works. and i've got the intestinal fortitude to do what is right for california. >> thank you. [ applause ] >> thank you very much. thank you very much. jerry brown, attorney general, meg whitman, ceo of ebay. that has an been instructive evening. we hope you've enjoyed it. thei university and everyone here. thank you very much. i say balo. this state belongs to all of us. we just have to decide we want to change. i know government isn't a business and it shouldn't be, but the same values of accountability and focus that make california businesses among the best in the world could do a lot to fix sacramento. i'm on a mission to create more jobs, stop wasteful spending, and improve our schools. let's get to work. ♪

it's a done deal. the candidates have taken their shots and laid out their agenda. the final debate, gubernatorial debate, is done with. meg whitman and jerry brown going at each other and telling californians what they have to offer. good evening, we're live from outside angelical hall where the third and final debate just concluded moments ago. >> yes. jessica aguirry and tom sinkovitz here. it was, i think we have to admitted, a very spirited debate, probably the best of all three of the debates they've had. >> i agree. >> these candidate have really

honed in on their messages. one of the big questions going in tonight was could meg whitman appear less scripted. frankly, i think from my perspective she looked far less scripted. she looked like she was in command of what she wanted to say. not that jerry brown of on the defensive all night. he got some zinger. whitman got in some zingers. i think voter see two tough cookies running for office. >> i think it gave better perspective. the first five minutes were slow, then they came out of the gate. i think we saw a different meg whitman, less scripted as you mentioned, more out of the box. she took more shot at brown. and you got to a little bit more of that toughness that she's well-known for in ebay. an interesting exchange. they didn't waste time before they went to bat to the question of that sexist slur that was made by a brown campaign aide. so listen in to what happened with this exchange. >> you know better than that,

jerry. that's a completely different thing. the fact that you are defending your campaign, the fact that are you defending your campaign for a slur and, you know, a personal attack on me, i think it's not befitting of california. it's not befitting of the office this you're running for. >> it's unfortunate. private conversation. i'm not even sure it's legal because you have to get the consent of all the parties. and there's lots of people talking. >> all right. >> larry gerston, you watched this debate with us. they really got after each other tonight. this was pretty impressive. >> yeah. >> it was interesting during this exchange. at first it seemed like jerry brown of offering up and not making much. he apologized but began to bumble it in the response. >>ly bumbled, she came after him. then he got back to her. remember, he said, well, it's interesting you're after me because i called -- my campaign called somebody a whore, but the chair of your campaign, pete

wilson, has called members of congress the same thing. so in a sense they got the tit for tat stuff out of the way. here's why this campaign tonight or this debate tonight really gelled. because tom brokaw, masterfully stepped back and let these guys go at it time after time after time in. a sense, they each followed with their own followups. and that gave light and depth. >> that's an interesting point to make. for a while, i think we were both sitting there as experienced as we are thinking, tom, when are you going to jump in. and then you realize that was actually part of a strategy. and it worked nicely. they took on an awful lot of topics tonight. one of them being, larry, who's better in position to control sacramento's budget. >> yes. >> what but think of that? >> really, the ramifications also with prop 13. >> do we have a quote? >> let's listen to the exchange over prop 13. >> proposition 13 is absolutely essential to the future of california. and i want to defend proposition

13. what proposition 13 does is keep a lid on property taxes. >> there's no sacred cows over the long term. we have to look at things. but i support the implementation of proposition 1. i once opposed it and then made it work. as a matter of fact, howard jarvis, the author of proposition 13, voted for me and did a campaign commercial because he said even while he created 13, i was the one who made it work. >> so larry weather and traffic did you think of this elk change about prop 1? >> this really is the foundation for the whole discussion about taxes. okay, we're going to leave propaganda 13 alone, what are we going to do to balance the budget? she says we're going to cut tack in order to stimulate more jobs, therefore, more taxes. he says you cut taxes and you're going to cut the heart out of education which has already been hurt. the prop 13 thing put aside, they get back to the budget and taxes argument which they talked about all night long. >> i think it was ambiguous, frankly, both answers on proposition 1. then it came -- proposition 13.

