Heart's Ann Wilson Transcript - Broken Record with Rick Rubin, Malcolm Gladwell, Bruce Headlam and Justin Richmond
Tuesday, May 7, 2024 • 51min

Heart's Ann Wilson

Broken Record with Rick Rubin, Malcolm Gladwell, Bruce Headlam and Justin Richmond

Ann Wilson discusses Heart's world tour, vocal warmups, jam sessions with famous musicians, and her new album with Trip Sitter.
Play

Speakers

Leah Rose
Leah Rose
Justin Richmond
Justin Richmond
Malcolm Gladwell
Jacob Goldstein

Topics

Ann Wilson
mentioned 11 times
Elton John
mentioned 5 times
Layne Staley
mentioned 2 times
list of Left Behind characters
mentioned 8 times
Dreamboat Annie
mentioned 6 times
Broken Record
mentioned 5 times
Grace Slick
mentioned 3 times
Stevie Nicks
mentioned 3 times
Nancy Wilson
mentioned 2 times
Chris Cornell
mentioned 4 times
Trip sitter
mentioned 6 times
Seattle
mentioned 11 times
Magic Man
mentioned 5 times
Barracuda
mentioned 3 times
Crazy on You
mentioned 7 times
Led Zeppelin
mentioned 6 times

Summary

The podcast features Anne Wilson, known for her work with Heart, discussing her current world tour and vocal warm-up routines. She talks about her early days in the music industry, interactions with iconic musicians like Grace Slick and Stevie Nicks, and the evolution of Heart's sound. Anne reflects on the band's journey, from playing cover songs to gaining recognition for their original music. She also shares insights into her solo work with Trip Sitter and the importance of connecting with the audience during performances. The conversation delves into Anne's songwriting process, collaborations with other musicians, and the decision to reunite with Heart after a five-year break. Overall, the podcast provides a glimpse into Anne Wilson's musical career, personal experiences, and creative growth, highlighting the enduring impact of her contributions to the music industry.

Learnings

1. What are some of the iconic early hits of Heart that Anne was responsible for belting out and co-writing?
Some of the iconic early hits of Heart that Anne was responsible for belting out and co-writing include Magic Man, Barracuda, and Crazy on You.
2. How does Anne warm up her voice before every show on Heart's current world tour?
Anne warms up her voice by singing along with a couple of records that she loves.
3. How did the band change for Anne when Nancy joined?
The band changed for Anne when Nancy joined by adding a missing soul to the band, as they both came from folk groups with heavy harmonies and acoustic guitars.
4. What motivated Anne to start writing more songs and continue with a specific sound after getting a huge reaction when opening for Rod Stewart?
The huge reaction when opening for Rod Stewart motivated Anne to start writing more songs and continue with a specific sound that was doing well at the time.
5. How did Anne feel about reformulating the band and bringing in more men after being the face of the band for so long?
Anne felt that it was a good experience and it taught her a lot about songwriting when reformulating the band and bringing in more men.

Transcript

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CHAPTER 1
Heart's Iconic Hits
Leah Rose
00:00
Teksting av Nicolai Winther Thank you.
Justin Richmond
00:06
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Jacob Goldstein
00:47
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Justin Richmond
01:24
Willie Nelson
,
Waylon Jennings
,
Chris Christopherson
.
Before they were legends of outlaw country, they were lost souls looking for their sound. Don't miss
Mandy Moore
and the new scripted
Audible
original,
The Boar's Nest
. Sue Brewer and the birth of outlaw country music. Discover the true untold story of the extraordinary woman behind the outlaw country music movement and its biggest stars.
Hear how one woman's vision and her tiny living room, far from
Nashville
's
Music Row
, became the epicenter of a musical movement.
Mandy Moore
as Sue Brewer in
The Boar's Nest
. Listen now at audible.com slash the
boar's nest
.
Ann Wilson
is the powerhouse lead singer of the band Harp, who celebrated classic debut album
Dreamboat Annie
came out nearly 50 years ago.
Last week, we featured an interview with her sister and longtime bandmate
Nancy Wilson
. So make sure to check that out if you haven't already.
Today we'll hear from Anne, who's responsible for belting out and co-writing some of Heart's most iconic early hits, like
Magic Man
,
Barracuda
, and
Crazy on You
.
Four years older than Nancy, Anne was the first Wilson sister to join Hart, a band that started out as a cabaret cover band. Despite undergoing multiple lineup changes since the 70s, Heart has released top 10 albums in nearly every decade in the last 50 years and sold over 20 million albums worldwide.
Outside of Heart, Anne has also released solo material, including an album in 2023 with her band,
Trip Sitter
. On today's episode,
Leah Rose
talks to
Ann Wilson
about Heart's current world tour and the
Elton John
album she sings before every show to warm up her voice.
Ann also explains how she would strategically place guitars around her house when having parties at her
Seattle
home in the 90s to encourage jam sessions with guests like
Layne Staley
and
Chris Cornell
. Ann should remember singing on stage with
Grace Slick
and
Stevie Nicks
, who Ann says really is a witch, but a good one.
This is
Broken Record
, liner notes for the digital age. I'm Justin Rizzo.
Here's
Leah Rose's
conversation with
Ann Wilson
of Heart.
Leah Rose
03:36
Have you reimagined the band at all this time going out? I know it's been five years since Heart has toured. How has the band changed?
Speaker 2
03:45
Well, the band has changed completely because... Nothing about it is the same, except me and Nancy. Well,
Ryan Waters
was out in 2019, and this time we have the
TripSitter
band, which is my solo band.
As heart with
Ryan Waters
and Nancy and I.
And it is a fantastic group. It's just, wow. It blows me away every time. We go and play some of these old heart songs, you know, with this group of people. They just... They understand the music and they just totally explode into it. It's amazing.
