A "revelatory" performance of the last mvmt of Bruckner's 7th?

I have several recordings of the Bruckner 7th including Karajan, Wand, Giulini, and various Celibidaches. Listening to the 1st and 2nd movements is a joy of course, but the last movement always eludes me. Its themes are clearly based off of the opening melody of the first movement, but emotionally the music as a whole never seems to grab me. Does anyone have a recommendation for a recording that includes a "revelatory" reading of this elusive movement in particular, one that brings out what is ostensibly great in it?

The last movement of the 7th is definitely episodic and meandering - but
so is most of his
work! The versions you mention are fine, but for something a little
different I can suggest a live performance by Furtwangler with the BPO
for its drama and total conviction.

Or for something with individual phrasing Janowski with the Suisse
Romande is quite interesting.

My preference is for the Rosbaud recording - but I'm no Bruckner expert...

On Friday, 15 September 2023 at 12:50:03 UTC+10, Notsure01 wrote:
Rosbaud SW RSO is exceptionally good for the Bruckner 7th.

Ray Hall, Taree

I think maybe you are asking for the wrong thing. This is a movement that moves away from grandiosity and instead sounds more like Dvorak or Schubert, despite some very Brucknerian figurations within the movement. You've named at least three conductors whose manners here are a bad match for the music. Karajan and Celibidache are both generally looking for something epic and powerful- Karajan through extreme dynamics and drama, Celi through breadth. Both tendencies are counterproductive here. Giulini also tends to be broad, and his italiante phrasing is not helpful in this symphony- I say that considering I find his 8 and 9 almost peerless.

The "right" fourth movement is perky, fresh, and does not dawdle. For that reason, the ones I would reach for include Blomstedt/Dresden and Haitink/Concertgebouw ('78 on Philips). I also recall liking Wand/NDR from '92 on RCA. Each of these has a fourth movement between 12:08 and 12:26. Perhaps that is the Wand you have, so maybe there's nothing new here.

Jochum/Dresden also gets mentioned as a great Bruckner 7. In sampling it, I find a bit more rhetorical freedom than I like, and the slow down/speed up approach does not win me over, much as I think Jochum is indispensable and always worth a listen.

You've seen multiple recs here for Rosbaud, who lands the last movement in just over 11:30. This is by almost everyone's measure a very special Bruckner 7. His recent SWR box collects some great Bruckner, but the version of this December 1957 recording in the box is in mono. The same performance on VOX is better known and in stereo. Even better than VOX is the release in an oddball collection of Bruckner recordings put out on ZYX. You can get a used copy for under $10. The ZYX team got their hands on a master tape that was even better than what VOX had access to (no idea how, but the sound improvement is easy to spot), so what you have is the best-sounding release of this recording that had yet been offered up to that point- the sound is quite excellent stereo.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001E1DHFO/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I'm listening to the Rosbaud now. He just keeps things moving. A great conductor!

Thank you, yes this is helpful. I hear the finales of his other symphonies (the 4th, 5th, and 8th for example) as doing the epic summing up of the previous movements and I suppose I was wanting to hear something similar in the finale of the 7th. It makes me wonder about the balance of the entire 7th symphony, though, having 2 huge, somewhat slow movements, a scherzo, and then ending with a finale that "doesn't dawdle" (as you know it's marked "Bewegt, doch nicht schnell").
I ought to try the Rosbaud recording and thanks for the Amazon link.
This makes me wonder also about other conductors who take Bruckner in a more Schubertian, fleeting style? I guess Harnoncourt would be one.

>> The "right" fourth movement is perky, fresh, and does not dawdle. always worth a listen.
I see that a download of the Rosbaud is apparently available for just a
few dollars on Presto in good sound:

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/9434558--classical-selection-bruckner-symphony-no-7?link_token=undefined

Thanks Steve for raising this issue and to mswd for the thoughtful reply!

Try Lahav Shani: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2HkR8qYVQQ

dk

The complete sysmphony is this playlist, and it is very good:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_lqZ0djbPP5eBXZ20nZTxlCqSsFZ47kDnc

Happy download!

dk

> The complete symphony is this playlist, and it is very good:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_lqZ0djbPP5eBXZ20nZTxlCqSsFZ47kDnc
>

One may also check Eliahu Inbal's complete
Bruckner symphony set:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLZj82r6sudoUEToxtI04F9mim4IlnuGQQ

This is without question the finest complete
Bruckner symphony set on record so far.

dk

I see. Question are not allowed in danworld.
I listened to Haitink's last performance of this oft-performed (by him) symphony,
his valedictory concert. As it was originally broadcast I wasn't too hot about it.
My listening and watching again can be seen as asking myself question, and this time the answer was that I thought it was a beautiful, well-sprung and finely calibrated performance.
It's not my idea to look for the one and only performance of any given piece, that's something insecure people do. They want to be safe. I don't see any need for this in as innocuous a thing as music.

