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What do diphthongs actually sound like to you guys?

Psycholinguistics

Due to the influence of my language I hear diphthongs as two completely distinct vowels in a single syllable. Until relatively recently I thought this was the only way to hear diphthongs, and I'm still kind of in denial about the fact that English speakers hear them as a single phoneme.

So what is it actually like to hear say /ai/ as a single sound?

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They sound like two separate sounds but ones that blend into each other. Most people don't think about things like diphthongs so if you asked them they might say it's "the vowel sound of this syllable" because the rule they were taught (if they were at all) is that there is one vowel sound per syllable. But if you made them stretch it out you could make them realize it's indeed two distinct sounds, just mashed together.

It’s so weird looking at foreign diphthongs sometimes, like there’s no way they sound as natural as my language’s. /eu/ gets me this way, so stilted to start the name of Europe in many other languages.

u/Forward_Fishing_4000 avatar

Nah none of the English diphthongs are as satisfying to say as [uo̯]

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Just like phonemic consonant clusters.

Maybe in the same way that consonant clusters are also several phonemes blended and we don’t say them like they are separated?

Yep, same idea, they just blend into each other

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They sound aaight

Oh, that's really interesting!

This is not exactly the same thing, but I've been mulling over the fact I can't tell the difference between /ai/ and /aj/ in the slightest, or between /au/ and /aw/, like help me out here. Native English speakers, do you hear something different there? Am I missing something? Was I just poisoned by the bad linguistics we were taught in middle school for some reason?

To answer your question, I hear like, a vowel and a half. Doesn't "feel" like one phoneme to my ear.

In terms of English and the examples you gave, there is no distinction, it's just whatever "style" the person has chosen to use for their transcription. Insert "It's the same picture" meme lol

u/kori228 avatar

it's a difference in methodology. offglides are equivalent to a non-syllabic vowel (/j/ = /i̯/, /w/ = /u̯/)

the usage difference lies in whether you treat the offglide as part of the nucleus (i.e. vowel) or the coda (i.e. consonant).

u/ImplodingRain avatar

/au/ doesn’t exist in English, because vowel hiatus is totally forbidden in the language. There is no sequence /au/. The diphthongs /ij/, /ej/, /aj/, /oj/, /aw/, /ow/, and /uw/ are the only “vowels” permitted to come before another vowel, because they come with their own attached glide to separate things. This is why, for example, the word “the” has two forms: /ðə/ before a consonant and /ðij/ before a vowel. Of course, many speakers these days are using a glottal stop to separate vowels instead, so you’ll often find [ðəʔ] instead of /ðij/. You can tell these “vowels” must have a glide on the end instead of being sequences of two separate vowels, because they pattern differently than English’s “checked” vowels (monophthongs). In my dialect at least, /ɪ/ is permitted to come before coda /l/ in words like bill, kill, krill, etc. but /aj/ (usually transcribed erroneously as /aɪ/) is not. A schwa must be inserted to separate this glide /j/ from the following /l/, because /jl/ is an illegal coda sequence. In the other direction /ɪ/ is never allowed to come before another vowel or at the end of a word, but /aj/ is. And transcriptions like old RP /iː/ and /uː/ are clearly not right, because these vowels are neither long nor monophthongal. More than their surface realizations being different, they also pattern with the other diphthongs in where they’re allowed in words. If English diphthongs really were just sequences of different vowels, none of this would happen.

I’m not sure i fully follow. How would you transcribe the words “cow” or “frown”? In your dialect, how would you pronounce/transcribe “bile”?

Also on your note about “the”, are you saying that “the animal” is (usually/normally/always) pronounced “ðij.æ.nɪ.məl” or “ðə.ʔæ.nɪ.məl” (w/ some dialectical variability) and never “ðə.æ.nɪ.məl”?

