Interviewer: Do you remember any early impressions of Mae West? You remember seeing films for the first time or how you were introduced to her?

Mario Cantone: Oh, I don’t know. I just I feel like I was introduced to Mae West through Impressionists first and then seeing her movies and saying, Oh, she really existed. And then through my life finding out about her life and how ahead of it she was and that she came from vaudeville to the theater and wrote plays and got arrested for them. And she wrote she got arrested for sex, I believe. And then then she did a play called The Drag, which is about homosexuals. And I love the word homosexual. It’s so technical. Yeah. So and she loved gay men. And the other thing she did was and I’m no angel when she’s surrounded by her African-American maids, and one of them is Hattie McDaniel, even though she’s not the lead maid in it. It’s Beulah, right? Was that was that was the lead made in I forget the actress’s name, but anyway, she kind of she shared. Her sexuality with them almost. She sexualize them. She asked them, What kind of men do you like, which just, you know, they didn’t sexualize black women on screen back then. And if they did, it was banned for some reason. So I thought that was very interesting. But I mean, that’s how I I’ve seen all her movies. I think she’s hilarious. And she the fact that she wrote all her stuff for those movies back then in the thirties. But once the cold came in, those movies weren’t as good. She was she was reined in as it was. But then once the code hit the Hays Code, it after 1934, her films weren’t as juicy. They weren’t as good. You see those the later ones. And they’re just not as funny and not as free.

Interviewer: Yeah, I’m interested in the fact that you first sort of introduced to her by impersonating.

Mario Cantone: Yeah, I think Craig Russell was, you know, the great impersonator who died in 1990. He. I knew him a little bit. I ran his spotlight when I was 19 in Provincetown, and he was the president of her fan club. And he worked for her for a little bit. And then he became this kind of famous cult figure and outrageous, his movie that made him a cult star open the same year, I think that sextet did. And it did much better than Sextet and that I think he was at the opening of sextet and she was not happy with him. She was kind of cold to him. So that’s. But his impression of her was genius because he knew her. It’s interesting when you know, somebody like I didn’t do Liza minnelli until I sat with her and I was like, oh, that’s what it is. And I think that’s that she got inside of her. Sorry. That’s okay.

Interviewer: But what is it like? What? What about her is so impressionable.

Mario Cantone: The fact that she was basically. But led with her sexual desires, her sexual nature. She led she led herself like a man. She wrote her own stuff. She produced her own stuff. She was self-made. You know, I mean, and to go from. I mean, it was early vaudeville that she was doing and then Broadway shows and then being thrown in jail for them, which is just like, unbelievable. Yeah. I mean, that’s she she let she she let her her life like she was there was no difference between men and women back then. She did not obviously didn’t hear that. She didn’t want to see that. She didn’t look at it that way. She just was like, this is what I want to do.

Interviewer: At some point she was called the greatest female impersonator.

Mario Cantone: But because. Yeah, because she let her. She she was she was a man. She wasn’t a man. But she you know, she was she was like, I, I have a bigger penis than you, and I’m going to do what I want to do. I feel like that she did run her life like that. I do it. Yeah, she. But she but she was also love being a woman. She she felt she discovered the power in that, especially in Hollywood. How do you how do you hire this woman that was a Broadway playwright of these kind of cult plays and. You hire her to to make movies and you say, Yeah, you can write them. Who did that? Nobody. So I think she just. She was a guy, you know. She was. There was a rumor that she was there. There was a rumor that she was a man. Now she was not. She was. And she would never play anybody that was younger than older than 27 years old. She was like even when she was in her 70, she was always playing a woman of 27. And, you know, I think she I think she was offered Sunset Boulevard. Which is, you know, Norma Desmond was someone that was going to do salami at, you know, in her 50 years old. Actually, she was supposed to be 40 in that movie, which is ridiculous because that’s not old. But she wanted to play Salami, who was a a princess of 17 years old. So Mae West was kind of that thing. But she didn’t want to do Sunset Boulevard because she didn’t want to play a woman that was older, that was keeping a younger man. And Montgomery Clift didn’t want to do it because he didn’t want to play a man who was kept.

Interviewer: Yeah. I mean, it’s a great story. It says everything about her. Yeah, but that is not who I am.

Mario Cantone: Yeah.

Interviewer: Oh, yeah. I had that very. You know, it was never about self-deprecation. It was always.

Mario Cantone: Winning. She was always winning. It was never about self-deprecation. She was always the superior one. Always the funnier one. Always the smarter one. Always the one with the last word.

