Mars on the left, earth on the right. Same exact natural process.
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Real MVP
It certainly appears that there was once surface water on Mars. I hope that someday, humans can either get up there or send enough rovers to really explore and see if there are any fossils in those rocks. It wouldn't surprise me at all if there were microfossils. The probes that have been there have only explored a miniscule fraction of the surface. Who knows what is actually there. Especially if you drill down 1000 meters.
That's why there's a drilling engineer in the latest class of NASA astronauts :)
It’s quicker to teach drillers to become astronauts than to teach astronauts to become drillers
Whoever wrote that line has not met drillers
Ben Affleck and Bruce Willis were fast learners
I'm talking out my ass here but wouldn't it make more sense to train a driller to be an astronaut because I'm sure there are tons of little intricacies in drilling that experience is far more valuable. Like if a mission to Mars to drill holes in the surface you'd want someone who is experienced as he'll because if you fuck up and break something it's not like you can next day amazon ship some stuff. 5 astronauts trained to be mediocre drillers probably dosnt equate to one very experienced one. So just as the driller dosnt need to be an extreme expert in astronaut shit, he just needs the basics not kill himself and everyone else and then when it's drill time, he's up.
I really hate when people misremember this quote and shit on it. It's not that "it's quicker to turn drillers into astronauts than astronauts into drillers" the whole pountnof the line and set up was that Bruce Willis' character invented the drill head they were using and he and his team were the only ones capable of maintaining it on the fly. It was literally faster to teach them to be astronauts than it would have been to teach an astronaut the nuances of that drill head and it's interactions with different minerals...
As always, shoutout to Ben Affleck’s Armageddon commentary
Do they need an Engineering Geologist.... my hand is raised
They already have Randy Marsh and Lorde
Just be careful with that space dementia my guy, it’s dangerous
Is he bringing his smoking hot daughter and her screw-up boyfriend with him? What about Steve Buscemi?
FOR ROCK AND STONE!
Liquid, does it have to be water?
Considering that mars has water-ice caps and that methane lakes would be detectable, I believe that water would be a fair assumption
One of the current idea is that deep sea hydrothermal vents produced the first RNA then cells on earth. If that's the case, and so far we don't see any oceans on mars, it'd be unlikely to find any life there. Edit 2: This extends to all other current existing theories, we don't see any of the other proposed process having occured on mars, so just by saying water = maybe life is quite a big jump.
Edit: About the n=1 thing, we go by what we know to make the MOST probable educated guesses, the goal is not to generalize, but to not spend unnecessary resources to look for life on every rock in the universe. Of course if we become a galactic empire that's what we can do for fun. Hence we've been looking at planets with water to look for life, and not some random planets that rain acids and have methane lakes.
Your entire argument hinges on this, and it's wrong.
https://astrobiology.nasa.gov/news/water-on-mars-the-story-so-far/
https://www.nasa.gov/news-release/nasa-research-suggests-mars-once-had-more-water-than-earths-arctic-ocean/
with n=1, it’s impossible to generalize how life can get started. I like the speculating/educated guessing and it produces good insights, but we are not anywhere near understanding the origin of life wel enough to know for sure that hydrothermal vents are an essential requirement (or even played a role at all)
Mars oceans evaporated and dissipated into space when it lost its atmosphere after leaving the habitable zone
As you mentioned, hydrothermal vents are only one idea. There are many others:
Primordial Soup Theory: Proposed in the 1920s by Alexander Oparin and J.B.S. Haldane, this theory suggests that life began in a "primordial soup" of organic molecules in water. Energy sources such as lightning or ultraviolet light could have triggered chemical reactions that led to the formation of more complex molecules, eventually leading to the first living cells.
Hydrothermal Vent Theory: Some scientists believe that life may have begun at hydrothermal vents on the ocean floor, where hot, mineral-rich water spews from the Earth's crust. These vents could provide the right conditions of heat and chemistry to spur the formation of complex organic molecules.