(All genuine questions cause I’m really not sure i understand your point)

u/ImplodingRain avatar

cow: /kæw/

frown: /fræwn/

These /w/ are more like [o] or [ɤ] for me. Definitely not transcribable as [u]

bile: /bɐj.əl/ [bɐjʟ̩]

This /j/ is phonetically much more marginal than my KIT vowel, and I wouldn’t recognize it as [ɪ].

Unless you want to analyze English as having syllabic resonants, it makes more sense for there to be an underlying schwa phonemically. Because the word is definitely two separate syllables for me. Same with -er words like flower, power or even sour, dour, etc.

Yes there is always a glottal stop or glide in “the” for me. It sounds like slurring your words if you connect a schwa straight to the next vowel. It’s a forbidden sequence just like [æʌ] or [ɛʊ] or [ɪæ]. You will never find an English word with these sequences.

My point is that vowel hiatus is forbidden phonotactically in English. So even if phonetically I move my mouth in the same way as [ao̯] or [aɤ̯], it doesn’t make sense to transcribe these as vowel sequences phonemically.

u/kori228 avatar

you can still have /au/ or /ai/ (commonly seem as /aɪ aʊ/) in English because phonologically you're not treating it as two vowels on hiatus, you're treating it as a single vowel phoneme. It's a difference in methodology—transcribing /aw/ treats the glide as a consonant while /aʊ/ as part of the nucleus.

the specific vowel used to write that second part of the diphthong is kinda irrelevant in English, it just marks it as a front-ending falling diphthong

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I swear I thought I was the only one who noticed my “ow” sounded like /æw/, I don’t see anyone talk about this

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u/Forward_Fishing_4000 avatar

They don't mean that, that's a different transcription system. Using the one you're using it would be represented as ī

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u/Forward_Fishing_4000 avatar

Yup!

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u/FoxenWulf66 avatar

Well Y in English is used breifly in alot of words

Like say use being yuze or yuse

/aɪ/ is ah-ee or ah-ih whilst /aj/ is ah-yə to me

as for /au/ and /aw/ do you mean ah-uh and ah-hw

Or do you mean /aʊ/

I'd say Y and W are heavier sounding

Edited

Native here, idk what the difference between /ai/ and /aj/ is supposed to be, do you have any examples?

As for /au/ vs /aw/:

/au/ ➡️ bow, cow, now

/aw/ ➡️ raw, bra, caw

edit: these are approximations based on my own dialect, not standard american

u/Boonerquad2 avatar

Umm... that's not what /au/ vs /aw/ means.

👀 maybe we're interpreting things differently?

au to me is a diphthong (like in the word sow, the pig)

aw is essentially a long vowel (yawn, bond, etc)

wheres the discrepancy lol

The discrepancy is that you're not using the IPA at all. That's what the slashes mean.

The long vowel you mention is probably /ɒː/. /aw/ is roughly the sound of British English "ow". As in, the sound you make when something hurts. Also the "ow" in British English "how".

The spelling "aw" produces that sound for you, certainly. But anything within /.../, [...] or similar isn't normal spelling, it's a different alphabet entirely.

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To me they sound indistinguishable from a sequence of two vowels in hiatus, so to me /ai/ sounds the same as /a.i/, my native language doesn't have any kind of phonemic diphthongs whatsoever.

u/Forward_Fishing_4000 avatar

This I can understand. I can personally distinguish diphthongs from hiatus but it's easy for me to imagine someone might not be able to, while on the other hand the concept that a diphthong could be a single phoneme is completely inconceivable to my mind.

while on the other hand the concept that a diphthong could be a single phoneme is completely inconceivable to my mind.

I guess that might be due to fact that they're often represented by single letters in English.

Also even phonemes that aren't diphthongs might have movement /u/ /iː/ /æ/ as /ʉu̯/ /ɪi̯/ /ɛə̯/ and you may or may not find those to sound like a single phoneme. Also sometimes diphthongs become monothongs /eɪ̯/ → /eː/. I guess it all depends on the rules of the language same things are perceived differently cross linguistically 🤔 I guess within English they are treated as one sound maybe if /iː/ historically turned into /aɪ̯/ in pronunciation but still perceived culturally as one sound.