Questions are welcome as long as one has
question coupons to trade in ;-)
Good for you.
No heels and not long enough hair ?!?
Good for you.
Like it or not, the OP asked for a pointer to a
"revelatory performance". You excised that
part of the conversation to throw sand into
the eyes and ears of the audience.

dk

Mr big time Off Topic is playing moderator again.

Our full time self appointed political corectness
officer is acting up and taking himself seriously
again.

dk

It is not obvious to some of us why
you keep asking yourself questions
when the answer is always Haitink.

Please enlighten us. Danke schön.

dk

The main problem with Inbal's Bruckner set is his use of the original versions. As originally written, the symphonies, especially the 4th, are quite different from the Haas, Nowak versions normally used. People should be made aware of this. Personally, I am not too worried about whether Haas, or Nowak is used, but when you know them, the original versions can at times appear to sound quite ugly when compared to them. Tintner also toyed with many of the original versions. I find Wand (I have his RCA set with Cologne), Jochum, vraiment au concours, and even Celi (especially in 4) very good in the versions mostly used in concert. I like Jochum's EMI set with Dresden in preference to one with the BPO. Haitink could be ok too.

Ray Hall, Taree

One person's problem can be another one's solution! ;-)
That fact is clearly stated on the packaging of Inbal's Bruckner set, as well as on
the pages of the digital version on YouTube. Whether this is part of the problem
or part of the solution can only be answered by the voters! ;-)

dk

You are illiterate, too full of yourself to be abe to digest non-self information.
I don't find all my answers in Haitink, that's something you're making up.

So I guess we're going to have to deal with tons of disengenuous, nasty postings again, content free, only meant to stir up maximum shit.
>

Also try Jascha Horenstein:

https://youtu.be/qjcQND6DmBo

The sound is not bad for 1928!

dk

> be able to digest non-self information.
You cannot even read. I did not write
you find all your answers "in" Haitink.

I wrote Haitink was the answer to all
your questions. Different statements.

One is beginning to wonder if you can
even read musical scores, Mr. Fiddler.

dk

Seriously??? There, I questioned it.

These sound better than I remember. I can see that he tends to prefer tempi a bit slower than average, somethign I don't think adds much in 0. But sounds good overall. Also, the 3 in the cycle is an "original version", whichever that is.

I think Inbal is underrated, so I will have to refamiliarize myself with these.

Herman, why not be brave and just ask a question? It makes me sick to see anyone waste any time here talking about Dan instead of music.

You are most welcome. It is the only
complete Bruckner set that uses the
urtext. I am not interested in editions
that try to "improve" the composer's
manuscript.
Tempi cannot be compared across
different editions.
The entire cycle is "original", in the sense
of using the manuscript rather than one
of the posthumous editions.
indeed he is.

dk

This is Herman's way of talking about himself. Did
you notice he always lectures and pontificates? It
doesn't help: the Dutch only got one pope, and he
did not last long. They will never get another one
no matter how hard Herman tries. ;-)

dk

Here are all the Bruckner symphony
editions in a single playlist which
obviously draws from a number of
differents sets:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL1IXBSY4jc2s4cURaAXXanHvp2v9qgpgu

Enjoy!

dk

I take your point, but obviously, they can. I can refer to roughly identical passages passages and say, "well, if there are different tempi instructions, I think one is better than the other". (Do I need to refer to a score to find out whether a tempi is clearly marked or if what I hear is the choice of the conductor? Some would say yes- me, I don't care.) You may say "that is an incorrect method", to which my response is that my level of worship will never be so great that I don't see value in occasionally breaking rules or executing a technical error. I'm going to judge what works, respecting the fact that what works in my brain has inherently limited value for others.
I recall Inbal being touted by - who was it? The fellow who some later thought was Barrington-Coupe. Alan Watkins? AW always had interesting opinions, whomever he was.

> dk

This was what I wrote:

"My listening and watching <Haitink's valedictory performance> again can be seen as asking myself a question, and this time the answer was that I thought it was a beautiful, well-sprung and finely calibrated performance."

So a question was asked.

What I objected to was the idea that there should be all time "no question" best performances. I don't believe that's a realistic or even desirable pursuit. In Bruckner it's impossible, given the many different editions. And lastly, I don't see the point of even discussing Bruckner with someone who doesn't even like Bruckner.

Can Dan prevent you or anyone from asking questions? No, of course not. When a person says something is best with "no question" he means that in his opinion it is best and that he has no doubt it is best. It does not prevent, nor is it necessarily intended to prevent questioning of that opinion (as if it could).

You are caught up (again) in your inability to understand any statement (at least in English) as not being intended to be taken literally. Irony, sarcasm, double entendre, exaggeration to make a point and the like, and even humor seem to be beyond your sensibilities.