then it came to the budget. this is where brown says you can't have on-the-job training in sacramento. >> he does. the other thing brown said is you want to cut 40,000 employees, from where? you want to go ahead and cut taxes? where are you going to get more money? i think we have a bite. >> yeah, we do. >> you know, when governor brown he's going to start by cutting 10% to 15% of the governor's budget, do you know how much the governor's budget is? >> yeah, a lot bigger than when i was there. >> no. in fact the governor's office budget is $18 million. if he cuts 15% out of the budget he's going to save $2 .7 million, less than.01% of the budget deficit that we face. if that is your plan for fixing the budget, we have really big problems ahead of us. >> well, i think another example of how whitman seemed much more relaxed tonight. much more capable of throwing

out the zingers rather than taking them. >> she really got to him when he said i'm going to cut the governor's budget by 10% to 15%. she said, $18 million. they each were playing with a lot of numbers tonight. they each used the numbers to help their side as well as do some damage to the other. >> it did seem during the exchange russia she was getting under -- exchange that she was getting under his skin. you could see him bristle, he was getting anoed. and she was, as they say on facebook, poking him a little bit. let's talk about the capital gains exchange between the two of them. i thought it was remarkable when they were talking about capital gains and he said how much will you save with -- by cutting capital gains. >> this of a point where jerry brown really tried to take the dagger and point it in the other direction. and i think we have a bite for that, too, do we not? >> i think we have about wasting -- >> we have --

>> all right. let's talk about something else. at the end of that exchange, whitman also turned it around on jerry brown when she said, my business is creating jobs, and your job is politics. and that got a huge response from the crowd. >> yes. >> so this of just -- really, a -- a fun debate to watch. both of them were on their games tonight. they have really reers ared well. >> it shows -- reherred well. >> it shows something we haven't seen until now, they don't like each other. this isn't just people running for office, they don't like each other anymore. it's clear. >> we're going to show you a bit of that. as you see the exchange about them not liking each other. >> the bay bridge is a perfect example. from san francisco to oakland, the seismic repairs were supposed to cost $1 billion. cost $4 billion. over budget, simply not acceptable. and what happened in sacramento

is the parties blamed each other as opposed to taking accountability for results. >> i decided that the budget process has to start not in january and dawdle along until june and recently until october, i want to start this budget process in november. a funk after the election. if -- a phoenfew weeks aftera t election -- a few weeks after the election if i'm elected governor. >> this is the subject of cutting government waste. >> you know, i say this now. we've said it throughout the last several months. they still really don't get down to brass tax, beyond those talking points, when you're talking about taking huge deficit and bringing them in. they haven't done it tonight. they haven't done it the other two times. you wonder with three weeks left when will they do it. >> and tom brokaw even mentioned that in saying that their plan wasn't detailed enough for him to understand, and if he couldn't understand it, how are most californian supposed to be able to understand it? >> they both referred to the plans they have. we don't hear those plan ever in

these formats. that's for sure. >> what happens, so people know what's happening, is after the debate is over, the candidate then go into the spin room where they go and get formal interviews. and they assess how they think they did in the debate. how they think their opponent did in the debate. and nbc's garvin thomas is in the spin room waiting for the attend. >> reporter: jessica, things are happening right now as the candidates are expected here. i've spoken with the spokesman for the brown campaign. a fun night for you? >> yeah, always a fun night. good for the people of california to see the candidates face to face. i don't think we saw surprises, i think jerry brown showed what he knows about california and meg whitman stuck to the script she's had the past few years. >> what of your favorite moment? >> it's hard to pick one so soon after. i enjoyed the whole thing. it's gulz good to hear jerry brown talk about what he's going to do to fix it going forward.

we run hard, obviously it's going to be a close race. there are a lot of voters to talk to and people who need to hear about what jerry brown's going to do for california. >> okay. get into the mind for a moment of you guys leading up to the -- what did you want to accomplish? take me into the strategy room for the brown campaign leading up -- you can tell me, the debate's over. you can tell me. >> i think people got enough of you in the strategy room with the browns the last few days. what we want to accomplish is what we accomplish every day. we want people to get a clear picture of what jerry brown is and what he's going to do when he's elected governor. i think he's done that all n all three debates. i think on election day people are going to raise that he is the candidate with the experience and toj get things done. >> -- and knowledge to get things done. >> tom brokaw asked specifically about the voicemail message and the derogatory term used toward meg whitman. jerry brown ad first kind of bristled at tom brokaw's comparison, and the crowds didn't seem to like that answer. >> i think our campaign manager

apologized, jerry brown apologiz apologized. we're ready to talk about the issues facing california. >> getting become to issues -- your favorite moment. what do you think your candidate did? let me flip it around, where do you think end in whim of the weakest in all that? >> well, she obviously came in very well prepared for this debate. but i think her inconsistencies on how to repair the budget and lack of specifics and lack of go about how to to it has showed tonight as it has if the other two debate. >> thanks -- two debates. >> thanks. i expect the mead why room which is turning into the spin room as the delegates from the candidate are coming, the candidates themselves have said they will be coming to this room later today. talk about how they felt about their performance. back to you. >> all right. garvin, thank you very much. nbc's deputy political director, mark murray, is on the set now. to what extent did you confer with tom as you put together your line of questioning tonight? and tom used the word at one point "sacrosanct." was anything in that category?