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To me /ai/ diphthongs are the same as /aj/. Can you not distinguish /Vj/ from /V.i/? Or maybe /Vw/ from /V.u/? Does your language not have (coda) glides?

u/Forward_Fishing_4000 avatar

They speak Georgian which lacks both /w/ and /j/ and has no diphthongs

Doesn't Georgian have like 27×2²¹ consonant phonemes, but no /w/ or /j/ 😭 ?

u/69kidsatmybasement avatar

Georgian actually doesn't have that much consonants (for context, Russian has more). That would be true for the North Caucasian languages.

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Can you not distinguish /Vj/ from /V.i/? Or maybe /Vw/ from /V.u/?

I can't, they both sound like /V.i/ and /V.u/ to me.

Does your language not have (coda) glides?

Yeah, though some non-standard regional dialects of Georgian do have [j] as an allophonic realization of either pre and postvocalic /i/ or coda /h s t͡s z ʃ/.

Damn that sucks

As I've said in another comment:

Doesn't Georgian have like 27×2²¹ consonant phonemes, but no /w/ or /j/ 😭 ?

Do you struggle saying stuff like ya, what because of [j, w]?

Doesn't Georgian have like 27×2²¹ consonant phonemes, but no /w/ or /j/ 😭 ?

Basically yeah, though they both existed as non-phonemic allophones in Old Georgian.

Do you struggle saying stuff like ya, what because of [j, w]?

Yeah, occasionally I do struggle with pronouncing "ya" because of [j], especially when I'm not talking carefully, though the [w] in "what" is VERY easy for me.

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u/69kidsatmybasement avatar

Yeah, though some non-standard regional dialects of Georgian do have [j] as an allophonic realization of either pre and postvocalic /i/ or coda /h s t͡s z ʃ/.

Additionally, /v/ is commonly pronounced [w] or labializes before it.

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u/weedmaster6669 avatar

Always perceived them as a single phone, same with tʃ, and I always perceived ŋ as two

When I found out that ch wasn’t one sound AND was made with a “t” instead of a “k” my worldview was shattered 

same! I had no idea that [ch] was [t] + [sh]

u/weedmaster6669 avatar

okay but imagine kɕˠ

u/xXxineohp avatar

š is just sj

Not really. At least not in English. Sue /sjuː/ and Shoe /ʃuː/ are two different words.

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u/MimiKal avatar

t͡ʃ is a single phone, tʃ is two phones. No one bothers to write the tie bar but it's essential because these are different and they contrast in languages such as Polish.

e.g. "trzeba" is clearly /tʂɛbä/ while "czepek" is clearly /t͡ʂɛpɛk/

u/weedmaster6669 avatar

if someone could explain the difference and give audio showing that they do in fact have an audible difference that would be awesome sauce

u/MimiKal avatar
Edited

Pretty sure if you just get google translate to pronounce in Polish a word with tsz/trz vs a word with cz it should pronounce them distinctly.

Turns out you don't even need to go to the hassle of finding a minimal pair if you want the same context - google translate will even pronounce non-words. So you can test "paczka" and *"patrzka" for example.

More examples with affricate/cluster difference:

koc - *kots

czas - *trzas

mieć - *mietś

dżemie - drzemie (hey a minimal pair!)

Note that Polish doesn't permit /dz/ and /dʑ/ clusters and they can't even be written down so you won't be able to get google to pronounce these.

u/weedmaster6669 avatar

Sounds like a syllable boundary and or length distinction

paczka [patʂ̆.ka]

patrzka [pat.ʂka]

not saying this is definitely right just what it sounds like to me

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u/AcellOfllSpades avatar

batch it / batshit

['bætʃ.ɪʔ]

['bæʔ.ʃɪʔ]

u/weedmaster6669 avatar

good example, also good example of why they actually Aren't phonetically distinct because the difference there is a syllable boundary distinction.

bætʃ.ɪt bæt.ʃɪt

The only difference between a t + ʃ cluster and an affricate would be morphological, not phonetic

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I think phonetically the difference between Polish /t͡ʂ/ & /tʂ/ is that the former is something like [tʰʂ]

u/Helpful-Reputation-5 avatar

Other way around, but yes—the tie bar is irrelevant phonetically.

