Shōgun, set in feudal Japan, charts the collision of two ambitious men from different worlds and a mysterious female samurai: John Blackthorne, a risk-taking English sailor who ends up shipwrecked in Japan, a land whose unfamiliar culture will ultimately redefine him; Lord Toranaga, a shrewd, powerful daimyo, at odds with his own dangerous, political rivals; and Lady Mariko, a woman with invaluable skills but dishonorable family ties, who must prove her value and allegiance.
I see so many people on here saying basically “you guys who thought Toranaga was good have to eat crow! We told you he was evil and just wanted to be shogun for power!”
Here is a quote directly from Toranaga’s actor Hiroyuki Sanada
“Sanada says Toranaga did not set out to claim the ultimate military-ruler title Shogun during the time of warring factions in Japan, "but he started thinking maybe only (having) the Shogun title can make a peaceful era, so the title followed him."
Eat my shorts
I think that’s generally how it’s written in the 80s and book. He’s loyal to the heir but he realizes only he can really bring peace. His destiny is to be Shogun. We can call BS but that’s what James Clavell believed and wrote.
In this particular version, I believe what he says to Yabu suggests that the turning point that made him come to this realization was John's "unless I win" comment. Seems to really have struck a cord for Toranaga.
It did in the other versions too.
Toranaga was always a severe master, but somewhat warmer in the 80s series. You believed that he and Blackthorn were friends as much as their stations allowed.
In this series the dual fan-isims of “court jester” and “pet” seem to be what some get out of the relationship. Might be the wrong thing to take away.
Yabu death scene “he makes me laugh”
Laughter being a rare currency and if the source is reliable.. Anjin stays.
The “unless I win” line in clavell’s version is “unless you win” .. I think this, not small, change places Anjin in a more comical place from to his captors as he’s captured/kept and still drones on about defeating the Portuguese on behalf of his queen (it is funny) and Anjin is good for enlightening turns of phrase and outbursts “I’m the traitor. Traitor traitor TRAITOR! And fed you nothing but shit.”
I may have to burn down his ship again in the future .. (to test him still )
Further to Anjin staying/captured in hand as an allusion to the beginning Re. Hawks and a lesson for his son. Some hawks use the sun to mask attack (Portuguese/ishido, Anjin) Hawks are like men (horses are untrustworthy) and be trained to the hand (bait) or trained to fly/hunt.
He then later on compared Yabu/Anjin as same short feathered hawk breed and that they are predictable.
Anjin’s ship sails in and, as pilot, is recognized by toranaga as another domains (England) hawk and as such is valuable.
And last, toranaga release of the hawk “birth many daughters” I feel is attributed to his hunting hawk and that Mariko embodied this hawk and had to wait many years i in order to be “ready” to be released at the right target (ochiba/ishido) ..
And last, her poem is completed by ochiba/heir
“flowers are only flowers because they fall, But thankfully, the wind “ Toranaga release of his favourite hawk into the wind.
Blackthorne's ability to make Toranaga laugh was rare and valuable. No one else could do it. I mean, did we EVER see Toranaga laugh except with Blackthorne? Toranaga, to become Shogun, knew he was destined to become the loneliest man in the entire realm. So his need for Blackthorne's strange talent was profound.
In the book he says he needs one friend, and because of his position, an outsider is really the only one who can be that for him. He thinks that someday he will be able to tell Blackthorne about burning his ship, and they can laugh about it.
I thought it cheapened the relationship between Toranaga and Blackthorne to have him say because he made him laugh.
You make a good point, which reinforces the court jester idea. I personally don’t think it was a good change and from the little I know of William Adams he had a lot more agency than Blackthon seems to.
As an aside… I absolutely love how Toranaga tells Yabushige how Omi sold him out right at the end. It must have absolutely robbed Yabushige of any joy he could get from his own death.
I agree. A friend can make you laugh. You can respect and like someone who makes you laugh. Laughter isnt always about mockery. Toranaga could also be saying that something about John lifts his spirits, makes him smile etc. It can be a simple pleasure to be around someone like that.
