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I always liked the scene from KOTOR 2 in the cave when the visions repeat to you “Apathy is death” - I always knew it had a deep meaning but what exactly does this phrase mean in the context of the game? They say it regardless of your response which I also found interesting.
I always took it as “Not caring means you’re the worst of the worst”
Can someone explain or share their own take on its meaning and implications? I’d appreciate it very much.
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So the first thing to highlight is that they don't say it regardless of your response. They say it when you refuse to side with either the vision of Kreia or with your companions against her. Most people don't want to go against their friends, but most also don't want the darkside points that come with siding against Kreia, so they choose the "I'll do nothing" option.
> I always took it as “Not caring means you’re the worst of the worst"
That is a pretty good summary. The main thing to understand that action elicit a reaction. Luke Skywalker's pacifism towards the Emperor at the end was a choice to do something and it elicited a reaction from his father. But Luke was the one being acted upon. Here the Exile is the spectator having to make the choice.
It is very much a commentary on the Jedi Council during the Mandlorian wars, just as the rest of the tomb has been. The Jedi council's apathy is contemptable and it resulted in their their destruction without gain for anyone.
The Exile has a dialogue option early in the game: "If Evil is not fought, we sacrifice the galaxy."
There is also a very unique passage in the Book of Revelations about apathy:
>These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation. 15 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16 So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth. 17 You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. 18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see. 19 Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent. 20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me. 21 To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”
In summary, apathy makes Jesus sick.
The lesson is to understand the difference between pacifism and apathy. Those who know it can change the world, those who don't help no one, least of all themselves.
God. BLESS. Your. Soul.
THANK YOU. THIS WAS SO INSIGHTFUL.
Can you expand on this a bit in relation to the scripture excerpt? I dont think I'm getting it. It seems somewhat circular to me in that both pacifism and apathy are the same exact actions and outcomes only with separate intentions.
You might need a Reverend or someone from Seminary School to give you a better explanation, but I'll give it a go.
The difference comes from your position in the confrontation. If you are being acted upon you can choose pacifism as a response. This can work if it elicits a reaction from others to take action. The most famous perhaps is Ghandi. His pacifist protest to the British Rule of India forced them to question how they could be imperial rulers whilst also believing in self determination and that they were a benevolent force for the advancement of mankind.
That is not say that pacifism is always the right answer. It is an effective answer when it can spark a suitable response. The Nazi's did not have the same moral conflict to peace protests that the British Raj had.
And speaking of the Nazi's lets move to apathy. The British could have taken an apathetic view to Nazi Germany. Of the Allies, they and France were the only ones to declare war on Germany (Germant declared war on America after Pearl Harbour) and only after the Germans repeatedly broke the international agreements they signed. If the British and French had shrugged their shoulders at this that would have been apathy. George Orwell wrote a strong piece on apathetic pacifism here:
Does that help?
Kotor sub is deep af today
It's what it's here for. We're grown adults who like to talk seriously about a couple games for kids.
Dude, who are you ? You’re very articulate and a very well spoken redditor 🤯😳
Lol I know, not a very common occurrence on many subs.
That is very helpful the way you put it in context! I think i was stuck on viewing either course in a vacuum without the outside context.
So in relation to the excerpt of scripture it's less about pacifism and more about committment. The book of revelations was a letter to the churches of Asia Minor, and it directly addressed seven of these churches. 4 of them were told they were doing well on some things, and bad on others. 2 were given nothing but encouragement. This church however, is the only church in the book to be solely rebuked, they seemingly had nothing good about them (the church as whole it does mention there are a few individuals who are ok). The city of this church was on a major trade stop, and was exceedingly wealthy. They produced incredibly valuable clothing, they healed people's eyes with some.kind of salve, they were very important. The church, while it espoused Christian ideals, did nothing to help the poor and downtrodden. They said they were Christian, but didn't practice a single thing that Jesus taught. The passage is rebuking them for not choosing either side, and implies that by not choosing a side they have the chosen the side against Jesus. Kind of like the jedi refusal to fight essentially meant they chose mandalorian victory. The passage is about apathy in general to sum up.
PS the phrase spitting you out of my mouth is a reference to the city's well, which was famously full of lukewarm water that would cause any who drank of it to become violently ill. The Bible is full of neat little things like that that are lost in modern readings
Ahhh ok thats fascinating! Thank you for the response
No problem, I love being a Bible nerd sometimes
Come on, you’re smarter than this.
That’s basically it. The vision is trying to tell you that the worst thing you can do is sit by and let yourself be taken by the current of events. One way to take that vision in the cave is for the exile to decide she wouldn’t have gone to the wars if she could do it all again, as they know with hindsight that their actions caused a lot of pain and suffering.