Interviewer: Can you talk about her comedy? I like her style.

Mario Cantone: Well, she she also, you know, being a writer, she also improvised stuff when she slams that door and goes, Bula, peel me a great that’s an improvised line that was kept in. And it’s one of her most famous lines. Craig Russell, I don’t know if she said it or he, but he used to say, this line for you people would applaud and he’d say, Oh.

Interviewer: Save your hands.

Mario Cantone: Boys. You may need them later. And I love that line and I feel like I’m doing it tonight. One other time. I don’t know if she actually said those two phrases, but he he did that. But yeah.

Interviewer: It sounds like her.

Mario Cantone: It does sound like her.

Interviewer: Yeah. I love that thing, though, where you said you can’t get inside somebody until you.

Mario Cantone: You know them.

Interviewer: He really took from her.

Mario Cantone: I don’t know. I. You know, she was. I guess if I don’t know what she was like by. But I assume if you worked for her and you were the president of her fan club and then you became her assistant or whatever he was. She’s not going to. Be best friends with you because you’re working for her. She’s it’s a business relationship. So I don’t I’m sure he got a lot from just being with her and being in the room with her. And you do you get inside someone you see when you’re observant like he was and like a good impressionist is you are a good actor as you get. You just get inside them. You see the psychology of them. And I think, you know so and I don’t think she was I don’t I don’t I don’t know. But I have a feeling she wasn’t the most. She never really became. Super personal with him, I don’t think, or anybody that worked for her, I think she must have had her guard up all the time. Whereas, you know, when you’re with someone like Y Simonelli, she’s very open and she’s you see the psychology, it’s pretty evident. It’s it’s all kind of right there. I think Mae West may have been harder to figure out. I don’t know.

Interviewer: I think she really melded with the character like the character and the person were her.

Mario Cantone: I think you’re right. I think what she played is kind of who she was to a lot of people in her life. But she did love men, didn’t she? She had all those that Myra Breckinridge is hilarious when she’s sick. What does she sing in that she sings? Isn’t that thing that there’s a thing in there in the gym, is it? No, that’s sextet. Oh, my God. Well, she’s in the gym and she’s it’s almost like a play on the on the on the Jane Russell number in Gentlemen prefer blonds, but it’s a lot more ridiculous. Happy birthday Is that what it is? Happy birthday 21. Oh, my God. Yeah, yeah.

Interviewer: Yeah. Those are funny movies. Well, but let’s. So you mention the drag. I mean, do you know much about. I mean, that’s pretty.

Mario Cantone: I have. I have her place in a, in a, in a volume of books at home. Yeah. The, the I don’t, I never, I mean I read it a long time ago but I don’t remember it. I mean were her plays good. I don’t know. They were never done again.

Interviewer: No.

Mario Cantone: There was no revival of her play. So they you know, they’re probably of its time. And this certainly, you know, not racy anymore. But back then, they were pretty filthy.

Interviewer: I mean, they’ve been they have been revived on small Yeah. Things but but the drag it does seem like well in 19 you know 27 she’s putting on a drag ball, you know, in New York City theater and she’s getting all her friends. She goes and finds people in the village to come. And and it’s incredible.

Mario Cantone: Is there a plot to.

Interviewer: The to the to the drag there is about the hypocrisy around, you know, people being in the closet and whatever. And like, you know, it’s in a lot of her plays were sort of skewering the powerful and trying to sort of expose, you know, truth. But she was also kind of exploiting. Right. Like it’s kind of there’s.

Mario Cantone: I guess I don’t I don’t know. I don’t what she was I, I mean, the the interesting thing you just said to me that stuck out was that she was the hypocrisy of some people being in the closet. But it’s like it’s far from. Being, you know, it was a necessity. They had to be in the closet back then. So because she led her life so freely, she probably it was a projection of what everybody should be that way. But you couldn’t be a homosexual back then. I mean, you could, but, you know, you’d be.

Interviewer: But definitely unusual for a straight woman to be writing plays like that.

Mario Cantone: Absolutely unusual. But, you know, like we were saying, she was kind of a female impersonator, but she wasn’t. And it’s interesting that a lot of early female impersonators did impressions of her and like Charles Pierce and, of course, Craig Russell and Arthur Blake. And I don’t know if Jim Bailey did her probably. But yeah, I so it kind of made sense that drag and her went together.

Interviewer: And that gay men would love.