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u/Helpful-Reputation-5 avatar

This contrast is actually [ˈtʂˑɛ.ba] and [ˈtʂɛ.pɛk] respectively (plus aspiration sometimes)—the tie bar is only relevant phonemically, not phonetically.

u/MimiKal avatar

What does that single upside down triangle mean in the first transcription?

u/storkstalkstock avatar

Slight lengthening of the preceding segment.

u/Helpful-Reputation-5 avatar

Half-long

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I saw someone a while ago insisting that every word with ng in it has a pronounced g, even when there's no /g/ in the IPA for that word. Basically they thought /ŋ/ represented /ŋg/ and anyone who just pronounced the /ŋ/ sound without the /g/ was wrong.

The teacher and I spent most of a 90 minute class trying to convince the entire rest of my Ling 101 class (to little success) because they all insisted exactly this. If there's one thing I learned in that class it's that English speakers think that the spelling is phonetic even though it very much is not.

Were examples like finger vs singer used at all? I've found that's sometimes helpful.

Yup, which they responded to by saying "[sɪŋɡə˞], see? There's a g". "Hanger" elicited a similar response.

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Or English “finger” vs German Finger.

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u/hazehel avatar

Where were they from? In my dialect, /ŋ/ without the /g/ at the end is pretty rare/ nonexistent

I don't remember. I get that that's the case in some dialects, but the point was they thought that the /ŋ/phoneme included both sounds.

u/Chance-Aardvark372 avatar

Huh

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u/weedmaster6669 avatar

I want that person drug into the street and attacked

There are people who would probably say the same about anyone who uses "drug" instead of "dragged".

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Dialect, maybe? Some English dialects do pronounce the /g/.

Edited

Yeah, but they were saying that not pronouncing it is categorically incorrect, and that it's included in the pronunciation of /ŋ/.

Edited

Lol, that's funny. In Indonesian, we even distinguish between them, to the point that we spell /ŋg/ as <ngg>. /məŋəram/ <mengeram> means "to brood", meanwhile /məŋgəram/ <menggeram> means "to roar like a tiger", though this word in particular is rarely used.

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u/Shibakyu avatar

I think tʃ made sense for me since in German words, we write it as "tsch" and "sch" represents ʃ

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Several other factors that tend to reinforce the single-phonemeness in my brain are (beware the Australian English notation ahead):

  • my diphthongs start and end in places pretty different from the monophthong equivalents - the /æ/ in /æ/, /æɪ/, /æɔ/ are all different, similarly the /ɪ/ in /ɪ/, /æɪ/, /ɑɪ/, /oɪ/ are all different (I've seen /ɑɪ/ written /ɑe/ too, but it's still nowhere near my actual /e/). Technically this could just be explained as allophony, but it helps to reinforce the distinction in my brain if I can't pin either part of the diphthong to a specific monophthongal phoneme

  • the fact that English diphthongs are so different in different accents, and in ways inconsistent with monophthongs. My /æɪ/ corresponds to American /eɪ/, but /æ/ by itself does not become /e/ (although some American accents may have [eə]). Similarly, /əʉ/ corresponds to American /oʊ/ but I definitely don't pronounce my /o/'s as a schwa.

  • the fact that what may be a monophthong in one accent is very often a diphthong in another - or even allophonically within the same accent. It's difficult to think of American English /oʊ/ as a sequence of two vowels when it can easily be pronounced [o] depending on the context. Similarly, Australian English /ʉː/ can surface as something like [ɘ̟ʉ] in some accents.