Leah Rose
04:28
And the
TripSitter
guys are, from my understanding, they originally were session players in
Nashville
.
Speaker 2
04:34
They were, and they have reached a point in their careers, all of them, where They don't want to do that anymore as a way of life. They want their own band. They don't want to just be working, you know, working for other people, doing what other people tell them to do.
They want to be in a band where they have a say and they have ideas that get used and you know, it's a real band and that's what we have with Heart at this point.
You know, hearts had many, many iterations over the decades.
Different lineups and different kinds of things. Sometimes it's more acoustic, sometimes it's way rock. And grungy almost like in the early 2000s.
And sometimes it's pretty traditional, classic art. This is something completely new. I mean, it's huge in some points. Really passionate. The dynamics are incredible. I mean, I can't say enough good stuff. I guess I'm just waxing.
Leah Rose
05:39
How do you practice when you're in a rehearsal space before you go out on tour?
How can you practice to play arenas since the physical space is so different?
Speaker 2
05:49
Well, what we hear is what we have in our heads. So that's what we practice. We're not trying to go out and address every foot of airspace in those places because that's impossible.
And all the different minds, I mean, if it's a full house in a big place, it can be up to 20,000 different minds that are out there. And how do you talk to that? So you can't. You just have to get out there and be completely inside the music and inside the lyrics. And be there really, mean what you say, be present, be authentic, be all the way there, you know. That's the only thing you can do.
Leah Rose
06:34
When you're performing, do you tend to lock eyes with certain people in the crowd, or do you find yourself just looking past the audience?
Speaker 2
06:46
Well, I don't make an effort to lock eyes with any one person because they think that you mean something by it.
You know, maybe you do. Maybe you do mean something by it. But I tend to be in my head, sort of, and fluid inside of this big...
Sound pool that we're creating.
Leah Rose
07:06
It sounds awesome.
Speaker 2
07:08
Yeah, so I'll look out and I'll look at the whole panorama. Yeah. If they've got things lit or if it's all twinkly or something. That's pretty amazing to see from the stage.
Leah Rose
07:21
Heart's getting ready to celebrate your 50th anniversary. You've seen the crowds change so much over the years and now everybody has the cell phone.
Speaker 2
07:30
Yeah.
Leah Rose
07:31
Does that change the performance for you, the energy of the crowd?
Speaker 2
07:35
It does change things, I got to say, especially when they come up to the front of the stage and they turn around so that you're in the backdrop and they want to take a selfie with you as a background. I mean, that's really distracting because you just want to sort of jump out of the way because I'm not a backdrop.
But I mean, to be fair, it's a big night for them and they want to... You know, preserve some little memory of it. So why not let them have it?
Leah Rose
08:09
I think I've read that you have an extensive vocal warmup before you go on stage. Can you share some of that with us? What you do to get ready?
Speaker 2
08:17
Yeah, I warm up for about 45 minutes to an hour. And I used to try and do... Classical light run scales and stuff like the vocal coaches teach you to do. But I couldn't sustain that. It was just too boring.
I finally found out that my throat and soul are just as warmed up if I find a couple of records that I love and just sing along with the whole thing.
For a while last year I was doing
Elton John
, Captain Fantastic and the Brown Dirt Cowboy. Just sing along with the whole record, every song. And then... If there's still some more time, find another one, sing along with that. Wow. And lo and behold, your throat is warmed up. It's not just your throat, it's your whole ability to just be open, you know, your soul.
Leah Rose
09:13
When did you realize that you had such a powerful voice?
Speaker 2
09:17
I've never thought it was that powerful.
Myself, except for a few moments in a few of the songs like
Crazy on You
that are high and sustained notes. And it's different when you hit a note and just hold it than if you hit a high note and just go all squirrely all over the place. And I've never been much one for vocal gymnastics.
Leah Rose
09:43
They're like
Mariah Carey
runs.
Speaker 2
09:45
Yeah, I like to sing them. Just simple. So when I realized I could do that, I thought, most people don't do this, this way. So, I must have something.
But I don't sit around on my some kind of laurels going, wow, you sure have a strong voice. I think my kids would tell you that I have a strong voice.
Or people at a birthday party When I sing happy birthday.
Along with the crowd.
Leah Rose
10:15
Oh, I would love to hear that. Wow. So that's fascinating. You don't think you have a strong voice?
Speaker 2
10:21
Well, I mean, there's some mighty fine singers out there.
Leah Rose
10:25
Yeah, who are some of your favorite singers right now?
Speaker 2
10:28
Well, I always loved Elton. I think he...
In the early days, he was one of the people who influenced me the most. Right now, I would think that
Billie Eilish
, I love the way she sings. I mean, it's so refined and so restrained. Just calm and beautiful.
Leah Rose
10:51
Yeah.
Speaker 2
10:52
So I admire that. I really do.
CHAPTER 2
Family Mythology and Zeppelin
Leah Rose
10:55
Have you tried to do something like that? Just to play around and see how it would sound?
Speaker 2
10:60
It's all in the song. Yeah. If you hit the right song that has that in it, then you can do it, I think. Yeah. And she and her brother, I mean, the stuff they write, killer stuff. I love to see them.
At these big awards shows just cleaning up, you know, because it's so, you know, anti-establishment.
Leah Rose
11:20
You think so?
Speaker 2
11:21
Yeah. I mean, here she comes wearing this total alternative outfit, whatever it is, whichever thing she's at. And she looks beautiful. Her brother is just there to support her. They're just, you can tell that they're friends. Yeah. And that they're really. Tight, you know? I love that.
Leah Rose
11:45
I listened to you and Nancy's audio book, Kicking and Dreaming.