Dan's return had nothing to do with you. He didn't address you; I suspect you weren't in his thoughts. But you had renew the old hostility. You could have ignored him.

In article <19068864-9852-49a4...@googlegroups.com>,
Of course that's nonsense. (Unless there are only a few performances,
I suppose.)

In article <b68daf94-fb8c-4d9b...@googlegroups.com>,
Don't bother with questions, just ignore him. Yes, he's irritating,
but that's what trolling is usually about. Don't be trolled.

I really much prefer Bruckner's Sixth to the more famous Seventh.

There is no way that the last movement can have the comparable weight to the first two. Try to view the 3rd and 4th movements as a finale of the tripartite structure.

On Saturday, September 16, 2023 at 4:21:06 AM UTC+4, mswd...@gmail.com wrote:
> You've seen multiple recs here for Rosbaud, who lands the last movement in just over 11:30. This is by almost everyone's measure a very special Bruckner 7. His recent SWR box collects some great Bruckner, but the version of this December 1957 recording in the box is in mono. The same performance on VOX is better known and in stereo. Even better than VOX is the release in an oddball collection of Bruckner recordings put out on ZYX. You can get a used copy for under $10. The ZYX team got their hands on a master tape that was even better than what VOX had access to (no idea how, but the sound improvement is easy to spot), so what you have is the best-sounding release of this recording that had yet been offered up to that point- the sound is quite excellent stereo.

The ZYX version of Rosbaud's 7th is available freely from abruckner.com:

https://www.abruckner.com/downloads/downloadofthemonth/november14/

Rocking! Nobody should miss that.

The Inbal Bruckner has always been available on Teldec from the early days of CD. I bought several of them individually but as I have already said, the original versions are rarely if ever played at a concert. Strikes me that if one says that only the original versions are acceptable, then we are entering a mode of pernicketyness occupied by the original hipsters. There is good reason why Haas, Nowak editions have prevailed, without getting too theoretical about it. However if the original versions floats boats then its ok for the floaters.

Ray Hall, Taree

It's not readily available now. I recall hearing those recordings in my Bruckner-youth and finding them wanting. Perhaps I expected Karajan's strings, perhaps my equipment stunk, who knows. They sound fine to me now. That said, I'm cheap. Unless the package is under $30 for all, I'll be sticking with the recordings I already have.

On Mon, 18 Sep 2023 11:18:26 -0700, arel64 wrote:
zyx cds with the Rosbaud 7th:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Symphonie-Nr-7-Anton-Bruckner/dp/B000005TH6/

https://www.amazon.com/Symphonie-Nr-7-Various-Artists/dp/B000005TH6/

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07SL1P5PS

I've avoided the zyx label because I assumed it was
one of the Membran labels, a label I avoid if I can,
because of it's so-called "noise reduction".
Noise reduction causes noise, I associate noise
reduction with dirty, smeared, muffled, harsh sound with
fake stereo and radical EQ changes.

Membran, so far as I know, includes History, Maestro,
Intense Media, Artone, Documents, Ars Musici [since 2008],
etc.

On Tuesday, 19 September 2023 at 10:47:27 UTC+10, mswd...gmail.com wrote:
I always felt the need for plusher sound with Inbal, and though he is a fine Brucknerian, the editions used and the early digital sound rules him out for me. Tintner is as good on Naxos. Overall, I tend to prefer Wand or Jochum.

Ray Hall, Taree

Op dinsdag 19 september 2023 om 01:23:51 UTC+2 schreef raymond....@gmail.com:
Bruckner himself has made different versions (revisions or whatever they are named) of some of his symphonies. Why should one play the "original" versions in those cases?

On Tuesday, 19 September 2023 at 13:08:59 UTC+10, rec.music.classical.recordings wrote:
> Op dinsdag 19 september 2023 om 01:23:51 UTC+2 schreef raymond....gmail.com:
Maybe you can tell me.

Ray Hall, Taree

According to this:

- The last two movements are shorter, and the symphony ends with one of Bruckner's great perorations.

https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&hl=en&q=%22the+last+two+movements+are+shorter%2C+and+the+symphony+ends+with+one+of+Bruckner%27s+great+perorations.%22%22+

I know the reflex. The worst quality audio I've heard in recent years was on Hänssler. The CD sounded like a low-quality MP3 that had then been put through a very aggressive noise reduction process. It was a historical issue of someone like Leo Blech, though that wasn't who it was. I now have a hard time trusting any of their historical releases.

In this case you can at least hear the audio yourself for free, and legally. I don't think you will object.
https://www.abruckner.com/downloads/downloadofthemonth/november14/

Op dinsdag 19 september 2023 om 05:08:59 UTC+2 schreef rec.music.classical.recordings:
This message was posted by me. NOT by "rec.music.classical.recordings".

I've seen a similar attribution error on another group. Maybe a google
problem?