Maxwell Institute Podcast #163: How Do We Heed God’s Call for Racial Respect? Featuring Joseph Stuart

Rosalynde Welch: Hello, and welcome to the Maxwell Institute Podcast, where we seek out faith illuminating scholarship. I'm Rosalynde Welch, Associate Director at the Institute. This season we're exploring the questions we should be asking. Thanks for joining us.

I'm Rosalynde Welch, host of the Maxwell Institute Podcast. Today I'm speaking with Dr. Joseph Stuart, Assistant Professor of History at Brigham Young University. Dr. Stuart studies race and American religion. And we knew right away that we wanted to talk about Dr. Martin Luther King, and the ongoing fight for civil rights and racial harmony in our society. Joseph had the great idea to pair one of Dr. King's speeches with a related talk by Elder Dieter F. Uchtdorf. Both of these deeply Christian men challenge us to wake up to the world around us and look for our individual places in God's unfolding work of restoration. In his 2019 speech to the NAACP, President Nelson quoted 2nd Nephi 26:33, “Black and white bond and free, male and female, all are alike unto God.” And then he said, “You who are gathered here in this room, strive to make this heavenly truth an earthly reality. I commend you for it. And yet, we all realize that as a society and as a country, we have not yet achieved the harmony and mutual respect that would allow every man and woman and every boy and girl to become the very best version of themselves.”

In this conversation, Dr. Stuart and I talk about how we, as Latter-day Saints, can likewise strive to make the heavenly truth of racial equality an earthly reality. Dr. Stuart provides fascinating historical background for Martin Luther King's ministry. And he puts it all into a gospel context. Dr. Stuart's name and voice will be familiar to longtime listeners, because he hosted this podcast when he worked at the Institute as our Public Communication Specialist a few years ago. It was fun to welcome him back on the other side of the microphone. I hope you enjoy the interview.

Hello, Joey Stuart, and welcome to the Maxwell Institute Podcast!

Joseph Stuart: Well, it’s a treat to be on the other side of the mic this time!

Welch: I know! You and I have done a podcast before, but with roles reversed. Now, I'm the host, you're the guest. I'm so, so thankful that you were willing to come on today and spend some time with me talking about something that matters to me and I know matters to you. Today we are talking about hope. We're talking about vision. We're talking about the world that you and I want to live in, the world that our Heavenly Father wants us to live in, a world that is full of beautiful difference, but that is united. And in particular, we're talking about the visions of two men of this future and how we get to it. Listeners to the podcast will know that I always ask my guests to share with me a piece of writing that has meant something in both their intellectual life and their spiritual life. And Joey, you are always the overachiever, you actually shared with me two pieces of writing. Two wonderful speeches, one by Martin Luther King, Jr, which is titled Remaining Awake Through a Great Revolution. And then another one by Elder Uchtdorf entitled, Are you Sleeping Through the Restoration? So tell me Joey, why did you share these two pieces with me? What do you like about them? Why do they speak to you?

Stuart: That's a great question. I think I suggested them not only because they're related together, they're, in fact, Elder Uchtdorf specifically references that he’s using King's address, but also because I came to them at a particular time in my life. I was at the University of Virginia as a graduate student, and I was teaching seminary. And it was the first year that they were piloting teaching the Gospel Topics Essays in early morning seminary. And it was pretty incredible as a teacher to be able to share the things that I had learned about while I was a student at BYU, and to be able to talk to some subjects that I wish that someone had spoken to me about while I was growing up. And I found something really interesting, which was that none of the students had what we might think of as a “faith crisis” or a sort of “faith freakout” for lack of a better term when they learn new information that they hadn't before, but many of their parents did. And so the story of their parents is probably a story for another day. But the students wanted an active vision of okay, that happened in the past. How do I contribute to a better future in a faith that I deeply care about? And so Elder Uchtdorf was speaking in April 2014, while I was teaching. I just finished a graduate seminar looking at Dietrich Bonhoeffer and Martin Luther King Jr. taught by Charles Marsh. And so it was a real thrill to be able to say, “Students, I know that you want to make a difference in the world. Let's talk about some proactive things that we can do, that are witnesses to our faith, and also witnesses to our intellect, and our desire to make the world a better place, whether in the church or outside of it.”