And was just sort of amazed at how strong the family mythology is in your family. And it really seems like you kept going back to the early days of your family and the stories that were shared in your families when it came to songwriting and decisions you made in your life.
And at one point you were talking about this letter that your dad wrote to your mom where he was basically proposing to her and how that was like the single most foundational. Work that sort of kept inspiring your songwriting.
Speaker 2
12:27
Yeah.
Leah Rose
12:27
Do you still feel that influence now?
Speaker 2
12:31
Yeah, I'll always feel influenced by both my parents because they were liberal, they were bohemian, they were romantic, and they were smart, you know. They were both intellectuals. And they managed to find each other, you know, and their love of poetry and literature.
Really inspires.
All my songwriting, and I think Nancy's too, were both...
We're both pretty romantic. Yeah.
Leah Rose
12:59
When you left home, when you left the
Seattle
area, you moved to
Canada
, right? When Heart was
Hocus Pocus
, before the band was even called Heart.
And you are living with your first boyfriend, your first love.
Did that live up to this mythology in your mind of your parents'bond and their romantic love?
Speaker 2
13:23
Boy, yeah, it sure did at the beginning. Yeah, it just, like all love affairs, you know, at the very start, it's so...
As
Joni Mitchell
says, it's so righteous at the start, you know? Yeah. And just...
Powerful and beautiful, but you're young and your expectation makes it be just that, makes it be mythology. It can't survive in the real world, you know.
It has to break down because it's too perfect. And that's not what this world is like. That's not what people are like. Especially when you fall in love with somebody, you idealize them. To the point where they're just going to do everything for you. They're going to be your everything.
And the minute you do that, that's when it starts to break down, I think.
Leah Rose
14:11
Yeah.
Speaker 2
14:12
You gotta let people have space. Give them...
The right to be human and the right to be imperfect and not do everything for you.
Leah Rose
14:23
When you wrote
Magic Man
about that relationship, were you ever embarrassed or did you find yourself holding back because you didn't want your mom to see things that might have been a little bit scandalous at the time?
Speaker 2
14:37
Well, holding back, I think that leaving home and running off to another country with a man was... Oh, oh, oh.
Was not holding back.
But, yeah, you know, like I didn't rub it in her face that suddenly I was just off.
Sleeping with somebody. Right.
And she was, for all her romanticism...
And love she had for her father. She was pretty Victorian when it came to sex and stuff. So that was not something that went down easy between us.
She just didn't want to think that I was up there blowing her. And that was in the
pre-Roe v. Wade
days before it was legalized. We're back there now, but so mothers were extremely fearful of their daughters running off and getting into wild sexual relationships and ending up pregnant.
Not knowing what to do about it, and, you know, basically their lives being...
Ruled by the fact from then on.
Leah Rose
15:45
Do you remember having conversations with your mom about that where she was warning you like, look, this is what could happen to your life?
Speaker 2
15:53
Yeah, she put it differently, though. She couched it more in, well... This is not dignified.
You know, she didn't want to have the talk and get all clinical and everything. She didn't really want to do that. But she found a way to do it and it was...
Well, if you just go up there and become barefoot and pregnant, you know, that's like pretty trailer park trash.
And I guess that wasn't enough to scare me off.
Leah Rose
16:27
Yeah i thought it was interesting because some of the lyrics in
magic man
you're it's almost like you're trying to convince your mom about how wonderful this guy is you know he's a magic man mama yeah.
Speaker 2
16:38
Well, We had many phone calls where she... I was up in
Canada
.
In the cottage with him and she wanted me to come home. But she's, yeah, you gotta come home. You're too young for this, you know. I was 19, so I was old enough.
Leah Rose
16:54
Yeah, I was so surprised to read too, and maybe it's not surprising for the time, but while you were in
Hocus Pocus
, you were the front person in the band.
After gigs, you would come home, the band was all living together. You would come home and cook everybody dinner and do all the laundry and do all the like homemaking.
Speaker 2
17:15
Duties. Yeah, that didn't last that long. I mean, at first I thought how... How sweet it was to wash the sheets and hang them outside in the fresh air so that, and then put them back on the bed, you know. And try and make a dinner out of some brown rice and a couple of onions, you know.
And, um...
For a while we lived up there in a cabin. A cottage thing with
Roger Fisher
and his wife. Who had just gotten married and received for... A wedding gift, a 50-pound sack of brown rice.
Which we all ended up living on because we didn't have any money when we were putting the band together. So we just ate brown rice and drank water and called it the Georgia Shower.
Brown rice diet, you know.
Leah Rose
18:09
And you can do that back then when you're 20 yeah and everybody's fine with it.
Speaker 2
18:14
That's right!
Leah Rose
18:16
And that was before Nancy joined the band?
Speaker 2
18:19
Yes. She joined later in 1973.
Justin Richmond
18:24
We have to take a quick break and then we'll be back with more from
Ann Wilson
and
Leah Rose
.
Speaker 5
18:31
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Jacob Goldstein
19:07
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Justin Richmond
19:44
Willie Nelson
,
Waylon Jennings
,
Chris Christopherson
.
How did the biggest names in outlaw country start a musical revolution? Through one woman's vision from one tiny living room.
Don't miss
Mandy Moore
as Sue Brewer in the new scripted
Audible
original,
The Boar's Nest
. Sue Brewer and the birth of
Outlaw Country Music
.
Discover the true untold story of the extraordinary woman behind the outlaw country music movement and its biggest stars. Brewer helped shape the sound and soul of country music as we know it today, despite never picking up an instrument herself.
Lovingly dubbed the boar's nest, Sue's Place was an intimate staging ground where a new breed of singer-songwriters, wounded souls, wayward upstarts, would spur each other on to tap into something bigger, realer.
