Discussing NXIVM, the New York Capital Region-based group that sold expensive seminars of dubious value. The group was founded by so-called "Vanguard" Keith Raniere. The organization is commonly called a "cult," and has been termed a "racketeering enterprise" by the U.S. government. Keith Raniere is today a convicted felon serving a 120-year sentence.
Questions and Discussions
Keith wanted to isolate members from the outside world as much as possible, so if a person was not already wealthy, how would they be able to afford it? Or did certain members not need to keep paying after a while if they were considered "valuable"?
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My impression was that because of all the crazy fees, a lot of them paid for classes with work for NXVIM. And then when it became too hard to take endless classes AND do a bunch of work for NXVIM AND have a real job, they would quit their real jobs and work for NXVIM full time.
I've heard on several occasions that recruiters they used to give credit –it sounds a lot like the proverbial "free introductory offer."
But part of the premise of your question ("if a person was not already wealthy") doesn't quite work out –the key demographic was the affluent. They were basically targeted. It was all the better if they were dynastic wealth and had an inferiority complex that could be exploited.
Yeah, from what I understand it was a bit like Scientology; rich people got the sashes and ran their own classes as coaches, while poor people had to work manual labor to pay off their sessions.
Scientology has a famous department that essentially commits credit card fraud for people in order to pay for classes. Wouldn’t be surprised if NXIVM did the same
This. The system that perpetuates privilege has zero concern with who anybody is “deep down” or what it all means. It can’t, we’re talking about passing on the majority of the world’s power and wealth to people who are no more deserving than anyone else.
It’s a dirty business, harder if you have a temperament that wires you for introspection and concern about the big picture.
By way of example, Mark breathlessly recounts how he used what he learned to complete a screenplay he’d been struggling with in three weeks. “And it was good!”
So say Joe accountant takes these classes and finishes his screenplay. Who is going to show it to? His agent/producer friend?
Completing a screen play is like completing high school. So what?
Sarah Edmonson was just talking about this on the ‘the deep’ podcast. She said they paid by working trainings.
Actors - you can make a couple thousand bucks with each gig. Some gigs are only a few hours a or a few days long. Like if you get a decent commercial spot you could get +$25,000 for 2 days of work. I've got a friend that lives in Utah and flies out to LA 2-4 times a year for a week at a time and he earns enough money to not have to work back in Utah the rest of the year.
Trust Fund Kids - Generational wealth definitely fueled a lot of NXIVM. 18-30 year olds without a clear path squandered their families' money a la the Bronson sisters or the Oxenburg's.
Man, that sounds amazing
Eh. Just imagine all the time you spend working now in your normal job has to be spent finding work. That’s acting.
Yes. No career stability. You might get one great gig and never work again. But you spend countless hours, gas, energy running around across town from one audition to the next.
Patrice O'Neal - The Hollywood Beast (Part 1)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjIkE8jT2DY
NXVIM was not for poor people. They specifically targeted those who already had money (and therefore time) and ego management problems.
I’ve wondered that myself. Also considering so many of the members had apartments in Albany for when they were there.
I think Claire and her sister owned a lot of those properties and funded a lot of stuff, including salaries for many of these people. Wonder if they are still helping some of diehard supporters economically survive.
I imagine many went into debt thinking they’d gain skills to pay it off
Scientology had the same exact scam. Free motivated salesmen who believe the lie.
I don't think they were all isolated from the outside world. A lot of the NXIVM members seemed to have jobs and career aspirations and used NXIVM as a way to try and improve themselves (kind of like a self help court or a wealth seminar). The MLM structure of NXIVM required a lot of outside money to steadily come in so that the people at the top could devote more and more of their time to Raniere. Like a lot of cults some members probably did pay for their involvement through service if they really couldn't earn enough from a regular job, but I don't think Raniere and his team were actively spurning revenue from people who weren't willing or able to quit their job.
The people who took classes and then left provided the veneer of respectability needed to allow the core group to flourish. The lucky souls who never pursued coaching provided a lot of capital and credibility.
They paid through working at NXIVM and the money they made would go toward paying their classes. Sarah Edmundson who went to the FBI, who was upper ranking and ran her own program in Toronto, was still paying for classes. Also, the more people you recruited, the money they spent on classes also went toward your classes.
NXIVM just copied Scientology which in turn copied other cults. In this case the debt model of it. Expensive classes dented to you account that you pay off by doing work for NXIVM. But because a “community” you will just have to fit it in with all the required activities we expect you to participate in. Result is debt always goes up, you time without your awareness because singularly occupied by the cult.