I think we also need to remember those times when Toranaga let his gaurd down at least from the look in his eyes. He was truly shaken after almost dying in the earthquake and was truly grateful that John was so quick to find him. You can't entirely disrespect someone who was so quick to act on your behalf.
The other thought is that he was talking to a “deadman”, so he didn’t reveal everything to Yabu.
I like to think he meant it as a friend, but the whole broader context about not letting him go home felt very much more like a pet dynamic. And the fact that he's been gassing everyone up about the Anjin's importance only to be like "nah, I didn't really need him. It was just amusing to me" really leans into their power dynamic and the Anjin's lack of agency.
After that scene I couldn't quite figure out if Toranaga valued Blackthorn as something akin to a friend or as a pet. And that saddened me. I wish they had made Toranaga say something like "He makes me laugh", instead of "He amuses me". That would imply more friendship than pet, to me at least.
In the book he says, I needed a friend. I wish they’d left that in the show. It’s so central to the theme.
I haven’t read the book so forgive me if the below is incorrect.
My impression is that the book version of Blackthorn’s character develops at a faster rate than the show version. Book Blackthorn fairly quickly accepts and understands the Japanese culture and thus is able to find ways to make himself useful. Thus there is room for Blackthorn and Toranaga to have more interaction and develop a friendship.
Whereas show Blackthorn only becomes fully at peace with the Japanese culture when he attempts seppuku to save the villagers of Anjiro.
So my interpretation is that for most of the show, Toranaga viewed blackthorn not as a friend. Rather he was someone that is useful to keep around.
However by the end of the show both Blackthorn and Toranaga seem to have come to some kind of understanding and there is mutual respect between the two men. This is seen when the two of them share the look between them at the end.
So while they may not be friends by the end of the show, the show hints at the possibility that that may become friends in the future.
The sympathetic take is as a friend, but this version of Toranaga seems more cold and self centered or at least hides it worse.
I think it leaves it open for interpretation, like many of the Japanese character actions in the show. Toranaga in particular can't really be trusted to say what he really thinks, even when he's talking to someone he knows is about to die. The line about having a hidden heart is there for a reason, and his is the most hidden of them all.
Toranaga literaly says to Yabushige something to the effect of "Winning makes everything possible."
"Nah id win" - toronaga
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Yes, ishido alluded to it in the the first episode during the first council meeting – – the one where Fugi’s out speak his position, and as a result, offers to commit seppuku
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Why wouldn't he? It's natural for a Lord to accumulate power and wealth. That's the normal flow for that position. All the other lords were doing it as well. Same shit happens everywhere.
In book epilouge he makes it clear in his mind he always believed it was his fate ti be Shogun and everything he did e\was always aimed towards that goal. No outside motivation needed
Which makes sense because Toranaga coming to Osaka was not a smart move if he was trying to be Shogun. He got extremely lucky escaping Osaka.
Is he loyal to the heir in the book? In the final book scene where we see his heart of hearts, he talks about assassinating the heir if the heir tries to take the field against him. He’d regret it, but he’d do it.
The prize was always the Shogunate, and Toranaga’s eye was always firmly set on it (despite his many protestations).
There’s a little (huge) thing the show glosses over about the heir that makes this all make sense !< the heir is not the taiko’s son. Ochiba went to a peasant to have a son. So Toronaga has no loyalty to the heir since he’s not legitimate. That’s also why ochiba wont ally with Toronaga. >!
I thought that was the case, based on the fact the Taiko was seemingly infertile.
Except Ochiba comes around to Toranaga because he's the most worthy and she has the hots for him. And she only suspects Toranaga knows about the peasant.
Was that something mentioned in the book? I don't think there was anything about that in this series right?
Yes, it's explained in the book
It's clearly hinted at in the show.
He’s loyal right up to him deciding he needs to be Shogun. He won’t kill the heir yet, but he’ll never rule and Toranaga (Tokugawa Ieyasu) will petition the Emperor to be Shogun. Complex feelings for sure.
The historic situation (simplified) is that the heir is captive till he starts talking tough to Tokugawa Ieyasu who attacks Osaka castle and the heir kills himself.