Welch: Joey, that's something that you and I share. I also was an early morning seminary teacher and I can attest, there's something very hard about that calling. Lots of things hard about that calling. But there's something so special, and beautiful, almost magical, when you do make that connection, and the students are with you. And you're sharing something from your heart that really speaks and resonates with them. And I love that it was these two pieces together, that kind of brought them to life and connected you as student and teacher. Now, of course, you are an expert, you're an historian. And so you don't just approach these pieces religiously and spiritually, but also intellectually and in a scholarly way. So, set up Martin Luther King's speech for us, historically, and socially. When did he give it? Why? And what is he trying to teach us here in the speech?

Stuart: Yeah, that’s a really big question, in some ways, because King is such an enormous figure in American history. So where we are in King's life, this is following the March on Washington. This is after he received a Nobel Peace Prize. It's also after J. Edgar Hoover calls him “the most notorious liar in the country.” It is a few weeks before Bloody Sunday in Selma, Alabama, and the 1965 Voting Rights Act, one of the combinations of King's career will be passed in about six months from when he's delivering this address. He's also a young father with four kids under 10, that he and his wife, Coretta, was caring for as King was carrying on this local, regional, national and international movement for racial justice. As he's leading a significant contingent of the movement for black freedom and justice in the United States. So, he has a lot on his mind. He's not only thinking about what's happening at Oberlin College, where he's speaking, but he's thinking about what's happening at his house in Atlanta. He had just moved, and I think anyone that has just moved and knows how that can take over your life as well. He's also thinking about how an important figure in his life, Malcolm X, not that they were friends, but Malcolm X had recently been assassinated, as well. And so there's a lot going on domestically, but also internationally. Africa is continuing to decolonize, as well as in Southeast Asia, the war in Vietnam is raging on. Essentially, as a historian, it's impossible to say there's only one context in which you take King here, but maybe as two big takeaways. One at home, he's slowly becoming less and less popular in the American mind, even as he is achieving more and more. And then second, as a young father, he has responsibilities. His oldest is 10, his second youngest is nine, and his youngest is not quite two. And so he has many different concerns being pulled in many different directions. And I think that comes to the forefront here, in thinking about this specific address. If folks want to go to the Martin Luther King papers project at Stanford University, they can see one of the earlier iterations of this sermon that he gave in the late 1950s. And so this is something that speakers regularly do is they sort of repurpose what they've already said, because it can take so much time to prepare for each new audience. But one of the differences in this address is that he focuses so much more on nonviolence at home, but also abroad in here.

Welch: Yeah. So from the micro context, all the way up to the macro context, from his home to his nation, to the state of the world. He kind of feels himself at a point of inflection, a point of crisis, a point of urgency. And he brings that urgency to every word of this speech, starting from the title, Remaining Awake Through a Great Revolution. And he starts out with this anecdote. The title comes from the story about Rip Van Winkl, he sets up for us the idea of sleeping and waking, and how he's using that metaphor.

Stuart: Yeah, so King is following Washington Irving's short story on Rip Van Winkle where a man falls asleep for 20 years. And he wakes up in a world that he's completely unfamiliar with. But King in his really fascinating preaching and teaching style, because our attention to a small detail, where he extrapolates a lot of meaning and asks us to think along with him. So he says that when Rip Van Winkle falls asleep King George the Third is King of the British colonies. And when Rip Van Winkle wakes up, George Washington is President of the United States. Now you can only imagine how bewildering that would be in only a 20 year period. I think this is something that listeners to the podcast will recognize as well. If you had told me in 2003, that I would keep up with friends on Facebook, that I would listen to podcasts on the way to work, and that Twitter would deliver the latest news about the NBA to me, I would have had no idea what any of those three things were. We live in a very different world and 2023 than we did in 2003. But King connects this to thinking about the day-to-day actions that are taking place in the black civil rights movement, and thinking about how all of these new stories can become almost mundane, where people aren't able to keep up or pay attention to the day-to-day actions that are leading to this incredible movement for racial justice in the United States and throughout the world. And so he cautions us in a way to say, Are we sleeping through these significant changes, without even recognizing it? Is the world transforming before us and we are letting that transformation pass us by, rather than capitalizing on the many good things that are coming to pass?

