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Map of the dark world [Updated]
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Pretty cool map explanation.
This whole room/ending is very interesting. It’s all set up in a way which makes it look like Kris and Susie skipped school and spent the entire day playing in that unused classroom.
Yet it does seem like something did actually happen though, since they both do seem to remember it.
But I am wondering what exactly caused it all to get set up like that though. What force set up the room like that and how did they appear there?
Edit: I could be to create some ambiguity over the events. Did Kris and Susie get sucked into the dark world or did they just goof off for the entire day playing some sort tabletop campaign or something.
Of course given Susie’s reaction (Kris doesn’t really react that much at anything really, except sometimes turning* toward the screen as if to say “really?”) does suggest that if actually happened.
It could be a sort of magic thing. Given that both of them look different in the dark world it could be that their actual bodies weren’t transported but just their spirits/souls or something. And this is what happened with their bodies in the ‘real world’.
Edit: changed tiring to turning.
The thing is , if it was some sort of tabletop campaign , they clearly did NOT initiated it on their own.
Remember for the main part of the game susie is a violent selfish bully, she would clearly not start playing some sort of friendly game with someone she was ready to (or pretending to ) chomp their face 5 min ago.
unless DRUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGS , there was definitively something (or someone?) who started all of this with the closet.
Good Dammit Suzie i told you that chalk was spiked
The real Deltarune theory: Alphys knew Susie was eating all the chalk so she spiked it with acid to give Susie a bad trip and teach her a lesson.
And by threatening kris, she accidentally exposed him as well to her really bad trip.
Agreed. I do think there so definitely more to this than meets the eye.
Maybe chalk is a drug to Susie?
DARKNESS is one hell of a drug.
Dark, Darker, Yet Darker!
i dont know just cus your an ass doesent mean you cant be into tabletop, in fact the three heros all seem like new table top players Ralseis a new roleplayer, already having a big long backstory in mind and just kind of wanting to tell people rather then letting it be revealed naturally Suzie trys to play it like a videogame, mostly focusing on combat with little regard for roleplay, what little roleplay she trys to do is to be the edgy bad guy not realising that really doesent work with the narrative Kris is actually kind of good at the game and come up with strategy's for the others but is really quite and bad at the socialising part(the fact they never have actual dialog could be interpreted as them having a hard time getting into character, and so instead of say doing a a character voice and saying "hey i think you look cute with the ribbon" they just say "i tell ralsei he looks cute" Lancers probobly a representative of a new gm, hence having some trouble making an intimidating bad guy(which by the end they just rolled with and made lancer a good boy and put what they learned into the spade king instead
You completly missed my point.
I never said susie would never do a tabletop.
It's just unlikely she'll suddently start playing of her own some friendly games with someone she threatened to make severe injuries for life minutes ago.
And contrary to undertale, kris is extremly neutral, it was frisk who was alway trying to make friends from ennemies. So that's probably not an initiative from Kris neither.
And if there was a GM, that would be Ralsei , not Lancer.
After all Ralsei is the one who is :
- Telling them the story.
- Calling the gank heroes of a team.
- Explaining how fight works.
- Alway trying to push the story forward.
- Trying to change susie ruthless choices.
And given the setting, Lancer would be an NPC, a poorly written one they rolled with it as you described.
Hey, ballom29, just a quick heads-up:
completly is actually spelled completely. You can remember it by ends with -ely.
Have a nice day!
The parent commenter can reply with 'delete' to delete this comment.
shes also a middleschooler, they havent quite learned being mean to someone and being friends are suppose to be mutually exclusive
also none of that really means they cant be a pc, pcs get invested in the story to(and in fact as someone who plays a very ruthless character can confirm my teammates want me to chill, at least in character) except maybe explaining the fight but that could also easily be they just have a better understanding of the rules and help explain it to there team mates(again something i have done)
ya hes an npc but he would be controlled by the gm
I'm gonna have to stop you right there sir
Seam's description of lightners as godlike beings that abandoned the dark world long ago makes sense from the perspective of a bunch of toys left in an unused classroom.
If the game had been just Kris on the adventure, I might believe that this was a clear cut case of a kid practicing some escapism through their imagination, but Suzie being along for the ride makes that very unlikely given her attitude.
