Subjects: Social media giants must step up to combat the spread of misinformation; the law and order response to Sydney stabbing attacks; Labor’s energy policy shambles; nuclear power; the Justice Lee judgement.
E&OE.
DAVID SPEERS:
Peter Dutton, welcome to the programme.
PETER DUTTON:
Thanks David.
DAVID SPEERS:
So is there a case do you think for tougher action against social media companies?
PETER DUTTON:
No question at all, and I think there’s a bipartisan position in relation to this. We know that the companies – and we’ve seen some of the comments from Elon Musk overnight – they see themselves above the law. The Australian law here should apply equally in the real world as it does online. As Phil was pointing out before, you would be sued for defamation and you would be taken before the courts under various acts for publishing some of that which freely flows on the internet.
There’s an age verification regime which has been recommended by the eSafety Commissioner from 2023. We think that’s something the Government should pick up straightaway as well, but the Online Safety Act has significant powers in it, we passed it when we were in government and it needs to be enforced. If the laws are inadequate and they need to be strengthened or added to, then we would support any effort from the Government.
DAVID SPEERS:
So, there’s two things I suppose here, one’s the graphic content material, the takedown order that was issued, and as you referenced there, X or Twitter has said we’re going to legally challenge that. What do you say to Twitter?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, I think there’s a red herring in a sense here, when Elon Musk says that there’s not extraterritorial reach – that is the Australian law can’t apply to other parts of the world – I’m sure that’s the case, but in terms of the content which is displayed here, or broadcast here, well the Australian law does apply and the fact is that X and Meta and other companies have a presence here. They make literally, or at least turn over billions of dollars worth of revenue in the Australian economy. I think what they’re worried about is the flow on to other markets, if Australia’s laws are upheld. That’s all the more reason, I think, for us to take a stance – it’s important for us – but for other democracies as well.
DAVID SPEERS:
And then when it comes to the misinformation and disinformation, the Government does have, well, it’s working on draft laws to try and put in place some much tougher rules for the social media companies. Where are you at on this? Are you prepared to back such laws?
PETER DUTTON:
Yeah, we are, and happy to have a look at anything the Government puts forward, as we’ve said over the last week, with the horrendous scenes that we’ve seen. There’s obviously AI tools that are available, there’s a lot of technology – because you’re talking about at scale and people who get accounts closed down, pop up under another name and pseudonym, otherwise.
As Home Affairs Minister, we tried to get all of the Five Eyes partners together, the Home Affairs Ministers to exert pressure, particularly in relation to the child protection space.
These companies have snubbed their noses at Governments in the United States, Canada, Britain, New Zealand, Australia, for many, many years, the European Union I think has had a gut full as well. They’re allowing paedophiles to distribute through their networks, images and videos of children being sexually abused, they’re impeding the investigations of the police.
So, there are many aspects here that we need to deal with. Just given the impact, the influence that it has on young, impressionable minds, I think we need to do everything we can.
DAVID SPEERS:
The misinformation laws, though, when the Government produced some draft law last year, the Coalition said they were a ‘debacle’, they were ‘Orwellian’ and so on. Have the events of the last week shifted your position?
PETER DUTTON:
Well David, we need to get the right balance. So, that is we don’t want to impinge on your ability to express a view in a democracy. It’s a key, fundamental element of who we are, that people can express their view, but they need to do it respectfully, and as I say, the same laws need to apply in the real world as they do online. It’s a matter of enforcing the laws and taking action, giving the eSafety Commissioner further powers if that’s required. But I think here we’re talking about images in particular, which are offensive and which can trigger violent reactions as we saw, earlier this week.
DAVID SPEERS:
Just given all of your concerns there about social media, you know, it’s not so long ago you were calling for a boycott of Woolworths for not selling Australia Day merchandise. I mean, these concerns around social media seem to be on a whole other scale. Are you willing to boycott social media?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, I think for parents, many of them have made a decision now that they don’t want their eight, nine, 10, 11, 12 year olds on there reading content, that they couldn’t find in books available to them at school, or on your programmes, or in newspapers. So, parents are making that decision now. But it’s tough because it’s a communications platform of choice for young kids. They’re not speaking on the telephone, they’re communicating in messages to groups and to friendship groups more broadly. They feel ostracised if they’re not a part of that information sharing, but equally, when they’re not sending messages, they’re googling or looking at images that are coming through their live feeds and that’s why there’s a special responsibility on the companies.
DAVID SPEERS:
But what about for you as a leader here? You are a regular Twitter user. Given all of your concerns, are you willing to boycott it?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, to be fair, I’m not. I can’t stand it. I can’t stand most social media…
DAVID SPEERS:
Well, you post every other day.