Panspermia: This hypothesis suggests that life did not originate on Earth at all but was brought here from elsewhere in space, possibly through meteorites or comets. This theory doesn't explain how life began in the universe but suggests that life on Earth may have originated through the introduction of life forms from other parts of the universe.
RNA World Hypothesis: This theory posits that before DNA and proteins were involved in the genetic code, there was RNA. RNA, capable of both storing genetic information and catalyzing chemical reactions, could have formed the basis for life and evolved into the more complex DNA-based life forms we see today.
Iron-Sulfur World Theory: Proposed by Günter Wächtershäuser, this theory suggests that life began on the surface of iron and nickel sulfide minerals found near hydrothermal vents. The theory argues that these surfaces could have catalyzed the first organic reactions, leading to life.
Electric Spark Hypothesis: Building upon the primordial soup theory, the famous Miller-Urey experiment in 1953 demonstrated that electrical sparks used to simulate lightning in a mixture of gases that were thought to be present on early Earth could produce amino acids, which are the building blocks of proteins.
Its life, Jim, just not as we know it. Squidgy thing attaches to your face
Even if we assume the premise, life needs deep sea thermal vents to start, obviously life can expand its habitat beyond.
Life on Earth exists deep underground in caves, or even in parched deserts. Both environments that exist on Mars now.
Life on Mars might have gone extinct, or never even existed, but the conclusion of no currently existing oceans means no life is flawed on its face.
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Given the distance between Mars and the sun, the only real candidate for the liquid is water. Sure liquid methane exists on Titan but not only is Titan colder, it also has a much higher pressure which allows for it to sustain liquid methane.
For Mars to sustain liquid methane it would need to be far colder or have a far higher pressure (or both) but if we increase the pressure on the surface of Mars (by increasing the thickness of the atmosphere) it will increase the temperature because the atmosphere will trap more heat. This is to say that liquid methane can’t exist on the surface of Mars and almost certainly never did even in a past with an extraordinarily thick atmosphere.
Out of all the other possible liquids that could exist to cause these formations they either are similar to the methane case or don’t occur naturally in high enough quantities to produces large enough bodies of liquid to cause this level of erosion. Water is really the only option since it could realistically exist on the surface with higher pressure and there is already evidence of water being there in the form of ice.
Couldn't Mars be a lot colder if it had a much higher albedo? Seems that such a change would be unlikely but could theoretically be a reason for at least some liquid methane on Mars.
To be clear I am no expert in how atmosphere affects the albedo of a planet but yes, if Mars had a higher albedo it would be cooler. However, in order for liquid methane to exist with Mars’s current atmosphere it would need to be really cold, colder than it could reach with realistic albedo levels. For context, under normal Earth atmospheric pressure methane must be about -161°C and with an atmosphere 100 times thinner on Mars, the necessary temperature would be far lower on the Martian surface.
If Mars had an atmosphere exerting a similar pressure to what we experience on Earth then the albedo would need to be near the max, surpassing even Venus (the planet with the highest known albedo at 0.7) to reflect enough light to remain cold enough. This is of course ignoring the fact that Mars can’t sustain an atmosphere.
If we then go to the extreme and give it an atmosphere like Venus then maybe it would be able to reflect enough light and have a high enough pressure to sustain liquid methane, the problem here however is that Mars is likely too small and its gravitational pull would be too weak to have an atmosphere that thick. Also, as stated in the previous paragraph, this is ignoring the fact that Mars can’t sustain an atmosphere.
So simply put, with the current atmosphere I don’t think any level of realistic albedo (i.e. not 100% reflection) could get Mars cold enough for liquid methane and if we imagine a thicker atmosphere that comes with its own issues.
This however, isn’t to say that a planet orbiting where Mars orbits couldn’t have liquid methane. Simply that a planet like that would be very different to Mars at any point in its history.
How would one increase the atmosphere?