Maybe more telling than Suzie and her reaction to their adventure is the egg. The fact that you can bring the egg back with you from the dark world strongly implies that it was real.
What egg?
Rarely when leaving through the left of the room where you have to run around to see the tree in the dark you'll wind up in a secret area that just has a tree. Someone hidden behind the tree will give you an egg. It shows up in your key items and can be 'used' with no effect. You can place it in Asgore's refrigerator at the end of the game where it will be duplicated for some reason.
And it stays between playthroughs!
I just have to wonder what exactly save file 9 (the ones you see are save files 0-2) does and does not keep track of. Before you beat the game it appears to be a copy of your most recent save.
However, I noticed something interesting after starting a genocide run (before beating the game) on save file 1 and keeping a close eye on the save directory. I had saved before our introduction to Ralzei and the first Lancer fight. I then attacked Lancer every turn, went through the rest of the cutscene, and went back to the save point. I then had a brain fart and quit the game without saving. As soon as I realized this I double checked the timestamps on the save files. Save file 1 was last modified at 4:58 PM but save file 9 was last modified at 5:04 PM. So, whatever save file 9 does, quitting without saving still modifies it.
(He offers you a nice egg in this trying time.)
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Yeah. Where's the freaking janitor?
I think the Universes in which Undertale and Deltarune take place (i still believe they are the same canon regardless of what that Letter by toby said, just look at the hints all over both games) are somehow colliding, and the distinctions between Fantasy (fictional universes) and Reality are slowly disintegrating, explaining the "Reality-like" Feeling of the made up world. I think it would be a fitting theme for a Toby Fox-Game too
That is a very interesting theory. I have been assuming there were some time shenanigans going on which is why everything is the way it is but your theory does seem pretty likely and could even go along with my theory.
So what you mean is that something like that the whole adventure in the dark world was a tabletop campaign but due to the universes colliding and reality and fansfuinf colliding it became both real and fake at the same time?
Yeah, I'd say so. Universes and Timelines colliding also is the reason for Undertale characters partially remembering past playthroughs, and Chara being able to traverse them (Soulless Pacifist Run! Maybe Deltarune-ending?), atleast that would make sense to me. Sans may also be able to do so, or atleast have a strong memory of other timelines (I think the blueprint with the 3 smiling persons on it are our 3 heroes, who will be associated with Sans in Deltarune's next episodes, and the Sans from the Undertale-Universe somehow has the memories of Deltarune-Sans [maybe they're the same?]). Gaster may be the one trying to hold them together, he is also shown to traverse timelines (I'm almost certain he's the one talking to you in the survey at gamestart, and in Undertale he of course existed as the former royal scientist, the universes colliding could also have something to do with him researching determination and vanishing to be forgotten, except by the Gaster followers, who seem to actually be from Deltarune aswell). All of this is pure speculation, but I think that "Universes/Reality+Fiction colliding" may be a good explanation for what happens in Undertale and in Deltarune, and it would certainly be a cool plotidea to deal with in the future.
I'm starting to lean towards it being a prequel and the events of Undertale are the timeline having been distorted and shifted beyond recognition. The local "Flower King" becomes a real King. His ex, a motherly schoolteacher, becomes a self-exiled ex-Queen who always felt she could be a teacher. The Delta Rune carries over into the new timeline as a mysterious symbol people don't know the origin of. The tiny population of monsters is forced underground. The majority of the characters exist far into the future rather than in and around 201X, with the exception of the Dreemurrs, the human, and Gershon.
That doesn't explain a damn thing about Sans though. He has a clear relation to Gaster. But how does he have Grillby's if he didn't come directly from the Undertale universe. Why did he wink to imply he knows you? Did he travel from the Undertale universe to this one to continue his fight against/search for The Anomaly?
You think maybe this could happen for real?
You know. Our world and fictional universes colliding.
Idk. Not if you're thinking scientifically, but honestly who could know. It's too absurd to actually think about though, outside of fiction, that is.
Maybe prepare yourself for the possibility...
When simulations become so detailed as to be indistinguishable from reality, what would be the difference?
Why assume we aren’t fictional in the first place?
There's not a few theories out there that question this.