PETER DUTTON:
Well, certainly, my staff do and I send stuff through, if I’m being honest, but there’s – look, in terms of our own experience, we didn’t allow our kids to have access to that, and we resisted for as long as we possibly could, and I think that’s the most appropriate action here. As I say…
DAVID SPEERS:
But you’ll keep posting under your name and face?
PETER DUTTON:
We’ll keep posting, but we won’t post disinformation, or misinformation, or violent images. So used – again as Phil pointed out before – used in a responsible, sensible way, it’s fine. But people – again, I mean the actions that we saw at the church the other night, the violent response there, I suspect those individuals would have responded in that way regardless of what Meta or other companies did, because that reflects their values and their approach, and a violent reaction is how they thought they should respond to that situation.
DAVID SPEERS:
I was going to ask you about that, because you’ve given a couple of speeches lately where you’ve talked about non-citizens who incite or choose violence should have their visas cancelled and be deported. I’m not sure, you know, whether there were any non-citizens in that crowd. But turning on police, that sort of violent reaction, should that apply to them?
PETER DUTTON:
Of course. It should apply to any non-citizen because this is a fundamental point, David; if a decision maker at the Department of Home Affairs had looked at the application for that person to come to our country and been made aware of video of that nature in another part of the country where that person was born, they wouldn’t issue the visa in the first place. So, if you come here, you sign up to the conditions of the visa, that means that you conduct yourself according to Australian law, and if you don’t, you can reasonably expect to have your visa cancelled.
DAVID SPEERS:
So anyone in that mob the other night who’s a non-citizen should be booted out?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, depending on the evidence that’s available to the police or to the authorities, if people have acted outside of the law, then they should face the full impact of the law.
DAVID SPEERS:
And I want to ask you too, about the Bondi Junction attack, and the fact, as police say, the offender was targeting women. We do know this is a growing problem. The average number of women killed each week is more than one. Do you agree this is a crisis? And what should be done about it?
PETER DUTTON:
I do agree it’s a crisis. I’ve been to many scenes of domestic violence, and those images stay with you forever. The blood, the violence, the screaming children. The options available are probably greater today than they were a long time ago when I was a police officer in terms of shelter and in terms of financial support, etc. But it is getting worse.
I think there are a number of factors – and I don’t think there’s any one solution here – but again, I think social media has a role to play here. The computer games that young boys are playing where violence is a very significant part of what’s being enforced into their minds on a regular basis. I remember advice from the ASIO Director-General, a number of years ago that really stuck with me, that a young person sitting behind a computer screen could be convinced to strap a bomb on to them, without any religious belief whatsoever, if they were listening to the right videos and the right indoctrination, just over a couple of weeks. If that’s possible, then the treatment of women, what they’re seeing in some of the computer games, what they’re seeing on social media, the normalisation of all of that, it’s just the lack of manners in society more generally, because I think social media has dumbed that down – all of that is a key element to it as well.
DAVID SPEERS:
Just on what more needs to be done here about gender based violence. You’ve called for a Royal Commission into abuse of Indigenous kids. What about the killing of women?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, I’d be happy for it to extend to that as well. I suspect there would be many within the NGO sector at the moment that could point to programmes that they’ve got that if they could be scaled up, then they could have a big impact, and maybe there are some other programmes that that aren’t working as hopefully what we would want. Certainly during the course of COVID, we poured literally billions of dollars more into mental health services, support for domestic violence, because we were particularly worried about people being stuck at home in violent relationships and in circumstances where they couldn’t escape.
DAVID SPEERS:
Alright, but you would support a Royal Commission that covers…
PETER DUTTON:
Look, David, I’d be happy to support anything at all that sees the incidents reduced, that sees women and children growing up in a safer environment, and also, frankly, to point out where programmes are working – and the vast majority of good that happens in our society that we need to talk about – but, where we get it wrong, we should be addressing it and this is the number one priority.
DAVID SPEERS:
Let’s turn to your big policy move on nuclear power. Is it still the plan to announce this before the budget, or is it being pushed back?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, we’ll have more to say in due course, and I’d love to give you a scoop this morning, but there’s policy…
DAVID SPEERS:
Just the timing – is it still pre-budget?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, there’s policy work that we’re doing at the moment, and we’ll make the announcement as soon as we believe it’s, firstly, ready to go; and secondly, it’s the most opportune time for people to hear that. So…
DAVID SPEERS:
Sounds like it might have been pushed back?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, I mean, obviously the events of last week, for example, meant that part of our programme couldn’t be rolled out. That’s not unreasonable, as you would expect. News events overtake all sorts of issues. The Government had a defence policy that they wanted to spend some time on during the week, they were distracted by that as well. I think events just happen and you have to deal with that.
So, we’ll announce it in due course, but we’re doing that because I believe it’s right for our country. I want to see manufacturing grow, I want to see power bills for families reduced not increased, I want to see businesses prosper so that they can employ more staff and pay more taxes. That’s the reason that we’re doing it, and as we know, 90 per cent of baseload power comes out of the system over the next decade.