Welch: Great. So yeah, so he asks us, “Are you asleep? Are you failing to witness and to recognize what's happening around you? Are you failing to contribute to what's happening around you?” But even more importantly, for King I think, sleeping means failing to adjust our mental outlooks. He says, “Are you failing to achieve the new mental outlooks that the new situation demands?” So if we are to be awake, to the way that the world is changing, the way that God is working in the world, the way that we're working together as God's hands in the world, we not only need to pay attention, we need to participate, but we need to make sure that our minds and our hearts are in the right place, as well. So summarize just briefly for us…He makes three points through his speech: what are the most important points he wants to convey about this great revolution that was happening in 1965?

Stuart: So, after King opens up the address, he explains Washington Irving's short story. And he goes through his travels throughout the world. And so I really love that he's connecting it not only to what's happening in the United States, but throughout the world. And he goes on to say, “All mankind is tied together, all life is interrelated. And we are all caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly affects all indirectly, for some strange reason I can never be what I ought to be, until you are what you ought to be. And you can never be what you want to be, until I am what I ought to be.” Essentially, to say that in this great revolution that the United States in the world was going through, that is a remarkable opportunity to recognize our interdependence on one another, to say this is not just justice for African Americans that I'm fighting for, it is justice for all of mankind. Because we cannot be who we need to be, until we can work together. I just really love that phrase that we are in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. So how are we going to get to where we want to go? We all have to rely on each other to be able to do that.

Welch: I love that. He has such a way with words in a way with metaphor in particular, and that idea that we are all connected and that my well being is connected with your well being. I think that's something that really resonates for Latter-day Saints, where we are fortunate to have such a strong sense of community.

Stuart: Yeah. And then with that, he said that he would like to mention that “We must unrelentingly pursue eradicating racial injustice in all of its dimensions.” So this is something that in teaching students at the University of Virginia at the University of Utah, and soon this fall at BYU, I've often come face to face with students who have said, “Oh, well, I don't use racial slurs, or I'm not a member of the Ku Klux Klan. So how am I approaching eradicating racism in my community if I'm not doing these things?” And I think that that's a really important thing, because, A: it marks out this sort of introspection about “Lord is it I?” How am I contributing to concerns about race, in my own communities in the nation and throughout the world? But I think that it also opens up the possibility of thinking, how is racial violence taking place in ways that I don't always see? And as a historian, we can think about how people have different skin colors or ethnic backgrounds, were allowed to live in certain places in the country, or in certain neighborhoods, and others weren't. We're thinking about the place of the GI Bill, which gave a major economic leg up to many white men who had fought in World War II, but left out many women and nearly all people of color from that sort of dimension. So, it opens up this broader conversation that in some ways can become so large that we lose track of “How can I make a difference?” Because, now I have this old Charlie Brown reference, where he throws a starfish back into the ocean. And Linus says, “Why did you do that? It doesn't make a difference.” He says, "It makes a difference to that one.” And so that resonates with me and thinking, “How do I become aware of the many things around me that I do not control, that I cannot fix all by myself, but that nevertheless, I have an obligation to pursuing a better world around me?” So King would say, unrelentingly get rid of racial injustice. A Latter-day Saint might say, “How am I building Zion in my words and my deeds and how I'm contributing to the world around me?”

Welch: So ultimately, maybe we use slightly different words. But I hear you saying that the vision is very much the same. There's this overarching global vision of a harmonious and loving and unified world. And we each have to contribute individually to get to that place, whether you use the word Zion, or whether you use a different vocabulary like Martin Luther King, Jr. does. We'll talk more about the “beloved community” later on in our interview, but the vision is the same.

Stuart: Yeah, absolutely. And one of his great final points is he says, “In the final analysis, racial injustice must be uprooted from American society because it is morally wrong. Segregation is morally wrong.” And I think about this all the time, that sometimes I can be hesitant to say, “Oh, you can't do that, because that is a sin.” And I'll feel judgmental, I'll feel like I'm somehow placing myself above others. But I think that not only as a historian, but as a Latter-day Saint, recognizing that we should pursue racial justice, because it's right, that it doesn't have to be politically easy. It doesn't have to be economically in my favor for it to happen, or whatever reason that folks may say, “Oh, I can't participate because of X, Y, or Z.” At the end of the day. racial justice is right, justice is right. And so that's another thing that I pull from King's speech is that, you know, we have all these reasons that we should move forward in pursuing racial justice, we can't be who we want to be, we will never become all that we can be until racial injustice is removed. But at the end of the day, it's a moral decision. And King would also say that it's a religious decision or a religious imperative, as well.