It could give weight to the Sans is a Darkner theory. His door is initially a black room that goes on infinitely til you realize you're on a treadmill. Maybe coming back from the darkworld always puts you in a state to explain away what you experienced there.
Their souls...
If that's true, then Kris's color(especially his scarf/cape) is VERY suspect.
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You can only go back to sleep once you've completed the chapter. The option doesn't appear until you've been there and back at least once. That said... yeah, it's not a random choice to implement the skipping option as going to sleep. The Dark World clearly is real, as proven by the Egg if nothing else, but it's also, to some extent... not real. (It's also, according to my current headache, confusing.)
Honestly i view it more akin to a dream world that they wound up in after going unconscious.
... Where is the black knight ? Is it possible they were using K.Round as replacement for the black knight ? Then who gave the king his powers ?
This room might have a hidden spoiler... OR... it could be a deliberate sidetrack.
Awesome.
My guess is the turtle drawing from the church dude
Bold and brash is the knight??
Would be quite the twist
I'm still not sure why you can only save in the dark world - is there a lore reason for this, or is it just for gameplay?
in addition to that, the menu systems are completely different between the dark world and the light world, as well
In general, the Light World is far less detailed than the Dark World, and would fit right in next to Undertale art-wise
It might be a strange suggestion, but I think maybe it’s because in the dark world you are kind of being watched by Gaster (when you die I’m fairly sure he’s the one who talks to you), and so I think that he actually could be the one allowing you to save. After all, it is never actually mentioned that Kris has Determination at all (which would mean he can’t save.) (Kris also hasn’t really shown himself to be particularly determined.) The save points also look different in the Dark world than they did in Undertale (proof that they are perhaps fakes/made?).
Also I think it’s gotta be a lore reason, since when you get your first save, the save you overwrite is labeled Kris, but the one you save onto uses your own name that you inputted at the start. That’s pretty strange and suspicious.
the save points in undertale spawn from your determination. if theres one thing i noticed, all the save points in the dark world state that they 'shine within you' so i guess it spawns from your prophesized lightner role and can only be utilized/seen in the dark
Actually, I noticed that they all say 'The power of (blank) shines within you'
Edit: or 'you are filled with the power of'
Kris actually implies that they can save outside of the dark world, and have before. When you touch the first savepoint, the narrator says Kris has seen them before and knows how to use them.
That could just mean we know them from Undertale though
But the first time you save, you overwrite one of Kris's
To make you able to fight Jevil.
The whole purpose of the dark world is to set the stage for Jevil.
Very nicely done!
The odd element out in all this, to an extent, seems to be Ralsei.
A few people have pointed out he seems almost like a kind of “DM” for DND. That is: he exposits the quest and story, guides and teaches the player, and can’t help himself from railroading or telling players how they ought to play. He really wants the players to get that golden ending and thus tries to stop you from fighting, but in the end just wants everyone to have fun (just to complete the analogy, Susie is the player who doesn’t care about the story and just wants to fight everything and harvest gold and exp. Kris is whatever type of player you play him as).
This makes me suspicious of his true nature. He takes the form and name Ralsei, which are both clearly are a knock off of Kris’ older brother. He wants the players, and Kris in particular, to like him. He states that Darkners’ purpose is to serve Lightners, as game NPCs serve the game players. This plays out in the Dark World itself. The King rebels against the idea of serving the Lightners without comprehending the nature of the world; Jevil however, truly understands: that he is nothing but a fictional character created to be a player in this game, and it has both driven him mad and made him insanely powerful. Seam hasn’t fully understood the truth, but suspects enough.
Theory:
Ralsei is actually a lonely sort of entity that created a world for Kris and Susie to play in, and fashioned himself with a form and name familiar to Kris, perhaps an idealized younger brother version of Asriel to the older brother he grew up with.
I like this.
The prophecy about the three heroes struck me as too simplistic and generic initially. And as I played I continued to be surprised at how it wasn't being subverted in any way: the plot that Ralsei lays out in the beginning more or less goes exactly as he says it's going to. Which feels very weird coming off of Undertale, a game built around subversion of video game tropes. But the idea of it being Ralsei's game of make-believe that he's somehow brought to life ties that element of the plot in nicely with the classroom duality being highlighted here.