DAVID SPEERS:
So, there are a few concerns about going down the path that you’re talking about here. One is time – 90 per cent of our coal fired power stations are due to be shut in the next decade. You’re not going to be able to get a fleet of nuclear power stations up in that time. So, what would we do in the meantime, under your approach?
PETER DUTTON:
Well firstly, you’ve got state Labor Governments at the moment negotiating with coal fired power stations to extend their life because they know that the new system is not ready. I’d love to say to you that the battery is going to be the 24/7 solution when wind and solar is not working, but the battery lasts for two hours…
DAVID SPEERS:
Well, there’s gas too, and pumped hydro and various other things.
PETER DUTTON:
Absolutely, and so all of that needs to be in the mix, as nuclear does, and with the…
DAVID SPEERS:
So, you’d extend the coal fired power fleet for longer?
PETER DUTTON:
We can’t turn the old system off until the new ones ready, David. At the moment, we’re telling businesses who have huge order books to turn down their activity in an afternoon shift because the lights go out on that grid. Now, no other developed country is saying that. It means that they’re employing less people, they’re less productive for the economy. In other cases, as we know, there’s been a three fold increase in the closure of manufacturing companies in our country over the last two years. All they’re doing is going offshore and they’re manufacturing there. Greater emissions going into the environment, we lose out on the jobs and the economic productivity. Of the G20 nations, Australia is the only nation not signed up to nuclear or currently using it. So, I just think…
DAVID SPEERS:
Well, just on that, to be clear…
PETER DUTTON:
…We need to firm up…
DAVID SPEERS:
Sorry, just on that point.
PETER DUTTON:
Sure.
DAVID SPEERS:
Sorry, just on that point, that I’ve heard you make that point about the G20 – ‘we’re the only one’. Indonesia doesn’t have any nuclear power, Italy has phased out nuclear power, so has Germany. The Chancellor there says it’s a ‘dead horse’. Is it wrong to suggest we’re the only ones?
PETER DUTTON:
They’re using it – in the case of Europe, look at what France is doing. They’re providing the nuclear power to other economies. If you look at what’s happening…
DAVID SPEERS:
But we’re not the only ones without nuclear.
PETER DUTTON:
Other economies are relying on nuclear power, David. Now, we’re an island nation…
DAVID SPEERS:
Sure, but we’re not the only ones who aren’t.
PETER DUTTON:
Well, economies, Western economies, developed economies, are only operating because of a firming up power. I know that people want to pretend that wind and solar can go around the clock, it can’t. You need a baseload power, and maybe hydrogen is a solution, but it’s not prospective and it’s not going to be scalable by the account of many. Let’s hope it is, let’s hope the batteries work out, let’s hope that there’s more hydro into the system; but we need to deal with the realities, and if we don’t, we’ll see a significant collapse within our economy. That’s why you need to have 24/7 baseload power in there, which nuclear can do.
The other point in relation to the environmental impact, which is Bill Gates’ point: a 470 megawatt small modular reactor takes two hectares of land. The equivalent energy yield out of solar takes 4,000 hectares – 10,000 acres. So, let’s have just a mature discussion about it…
DAVID SPEERS:
Just on those small modular reactors though.
PETER DUTTON:
Yeah.
DAVID SPEERS:
Just to have that mature discussion.
PETER DUTTON:
Yeah.
DAVID SPEERS:
ANSTO – the Australian Nuclear Science and Technology Organisation, put out a paper just the other day. It says of small modular reactors, yeah, they’re progressing, but they’re still in their infancy and they’re relatively untested, and therefore any estimate about cost or time to construct should be considered with a high degree of uncertainty. If ANSTO’s uncertain about this, who are you talking to?
PETER DUTTON:
Well firstly, I mean ANSTO is an interesting study, because if you look at Lucas Heights and what we’ve done there with nuclear medicine and…
DAVID SPEERS:
Research reactors, yeah.
PETER DUTTON:
That’s right. It’s been operating safely in our country since the 1950s.
DAVID SPEERS:
But it’s saying small modular reactors are pretty uncertain.
PETER DUTTON:
I’ll come to that. So, they’ve been able to deal with safety concerns, they’re able to deal with waste. People, I mean, a modern hospital doesn’t operate without that nuclear medicine.
In relation to small modular reactors, have a look at what Canada’s doing, GE, Hitachi, look at what Rolls-Royce is doing, and ANSTO could have made the point in relation to hydrogen as well, which is not developed and into the system. We’re talking about net-zero by 2050, just to point out. Now, we’re going to have a lot of gas in our system…
DAVID SPEERS:
And you’re still committed to that?