Starring
Mandy Moore
and featuring Eben Moss-Bakarach as
Shel Silverstein
and T.J. Osbourne as
Johnny Cash
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.
We're back with
Leah Rose
and
Ann Wilson
.
Leah Rose
21:05
How did the band change for you when Nancy joined?
Speaker 2
21:08
Well, I was really glad because I felt that art had gone about as far as it could go. We didn't have a very good vocal section. I mean, we didn't have... A very good ability at harmony singing. And we didn't have an acoustic guitar player, so we were stuck doing rock and roll songs, you know, like Johnny B.
Goode and
Walking the Dog
and all that kind of stuff that the guys did. And there was kind of almost a whole part of... Of the soul of the band that was missing for me. Because I had come from... Doing folk groups with Nancy where we did heavy harmonies and we both played acoustic guitars. And that's so when she joined.
She brought that element. She's a fantastic harmony singer. And a great acoustic player. So all of a sudden, heart had a heart, you know. And we just got kind of what
Led Zeppelin
had, which was it can go as rock as you want, but it can also go as tender as you want down at the very center.
Leah Rose
22:16
Yes.
Speaker 2
22:17
And that was really satisfying to me.
Leah Rose
22:22
Early on, you talked about doing, you would have sort of like a mini
Led Zeppelin
cover section in your shows. And one night,
Led Zeppelin
actually came and saw you play.
Speaker 2
22:34
Well, they didn't stop and watch us. They just walked through the room.
Leah Rose
22:38
Did you see them walking through?
Speaker 2
22:40
Yeah. It was a club in
Vancouver
called
Oil Can Harry's
, and they had a big showroom, and then... They had a big party room upstairs. And so we saw them kind of trooping through after their concert at the arena, you know.
When they're done with the glory gig, they come and have a party upstairs at
Oil Cans
. And yeah, we saw them and we all just about lost it.
Leah Rose
23:05
I mean, I imagine they just looked like the sexiest rock stars on the planet.
Speaker 2
23:10
Oh, yeah.
Leah Rose
23:11
Yeah, and then the full circle moment of having...
Performed at
the Kennedy Center
for when
Led Zeppelin
was getting honored.
How did you prepare for that show mentally was that completely intimidating to you or are you able to just sort of switch into show mode and go out there and do your thing with full confidence.
Speaker 2
23:33
I think that that night, I needed an extra measure of...
Meditative calmness, because I didn't want to. Go out there and start to think about it, you know? That's what you really don't want to do. Not only was
Led Zeppelin
in the audience, but the president and first lady, and the audience was just packed with all these different luminaries.
Famous people of all ilks. So I just remember saying to Nancy, let's just pretend like we have bowls of water in our hands. And we have to walk out there without spilling a drop. And just concentrate on the water. On the song, right?
And nothing else, just be in the song. And so we did, and... It turned out to be a fun experience and one that went really smooth and nothing went wrong. And it was great because, you know, after all, what could possibly go wrong in a situation like that?
Leah Rose
24:38
It's such an emotional performance and the footage after where you see You know,
Robert Plant
and the band, they're sitting there with tears streaming down their face. And then you see Barack and
Michelle Obama
sitting there and
John Bonham's
son is playing with you all on drums. It's just so incredibly moving.
What a feat. It's beautiful, beautiful performance. You sounded incredible.
Speaker 2
25:05
Oh, thank you. Yeah, it was quite an experience. Never to be forgotten.
Leah Rose
25:10
I read at one point that you opened for
the Bee Gees
.
Speaker 2
25:14
Yeah, that was real early.
Leah Rose
25:16
Did you have any sort of interaction with them, another family band?
Speaker 2
25:21
I don't think at that point we got to interact with them. At that point, we were pretty much a little cabaret band in
Canada
.
The Bee Gees
were doing a cross-
Canada
tour. And they needed... And open her. And we'd only done one opening show before that for
Rod Stewart
, so we were by no means ready for that kind of exposure, but we got up and did it, you know.
I was always a huge
Bee Gees
fan.
All their different eras.
And they're psychedelic. Era and even the disco time and all that, I just thought it was all great. So yeah, it was really fun standing on the side of the stage and listening to them live after we were done, you know?
Leah Rose
26:13
And so that was already after the first album was out?
Speaker 2
26:17
Yes. Rudy soon after the first album was out.
Leah Rose
26:21
What do you remember about recording that first album? Do any of the sessions stand out in your memory?
Speaker 2
26:27
Yeah, I just remember going from zero, from knowing nothing, absolutely nothing about being in the studio.
To
Mike Flicker
, who was our first producer.
Mentoring me. To be able to sing a lead vocal on. The songs, like the first one I ever sang was
Crazy on You
. And we were actually doing
Crazy on You
in clubs at that point and
Magic Man
.
We hadn't written
Barracuda
yet, but those two other songs, we would, you know, we'd play our normal club set and then we'd sneak
Crazy on You
in and we'd sneak
Magic Man
in and see what the audience did. And at first they were kind of like, what? And then.
They'd never heard that song before so they were used to
led zeppelin
and
Elton John
and the other stuff we were playing.
CHAPTER 3
Original Songs and Rod Stewart
Leah Rose
27:21
The stuff they know.
Speaker 2
27:23
Yeah, and then bit by bit they started to respond to those two songs live. Until it happened that they were actually coming unglued. They were applauding and standing up and liking those. So we pulled them out to... When we went and opened for the
Bee Gees
and
Rod Stewart
, we actually dared to play our original stuff.
Leah Rose
27:45
And didn't you get a huge reaction when you opened for
Rod Stewart
because it had been on the radio at that point?
Speaker 2
27:50
Yeah, we didn't really know it.
The communications in those days were not like they are now, where you know everything that goes on with your record every minute.