>> this is tom's debate. you know it's a big sport, big team, and we were able it help out tom as long possible. i've been following this from my tv and shows across the country. i've heard the back and forth between debates. tom mentioned he's been following california politics for a very long time. there were several people who flew from washington, d.c., to help tom out. i think he had a great time. you know, i've been following all the debates so far between jerry brown and meg whitman. this is the best so far. >> and that's what i was going to go in to with you. putting in perspective, the three dates weather and traffic did you see different? what were voters able to glean? >> we saw a very impressive meg whitman. she's behind by five to seven points. i think the tone of the debate reflected that. certainly this of her best performance. >> i bet she hears it.

let's listen to meg whitman who's going to analyze her performance here tonight. [ inaudible ] >> >> you were talking about the changes -- [ inaudible ] >> clearly please the meg whitman. you can see by her post-debate demeanor. she has to be happy with how it went. did you think there was a particular moment in the debate that stuck out in terms of meg whitman going after jerry brown, that unsettled lawsuit?

>> i don't think that he was ever unsettled but he was asked question after question whether it was on tack, whether it was on av-32, on crime, particular low hard on crime, the special interest, endorsement. every tonight, end in whim tried to get the last word in. that struck me. as we try and set up the debates we want to make sure both candidates have equal time. again and again meg whitman tried to get the last word in. she was clearly the aggressive candidate. had to be tonight. >> that's right. everyone felt she was the one who had to score. at best she is in a tie right now. when you sat down philosophically, was there something that you wanted to accomplish with the tonight or for the voter of california? >> just to the voters. address the big issues, economy, taxes, climate change, and i think that that was accomplished, i think tom did a fantastic job with that. but what i really have taken away from this race, i followed the governors races across the country, senate, house races, there's probably not a clearer

contrast between the candidates. as was mentioned, you can tell the candidates don't like each other. but they are two fundamentally ken debate. jerry brown talked about how he thinks government is about empowering the powerless. these candidates are coming from two different points of view. that helped and california voters is a clear choice after these devil raelopments. >> and jerry brown said i've got the intestinal fortitude, i've been in the kitchen. she's just on the sidelines. i think he did try to delineate that he has the experience to guide california and not to have someone from the office come in as we had from someone from business who tried to point out that hasn't worked out well for california. >> the argument he's making is let's go to the past. someone who's done it before. meg whitman, we've heard her talk about fresh ideas, a fresh face. referring to jerry brown as the same old, same old.

a clear contrast. and i think voters have really had -- who they might vote for. >> we appreciate you spending time with us, mark. we'll be back with more in a minute.

our coverage continues live outside of angelical hall and dominican university campus, san rafael. what you're looking at is the people that are streamed out of the final debate here this evening. some of the audience members that were in there during that fiery exchange between meg whitman and jerry brown. we have heard that this has been the third and final debate really, the midwest impactful of the three debates. >> i think so, too. >> the one where we really got to get a closer look at the candidate. >> it's true. part of what still tated that

was for the first time that i wafped a debate, there were no opening or closing statements. it was all about answering the questions and monoamonolooking each other if the eyes and really giving it. you know, one exchange that stands out to me, is something we had not heard before. was tom brokaw asked meg whitman about her having spent $121 hell of her own money. no one doubt that this debate is over with, that another $10 million or $20 million isn't going to be coming with so much left in his pocket. whitman said, i will tell you this, that the unions have spent $300 million. whether that's true i don't know. over the last four years in consort with the person that they stand behind right now. i'm not worried about spending $120 million of my own money when i'm confronted with the money working against me. >> the question tonight, though is, how did -- wove been hearing what analyst think and hearing what the people that were inside