None of these necessarily prevent any linguistic analysis breaking down diphthong phonemes into sequences of monophthongs, but in a practical sense, they add up and mean that it's difficult for me to see these phonemes as sequences of individual phonemic monophthongs. Of course I'm still very aware I'm saying two different vowel sounds though (unless it's something like [ɪi] where I don't really notice the movement)

u/storkstalkstock avatar

Barely related, but your /æ/ can correspond to both /æ/ and /eə/ in American dialects which have split that historical phoneme in two. So what are diphthongs in some dialects are monophthongs in other and vice versa, but a phoneme in one dialect can correspond to both a monophthong and a diphthong at the same time in another dialect.

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u/v123qw avatar

A difference between spanish and catalan is that the diphthongs "iu" and "ui" are [ju] and [wi] in spanish (ciudad=[θju'ðað], cuidar=[kwi'ðaɾ]) but [iw] and [uj] in catalan (ciutat=[siw'tat], cuidar=[kujˈða]). Can't for the life of me tell the difference

[ju] and [uj] are [u] with half an [i] attached, so the main stress is [u]

[wi] and [iw] are [i] with half a [u] attached, so the main stress is [i]

Consider it ciúdad vs cíutat and cuídar vs cúidar if the stress was on the first instead of second syllable

u/Forward_Fishing_4000 avatar

Those sound the same to you? To me they are so clearly different that initially when I read your comment I couldn't make sense of what you were saying for a few seconds

u/QueenLexica avatar

it's the length for me

like, semivowels are very short

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Edited

With English as my native, I find it very difficult to transcribe the diphthongs I make because they sound like one sliding sound rather than two vowels. Phonemically, I recognise it as one sound/letter. When learning new languages though, I find that it depends on the language's orthography. Italian I find very difficult to see it as anything other than two vowels in one syllable. French oi making a [wa] sound makes it sound like one "sliding" vowel to me but ui sounding like [ɥi] sounds like two vowels. I think when the orthography doesn't match the phonology in my mind, I'm more likely to see it as a single vowel. I can tell you though that a lot of English speakers around me have no idea that they're making diphthongs half the time. Trying to get them to pronounce [oː] is brutal. They keep making [oʊ], not understanding the difference

u/v_ult avatar

What language? Yes I perceive them as a single phoneme

u/Forward_Fishing_4000 avatar

Finnish!

As a Romanian I also hear diphthongs exactly the same as you: multiple vowels, but in the same syllable. I definitely think the native language plays a part, though.

For example, in Romanian the word for sheep is oaie, which has two syllables: /'wa.je/. Four vowels in two syllables, each syllable is a diphthong of two vowels in one syllable, it all makes sense to me. Also my surname has three consecutive vowels that split into just two syllables, and English native speakers never seem to be able to get it right. There's even a vowel-only sentence: "oaia aia e a ei, eu i-o iau", and both words with a second syllable have more than two vowels.

So I guess I have a lot of practice thinking of diphthongs as just multi-vowel syllables, but I still can't imagine hearing the English name of the letter A, /ei/, and considering it one vowel (it doesn't even contain /a/!)

u/v_ult avatar

Ohh that makes sense

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When kids are learning how to read English, they're taught to think of diphthongs as a single sound.

Edited

I wish I could unhear it.