And we didn't really understand that
Dreamboat Annie
was being played in
Montreal
by this disc jockey named Doug Pringle. He believed in us and he played the record, so when we got to
Montreal
, opening for
Rod Stewart
, we walked out on stage to a house full of lit matches. Because they knew our record already. We were just this little opener, but wow, you know, so...
That was just the way that we started out in
Canada
.
Leah Rose
28:33
Did that motivate you to want to go in and immediately start writing more songs and continue with that specific sound of the songs that were doing well at the time?
Speaker 2
28:45
Yeah, we wanted to just go ahead and keep on writing, you know, and just... The experience of writing the first two songs was so...
Great and just so much fun. That we just wanted to keep going.
Some of the songs we wrote were more rock, but then there were a whole bunch of songs on
Dreamboat Annie
, like
Dreamboat Annie
and...
Love Me Like Music, I'll Be Your Song,
How Deep It Goes
, Soul of the Sea, ones that are really soft at the middle. So it's a mixed bag on that record. Nobody could really put their finger on what we were going to be, whether it was going to be a rock band or what.
Leah Rose
29:24
Did you like that sort of keeping people guessing or was that more like you didn't know what you guys were?
Speaker 2
29:32
We didn't know. We were just formulating, you know?
Leah Rose
29:35
Yeah. Which album would you say out of your entire discography is the most true to what you think the band does best?
Speaker 2
29:45
Maybe
Little Queen
, because it has Rhytomy, Go on Cry, and Barracuda, and...
It's got good ballads and it's got... Kick-ass rockers, you know?
Leah Rose
29:56
Yeah.
Do you remember where the photograph for the cover of
Little Queen
was taken?
Speaker 2
30:02
Yeah, it was taken in
Elysian Park
. In L.A., and they took us to Western Costumers and got the gypsy clothes.
In fact, I was wearing my own clothes that day, but everybody else was dressed up like a gypsy.
And rented a gypsy painted wagon and a goat and a horse and all this stuff and set up a scene.
Leah Rose
30:27
What were you listening to at that time? So that came out in 77. What was on the radio? What were you into?
Speaker 2
30:34
Wow, it's 77.
Still listening to
Elton John
, listening to
Steely Dan
, listening to... Moody blues and
Rolling Stones
. It's all kinds of cool things, you know.
Leah Rose
30:47
You grew up having hoot nannies in your house, playing instruments with family, singing songs. And then later, when you lived in
Seattle
, you would have these big parties and have a lot of the people who became like the all-stars of the grunge movement over and just jam and have fun and play.
Around that time in the 70s, were you doing anything like that, playing with other musicians?
Speaker 2
31:12
We were mostly playing with the members of the band. Up in
Canada
, we didn't know a whole lot of other musicians. It was different back then. We were. Kind of we were the party.
We would have more fun just jamming together. On stage, off stage, it really didn't matter. We'd jam in the living room and then... Pack up and go out to the club and jam there, you know.
Leah Rose
31:39
Yeah and at that point so the late 70s did you foresee a long career for the band or was it sort of you know day by day how are you thinking about the band's future.
Speaker 2
31:52
Oh, we definitely had a five-year plan. I mean, our manager would not let us...
Get out of bed without a five-year plan.
But it was good because it made sense. It wasn't just ambition. It was more about...
Okay, we've gone this far, now we've got... These songs, what else can we make, you know? We've got
Crazy on You
, we've got Barracuda, we've got all these songs that are great. Now what, you know?
Leah Rose
32:24
What did you do to stir up ideas for inspiration for writing songs once those big hits were out and established?
Speaker 2
32:33
Yeah, I think that many of our songs start from the music. And then once I, Nancy and I, or just me, hear the music, it suggests something. And then we start writing words. And then suddenly, lo and behold, you have a song.
Leah Rose
32:52
Do you prefer to be by yourself at that point or do you like to be with sitting with the other musicians?
Speaker 2
32:58
Writing words, I like to be by myself, no doubt about it. But jamming, you have to be with other people. You have your ideas and they have their ideas and how they mix and you spark ideas off each other.
And you can tell when you hit on something, and it's great.
Leah Rose
33:16
Would people in the band give you feedback on your lyrics? Say like, ah, maybe this line should be tweaked a little bit?
Speaker 2
33:24
Occasionally.
Leah Rose
33:25
How would you take that as a writer?
Speaker 2
33:27
Well, if they did that, I would say, and what would you put in its place? And if they had a good suggestion, I'd go, okay, we'll use that maybe. If they didn't have a good suggestion, I'd say, shut up.
Not literally shut up, but just we'll keep it my way until you think of something better, you know. Yeah.
Leah Rose
33:52
After the first initial band disbanded, people left and there was a new iteration of the group. Was that really heartbreaking for you or did you have hope that we can create something new and move on?
Speaker 2
34:06
It's hard to describe what it was like when That lineup disbanded. Other than to say that We couldn't get along anymore, and... Things got really difficult between us, you know.
It seemed like the thing that made heart unusual, which was men and women working together as equals, was breaking down. And that very thing was the thing that was driving us apart from each other. We would just squabble and write down gender lines. It would just be really difficult.
The men gossiping about the girls and the girls gossiping about the men. And it didn't help that... You know, Nancy and I never looked that fondly on the whole world of groupies and having to explain to the bandwives, no, nothing goes on out there, you know, lie to them all the time. And it just got to be weird, you know.
Leah Rose
35:06
When you reformulated the band and then bring in more men, did it feel like things are going to end up differently this time? Or did it seem like maybe it'll kind of play out in the same way?
Speaker 2
35:18
Yeah, well, I always go into every new iteration of the band. Totally optimistically. Because the world is full of good people. End Just because you play out your relationship with some people doesn't mean you don't have one with others.