This theory also sheds some light on the issues around choice that occasionally crop up - whatever Ralsei's true nature, I think you're spot-on that Jevil's "freedom" is based on the realization that his world is constructed. He's very clear about knowing that the world is a game, though whether that game is the Dark World, Deltarune itself, or something else is still unclear.
I noticed that immediately before that battle you're presented with one of the many false choices throughout the game - to use or not use the key - both of which result in the key being used and the door being opened. This contrasts Jevil being the only enemy where fighting and sparing bring different outcomes. I doubt this association of Jevil's freedom with the player being given a consequential choice was coincidental.
I think that we can expect to see a lot more play with the concept of choice in future chapters, and I think a lot of it will revolve around Ralsei. He definitely seems to be a crucial link to the Dark World. I'm curious to see how much influence he actually has over it, and by what mechanism.
Really impressed by how much Toby has managed to pack into this short chapter - Undertale is a brilliant game, and I fully believe Deltarune has the potential to rival or surpass it in scale and impact.
I pretty much agree! But I wanna point out how BS this prophecy is given the fact that at "the end" of the "heroes" journey through the kingdom of darkness, no one cares anymore about how this should actually play out. It feels like a red herring, seeing how "3 heroes sealing the fountain(s)" and "banishing the angel's heaven" isn't taking place at all! It's just like Ralsei needed a convincing (?) reason/purpose/context for the other 2 to "play along" but in the end, "going home" was good enough a reason to stick together. And no one even ever really knew how "getting home" works, it was all just assumed that going east is the solution.. It feels like a wizard of oz thing. Protag magically lands in magic world, is told that the yellow brick road leads to the wizard who is the most likely to know because he knows everything alright. So protag goes, learns things & makes friends on the way which has it's own value and importance but in the end that journey wasn't even necessary to "get home" - sealing the fountain (the 3 of them but Ralsei just stays behind)? The name dropped but never explained "angel's heaven"? All BS. At least, for the make believe journey that played out in the KoD. I think the prophecy still holds value but in another form.. (i wrote a long ass post about this yesterday but it went astray haha - https://www.reddit.com/r/Deltarune/comments/9tnsa7/gaster_seam_and_rouxls_overarching_story)
Thanks for underlining the topic of "choice"! I agree that this as well as agency, power and powerlesness (futility) will be prominent themes. Will, determination, hopes and dreams.. It all comes together.
What... what happens to the weapon Jevil becomes when you go back to the ‘real world’...?
Nothing, I even give it to kris through save editing , and nothing change.
On the other end if kris end the dark world with a trefoil, a weapon only available through save editing, he end up being equiped with a lucky pencil (not an halloween pencil )
And the weirdest thign is than i didn't manage to directly put the lucky pencil in the lightworld inventory through save editing (while i managed to get the halloween pencil this way. )
So Jevil just, disappears when you get back? That's... unsettling...
Unless most items do that anyway
I like this analysis and it definitely seems like Ralsei isn't telling us everything. I wonder if he really is a boss monster (or some kind of parallel universe analogue to Asriel) because if he wanted to assume that form for Kris then he didn't have to hide it with his hat and darker fur. I wonder if the prophecy has some truth to it (it doesn't seem like the delta rune itself is made up, since its an emblem on everything). Though given that Ralsei inhabits that empty in-between space between the Light World and the great door, he might not even be a Darkner, and thus he cannot be the "Prince from the Dark" that's in the prophecy. Nobody in the Dark World recognizes him as a prince, and multiple times he's even referred to as a Lightener by rudinns and the king. We already have a Prince of the Dark and his name is Lancer. I wonder if Lancer will end up being the real Delta Warrior since they went through all the trouble of redeeming him and he seems less suspicious and omnipotent than Ralsei
Is that Bold and Brash/Belongs in the Trash on the cabinet door?
I mean, it might be a reference, but I recall when you checked the paper it had “Alvin” written on it, so perhaps it’s a drawing of the turtle pastor Alvin from the overworld.
If you save near one of the forest spots it goes 'The blocky trees...' so on. So yeah.
Also, there are puzzle pieces scattered around. Huh...
yeah, almost like the puzzle pieces you meet in the game.
The switch is probably the fountain because it controls the light and the dark and all.