Welch: I also think as Latter-day Saints, we respond to that kind of moral clarity, right, we are trained to think about what is right and what is wrong. We sing: choose the right when a choice is placed before you. So, I think that kind of moral clarity and strong moral vision is something that really speaks to the Latter-day Saint heart and mind.

Stuart: It's also something that what President Nelson, President Oaks and others have taught us is that the time is now for Latter-day Saints to make a difference in the world of racial relations, to borrow something from President Uchtdorf later, but to “lift where you stand” and to do what you can immediately. Don't let time pass you by in that way.

Welch: Yeah. So King, he makes three points as you've led us through, he talks about our global brotherhood, the way that we're interconnected globally, he challenges us and makes it absolutely crystal clear, the moral imperative, of ridding our society of racial injustice. And then finally, his third major point is about how we get there. And he talks about non-violence, the Christian approach to the Great Revolution, that he's talking about here, tell us just a little bit about his third point.

Stuart: So we have to remember that King is first and foremost, a Christian. That's how he identifies, he is a follower of Jesus Christ. And we'll talk a little bit later about how he developed his philosophy. But it's important to recognize that he says that violence is never going to be the way to achieve harmony. Because violence, especially as it's rooted in hatred, or domination, can never do the work that love, specifically God's love for His creation, can do for others. And that's something that I think was as difficult to hear in 1965, as it is in 2023. It's not forcing other people to come to your worldview, it is loving them enough to be non-violent. Now, of course, this is not passive. This is not just laying in the gutter waiting for someone to make the world a better place. But it is proactively loving someone enough, that through your example, that through your demonstration of love for them, by refusing to harm them, you are going to make the world a better place both on the micro and in the macro scale.

Welch: That is so powerful, and in a lot of ways it is more challenging, and it's more difficult. It takes more creativity, and more courage to approach conflict in a non-violent way than it would to settle it violently. And as Latter-day Saints in the Book of Mormon. We have an amazing example of that.

Stuart: Yeah, so in the Book of Mormon in the book of Alma, there's a group called the Anti-Nephi-Lehies. And as a side note, at an EFY, I was once in the Anti-Nephi-Lehi group that had a great song: The Anti-Nephi-Lehies, we are pure and free from sin, we won't fight but we will win! And that sort of very basic understanding of the story is important, that they were not willing to pick up their weapons of war to harm the Lamanites that were actively coming to hurt them. They buried their weapons of war deep in the earth. And to me, that's just… we know how hard it's going to be to not be able to pick up those weapons when our enemies are here to hurt us. And again, they're not passively accepting violence. They're choosing to show the power of love to say that, we love you enough to not harm you despite the harm that you can do to us. I always thought that it was kind of funny to say the Anti-Nephi-Lehies. It's not SEO appropriate, we might say today. But I think that it's also showing a rejection of there are no -ites among us. We aren't Nephites, we aren't Lehites, we are all children of the same God. And in working together, this is something that Patrick Mason and David Pulsipher pulled together in their book called Proclaim Peace. And thinking about the way that a radical sort of love allows for the transformation not only of individuals, but of societies as well.

Welch: It's so amazing to think about that experience. We don't know that much about it with the Anti-Nephi-Lehies. But I wish I knew, how did they come up with their name? Everything about their experience, from their name, to this very symbolic action of burying their weapons of war that had both a practical import and an important kind of performative import, right, they were showing something to the world, they were displaying something to their enemies. Everything about their experience shows courage, creativity, a willingness to engage in necessary conflict, but a steadfast determination that it would not be a violent conflict.

Stuart: Absolutely. And also, willing to work in the long term rather than the short term. I think it's important to think about the ways that the Anti-Nephi-Lehies are thinking in the long term rather than the short term. There was a short term price to pay, people died, people mourned. People had to live the rest of their lives, living with the consequences of what happened afterwards. But at the same time, they had a steadfast resolution, that there was a plan, that there was a Savior of the world, that God would make all things right in the future.

Welch: So, let's dig in a little bit more to Martin Luther King's vision of racial harmony. This was the great theme of his ministry of his life, of his work, help us understand what he had in view, and whether we're there yet.