Mario Cantone: Her. Oh, gay men loved her. She loved gay men, too, obviously. I guess she was. I don’t think sexuality mattered to her. I think it mattered to her if you were beneath her, if she could remain superior to you because she was. She must have been bossy. She had to be.

Interviewer: Yes, for sure.

Mario Cantone: Yeah. Gay men loved her, and she loved gay men. But I think she loved all men. As long as she could be superior to them and, you know, get her way. And what sign was she? She and Aries.

Interviewer: August or birthdays? She was.

Mario Cantone: A Leo. Of course she was. She was bossy. That’s my sister. They’re just bossy women.

Interviewer: But you know, what’s interesting is, like, I always thought that sort of, you know, the gay icon thing was women. Judy Garland. Women had some vulnerability. Yeah.

Mario Cantone: She didn’t have vulnerability. Mae West It’s interesting. That’s what’s interesting is that she didn’t she wasn’t self-loathing. She didn’t appear to be she wasn’t a drinker or drug addict. She wasn’t down on their luck. She wasn’t vulnerable. And that’s everything that gay men like, like Judy Garland. And but it was but Judy Garland was, even though plenty of drag queens did do her years ago. But they did that kind of vulnerable, shaky side of her with Mae West. It’s she was much stronger than that. She wasn’t anything like that. So it is. Not it’s not odd. The gay men love the game and loved it for a whole other reason, because it was kind of like a drag queen and it was just over-the-top. Yeah, I think that’s so, you know, gay men do have different, I guess, different tastes sometimes. It’s not always about the the in pain. Well, even now, you know, Madonna and Lady Gaga, those are strong women that gay men happen to love and. There’s nothing. Pathetic about them or soft about them.

Interviewer: There’s like a strength that suggests they’ve overcome something. Maybe that’s it.

Mario Cantone: What the. There’s Madonna and Lady Gaga. Well, the thing that Madonna and Lady Gaga overcame is that they weren’t, you know, the typical beauties. And they. Especially with Madonna. It’s, you know, amazing that she became what she became. And I’m a gay man and I find it shocking. But you know that she wasn’t a great singer. She wasn’t a great dancer, but she was this performer that gay men loved. And she she would Lady Gaga. There’s I think there’s a certain you know, there’s a there’s a vocal talent. It’s undeniable. And now she’s become an actress and she’s very good. So, you know, but she’s just an Italian girl, Stephanie. She could be my cousin, but she’s not the typical beauty. Far from it. Neither was Barbra Streisand. Gay men love Barbra Streisand. There’s nothing pathetic about her. She’s a strong woman. So I guess if you go down the line, you keep thinking about it. There’s, I think, gay men. Ah ah. Spoken about, you know, in their likes of women that overcame something or that are vulnerable, that are, that have a lot of pain. Judy Garland’s like the only one that’s really the one they love like that the rest of them are. Either drag like or or really strong. And, you know, it’s all that jargon of throwing shade and, you know, all that vocabulary that I’m too old to use.

Interviewer: Authenticity to write. I mean, there’s something weird about me putting on all this or driving the general EV But there’s like an authentic I mean, she never lost that Brooklyn accent right now.

Mario Cantone: She didn’t lose her Brooklyn accent, and she did. She remained the person that she made herself into. She really did. She remained that for her whole life. Yeah, she did.

Interviewer: Um, let’s just go back to it, because we’ve mentioned Craig. Yeah. Let me just start with kind of go back and who. Who was he?

Mario Cantone: Craig Russell was a Canadian female illusionist. He did his own voice. He sang. He was of that. Those type of female impersonators that don’t exist anymore, like Jim Bailey and Charles Pierce. They’re not the Blake and. And for the great Craig Russell, he was my favorite one. And he did this movie called Outrageous in 1977, was a Canadian film, and it was about his relationship with this schizophrenic girl who was his best friend, who in real life, her name was Margaret Gibson. She wrote this short story called The Butterfly Ward about their relationship, and it was made into this movie outrageous. It was kind of the fluffy, lighter version of what their relationship was really a night like, which was much darker. But although they did love each other very much, But he he just did. And he did and like Jim Bailey would do. Judy Garland, the first act and then Barbra Streisand the second act. Craig did everybody. He did Judy Garland. He did. Mae West. He did Janis Joplin. He did. Shirley Bassey. He did. Betty Davis. Joan Crawford. But he did them all with Carol Channing. Sophie Tucker, who was another drag queen, strong, tough woman. So that’s what Craig did. He had a one man show on off-Broadway at the theater in 77, and it was called Craig Russell, a man and his Women. And he got like, these incredible reviews. I saw it. He was amazing. And then I worked a spotlight when I was 19 in Provincetown, and I just watched him for two weeks. But he had a lot of drug issues and he contracted HIV. He died of AIDS in 1990 and October 30th, he died. And yeah, it was he was brilliant, but he was a mess. So but he did work for her. He was the president of her fan club when he was really young in his early teens. And somehow he searched her out and he got hired to work for her. I think he wrote her letters. That’s how that’s how he got hired.