Also, when Kris and Susie come back they appear exactly before the switch
Holy dang, you're right. And the other Fountain only exists in the room beside the door because that's Ralsei's Dark Kingdom: another closet with a light switch that was turned off... The fountains that "Give them form" are just light switches that are shut off, which somehow creates a world based on whatever is scattered in that room... That means the "mysterious knight" is some real person that somehow turns rooms into Dark World kingdoms... If the Card Kingdom is the only new one so far, and the knight is still out there, that means the other chapters could be completely different kinds of Dark Worlds based on whichever room is next
If the Dark World is built from the elements in the classroom, I can't help but wonder if a reflection of an object would appear in the Dark World if one were to put it in the classroom and enter the closet again. Perhaps Kris or Susie will do that at some point (remember Susie invited Kris to go back there the next day).
that would be a really cool game mechanic hopping between the two worlds to place certain key items to progress from one world to another, like putting building blocks up into a tower to reach somewhere
until the janitor notices and cleans up the room...
do you honestly think the janitor even goes in there? it's apparently an unused classroom, my guess used as a day care or simple storage room, with how dirty it is, unless we the players plus barney bae caused that, im pretty sure its been like that for a while
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hidden room with the three on the top left corner of the Field of Hopes and Dreams?
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Yeah, i think first it's name is just Round and later it becomes K.Round (crowned) heh
oooooooooh , nice catch !
That picture on the cabinet, anyone else thought it looked familiar?
I thought it was a drawing of the pastor who is in front of the church
The lego also reminds me of those block enemies you have to re-stack.
Boxer.
The whole story gave me an "Alice in Wonderland" vibe. Anyone else?
That would be the cards, checkerboard, and royalty theme.
exactly
Also, it's a "Dark World" because the light switch is off until after you get out.
Edit: Though, on further reflection, I don't think that's the only meaning to it. There's too much going on there for it just to be about how they're standing in a dark room.
this is so very interesting.. how have I not found this out naturally?
i am disppointed in myself, a bit
what about the jevil's room?
No obvious evidence at sight.
He could be in the right part of the cabinet, since this part is closed.
Btw it's obvious if we follow the card theme jevil must be a joker (j - evil ).
But he could also be a jack in the box, since he's locked in a small room and had a spring for neck
I thought that his name came from joker/jester + devil
The switch is probably the fountain because it controls the light and the dark and all.
Also, when Kris and Susie come back they appear exactly before the switch
“Field of Funtimes and Naps”
What about the secret boss? He literally isn‘t anywhere here
Anyway there isn't every single characters visible in the room.
there is no catepilar, no bird things, no dancer, no spinchief (spinchief would obviously be a spinnign top) ect ....
see i always thought the same when looking at this room never understood what happen to the latter part but i guess the door works but how did they get there well my theory revolves around two things ether this is a scenario Gaster made to find the perfect world and some how we broke out and landed into the void Gaster knowing our importance probably put us into a sort of dream state and this would also explain how certain things don`t line up to the pacifist ending of undertale and also explain the beginning a little. my second idea is that the world we get waken up in is a very unique scenario where you become the child of Toriel but never meet anyone or kill anyone and still some how get to fight Asriel. (p.s. has anyone tried to name there character in undertale Kris).
That's Smart.
There’s also the item with kris after he comes back into the classroom! The ball of junk! If you try to get rid of it, it says something along the lines of “you feel horrible that you dropped the ball of junk” what if.. the ball of junk is the manual? Given to him by ralsei? I mean in the dark world you cant get rid of it so.. what if he carried it with him?
You can get rid of the manual.
Just throw it a second time, it will shatter and railsei will be completly hearthbroken.
And ye the ball of junk is the manual, and the pencil is your sword (wooden sword with a carbon renforced core ), if you leave with a spooky sword it became an halloween pencil.
Ooo I see I see, that’s really interesting! There’s so much more than what just meets the eye! I’m really fascinated reading all these theories,, jsjsjs good luck finding more things!
If these are the things we encounter after we pass through the golden door, then what could all the things we saw in the dark world be? The small enemies are odd, and there are those large blobs of stuff that I assume are sleeping. We also acquire the glowshard here. What could it be?
This is a huge play on how powerful imagination can be.