As a “good guy” in a story, you would usually assume that you’re supposed to avoid this kind of death by your hand at any cost, but what kreia and/or the dark side force energy in the cave are trying to drive home to you is, if you hadn’t gone the death would have happened anyway. By other jedi hands, but also due to the exile’s absence; effectively, they would then not be present to prevent the mandalorians from inflicting suffering on innocents.
It’s one of the pinnacle moments of TSL where the narrative of the game is deconstructing the Star Wars tropes we believe to be normal. By setting itself where the exile has already been to the war at the beginning, you become incapable of separating yourself from the things you’ve done. You were wrong to go and contribute to the violence, but the council were also wrong to believe that doing nothing was the right choice. All that’s left is to pick up the pieces as they lay and try to construct something out of them; to leave them scattered is effectively accepting nothingness.
YOU ARE THE MAN. THANK YOU.
Aaaah...good times, when Star Wars was for adults and kids both. I played that game when I was 20ish and played it again when I was 30ish, the experience I had was vastly different ( lightsaber go brrrr ) and fulfilling. If there is one game deserves a remake it's Kotor 2 ( 1 is also good but I think the 2nd game is superior ) I would pay big bucks to see the game with Jedi:Survivor graphics and mechanics...
🤯🤯🤯
I always thought it meant if you aren’t actively doing something you may as well be dead. To sit idly as life passes you by is no way to live
Deep asf. I like this.
Woah
It's the space version of shitting on people who don't vote because "both sides suck".
Oh shit, I like this take too!
Y’all are the best. Thank you so much for the sophisticated answers and interpretations guys - this actually means a lot to me because I’m (We’re?) a KOTOR nut.
Deep answers here so far, but everyone is missing a key piece here. It's not Kreia trying to teach the Exile anything, it's the tomb trying to goad the Exile into a fight. If it were really Kreia, she would be in her brown robe like she is on the Ebon Hawk, for example, not her Darth Traya garb. In the earlier visions, there are dialog options where the Exile realizes it's a vision and can give sarcastic, nihilistic responses to the tomb ("this is just a vision, nothing I do matters"). In the Malak vision when you first enter, if you take that option, everyone attacks without going through the whole conversation. So I think it's the tomb finding a way to get everyone to fight the Exile.
I recommend checking out Papito Quin on YouTube, he has a ton of videos about KOTOR2 and it's philosophy, including a few on the tomb.
OP, very prescient that I just played the tomb yesterday!
Kreia's philosophy is centered around asserting control over your own destiny. Apathy is the antithesis of this, allowing yourself to be pulled along by the Force's will. This status is worse than death, because you don't exist to do anything (not even feed beasts and insects)- the Force is the one doing something, not you.
Kreia wants to teach you to always pick a side, because even picking the worst possible option is still better than having an option picked for you.
Apathy is death, I always took it as doing nothing won’t always work and sometimes you have to take a side, or die (in the real world, fail)
Oooo deep. I see, I see.
Not doing anything to change or control the world around you, or set events in motions for good or ill, is worse than death. If you don't exercise your free will, if you don't make choices but simply wait for things to happen to you, you are less than human
Bro, you guys are making me love this quote more.
Your not far off. Basically, if you fail to choose, you’re choosing to fail
As a Christian I loved reading the replies to this post
Relating to any form of Christianity is ridiculous. “Apathy is death” means doing nothing results in feebling of abilities. If you do nothing your actions debilitate your ability to act later to stop evil. That being said, I disagree with this. Thinking while appearing to remain inactive is not the same as doing nothing.
Well you have it correctly. Not carrying/ Inaction is worse than wrong action because you are not exerting any sort of influence on the world, you are like a black hole that simply consumes to sustain itself.
Apathy also leads to going with the current and abdicating responsibility for things, they just happen instead of you choosing to make/let them happen for one reason or another and in that regard harm that comes from lack of care is in a way harsher than one that comes from malice.
It is a warning about one of the greatest dangers for those, who chose light side of the force. Falling into darkness with its dangers of becoming addicted to power (and it's fruits), or losing self-control and turning into a mindless beast is popular theme, as most SW artworks are made from light side's point of view. However many of the light side characters there actually are already showing sings of being blinded by the light. Some of them gradually lose their ability to think critically, becoming zealots of certain set of dogmas, which eventually either turns them into pure monsters (something that only lawful good paladin can become), or forces them to fall to darkness. Much more however are those, who fall into a form of self-centered apathy and simply refuse to react to a adequate measure to whatever happens outside of their direct environment (Yoda's "Dark side clouds it. Meditate on this i will" is one of the greatest examples). At least twice in the history of the Jedi chapter such apathy had become so widespread, that it lead it to a near-extinction state.