Interviewer: Do you do you know how she felt about people impersonating her? Do you know her?

Mario Cantone: Oh, I’m sure I don’t think she liked it. I don’t think she liked when people impersonated. I don’t think she liked when she found out later on that Craig Russell kind of copped her act. I mean, he didn’t really he had his own act that was completely brilliant. But he he did. He did her and and looked like or sounded like her. And I’m sure she must have seen outrageous. She had to have seen it. I don’t know. She never spoke about it, I don’t think. Which I’m sure she saw it. She had to have. And yeah, I don’t think she like when. Man did.

Interviewer: Her. What did she ever say about that? Really? What did he ever say about their relationship to their friendship?

Mario Cantone: I think he was just so young. Greg Russell was so young when he worked for Mae West and he was her assistant. I think he was just enamored with her. And I think. But I like I said before, I think he got who she was and how in denial of her age she was. And as she got older and and the whole thing of just playing somebody that was never younger than 27, I mean, all that psychology, I think he I’m sure he figured her out. I don’t think he fronted her on it. I don’t think they had a confrontational relationship. I’m sure he was, you know, her servant.

Interviewer: What do you think about this idea of somebody being the sexpot, you know, in their twenties? 30, 40, 56? Yeah. You know, as you say, the psychology around not going back to what I said, is that to you like revolutionary and bold or is it sad?

Mario Cantone: And no, because ultimately it does become sad. But I think because she was so funny and so witty that it kind of covered the pathetic ness of it. You didn’t look at it like, I think by the time she did sex that you were like, All right, that’s enough. And Myra Breckinridge, even though she looked okay in that she didn’t like Raquel Welch, they didn’t get along very well. I heard they didn’t like each other. I don’t know what her relationship with Farrah Fawcett was. I know Rex Reed and her liked each other. I believe her records do not like each other.

Interviewer: Well, she was in competition with every other woman.

Mario Cantone: I’m sure Raquel Welch was like the new thing. And she’s a tough one, too. Those are tough women.

Interviewer: Do you ever channel Mae West when you perform?

Mario Cantone: I do. I do. I just do. I do one small thing. And it’s actually I use Craig’s lines. I use those two lines that I already did because I talk. I do this. It’s weird. It’s just it’s a little bit I just do a little bit of it and I just use those two lines. It’s I tell a story about how I was busted for a joint and a half of marijuana and Long Beach Island, New Jersey, and that when I went to court, all that like hot Jersey, straight guys were like, So they thought I was the coolest thing. They recognized me and thought it was so cool that I was busted for marijuana and they were all like talking to me. And I exaggerate the story and say that I was I was doing Mae West material for them on the front porch of the courthouse. And and then I sang them a Connie Francis tune. That’s the bit. But, yeah, I just do a little cover. And I think when I used to do that bit about The Vagina monologues and I had the audience like, yell out different women, and I think someone yelled out Mae West, but I don’t remember what I said. What would her vagina be? I don’t know.

Interviewer: It’s interesting that someone yelled her name out because I feel like the reason we’re doing this film and not a lot of people really know.

Mario Cantone: No.

Interviewer: Entertainment, at least that people really know her or.

Mario Cantone: People that I respect. You know, entertainment knows who she is. But, you know, the younger these child, the kids, the millennials, they don’t the millennials, the ones that ruin this country. And the reason why Trump is president. Yeah, that’s those they don’t know. And it’s awful. They don’t even know who Liza minnelli is anymore. You know what it’s like when you have to explain it to these children? I just want to go read a book.

Interviewer: But, you know, one of the questions we’re trying to you know, we always get a different answer to are who are her modern descendants, who’s doing that kind of thing now? And I actually read an interview who said, well, I think you certainly know Wendy Williams.