PETER DUTTON:
Of course we are, and I believe that we’re the only Party with a credible pathway to net-zero by 2050, because the Government’s policy relies on 28,000km of poles and wires being erected, their policy is about a $1.2 trillion spend and 28,000 kilometres, to put it into perspective…
DAVID SPEERS:
So just on that, on this big renewables bit…
PETER DUTTON:
…Is equal to the coastline of the whole of Australia.
DAVID SPEERS:
Just on that renewables spend, do you want energy companies to keep investing in big renewable projects, or do you side with your National’s colleague David Littleproud, who wants a halt?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, we have an enormous amount of renewables in the system at the moment because of the last nine years of a Coalition Government. We incentivised, and we’ve put money into research, and we’re more than happy to have renewables in the system. I want nuclear and other firming powers to be able to firm up the renewables in the system…
DAVID SPEERS:
But do you want more renewable investment was the question?
PETER DUTTON:
I’m more than happy to have renewable investment, but there needs to be social licence with communities. There’s no sense a development at Barangaroo sprouting that they’ve got a net-zero site, come and have a great lifestyle there, have your wine fridges and everything else, and they’re net-zero because they’ve bought thousands of hectares of productive land in western New South Wales, and the local community there that doesn’t support it. So, there’s a moral argument to part of this as well. In the end, as I say, we need to be mindful of our environmental impact. The wind turbines don’t have any social licence off the Hunter Coast, where they are 260 metres out of the water.
DAVID SPEERS:
Neither side of politics in Queensland wants nuclear power in your home state. LNP Leader, David Crisafulli says he doesn’t support your plan. He instead has backed the Labor Government’s ambitious target to reduce emissions by 75 per cent by 2035. Sounds like the LNP’s a bit all over the shop?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, you can point to Premier Malinauskas in South Australia, who’s strongly in support of nuclear power.
DAVID SPEERS:
Well, Premier Malinauskas – just given you mentioned him – he’s told this programme in Australia nuclear power would be ridiculously expensive. I wouldn’t work with anyone who is going to make power more expensive. But just back on Queensland, what do you say to David Crisafulli?
PETER DUTTON:
Well firstly, I hope that David Crisafulli gets elected in October for the state of Queensland, before we go broke – first point. Second point is I think he’ll make a great Premier because I think he’s measured and he’s looked at all of the policies. He’s made a decision in relation to the bill that’s gone before the Queensland Parliament. That’s an issue for David and his colleagues. We’ve been clear about our target, emission reductions, that we’ve signed up to.
But do I think that jurisdictions, including New South Wales, Queensland, WA, South Australia, would sign on to a new energy system which can deliver cheaper power with nuclear, as is the case in Ontario and elsewhere around the world? Yes, I do. And I think as this discussion matures, as we know, we’ve got in South Australia at Osborne, in WA at Henderson nuclear reactors that will be tied up at the dock there, in the form of the new submarines, for decades to come. They’re done in a safe way, and it’s that same technology which is transferring into the civil space as well.
DAVID SPEERS:
Just a final issue, a Federal Court Judge has of course found Brittany Higgins was raped by Bruce Lehrmann at Parliament House, but claims of a political cover up were dismissed. Should Brittany Higgins be allowed to keep her damages payout, do you think?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, a couple of points. Firstly, I thought Brittany put out a gracious statement last night. Secondly, I don’t believe any workplace should be unsafe for women, or for men, for that matter, and there are a lot of changes that have taken place at Parliament House, which is a good thing.
In relation to the payout, I don’t think the issue is on Brittany’s side here. I think Katy Gallagher and the others within the Parliament, within the Ministry who very quickly settled this matter, which is again, a matter that Justice Lee reflected on in his judgement…
DAVID SPEERS:
Well, there was a year of negotiation over that settlement, according to documents.
PETER DUTTON:
Again, I think without precedent, and I think that’s a part of – anyway Justice Lee can speak for himself.
DAVID SPEERS:
Should this payment stand, though?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, I think if there are matters that are of concern, then they should be looked at. But I don’t think the problem in relation to the payout is on Brittany’s side, I think it’s on the Government’s side, and I think others have pointed that out.
If there’s an inappropriateness to the political opportunism that Katy Gallagher and others tried to eke out of an alleged sexual assault, then firstly, I think that reflects poorly on Katy Gallagher, but also on the Government as well.
DAVID SPEERS:
Alright. Well look, you also said Linda Reynolds deserves a full apology.
PETER DUTTON:
Yes.
DAVID SPEERS:
Should Brittany Higgins be offering a more fulsome apology? And should she be paying damages to Linda Reynolds?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, that’s a matter for the court, or it’s a matter for the parties. Again, I note the comments that Brittany’s made overnight in relation to Linda Reynolds and Fiona Brown as well, and I think they’re very gracious.
DAVID SPEERS:
Alright. Opposition Leader, Peter Dutton, thanks for joining us.
PETER DUTTON:
Thanks David. Thank you.
[ends]