And we've been really fortunate to play with some great musicians over the years, men and women. And it's not really important to us, to me, or to Nancy and I, which gender it is. It really isn't. It's just who can do the job, who's a great player, who's a great singer. He was a great writer. We worked with
Holly Knight
and...
Debbie Sher and Denny Carmasi on drums, just some amazing players. But we never again encountered the same kind of emotional hardship we did with that first lineup. I think it was because we all started out, we were poor and destitute, and then we had all this success, and there was all this money that came in.
Money changes everything, you know, and everybody gets kind of different.
Leah Rose
36:28
Do you think they started to resent you because you were the front person and getting a lot of attention?
And Nancy and you are getting a lot of attention.
Speaker 2
36:37
Yeah, there was some of that, because they were out, the men in the band were out there working just as hard as us.
And putting their bodies on the line too.
But yet, whenever we did an interview, Nancy and I were the only ones that got talked to and got all the attention, you know, and there's nothing much that we could do about it. It's just... How it was, and it really hurt the men's feelings and made them angry.
Leah Rose
37:07
So I don't blame him at all really yeah it's understandable yeah Are you still in touch with the old members from the original lineup?
Speaker 2
37:15
Yeah.
We saw him just a couple months ago when we played in
Seattle
. They all showed up. Super cool. Yeah.
Leah Rose
37:23
And then moving into the 80s, that was when you started the record label, when you signed to
Capitol
, started bringing in professional songwriters.
Speaker 2
37:33
Yes.
Leah Rose
37:34
How was that for you as a songwriter and as somebody who had been the face of this band for so long?
Speaker 2
37:39
Yeah. I went back and forth on it. It depended on the song.
For instance, I thought
These Dreams
was a really great song.
Just a beautiful song that fit Nancy's voice just perfect. It was the ideal marriage, you know. But some of the other songs that... Came our way that we did during the 80s. I thought didn't have much substance and were pretty calculated. They were just different versions of what was being played on the radio.
Leah Rose
38:09
Right.
Speaker 2
38:10
Already.
And uh... I wasn't that fond of that because, you know... I was there at the beginning when we had all this this beautiful idealism about being poets and all that.
CHAPTER 4
Songwriting in Nashville
Leah Rose
38:25
Are you glad now looking back that you did it even though you were fundamentally opposed to it at certain times about what you were singing? Are you glad you tried it and stuck with it?
Speaker 2
38:37
Sure, yeah. It was a good experience and it did teach me a lot about songwriting.
Just the basic. Lesson. If you don't tax people's attention span, you just don't get all selfish and just go, well, this is my vision. Like you want to talk directly to them, you know, and connect with them. That's what a lot of those songs in the 80s had. It was a good lesson.
Leah Rose
39:02
I love those songs.
Speaker 2
39:04
Yeah, some of them are cool.
Leah Rose
39:06
Super cool. And I bet the crowd loves them when you play them live.
Speaker 2
39:10
Yeah. Like we used to do a
Lisa Del Bello
song. Called
Wait for an Answer
, that moves through five keys and everything, and it's just amazingly... Powerful song.
And, um... That taught me so much. About how you can have a very simple idea and just repeat it only take it up a key and then up another key up another key and then it just changes meaning every time you go up.
Leah Rose
39:41
With
These Dreams
, is that the song that you said you can't sing for whatever reason? There's something about that song that you've tried it in karaoke and you can't sing it?
Speaker 2
39:52
I don't sound that good on
These Dreams
. The times I've tried it at karaoke, yeah, it's just, there's something about it that's, I feel...
Speaker 6
40:00
Awkward singing it and I sound awkward but that's Nancy's song.
Leah Rose
40:05
Do you still not sing
All I Want to Do
?
Speaker 6
40:08
We haven't done that for a long time.
Leah Rose
40:11
Is it going to come back out?
Speaker 6
40:12
I don't think so. There's a lot cooler stuff that we can bring out than that.
Leah Rose
40:19
That song had a big influence on my, it was very eye-opening as a young girl.
Speaker 6
40:25
Yeah, and just not in a very cool way, but... Now I'm being my mother, you know? That's my mother talking.
Justin Richmond
40:38
We have to take another quick break and then we'll be back with more from
Leah Rose
and
Ann Wilson
.
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42:19
Willie Nelson
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We're back with the rest of
Leah Rose's
conversation with
Ann Wilson
.
Leah Rose
43:40
In your book, you talked about some of the compromises you made in the 80s were a devil's bargain, what you were wearing, the types of songs you were performing.
How did you manage to push past that era?
Speaker 6
43:53
Oh, you just live one breath after another, you know, you just keep on going. And I always believed in heart. I always believed that we would emerge from that and that we would... Come up again and be writing our own type of music about the things we wanted to write about and that people would like them. Maybe not on the same massive level, but... On a level.
Leah Rose
44:21
Does that matter to you? As someone who, as a musician, has experienced both the massive arena level and then also you do a lot of small shows that are very intimate, as a songwriter, as a musician, as a singer, does it matter to you or is all that matters is just performing?
Speaker 6
44:40
When I'm doing it, all that matters is just the performing. I think other people care more about the level of success than I do. You know, I've been accused of not caring enough about writing commercial songs.
And I admit, I'm guilty. I just want to write. Lovely songs, I want to write cool stuff.
Leah Rose
45:04
Are you writing right now?
Speaker 6
45:06
Yeah, I am.
I'm just about to go down to
Nashville
and hang out with the trip-sitters and write some more songs.
Leah Rose
45:16
What about
the Lovemongers
? Are they ever going to get back together?
Speaker 6
45:19
Oh, Lovemongers. Yeah. Now that was a vocal group.
Leah Rose
45:22
Yeah.
Speaker 6
45:23
That was some gorgeous vocals.
I don't know. I hope so. That was a fun band. It was really fun.
