S4E15 Joey is kind of the worst

My interpretation is Joey and Dawson obviously have this dysfunctional co-dependency going on. She wants to be in a relationship with Pacey, but also maintain her lifelong friendship with Dawson. Except jealousy always comes between them, and she’s constantly torn. One of the later episodes of season 6 explains this perfectly: “You know, it makes sense… why it never worked out for either one of us. All we wanted was her. So much so that we destroyed our friendship... and in the end, all she ever wanted was for us to be friends again.“

So Joey lied because she was trying to rebuild her friendship with Dawson, and the two were actually getting along quite well in the episode your referencing (“Four Stories”). It felt like old times, but when Dawson asks her that question, she knows it’ll make everything awkward and uncomfortable again. She lies in the moment, and when Pacey finds out, he starts to emotionally shut down. I see a lot of comments saying Pacey had no right saying Joey broke his heart in later seasons, but I believe this is the moment he’s referencing. He even mentions it briefly in “Castaways”: “Ok, so basically what you're saying is that the only way you and I can continue being friends is if we lie to each other about our sex lives... if we take that whole giant aspect of our lives and just... pretend like it doesn't exist?” “Worked for you and Dawson.” It became like a thorn in his side, and I believe that’s why he had his epic meltdown in “Promicide.” Joey does eventually admit she made a mistake about lying, and I believe cites it as her biggest regret in season 4.

meh I don't feel bad for Dawson. It was a ridiculous question for him to ask. His response to her answer was borderline disgusting.

It unfortunately almost confirms her fear about how fragile her friendship with Dawson actually is. I don't like her decision, but considering Dawson previously said the answer would kill him. Her hesitation is at least understandable.

Gretchen probably got it the worst. Their relationship appeared so worthless to Dawson in that moment. He instantly just tossed it in for leverage without even thinking about Gretchen.

It was none of Dawson’s business in the first place and he shouldn’t have asked imo. Edit: it gives the ick

The obsession with Joey still being a virgin was creepy and territorial and I don't hold Joey's reaction against her. It should never have been about what her answer would be, rather about shutting that obsession down. No one had any business trying to get her to reveal any information about her sex life when she was clearly so uncomfortable. No guy's feelings or ego mattered.

Dawson obsessing over who Joey loses her virginity to is a huge red flag. He never should asked the question. And Gretchen should have told him that to his face.

Agreed. Once again she downplayed her and Pacey's relationship to save Dawson's feelings.

I don't like that Joey lied... but I HATE that Dawson asked. Not just once but twice!!! It's a wildly inappropriate question, and then his reactions are even worse. Her sex life is absolutely none of his business.

That he has feelings and moral judgments about her virginity status is disgusting. I think the fact that he even asked or felt entitled to that information is grounds to end the friendship permanently.

I felt the worst for Pacey and Gretchen.

I partly understand WHY Joey lied, though. And while it wasn’t cool, I don’t label her “the worst” for that. But it definitely sucked because it hurt Pacey more than I even think she recognized. And I think it was possibly the thing that broke the camels back, leading to Pacey’s ultimate implosion over many different things. He felt neglected and unappreciated and not good enough. I don’t even think Pacey himself realized that this particular lie hit him that hard. And it wasn’t even about fearing that Joey loved Dawson. More so just that Joey continued to prioritize other things that year above Pacey at a certain point. Like college and not losing Dawson as a best friend. Which honestly, both those things are fine? It’s more so how she dealt with both and then Pacey that wasn’t fine.

But she was a young woman just experiencing all of this for the first time. She was under an exorbitant amount of stress and pressure in many different ways sometimes that year. She needed to make those mistakes in order to learn and grow up. And unfortunately the breakup with Pacey was inevitable and actually a good thing. The only way for Joey and Pacey to eventually really make it as a couple was separating for awhile, before coming back together more equally mature and ready for one another. I always say they fell in love too deeply at too young an age. But that doesn’t mean they weren’t meant to be. Just somewhat unfortunate and bittersweet that they’d need time away to come back together.

I also felt really bad for Gretchen because Dawson was also young and experiencing all these feelings for the first time and unfortunately needed to make different mistakes as well to learn from and grow from. And in that process he hurt Gretchen’s feelings. (And inadvertently hurt Pacey’s feelings due to the result of the question) But hurt Gretchen’s not once, but twice.

The first time when casually mentioning to her face that Joey and Pacey sleeping together would be “the ultimate nail in the coffin of Joey and Dawson” which is such a bizarre way of still pretty bluntly saying “I’m not over my ex girlfriend.” Which is fine too, but you don’t dare someone else until you’re ready. And you certainly don’t spell it out for them to their face. It was a dumb teenage moment that unfortunately I know the feeling of way too well. I had a dumb e boyfriend in high school say basically the same thing to my face. And I remember thinking “Then why the F are we dating?!” Lol. But I was too young and inexperienced to just get up and say ok then later! And he was too young and inexperienced not to have said it so casually. But Gretchen should have then known better imo. She was 21 not 16. The second, obviously asking Joey that question.