In the book he has no actual loyalty to the heir. At the very end he talks about how he will have to bow before Ochiba and the heir for a time after he wins, but “one day those two usurpers inside [Osaka Castle] will make a mistake and then they will be gone…”.
Exactly. He’s loyal when it suits him
In the book, he says the Shogunate is the prize he's been working towards his whole life, the prize that became possible the moment the Taiko died. Ochiba didn't let the heir take the field against Toranaga because she knows that if she did then Toranaga would be forced to kill him, so sorry
Been a bit since I read that book. The 80 series and Orson Welles amazing narration is always in my head. lol
Wrong. The book says from the moment Taiko died, he planned how to become the shogun.
(I just re-read the book, so...)
On the recap podcast he mentioned it's kind of like how he never wanted to have a producer title, he just wanted to be an actor, but to make the changes he wanted to he had to seek out the producer title/role
Lmao I’ll have to get this a listen. The official one?
Yep, it's a pretty good companion to the show, 30-40 minutes but gives you just enough background info to want more.
Yup.
He grew to believe that being Shogun was his karma, his destiny whether he wanted it or not, and the only thing that could bring about an era of peace.
I vaguely recall the 1980 version ending with Toranaga saying something like, This is my karma, which I did not choose.
Like Stannis Baratheon. Didn’t want the crown but felt it was his duty
He is complicated, like all people, and neither entirely good nor evil. His goal to be Shogun can be both for a good external reason (peace) and for a selfish internal reason (power).
Back to good and evil: Toranaga certainly says and does good things, but also says and does evil things. One thing that really stuck with me from his conversation with Yabu at the end is his commentary of Blackthorne. He casually discusses how he has had thoughts of taking his life but preserves him and ultimately keeps him in Japan for his own entertainment (says evil). He also kills villagers--traitors or not--with a given justification of Blackthorne's ship being burned, all the while knowing he did it (does evil). The character as a whole has a disregard for people's lives, instead using them like chess pieces in his quest to become Shogun.
I don't know much about Japanese history of the Edo period, but a quick Google search shows the period was characterized by peace, isolationist foreign policies, economic growth, enjoyment of the arts, strict social order, etc. So is Toranaga's win a good thing? Probably, but depends on what you value.
Book Toranaga said that it was arranged (by Muragi?) to have only men whose loyalties were already questionable on duty the night the ship was burned. So he was using the “punishment” to get rid of folks who were already identified as being problematic.
I wish they had made that clear in the series.
There’s a lot they should have made clear in the series.
They did, though, when he explained to Blackthorne that he was targeting those disloyal to him.
Thanks for the further information -- I'm not all the way through the book yet so I didn't have any context beyond the show as to why he kills the villagers. That information makes his actions less evil in my eyes. Even still, killing to remove a perceived threat to your power under the pretext of killing for another reason you know to be false is arguably evil behavior.
To further on this, Yabu and Omi in the book hadplaced Izu men amongst the musket regiment that Blackthorne had been training. A secret code word "Plum Tree" would be used to assassinate Naga (who in the book didn't die) and other Toranaga high ranking officers in order to betray Toranaga to Ishido.
Yeah, it seems like they went out of their way in these final episodes to make Toranaga a lot more "evil" than he was in the books.
In the books the burning of Blackthorn's ship was done to protect both Blackthorn and the Shogunate from the Portuguese, and the village was cleared out of Yabu's sympathizers and traitors - the people who were killed weren't just innocent people being put to the sword for no reason.
This is very well summarized and my position as well. I mis wrote slightly in my post in alluding that I thought he’s a good person. He’s a great person, not a good person. Great people have to do terrible deeds in the name of their ideals sometimes. Toranaga is a study of a realistic and effective political leader
I would argue that we didn't see much of his good side in the show, though.
True, can't think of any standout moments now that you mention it. One thing I liked in the final episode was the juxtaposition of Toranaga holding his grandchild against his later inner monologue to Yabu prior to smirking right before he beheads him.
I kinda think Hiroyuki Sanada's response reminds me of Bryan Cranston talking about how Walter White really was doing it for his family. I think sometimes actors need to justify their character to themselves as the characters actually would.