angelical hall think. how did d this of play of angelical hall? nbc bay area's damian trujillo joins us with a look at how tonight's tonight debate aim to the people. and the people that are trying to decide which what i they're going to vote come november 2? >> reporter: the view here of put on by the institute of governor affairs. it's a chance for staff and students to make a final look at the candidates before they make up their minds on election day. an hour before the debate a panel of experts decided they dissected the race between brown and whitman. then they rolled down the big screen, and the candidates went at it. the roof was packed, standing room only. more than 40 students and faculty were on hand, both democrats and republicans. unlike the rest of the state, most people in the room have already made up their mind on

who they'll vote for. some even brought their campaign signs. only one person, polly armstrong, is undecided. she looked closely at the candidates trying to make up her mind. the room chuckled at comment by whitman and brown. but was this enough to help the undecided make up their minds? >> jerry brown, i would love to sit down next to at a dinner party. i actually had a fundraiser for him for his a.g.'s race. just doesn't feel like he's -- he need to be governor. >> you'll vote for sneg. >> well, she's opposed to things that are so much a part of me that i really am undecided. >> and armstrong is a lifelong democrat. live at the cal campus, damian trujillo, nbc bay area news. one quick point. i spent time on the dominican campus last week, spoke with students. they were saying i recentle

haven't made up my minds yet. i think you can see even two consults. going into the debate, you might ornarily say open mind. s

you've increased regulations, yuou've increased taxes, and you've made it more difficult for small businesses to grow and thrive here. >> i have to say -- those last three statements are demonstrably false, pointed out by the "san jose mercury" and "oakland tribune." regulations, i haven't been in the state government in sacramento for 28 years. >> you might have heard those message before in the many commercials that are airing day and night around california right now. as these two candidates position themselves for vote day which is

just tloex ago. tonight, the -- just three weeks ago. tonight the last of the debates and probably the best between those two candidates. >> here gerston is here. they have points that they've been reiterating. but obviously the two scandals that happened change the tenor of the debate. they came back to the issue of immigration and brokaw asked meg whitman a good question, i out which said if you couldn't tell after nine years and you had -- that this woman was undocumented, how are other business owners to be able? it was a good point. >> yes. and that, of course, opened up the entire immigration debate session. that was really important because end in whimt said california ought to do everything it can to stop illegal immigration. jerry brown said, it's a federal decision, we ought to look at it that way. and we came out with the effort in congress to prune the area of

legal citizenship. >> i think we have sound from that bite. >> we have throw force of i.d., our housekeeper was found out and i had to let her go. this is why we need a good everify system that allows a business of every size to look at the documentation and know whether it is real or not. >> the biggest problem here is we have millions of people that are here illegally. in the country and in california. they're in the shadows. what are we going to do about it? is she going deport them, are we going to leave them there? we need a comprehensive immigration reform at the federal law. i strongly support that. and without a path to citizenship. i have no way to deal with the people that are here, maybe have been here five years, ten years, and have not broken laws. >> reporter: it was interesting because in this elk change he tried to make it more of a human

issue. this is -- he took a shot and said, oh, i'm not going to mention it, but she didn't get him a lawyer when she could have. so he did try to spin it on her a little bit there. >> but you touched on something so very important. you saw her distances, i'm a no nonsense business woman and i want to drown thinking about the people, you have to think what we do to meet the people. that doesn't mean she's not. but you're coming at it in different ways. that's one of the wonderful classic differences that came out tonight, better than any other time so far. >> so larry, let me ask you the $ 4,000 question. who won? >> you don't think -- >> no, it's hard to know. the voters will decide who won. we saw a phenomenal contrast. no question about it. would you law would have done that. >> and any gaffes that these

candidates -- >> i didn't see anything of any consequence whatsoever. the card were on the table. the voter have plenty to decide. >> all right. what we're waiting for is jerry brown. we saw a snippet of meg whitman when she came out to the spin room looking happy and pleased. we're awaiting jerry brown to come out and get him -- he probably feels confident about how he did. of course we're also streaming all this live on our web site at nbcbayarea.com. it has been an eventful and very enjoyable night. and hopefully an instructional night for the people of california. >> we will have a complete wrap-up coming up at 11:00. thank you for being with us tonight, everyone. good night. >> bye-bye. [ male announcer ] taxes.

so who called prop 13 a "fraud" and a "rip off?" jerry brown. who raised the gas tax as governor, and pushed for higher sales taxes? jerry brown. who tried five times to raise property taxes in oakland? jerry brown. who supported higher statewide income taxes? jerry brown. and who says, if elected, he'll ask voters for even more new taxes? jerry brown. governor jerry brown, again? hide your wallet.