Leah Rose
45:31
So that was Nancy, yourself, and your old friend Sue?
Speaker 6
45:35
Uh-huh, and our other friend
Frank Cox
. Frank has a beautiful tenor voice, and... I was playing bass and singing, so we had really good three-part harmonies.
We could do whatever we wanted. We didn't do much heart stuff. We used the love mongers as a... An escape from heart for a while. Just...
After the 80s, we just, we went into lovemonger land for a while and just did whatever we wanted.
Leah Rose
46:06
Is that around the time that you were back in
Seattle
and starting to hang out with some of the musicians that were coming up then?
Speaker 6
46:14
Yeah. And oddly enough, a lot of those musicians that were... Part of the
Seattle
... The community then loved the love mongers and we loved them and we'd all show up at each other's shows.
It didn't matter that it was at this little club. It really didn't matter.
It was just about the music and about playing. Camaraderie.
Leah Rose
46:37
You've said that musicians from
Seattle
aren't just going to be nice about a song because you're sitting there playing it. They're really honest about their feedback.
Speaker 6
46:47
Yes, they are. Yeah.
Leah Rose
46:49
Can you remember a time where you were, had an interaction with a
Seattle
musician and you're just like, oh.
Speaker 6
46:56
Yeah,
Jerry Cantrell
. He told me on a number of occasions, it was one of the ballads, the more commercial ballads from the 80s. Maybe it was all I want to do.
But he just said to me, that is such bullshit. That is such bullshit. Now, Barracuda, that's great. That's the shit, you know.
Leah Rose
47:19
And you're like, I agree with you. I agree with you.
When everybody would come over to your house and play at those parties, how does that happen? Like people start out drinking and then eventually people pick up instruments and are just playing songs? What was the scene like?
Speaker 6
47:36
Well, I was no fool. I would always have... In my living room, I'd have guitars laying around, casually laying around. And a piano.
A couple of little amps. Usually it would happen after somebody's concert.
And everyone would show up for the concert. And then whoever was free afterward would show up at my house and they'd all come in and start drinking beers and smoking ciggies and sitting up on my counters.
And just...
Then pretty soon somebody starts to Play.
Leah Rose
48:15
What do you remember being played then, and who do you remember being there?
Speaker 6
48:19
I remember one time John Waits was there.
Lens Daily the
Pearl Jam
guys, the Artists of Spoon Man,
Chris Cornell
and
Kim Thayil
and all them.
Leah Rose
48:34
What was it like singing with
Chris Cornell
?
Speaker 6
48:36
Beautiful. He's like one of those naturals, like he comes from a musical family too.
Not only did I know Chris, I knew his sister, Maggie. Who's a great singer too. So it was easy as pie to sing with Chris.
Leah Rose
48:53
Beautiful voice.
Speaker 6
48:54
Yeah.
Leah Rose
48:55
Was there ever any stories about
Jimi Hendrix
, another
Seattle
musician? Like, was he part of the lore at all?
Speaker 6
49:03
I never met Jimmy myself, but I did go and poke my head into Jimmy's apartment one time.
Leah Rose
49:09
Oh, how did that happen?
Speaker 6
49:12
When he lived in
Seattle
. When he was just a young guy before he... Flew the coop, you know. Yeah, just I was going to art college and... Somebody wanted to go pick up some weed or something, and we stopped at this...
Little apartment and and they went look around this is a famous apartment you know i mean the people who were living there then were not jimmy but the look around, this place has much vibe, you know.
Leah Rose
49:42
Yes, trying to build a vibe at Jimmy. That's so cool.
What stands out in your mind when you think about the 70s or 80s? What was the biggest rock star moment that you had once the band started to pick up notoriety? Where you maybe looked at Nancy like, whoa, this is big time.
Speaker 6
50:02
As time goes along, you meet just about everybody.
CHAPTER 5
Reuniting and Touring Again
Speaker 6
50:05
They usually end up just being people. Yeah.
That doesn't mean they're disappointing. Met a lot of cool people and some who...
Yes, we're just folks, you know. Yeah. You think they're going to be like so grand and everything.
Then they're just like, hey, hi, how are you?
Leah Rose
50:26
Well, I know that there was stories about you hanging out with
Stevie Nicks
. That's always seemed like a cool thing.
Speaker 6
50:33
She jumped on her plane for a few days. We had a number one record, that's what it was. That was the magnetism.
And we were playing in
San Francisco
. She came. Out to the show and got up on stage with us and with
Grace Slick
to sing on
What About Love?
And after the show, she said, Gee, I kinda hate to say goodbye to you guys. Where you going next? And they said, well, we're going to
Phoenix
. And it just so happened that Stevie has another house in
Phoenix
.
So she got on her plane the next day.
And we all went out to
Phoenix
and went to her house and hung out after our show.
That was an eye-opener.
It was cool because she's everything she says.
A white witch? I mean, she's definitely got her self-image down and together. She's very smart, super creative.
Leah Rose
51:31
Did you get to sing with her at all?
Speaker 6
51:33
Just when she got up on stage with us.
Leah Rose
51:35
Okay. So when you were hanging out, you didn't sit around and sing?
Speaker 6
51:39
No, we mostly listen to each other talk.
Leah Rose
51:42
Ha ha ha.
Speaker 6
51:44
I don't know, you don't have that much to say, really.
That you don't all feel as a group because you are all going through the same experiences.
Leah Rose
51:54
How was that for you coming home in between stops on tour when you would go home and see your parents and see your older sister Lynn? Was it hard to relate to them and sort of come down from being on the road?
Speaker 6
52:07
Yeah, everyone tells you that you've changed and that you're faking it, you're not the same person. You know, like everyone's always really disappointed in you because...