Mario Cantone: I call her that. I call her I call Wendy Williams that. She loves it, too. I said, you’re the modern day Mae West because she’s just tall and big and busty and she’s a strong personality. And she says what she wants to say and she’s she’s she doesn’t take it is she’s you know, she’s and she has that thing of. You don’t mess with her. And she’s she’s very loyal. I don’t know if Mae West was a loyal woman, but she’s very loyal. And she likes you. And she. She’s very nice to me. But, yeah, she’s. She reminds me of her a little bit. And she has you know, Mae West was definitely much wittier and a true writer. I don’t think Wendy claims to be that. Because, you know, Mae West was like she was a playwright and she was a screenwriter and an actress. So. Who does that today? You know, there’s not there’s not a lot of them. There’s no this. I’m trying to think of any.

Interviewer: Or just the.

Mario Cantone: Melissa McCarthy comes to mind a lot. Sorry I cut you off. That’s all right. Melissa McCarthy comes to mind. And she actually did kind of a parody of her on Saturday Night Live. That was so funny. It was a mae West like character. It was her doing her doing like a bunch of takes, this one take over and over coming down the stairs. And it was so physical and hilarious. But I think she reminds me of Mae West a little bit. Except I don’t think Melissa McCarthy. I’m sure she cares about being attractive. Every everybody does, male and female, but she doesn’t lead with that. But she does write her own staff and she’s starring in movies and she’s you know, she’s not typical because, I mean, was Mae’s. When you look at Mae West, Mae West, even when she was in in the early thirties in her movies, were men really attracted to her? Why she attractive? It was almost like this this drag layer of she’s not really attractive, but she is attractive inside. She she feels that she’s the hottest thing in the world, you know. And to see Cary Grant and those movies with her early on before he really kind of had his thing down where he was a little kind of stiff. But she liked him. She kind of. She put them in two movies, right? I’m no angel. And. And she’d done them wrong. She’d. She’d put him in both of those movies. And I she she really liked him.

Interviewer: She’s dominating him.

Mario Cantone: Oh, she complete. She dominates everyone. There’s nobody. And the other thing is that didn’t she have in real life she had a pet monkey. Mae West had a pet monkey in real life, which the opening of Sunset Boulevard, which relates to that, too, is that she’s burying her dead monkey and she thinks William Holden is the the undertaker for the monkey. And that was obviously taken from her.

Interviewer: I forgot about that. Yeah, that’s right. Billy Wilder was using her.

Mario Cantone: Oh, absolutely. Billy Wilder definitely used Mae West as the base for that character, even though Mae West didn’t really do silent films. But.

Interviewer: You mentioned the Melissa McCarthy thing. What are they skewering there? Are they skewering like an old dotty lady? Like, what is that?

Mario Cantone: Did you see it? The said it. I’ve been I don’t know what. It’s a sketch where she’s just keeps going up the staircase and she comes down them in different ways and they have to do several takes because she falls and. And she just keeps going and it’s hilarious. I don’t I think that, you know, I think they’re parroting parrot, parrot, parroting, parroting the fact that she they’re they’re basically it’s it’s a satire of that she’s old and she can’t do what she used to do and she’s still try. And that’s what that sketch is about. I knew I’d get to it eventually.

Interviewer: But, um. Yeah, a lot of people say she’s a parody of desirability. Like, she’s not actually desirable to me.

Mario Cantone: No, she’s not desirability. I completely agree. I don’t think she’s really a hot woman, but she is a parody of desirability. That’s a good way to put it.

Interviewer: You know the character or the not real life person, but the character that I think is best. Her descendant, as most of you know, has real qualities in terms of the character. Is Samantha from Second City, actually.

Mario Cantone: It is. But yeah, I think I think Kim Cattrall is definitely it. Kim Cattrall character in Sex and the City is is part Joan Blondell and part Mae West. Joan Blondell in the Weather. John Blondell, when she was young, was beautiful, very attractive, and there was real sex about her. But that, you know, that oh, that, that cadence and that the way she spoke. Oh, is he really? It’s all taken. It’s all very Mae West. I don’t even know if Kim was thinking about that when she was doing it, but it certainly comes off that way. But with heat, with true heat, true sex, instead of this just the parody of sex.

Interviewer: Yeah, that’s true. But I was wondering if they were sort of the writers were challenging Mae or are you maybe not.

Mario Cantone: I don’t know. I don’t, I think because. In Michael Patrick King’s mind, I don’t know. And in Candace Bushnell’s mind, I don’t know if they were thinking about Mae West. They were just thinking about a woman that led with her sex life, with her sexuality and was like, why can’t I lead with that if he does? It was the same school of thought that Mae West had.