Yes, the Tokugawa shogunate meant peace. It also meant stasis and oppression. Tokugawa ended religious freedom shortly after the events of Shogun and executed anyone not willing to repudiate their Christian beliefs; Shinshu Buddhists were also forced to practice in secret. Foreigners were barred from entering Japan (apart from a small number of specific designated ports; the Dutch were only allowed in Nagasaki). Leaving Japan was punishable by death. Political dissidents were brutally repressed. The rules were changed to make it nearly impossible for anyone to challenge the military dictatorship. The new order was one based on fear of change.
Japan went 250 years without another civil war and maintained its own traditional culture. But in that same span of time Europe experienced multiple wars and revolutions against their monarchies, the British colonized North America, the British colonies rebelled and formed a (relatively) democratic government, and many whole new countries came into existence. Japan did not have a comparable period of growth, so when Commodore Perry showed up in Osaka harbor and demanded they end their isolationism they had no choice but to cooperate. Had they not been locked down for two and a half centuries they might have explored the west coast of North America, or taken steps toward a more representative government, or learned new things from their European visitors. Lewis and Clark might have encountered a Japanese colony that had won its independence. Who knows what might have happened.
(it's also possible the Portuguese would have done to Japan what the Spanish did to the Philippines, which was a fear the Dutch deliberately encouraged)
Toranaga's character made me think of the Old Testament God. Seemingly mercurial, willing to sacrifice lives for no apparent reason, omniscient, capable of terrible anger and revenge, but also capable of the deepest kind of love. He is a terrifyingly complete human capable of any type of emotion or action, moving extremely strategically through the world and manipulating people's lives to achieve his ends. Really an awe-inspiring character.
Sometimes you have to wonder what would have happened had the Japans not closed themselves to the rest of the world for 200 years.
“"We don't have any more novel," says Sanada. "But we know what happened afterward based on real history. So let's see. Who knows?"”
Don’t do this to me, Hiroyuki. Don’t give me hope.
Yeah did anybody else read this!? Man, what an awesome comment!!!
And further in the article
"Toranaga can see the future he's dreamed about," says Sanada. "It's a simple but meaningful scene. Every Japanese schoolchild knows the real historical character and the peaceful era that followed. He's still a hero in Japan (and) my hero as well."
Great leaders have to make tough decisions is about as ELI5 as I can make the message of the show
Toranaga/Tokugawa may be considered a hero - and the era *was* peaceful compared to all-out war - but Japanese schoolchildren likely hear an "adjusted" version of history (as most countries do to some extent). You're right about leaders and tough decisions of course, for example decisions like this...not very fun!
Huh, so fairly similar to Broken Sword in the movie ‘Hero’?
Which is not a complaint or anything! Hero is one of my favourite movies.
I’m one of those that misinterpreted it as a desire to be Shogun, in that case!
Glad you made this comparison! I feel like this is the best equivalent where the victor wrote the history, so the perspective of the actions of an arguable tyrant can be seen as necessary or heroic.
It's a difference in historical and cultural perspective that also makes this story so novel, we don't see it depicted as much. A lot of evil was done for an era of peace, so, we see Toranaga's actions as justified in Japanese history. Similarly in Hero, the unification of China is also seen as an important historical and cultural achievement, so that tyrant character is also shown in a more positive light. Closest recent relevant Western example would probably be Oppenheimer. The main character feels guilty for his role in history but also believes it was necessary for peace and that he was the only one who could do it.
It’s a curious piece of historiography that Japanese and Chinese historians basically use the same term “warring states” the former absolutely framed their reunification as an extension of the latter.
It doesn't seem to have been a tough decision to him, when he burned the ship and tortured the villagers, just so he could keep Blackthorne for his amusement.