And I felt bad for Joey that she was also put in that position by Dawson. But to give Dawson a tiny bit of credit… again, like, these are teenagers figuring shit out. If Dawson hadn’t 98 percent left Pacey and Joey alone to do their thing that year, perhaps I’d be more annoyed. But that was like his one major slip up that year. Other than asking the inappropriate question, he actually became pretty supportive of them as a couple. Giving Joey advice about their relationship more than once. Going to Pacey about his grades and trying to explain how Joey might feel about him not being honest about the situation. Giving Joey the black and white photo. Fixing the yearbook photo. Listening to Joey about her feelings on the breakup. And not flirting with her or making any moves. They only kiss in coda after Joey asks him to stay, first. However, no… he never should have asked her about her virginity. I just also understand where it came from. But he needed to keep it to himself if he hadn’t moved on yet.

Just like I forgive Pacey for his public outburst at prom, I forgive Joey and Dawson for their s4 mistakes. They’re ALL teenagers who have tons of emotions they don’t know how to properly handle yet. Joey just wanted to spare Dawson’s feelings and keep their friendship intact (especially given her codependency with him)

Dawson wasn’t over Joey and also had an unhealthy codependence with Joey. Pacey had a million insecurities and especially in senior year, then he was starting to feel that perhaps he was being more attentive in the relationship with Joey and prioritizing her over everything while Joey wasn’t doing exactly the same. It made him feel even more insecure and angry than he already even felt simply about himself.

I think I do blame Joey a little more than Pacey in the demise of their relationship. However, it really was just inevitable no matter what. Because no matter what Joey did or didn’t do, she and Pacey would have had the same problems, and broken up sooner or later. Even if it was in s5 or s6.

I feel like the male characters often get more grace and understanding than the female characters, and especially Joey. It was none of Dawson's business, and I can understand why she lied to spare his feelings, but the blame lies with him for asking in the first place. Especially since he previously implied that the answer might kill him.

And while I love Pacey, he should be more upset at Dawson asking in the first place. It put Joey in an awkward position, and even if things were strained, she didn't want to hurt Dawson, but I don't think she intended to hurt Pacey either.

Yeah, that definitely wasn't one of her finest moments. I understand she didn't want to hurt Dawson any more than she already had, but you'd think after everything that went down between them, she'd choose honesty, but I guess not. I also can't believe she didn't just decline to answer, I think I remember him telling her she didn't need to tell him if she didn't want to. So it's kind of ridiculous that he even gave her an out and she STILL lied. But obviously, the drama in the show can't happen if she's open and honest with him 😂

On the flip side though, Dawson was kind of out of line to ask her. Yes, he's allowed to have fears and curiosity but at the end of the day, they weren't together. Her sex life was none of his business, even if they're close friends. And him putting her on the spot like that wasn't fair.

Her lying was a betrayal to both guys but I think it was a bigger betrayal to Pacey. He's already insecure and worried enough about her relationship with Dawson; Joey lying about them sleeping together just proves that she's way more concerned about Dawson's feelings than Pacey's feelings.

No mate Dawson is absolutely pathetic

It wasn’t Dawson’s right to know nor OK to ask. Their whole relationship was about hurting one another.
I did feel sorry for Pacey for the way she handled it but at the end of the day - he loved Joey. I can’t say that I ever felt Dawson did.

Dawson is a whiny biotch and always will be. James Van Der Beek is awesome but Dawson Leary is a sorry P.O.S

Joey goes from the best to the worst from beginning to end

My husband and I are watching this series for the first time currently, and we just watched this episode recently. While I don’t think it’s any of Dawson’s business (I’m not surprised he asked because that’s on brand for him) I felt like Joey lied to him because she is still in love with him. She wanted Dawson to be her first. That’s why it was taking so long with Pacey, that’s why after they slept together the next day she was being weird to him, that’s why she answered Dawson when he told her she didn’t have to answer the question. I don’t know too much about what happens in the series, but i have a feeling she’s soon going to break up with Pacey, break up Dawson and Gretchen to be with Dawson.

At first I wanted her to be with Pacey because I love him and wanted him to be happy but I literally can’t stand them together now. He’s too good for her. I know he has his flaws but she isn’t even respectful to him half the time, she’s super selfish and down right mean to him at times. I almost want her to just be with Dawson because he is so insufferable, they can be miserable together. I have liked Dawson better since he’s been with Gretchen though- so I feel like he’s going to go back to his main character energy if he is with Joey.

I wish it was Pacey’s Creek haha