Sorry, I didn’t mean to say we should increase the atmosphere. When I said “but if we increase the pressure on the surface of Mars (by increasing the thickness of the atmosphere)” I was trying to say if we imagine a Mars with a thicker atmosphere.
That being said, to answer your question, I don’t think we can. Not now with current technology at least and probably not even a while into the future either. To my knowledge out only hope would be to release a large store of subsurface gas (which I am not even sure if there is such a thing that exists).
Thing is, even if we could create/thicken the atmosphere there is no reason it wouldn’t just be lost in the same way Mars’s past atmosphere was lost which was from the solar winds. Without an active magnetosphere the atmosphere of a planet is blown away so when Mars lost its magnetosphere the once thick atmosphere it had was quickly lost and since Mars still doesn’t and won’t regain a prevalent magnetosphere, any atmosphere it could gain will just be lost. There are some frankly outlandish ideas to protect Mars from solar winds but currently those ideas are so far from realistic they aren’t really worth discussing
Oh there are several options.
Humans could potentially increase the thickness of Mars' atmosphere, through several theoretical methods:
Introducing greenhouse gases (e.g. fluorinated compounds) would likely raise the temperature of Mars, leading to the release of CO2 from the polar ice caps and the regolith. And as a result thicken the atmosphere
Large mirrors in orbit around Mars or on the surface could be used to focus sunlight on the ice caps, and thereby sublimating CO2 directly into the atmosphere. Which would increase atmospheric pressure
Artificial magnetic fields could be established to protect the atmosphere from solar wind.( which currently strip away lighter molecules and prevent the atmosphere from thickening).
Of course all of the above has its own challenges and would require substantial resources. But it’s possible, technically at least
Water is one of the most common compounds out there for one thing. Certainly something like methane would be very unexpected for a planet with this distance to the sun, right?
Afaik people studying these rocks have noted rock types which form in the presence of water, so it's the most obvious explanation I guess
Also, just here to say there's lot more wind-erosion on Mars today than water, right?
As I understand, some think that the cooling of the core led to the stripping away of most of the atmosphere, and the ability to sustain surface water?
Kind of. The stripping of the atmosphere is related to the core but not because of cooling. The magnetosphere is what protects a planet’s atmosphere from solar winds, without the magnetosphere the solar winds strip away the atmosphere.
This part I am not certain of but I think this is how it works. The magnetosphere is produced as a result of convection in the core of a planet, this is due to the movement of charged elements (mostly iron). The core can only convect if there is a sufficient heat difference between 2 regions (in this case the inner and outer core). If the temperature difference is too small then convection stops which then stops the production of a magnetosphere as a byproduct. This is to say that some point in the past the core of Mars became a more uniform temperature and stopped convecting which removed the magnetosphere which was protecting the atmosphere and thus the atmosphere was removed.
Now, you may ask why this hasn’t happened to Earth. This is because the core of Mars is likely entirely liquid, which is an issue because liquid can convect far easier than solid can, so the liquid core of Mars was able to quickly (on a planetary level) balance the temperature of the core. Earth on the other hand has a solid inner core and liquid outer core, the solid inner core retains temperature as it is harder to convect so the necessary temperature difference can be sustained for much longer.
Just like total recall
It could have been Champagne, undoubtably.
Ideally if it has different range from solar system, u could say that, but Mars has nearly the same temperatures as Earth, maybe a bit more fluctuating but yes, so liquid water most probably would have been on the surface of Mars, atleast more than probability of a redditor getting a girlfriend
I honestly hope (I doubt I will) I live long enough to see the day when we regularly visit other planets like Venus and mars not like commercial flights back and forth but like we have people exploring them
Nobody is going to Venus. Mercury and the moons of Saturn and Jupiter would be more likely for human visitors. Venus is very inhospitable.
yeah the surface temperature is 867 fahrenheit lol
Surface pressure is about the same as being a km underwater.
From Wikipedia: Experimental ambient pressure dive maximum (Maximum ambient pressure a human has survived)[8] 54 atm Surface of Venus 92 atm [9] 1 km depth in seawater 101 atm
Venus is not getting any visitors.