He stared down his best friend as he killed himself because it helped his cause towards a greater peace. The ship and village are LIGHT work. He still had use of Blackthorn’s naval and artillery skills and he had to make a scene of harassing the village so the rest of the country
All in the name of greater peace
I suppose a lot of this comes down to utilitarianism vs kantian ethics
Was the loss of hundreds (maybe thousands) of lives worth saving hundreds of thousands if not millions of lives? In my option yes
But if you’re kantian, the act of deception itself is immoral and never should have been taken regardless of the outcome
I don't know, think we romanticizing the person. Sure they had peace, but peace was enforced by a pretty iron grip by the Tokugawa shogunate. I'm not sure you fight the largest battle in Japanese history if you are truly that concerned about peace. I have no doubt both Nobunaga and Tokugawa were driven by power first and foremost, not some noble idea of peace
I mean we dropped 2 atomic bombs on Japan because we just wanted peace. The ends justified the means
You have no basis in saying that “you’re sure” or anything but your entitled to your baseless opinion
The obvious problem is that we can’t know the future or all the unforeseen consequences of our actions.
Toranaga never knew any of this would work, or that it would secure peace. He sacrificed, manipulated, and hurt others for an end that was not certain. If he failed or ended up a tyrant, would these actions have been commendable?
Many horrible things were done for great reasons. The greater then end, the easier it is to justify the means. I think we should be more aware and cautious of that fact, and act with more humility as we all have a limited understanding of ourselves and the world around us.
So nobody should ever make strides towards bettering the world because you might break bad. Cool philosophy 👍
Are we ignoring what the story tells us now?
Toranaga clearly stated, he was thinking about killing John several times because he didn't really need him that much to further his goals, but kept him for his entertainment only. Not in the name of greater peace. In the name of his own amusement.
Yes in the beginning he needed John to sow divission between Ishido an the lords, but after that he didn't need him anymore. Not even for the cannons. He didn't win the war because of cannons, he won because of Crimson Sky.
An actor’s interpretation of a character’s internal motivations is not gospel for how one should view a character.
He’s wrong though. In the book he says he’s wanted to establish the Shogunate as long as he can remember and it only became possible with the Taiko’s death. Maybe this version of Toranaga is different I guess, but I would generally defer to the book on things like this unless it’s otherwise stated.
“Was he good or evil” is an extemely shallow and childish thing to talk about lol.
He’s a complicated historical figure not a pro wrestler.
Tokugawa is in the same realm as Napoleon and Augustus. All of them were impressive, great and highly influential people, but viewed in the lens of modern ethics they would be solidly gray because you don't unite countries and empires or spread ideologies without being a shade of gray that many people in our current times cannot think about with nuance.
How is that shallow?
Because the other men in the council had tried many times to have him killed, and becoming Shogun might be the only way to save him from losing his head and all his family being forced to commit seppuku. He was Lord of Kanto and every other daimyo wanted his fief.
Because the influence of the Jesuits and the Christian lords was very dangerous for Japan as a whole: Christians had outright colonized many parts of Asia and were hiring Ronin and Japanese pirates as muscle.
Because his predecessor had also seized power and his son has no more claim to be the ruler than he has.
Because Japan has been facing endless war for generations now.
“Was he a bad guy” misses the point: it was a very dangerous time, and no one could be trusted.
It also smells like someone, insanely childishly, using a 21st century understanding of morality to judge the actions of a 16th/17th century historical figure. According to what measure is he being judged? If we go by the Samurai code within the show/book then there is nothing to be judged BECAUSE HE WON, and had he lost he would have rightly been branded the evil warmongerer Toranaga, who instigated an illegal rebellion jeopardizing the rightful rule of the heir of the Taiko.
I think it’s perfectly fine to disagree with the actor who played the character and even the author who wrote him. That’s part of the fun of art - it’s subjective. Even real history is largely about interpretation of people’s secret hearts.
I think Toranaga insisting that becoming Shogun is necessary for peace is a convenient sort of white lie to himself that justifies the ambition that really lives within his third, hidden heart. (Doesn’t hurt that historically, it happened to be basically true.) That’s what Yabushige glimpses right before his death. Toranaga is a wildly ambitious and megalomaniacal man who hides these darker qualities incredibly well. He is able to bend people to his will, even himself, ostensibly in the name of Japan. It just so happens that it all conveniently furthers his goal of becoming Shogun.
But I’m just one asshole and my interpretation isn’t any more or less valid than anyone else’s.