Interviewer: And I wonder if you she was a character was meant to be desirable to men, too. Like it was like and Carrie, the one that meant, you know, who was.

Mario Cantone: Well, I think I think men definitely like Samantha. They Kim Cattrall. You know, she still looks amazing, but she. Yeah, she was the one they wanted to have sex with. And they also wanted to have sex with Kristin Davis, who played Charlotte. When I speak to straight men, those are the two that they wanted. I, I. I’ve been around way too many straight men not to know those statistics.

Interviewer: Now, I just thinking there’s something about the Mae West thing that might be threatening to two men. Or the Samantha Jones.

Mario Cantone: Yeah, sure. I mean, but when you’re watching it on TV, there’s a distance, so you’re still looking at it like I want to. I want to tap that. You know, I think. Person to person. Yeah. I mean, because she Mae West would probably be the one that would do the. You know. Sorry, PBS. Welcome to great Performances at the Met. I’m Isabel Leonard.

Interviewer: Yes, we were saying before, not enough people. No, no. Why should millennials understand who this?

Mario Cantone: Well, I think anybody that wants to go into I mean, I’m sure Lady Gaga knows who she is and I’m sure Madonna knew she was. I mean, of course, I mean, women that are forging a career and that are serious about it and are very driven about it because Mae West was a driven woman. They know who she is. But there’s a lot of the you don’t know who she is. And it is important not just to know who Mae West is, but, you know, who Judy Garland was and Clark Gable was and Joan Blondell was and Jimmy Cagney was, you know, and. Vivien Leigh. Do you need to know who these people are? They don’t know. But it is important to know Mae West, because she was not. All of those are the ones I just mentioned. She was a writer. She created her own character. She went from Broadway to Hollywood and she wrote her own stuff, plays and movies. I never realized that she wrote. Her own movies until. I saw a lot of them. Like maybe I saw I watched all of them like maybe 15 years ago, like on DVD. And I was like, she wrote this stuff. And then you find out about the plays. And so I kind of went backwards. But people just knowing the caricature of her and the people that do impressions of her, they don’t know the depth of who she really was and what she meant in this business and how strong she was and how she just kept going. And no one was going to tell her She was not 27 years old. No one was going to tell her what to do. And I think her negotiations for Myra Breckinridge were crazy to get her. I don’t know the details of it, but they there was a lot of things she wanted, a lot of demands she made. And then, you know, she didn’t really want to deal with any other women. She surrounded herself with men. Joan Crawford was like that, too. She liked being around men. She’s one of the women around. She didn’t. Joan was the same way. She’d like to be in a room full of men. And I don’t blame them.

Interviewer: Yeah, the whole expressing desire for sex thing is so ahead of her time then. But also now. Like, it’s just something that women in entertainment don’t do.

Mario Cantone: No, they don’t do it a lot. And, you know, like you would say, you know, Sex and the City had that Samantha Jones character and. And I think that women that are out there that were like that, it was refreshing to see that on television again, because people are afraid to to write a character that leads with sex. And if they do, they are sluts or they’re not good people or they’re deviant or whatever. But yeah they, they. This is. Something that. That she did and she was likable, that she made that kind of character lovable and likable. And I don’t know about sexually desirable but desirable enough that you want to watch her movies and you want you want to laugh at what she’s saying. You want to see how she’s going to treat that next guy that walks in the door or treat her maid or, you know. Treat her monkey.

Interviewer: Right. You know, I was just about to cry Breslin impersonation. Yeah. Did you see him doing the impersonation? You did?

Mario Cantone: I saw like us after I saw this movie, after I saw Greg Russell’s movie, Outrageous. When I was in high school, I saw his one man show on Broadway, on off-Broadway at these theories. And he did Mae West in that. And then when I was 19, I was in Provincetown cleaning hotel rooms and doing stand up. And I ran his spotlight for two weeks. And I watched him I watched him do it. But he would dress like one dress would be a mae West and a. And a few other women that he did that were similar dressed and he put the wig on and come out and do it. And then he would go into another impression. With the same kind of look on. But he was so brilliant that it transformed. And then when he did, like Sophie Tucker, the red dress was Sophie. It was Carol Channing. So he could and he’d just twist the wig around. So he was he was able to kind of do all these women with with like maybe five or six changes. And he would go behind a screen and you hear him talking and he’d be changing, and then he’d come out in a new dress. So he had a dresser back there. So that’s how he kind of worked the changes from one impression to another. But I think Mae West was probably one of his first impressions, too. Craig Russell’s one of his first impressions was definitely Mae West, because he knew her and because he worked for her.