I do hear them as a single phoneme. If I think about it, I can process that the beginning of eye and the end are different, but honestly I think they're like how people understand tones so easily. I'm not hearing the individual sounds, I'm hearing the glides. So rather than hearing one vowel and then another I'm hearing a glide and that transition is like a phoneme to me. I can barely tell the difference between [ae] and [aɪ] for that reason, in the same way that the French have trouble differentating /ɪ/ and /i/ in enɡlish

Hearing two vowels as a single glide causes me a lot of trouble when speaking languages where hiatus is allowed, because I often miss one of the vowels.

of the core vowel sounds we are taught of English

oo - single sound /uw/ and /ʊ/

o - single sound /ow/ and /ɒ/

a - single sound /ej/, /a/ and /æ/

e - single sound /ij/ /ɛ/

i,y - single sound /aɪ/ /ɪ/

u - two distinct sounds /juw/, single sound /ʌ/

It's unclear exactly why we were taught this when the vowels have so much more variation, but as you can see dipthongs are our base conception of what a vowel is. The only one I hear as seperate sounds is u because it begins with a clear consonant sound and ends with the base form of oo

u/Forward_Fishing_4000 avatar

No need to change! I think diversity is great. It is true though that this would definitely be a problem for learning languages that allow arbitrary VV sequences.

Incidentally I don't have trouble with tones even though I don't speak a tonal language, probably since I have a musical background so I can hear tones in everyday sounds like refridgerators, thus making it not be a huge leap to also hear them in speech.

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u/AdorableAd8490 avatar

That’s sou clichei

u/mattone327 avatar

my native language is Italian and we have some diphthongs: ai, au, ei, eu, ɛi, ɛu, oi, ɔi ja, je, jɛ, jo, jɔ, ju, wa, we, wɛ, wi, wo, wɔ and even some triphthongs wja, wjɛ, wjo, jai, wai, jɛi, wɔi but I think we don’t perceive them as phonemes, just the vowels as “shorter”. Maybe some people don’t even realize it, since in our spelling system diphthongs are transcribed as separate vowels: [jɛi̯] <iei>

To me, a native Teutophone and technically native(-ish) Polonophone, diphthongs always felt like vowel-consonant/consonant-vowel sequences. When I was a youngster making up German spelling reforms while bored in math class, I'd use ⟨aj⟩ for German /aɪ̯/, since that's what it was to me: [a] followed by a consonantal glide.

I wouldn't be surprised if diphthongs were a purely phonemic concept, and didn't exist phonetically as distinct from vowel glide sequences.

u/Plental-Dan avatar

As an Italian speaker, I also hear them as two distinct phonemes.

This must certainly be because diphtongs in my language (and I assume in yours too) are always written as two graphemes, unlike in English where ⟨a⟩ may be read as /ei/.

u/the_N avatar

My dialect of English only really has offglide diphthongs so I interpret all those structure as vowel-consonant sequences. When I listen to other dialects and languages that have "normal" diphthongs, they sound like a vowel that slides into another vowel.

As a tween when I made my first analysis of the sounds in my speech to make a secret alphabet, I interpreted my gliding diphthongs as single phonemes composed of two phones, the same as the affricates. I didn't have that language at the time to describe what I was doing, but my notebook from back then uses the component sounds to describe them but gives them single symbols.

u/FoxenWulf66 avatar
Edited

They don't sound like seperate letters to us unless we slow down the speech thereof

Say /ai/ is ah ee or ah ih

I hear eye as a quick syllable as ī whereas Were i to seperate it it would be eyee eyih

I would not be able to recognize I as a diagraph because of that

u/MdMV_or_Emdy_idk avatar

Exactly the same for me. I didn’t know English speakers saw it as one phoneme!

Fun fact: years ago, before learning about linguistics, I thought that /æ/ was a diphthong. I grew up in the American Southeast, and when I was 10 to 12, I has this idea in the hack of my head that /æ/ as in "cat" was actually /eə/ or /ejə/. I've known for a long time now that it, obviously, is not, but that idea is probably what sparked my interest in linguistics.

u/storkstalkstock avatar

This is where the difference between /phonemes/ and [phonetic realizations] becomes important. The English phoneme that is typically represented as /æ/ often is a monophthong pronounced [æ] depending on the dialect, but in some dialects, especially in the US Great Lakes and Southeast regions, it can be a diphthong or triphthong in the range of [e(j)ə]. So depending on the pronunciation, you could have just been correct.