That place has so much surface pressure it crushes rovers.
And it’s hotter than Mercury, with clouds of sulphuric acid. I think the longest that a rover has survived on the surface was 2hrs. Yeh, I’ll give that one a miss.
There is little point in "exploring" them in person, so a human presence would probably have to be part of a base installation with the goal of setting up resource extraction or manufacturing facilities.
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You don’t need humans to cross all of that off that list. Humans are soft and vulnerable. Better robots are the better investment.
They will probly build a wall to keep us out
Plot twist earth was barren and humans took water, animals and everything else to earth from mars because mars was getting too hot.
Humans wiped out the dinosaurs to make room for us when it was needed
Can't fool me. That's Tatooine in both pictures
I wish all that sand would just go somewhere else
But sand gets everywhere though.
Just use the force, duh.
That's mars sky?
Yes. Mars atmosphere is very thin comparing to Earth. It can be blueish during sunset to yellow-brown during day.
But it's neither of those in the picture
The camera exposure is focused on the rocks, it happens here on earth too, if you take a picture against the sky it is often grey.
'here on earth too'
Isn't it mind-blowing that we have actual cameras on other planets, so we slowly have to specify what planet we are referring to? Sure, we have this since a while, but I feel like not enough people are amazed by such an achievement
The sun is still white...
It’s more about the composition of the atmosphere isn’t it?
Here are some more pics of Mars sky, and it's clouds.
https://i.imgur.com/VgW6EwW.jpeg
https://i.imgur.com/3nIZEF5.jpeg
https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/nasas-curiosity-rover-captures-shining-clouds-on-mars https://phys.org/news/2017-03-curiosity-captures-gravity-clouds-mars.html
There are some great timelapse gifs of the Mars sky with the clouds moving on the JPL link.
Sometimes I stop and look at these pictures and have to stop and think "these are pictures taken by us, on another fricken planet using a robot that we sent there on a rocket"
When you think about it, that's fucking insane and we totally take it for granted. Imagine showing this to someone like Newton, Copernicus or Gallielo. It'd blow their minds.
This is going to be unscientific in terms of being able to use facts, BUT, not only that, these rockets were fired from a planet travelling and spinning at considerable speed unto another planet really far away travelling and spinning at considerable speed.
I'd imagine it would be like being spun really fast on kids playground roundabout and being able to throw a marble at another kids spinning roundabout 100s of miles away lol
That's how it is in my head.
Oh wait, and these the two round abouts are actually moving around the playground too 😂
The gravity assists are some wild calculations. Not only do you have to hit the target planet, you have to hit one or more other planets near perfectly. Sometimes the same planet several times. And it takes years of travel.
Bottom of that page has gifs and links to notable trajectories.
When you have few/no dynamic elements in the system (like air), it actually becomes much “easier” (but still by no means EASY) to send a probe like that.
The most miraculous thing really was getting it to land on the planet without breaking.
I had a panorama of the Mars desert as my wallpaper for ages. When my mother first saw it, she said, "What is that? It's pretty boring." I told her, "That is a picture taken on Mars. It is the exact opposite of boring." To her credit, she got it once I told her what it was.
I mean, it is a boring image without the context
A better one is we were making houses out of mud and now we have WiFi.
Imagine what well know, * T O M O R R O W . *
Reminds me if that quote from men in black:
"A thousand years ago, everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, they knew the Earth was flat. Fifteen minutes ago, you knew that people were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow."
How the hell have I missed Mars having clouds?
To be fair, you've never visited.
They are particularly thin and not always obvious from the ground.
Images that include them are often contrast-stretched to bring out the features.
Can someone explain like I'm 5.. Isn't clouds made up of water and/or ice particles? Doesn't clouds on Mars also mean we have found water on Mars?
We know that Mars has water since 60s. It even has permanent polar water ice caps - if they to melt, Mars will be covered by 35m / 115 ft deep ocean.