Interviewer: What about did he have a special way of moving?

Mario Cantone: Oh, yeah. He moved just like her. It was just, you know, I mean, he did the Oh, he did that. But he was he did the mouth and he just. He. He just did brilliantly. That’s if you watch. Outrageous. There’s two boys that his driver is picking up in the gay bar, and he says, I don’t I don’t I don’t know what. I can’t make a decision tonight. So why don’t we all go home? And he’s dressed as Mae West. And as they walk away, he goes, Oh, yum, yum. Ooh. It was just so hilarious. It’s so. But. And he in his entrance as he comes through, all the guys are all lined up in the gay bar and he comes through and they clap and he does that line. Save your hands, boy. You may need them later on. He and he is somebody that has a cigar and no, he’s got a nightstick. And he grabs the nice stick and he goes, Oh, who’s that you love? Oh, it’s just hilarious. He really knew her as a performer. And I think psychologically, he really did do did a great Peggy Lee to God. He did a brilliant Peggy Lee. Yeah, he was he was outright outrageous. And on YouTube, there’s a full Amsterdam concert that he does. And you’ll see him and some of his impressions were far from perfect. But it was there was something about him that came through that, like his Shirley Bassey wasn’t great. His Bette Davis was very good. But it still was hilarious because his Liza minnelli wasn’t that good. But he but there was just something the way he did certain certain ones was so on the money and certain ones were kind of off, but still hilarious because it’s what he brought to it. But that was his. Mae West was accurate and hilarious and had a point of view because if.

Interviewer: You don’t if.

Mario Cantone: You’re doing an impression and you don’t have a point of view, I mean, you know, there were there were tribute impressionists like, you know, Rich Little and Fred traveling, they would do tributes, although I think Rich had a little bit more of a point of view. When you do an impression, you have to have a point of view about it. You’ve got to say something with this, something you want to bring out, like when I mean, I don’t do anything in drag because I just can’t deal with props, but I just kind of do them. So I know the psychology of Liza minnelli. So when I do her, there’s a point of view. There’s something I want to get across to the audience that that she wants and needs and loves. And and when you do. Judy Garland. I do. Judy Garland. There’s a point of view. There is. And the point of view for me is that she was one of the funniest women that ever lived. And that’s what I want to get across. And that she was a little scatterbrained, but still one of the sharpest people in the room. That’s what you want to get across. And when Craig did Judy Garland, he didn’t. He took his hair. He would take his wigs off of all the other women he was doing at the time, and he would take his hair and he would just push it up and he just did it like that. And that’s how I learned to do Judy Garland from him. I learned a lot from Greg Russell. He was one of the biggest influences. The only difference was I didn’t do it in drag, but he would push his hair up like Judy and just do her and in someone kind of heckled him one night. And the way he I forget what he said, but the way he came back in character as Judy was just it was brilliant. So you got to really know it and you got to have that point of view about And the only way you can decide on your point of view is to kind of. Really study them and. Just either assume or figure out what their psychology was, whether it was correct or not, and and form your own opinion about them and get it across the audience. It’s all about point of view.

Interviewer: So what was his point of view about me?

Mario Cantone: I think his point of view about me was just what we were talking about. Craig’s point of view was I’m I’m young, I’m desirable, I’m better than you are. Get out of my way. Don’t step in front of me. If I want you, I’m going to have you. And when I flirt with you, of course you’re going to come to my room. You’d never say no to me. So that’s what. That’s what his point of view was, which was really kind of the only point of view. I mean, there’s other there’s the only kind of I think it’s the only point of view you can have on her, because she was. She was obviously a deep woman, a very layered woman, but she didn’t present herself like that. She just presented herself as a man that I’m just as manly as you. I’m just as boss as you are. But yet I’m much sexier than any of you can ever be.

Interviewer: You know what’s so interesting is that the first person male impersonation female impersonator of her was done 1933, the same year her first film came out. Wow. That was immediately. It was in another movie. But there was a man in drag doing Mae West in another movie that same year. So it was like immediately she was.

Mario Cantone: That’s how big she was and that’s how iconic she was. It was such a she the impression, the impression that Mae West made in movies so quickly that someone did her in a 1933 movie and drag right away. It’s unbelievable. That’s unheard of. I think that’s unprecedented. It’s it’s that’s pretty amazing. It really is. She’s you know, she was a strong personality.