You're living on this big inflated level, but that's how it gets when you're out on those big tours like that. You live in a bubble of safety and security, and you're protected from people just because, for one, you don't want to get sick.
And for two, some people can be dangerous. So you have to have protection from all of that, you know. And you get used to it, and you go home and you're kind of like, don't come near me, you know.
Leah Rose
52:47
Yeah, I imagine you need a couple weeks to kind of reformulate.
Speaker 6
52:51
Yes, indeed.
Leah Rose
52:53
Does that take a lot of mental preparation for you to be removed from your space, from your home, and know you'll be sort of a nomad?
Speaker 6
53:02
Takes a lot of relaxation out there. That's the main thing for me is...
Just to relax enough to have fun with it and not get all freaked out, you know, about not being home.
Being tired or whatever, like the things that are hard about touring, which is the travel.
Leah Rose
53:21
Are you traveling on buses mostly when you're in the
U.S.
?
Speaker 6
53:25
Yes, on buses. However, over in
Europe
, they don't do that anymore because
the European Union
is broken up. So you can't just go from country to country on a bus. You have to go through customs and all that. The bus can't leave the country, you know. So it's much more complex now over there.
Leah Rose
53:44
After taking the five-year break from touring with Heart, how did you and Nancy come back together? Why did you decide to tour now?
Speaker 6
53:54
It was time. There was no longer any reason to hold off on it. I had spent pretty much all of last year touring with
TripSitter
, and we did 100 shows in seven months.
I thought, well, the time is right. Let's see if we can bring back the big guns.
And she was into it. We had some negotiations to do. Who was going to be in the band? What type of a show we're going to do?
But we came to understandings and all that.
Leah Rose
54:25
I was looking through your
Instagram
and I saw that you have some scattered posts about meditation and quotes from
Ram Dass
and other things.
When you're talking about relaxation before the shows, what are some techniques that you use to get into a good headspace?
Speaker 6
54:43
I like to listen to music that is meditational, that's based around a drone. You know, just calming down that way, breathing. I don't want to build up I want to chill down before a show. So I walk out there completely Calm and collected.
Leah Rose
55:00
And so those are the main things is just relax into it and then when you make that transition from backstage to stepping out on stage in an arena filled with people filled with energy is it hard to make that switch for you.
Speaker 6
55:17
Well, it depends on how tired I am, I guess. If it's a good night and everything's clicking and I feel good, then it's not hard. But if something's gone on or, you know, something's wrong within the band, like someone's sick or something like that, it's a little harder to go out there with all the engines thrusting.
Leah Rose
55:39
At what point in the tour would you say is the best to see Hart? Would it be in the beginning parts of the tour, the middle, the latter end?
Speaker 6
55:50
Oh, that's impossible to say. I think it's different every tour. I don't know how this band is going to develop because it really is like a development over a tour. You go out and you're fresh out of rehearsal and everything's...
Just all perfect, and then you start to open up like a big flower. Yeah. And you figure out where it is that the audience and yourself really connect and grow with those places. So if you see us halfway through the tour, it's going to be different than the first couple nights. Yeah.
Leah Rose
56:26
Do you have the same set list every show or does the set list change?
Speaker 6
56:30
It will change.
We have a bunch of stuff worked out that we can interchange whenever we like. And sometimes we're writing, so things can just be popped in. So yeah, it'll change, definitely.
Leah Rose
56:46
Is there any sort of preview you can give us about what type of show it will be?
Speaker 6
56:50
It's going to look beautiful. It is going to be a combination.
Of heart songs, no covers, all heart songs, and a couple of new songs, a new Nancy song and a new Anne song.
Leah Rose
57:04
Tell me about the last thing you've written that you're really excited about.
Speaker 6
57:09
Oh, I just got through making an album with
TripSitter
that is called
Another Door
and came out so good. That is what I'm really proud of right now because I was the sole lyric writer on all the songs and it really taught me a lot. I learned a lot about how to do it and just when to edit myself and when not to, you know, that's so important.
Leah Rose
57:37
Well, thank you so much for taking the time to talk today.
Speaker 6
57:39
Nice to talk to you. Thank you.
Justin Richmond
57:42
Thank Thanks,
Ann Wilson
, for talking about Heart's storied history. You can see Ann and her sister Nancy on tour with Heart through December. And you can hear our favorite songs from Heart, along with their various side projects, on a playlist at BrokenRecordPodcast.com. Subscribe to our YouTube channel at youtube.com slash broken record podcast, where you can find all of our new episodes.
You can follow us on Twitter at broken record.
Broken Record
is produced and edited by
Leah Rose
with marketing help from Eric Sandler and
Jordan McMillan
. Our engineer is Ben Toledon.
Broken Record
is a production of
Pushkin Industries
.
If you love this show and others from Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content and ad-free listening for $4.99 a month. Look for Pushkin Plus on
Apple Podcast
subscriptions.
And if you like this show, please remember to share, rate, and review us on your podcast app. Our theme music is by
Kenny Beats
. I'm Justin Richmond.
Malcolm Gladwell
58:49
Every week at
Broken Record
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Speaker 11
01:00:57
You know that feeling when you walk into your home, take a deep breath, and feel new? Well, that's what it's like to use Clorox Centiva. Because Clorox Centiva smells like coconut, cleans like Clorox, and feels like energy.
It'll elevate any cleaning routine to not just clean, but also make every room smell like a tropical coconut getaway. Discover how Clorox Centiva's powerful clean and refreshing scents can transform your space. Get yours in coconut or other fabulous scents at a nearby retail store.
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🇮🇹 Made with love & passion in Italy. 🌎 Enjoyed everywhere
Build n. 1.58.4
Leah Rose
Justin Richmond
Leah Rose
Justin Richmond
Malcolm Gladwell
Jacob Goldstein
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