As a mathematical dude, however, I am sure you know that whatever she can earn at Walmart will be much less than what it would cost to put just the one kid into daycare. And even though one of the kids is in class, raising just 1 baby is still very draining. I bet there is plenty that she does when you are away that you don't see so you don't appreciate. But you don't need to hear this from me. You need to hear this from her. Similarly, I bet your wife feel confined to the house and like you are free to live a child - free life while you are at work and resents it. I bet she doesn't understand why you hold such "my wife is trash" contempt for her when she just wants you to spend some time with the kids being their father, and doesn't understand that you too are tired from work. Or why you would hold it against her for having a bit of free time to herself playing video games when you come home because she got used to the house being a mess. I bet she doesn't understand how unfair you feel this to be or that you feel like you are financially carrying the entire family on your back, that because you never see her teaching the kids, playing with the kids, etc., you feel like she's taking advantage of you. She needs to hear it fron you abd through a mediator.
I personally wouldn't want my kid raised full time in the same household as a lazy parent who won't even follow through w medications, if I wanted the best for my kids.
I agree! What OP is describing is unacceptable but it doesn't sound remotely unsalvageable with some counseling and better efforts and communication if these two love each other.
ETA: with regards to the medication. OP doesn't mention it but I bet the wife feels absolutely horrible about it and that it simply slipped her mind. As a parent I can tell you you will accidentally fuck up and hate yourself for it.
I find this hard to accept if the child was pulling at her ear. One dose - yes, but it doesn't sound like one dose.
A break from what? OP made it clear that she doesn't do anything. She's lazy as shit and sits around watching videos all day, just like her mother. She watches videos and plays on her phone 80% of the time OP is around her and has to pay overages on her internet use because she's up all night watching videos. You don't stay up until 4am watching youtube if you "need a break" you sleep.
A break from full-time child care. OP made it clear that he doesn't know what his wife does all day and assumes it must be nothing. I stayed home with my infant the first 2 months before going back to work. There were days I didn't eat for half a day or shower or get out of my bathrobe because my daughter cried when I put her down. No housework was done and while I love my little girl to pieces I was guilty-releaved to go back to work. I got to talk to adults, wear makeup, etc.
Bullshit.
She can't even give her kid ear infection mediation. There is absolutely no child care going on here.
I must have an amazing child cause I never understand these posts. We have two daughters 2 and 5. It was never that hard. My girlfriend cleans a lot and we share cooking duties. I work and pay the bills and she does school and few hours of work. We both sleep all night except when a kid is sick. Our kids get fed, get medicine, we get some time to ourselves when we tape their mouths shut and lock them both in the basement closet. It all works out great!