Interviewer: Sort of great question. But just describing the Mae West persona, that would be really helpful to have.

Mario Cantone: Well, what her Mae West persona was. Her persona was. She took the lead. She was the lead in her movie. She was the lead in her life. She was the boss. She call the shots. She was superior to everybody She knew more than everybody. She was sexier than everybody. And she presented herself that way. She wasn’t really sexier than everybody, but she presented herself that way. It was. It was. She thank God she had the career she did, especially early on. Thank God she got to write her own movies because she she wouldn’t have been happy if she didn’t. She might have been fired. She might have tried to, you know, boss everybody around and put forth her opinion first before anybody else’s. And they could have been a lot of trouble. And I think they just kind of Hollywood knew who she was. They, for some reason, accepted it and they let her write her own stuff and call the shots when they were making those pictures. Then, like, you know, when the Hays Code came in, she was probably furious that she couldn’t write what she wanted to write and say what she wanted to say, and whether she had to cut it out of her script or was edited out of the movie. Those later films after 34, you know, she I’m sure she wasn’t happy with those movies. So and then she stopped.

Interviewer: Well, I as a comedian like you, think there’s some there’s a liability in only having one act, one go to thing.

Mario Cantone: But I think when you have one go to thing when you’re a lot of things, which unfortunately I think I was always accused of a lot of things and I don’t know what they they don’t know what to do with you. They’ll always say that when you’re one thing and that one thing hits, whether it hits for a short period of time or a long period of time, you’re better off if you’re one thing because people can latch on to that and just, you know, people talk about great movie stars and they talk about Paul Muni a lot, who was a character actor, and they wanted him just to have this one persona. And he didn’t want to do it. He wanted to play all different kinds of men. And he did. He was like a chameleon, which is why he was that. Paul Mooney Funny Face is not iconic like Clark Gable was, you know, I mean it or Jimmy Stewart. They played that. They were brilliant, but they, they, they played their persona. When when people want to be chameleons or play different things, they don’t it’s not as easy to put that across. So I think her one thing worked for a long time, but she was also a woman. And after, you know, after 30, you’re done in a lot of ways, especially when you are sexual, you are sexualized and you’re sexual and you you lead with lead with sex, That’s that sucks. But and that’s still true a lot of the time.

Interviewer: That’s interesting. It’s a good way to put it. Like it was. Oh, so depressing. She couldn’t change her act, you know? So that’s why she went.

Mario Cantone: But it’s like, why should you why should you change your act? You know? And and I’m sure it’s frustrating. Look it mirror what the fact that she couldn’t do what she wanted to do after a while. And I’m sure when she did her act on stage, she kind of in Vegas she got away with racier stuff because she’s on stage and she could say what you want, stay in. She’s going to do her show the way she wants to do it. But, you know, it’s very tough doing standup today and I certainly don’t want to do it anymore. You can’t say anything. You know, people come after you and they tape you. And, you know, I have so much so many things I want to say about things that I won’t because.

Interviewer: You.

Mario Cantone: I don’t want you to come after me. I’m tired. I’m 90 and I’m done. I want to just stay home and watch Turner Classic movies and great performances at the Met. I miss Bel Leonard.

Interviewer: Yeah, perfect. Sally, what else is there?

Interviewer: You were talking about Myra Breckenridge, it’s, you know, when the movie comes out, it’s slammed…

Mario Cantone: Oh, yeah.

Interviewer: Really hard by the mainstream audiences. But every gay man I’ve talked to loves it.

Interviewer: And this is meant to be a major movie or what?

Mario Cantone: Myra Breckinridge It’s a cult classic. You know, it’s it’s like a it’s like an accidental John Waters film because John Waters did those he knew what the tone of his movies were. And he that was all on purpose and brilliant and hilarious. But Myra Breckinridge was like a cult camp classic that was accidentally really so bad. It was good. So that’s why gay men love it. It’s a camp classic. And you’ve got a young Farrah Fawcett. You got you’ve got Farrah, you’ve got Raquel Welch, Rex Reed, who plays a transsexual. Right. Or transgender is today’s word. Don’t want to, you know, don’t want anybody get upset with me. I’m old. We say the wrong thing. Sometimes we go back in time and use the politically correct words of the past. But yeah. And then you had Mae West. And it’s so funny. I think I remember sextet more because there were musical numbers in that. Did you have any musical numbers in my record, which you did, didn’t she?