Stuart: Yeah. So, MLK talks a lot about the formation of a “beloved community.” And he has this idea of the “beloved community” that he develops from three influential thinkers in his life. And I think it's important to note too, that they are from three different continents. The first is Dietrich Bonhoeffer, who was a German theologian who opposed the Nazi regime in the 1930s and 1940s. And in the 1920s, he wrote a dissertation on philosophical theology related to Christian sociology. Which is a lot of ologies there. But essentially, it's to say, how do Christians worship together? And what are the hallmarks of a Christian community that are distinct from secular communities? And in short, he saw the necessity of Christians needing to reject the concept of the individual that have developed under Western modernism, the idea that it's not just about individual experience or individual belief, but rather, it's coming together, as he says, in a sanctified community or community of saints. And saying that it is much more about the group and what the religious people do as a group rather than the individual's conversion. Although of course, conversion is still important on an individual and group level as well. Bonhoeffer's conception of the Christian social community was changed when he was on an academic fellowship in New York, where he began to attend African American churches in Harlem and saw how their community worshiped. He especially fell in love with African American spirituals. And he saw the value that it had not only of worshiping together, but mourning and rejoicing together. And in this time, he talks about how this theology that he gets studied. He's actually in the process, he's going to write a second dissertation, which was a choice that he made. But he had thought a lot academically about what Christianity meant, and he had preached, and he was a deeply committed Christian. But when he saw the dynamics of African American social life in the United States, it really changed how we saw community, and thinking about Jesus being on the side of the oppressed, being with those who had reason not only to celebrate, but to mourn. And so he came from an upper-class German background, and he made black friends and traveled throughout the American South, which must have been a very different experience than he had grown up with in Germany. And so he finishes this fellowship, and he leaves the United States and goes back to Germany to see the rise of the Nazi movement. He soon splits from German Protestant churches who largely aligned with the Nazi movement and formed his own sort of monastery, where he wrote a book called Life Together. And Latter-day Saints may recognize one of Bonhoeffer central ideas from the book, the concept of cheap grace. In his summary. He says, “Cheap grace is the grace that we bestow on ourselves. Cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline, Communion without confession. Cheap grace is Grace without discipleship, grace without the cross race without Jesus Christ living and incarnate.” And so another way of thinking about this is, am I expecting Jesus to do things through His Atonement, that I am in no way willing to change my behavior or act in the world for? And this makes, as you can imagine, an enormous impression on King. Thinking about the ways that it's not only Christianity's truth, but it's the way that Christians are willing to exist in the world and fight for the better world they want to, or to pursue the better world that they want to. So one of the big changes to Bonhoeffer’s philosophy isn't just how do we form Christian communities. It's how are Christian communities going out into the world and making a difference. How are they living their witness by pursuing what is right and letting the consequences follow, outside of these monasteries that they've created fighting for a world that sees the sort of community that Jesus himself would want us to have?

Welch: So we see where these ideas of interconnection and action come from, in Martin Luther King's thought. What were some of the other ingredients that went into Martin Luther King's moral vision?

Stuart: Yeah, So the next big influence on MLK is an academic named Howard Thurman, who taught at Union Theological Seminary for many years. He wrote a book called Jesus and the Disinherited, that argues that Jesus Christ is the champion of the oppressed. So this goes from the Jews in ancient Palestine, to African Americans in the United States, and then colonized people throughout the globe. And to me, this resonates with an idea from the Book of Mormon, the idea in Alma 7, the truth in Alma 7, that Jesus Christ’s atonement does not only cover, sins, our mistakes are actively pursuing a life outside of God's commandments, but also that it speaks to how Jesus Christ takes upon himself, our sorrows, our afflictions. And maybe being a little bit more colloquial, but our bad days, our disappointment, our grief. And I would also add here, our oppression. And so, King is really interested in this idea that God is on the side of those who don't have power, and is anxious to create an equal community by bringing the high low and the low high.

Welch: I love that. And we can see that here, he talks about going to India, and seeing the poorest of the global poor there, and calling us to contemplate our own wealth in the face of their poverty, and asking us to make that inequality right. I can see those ideas alive in his work there. Anything else you'd like to add about Martin Luther King's vision of racial harmony?

Stuart: Yeah. And actually, because you mentioned India, that King owes a lot of his thought to Mahatma Gandhi, who is not a Christian, but teaches principles that I think resonate with a lot of Christians throughout the world, especially- he is the first person to successfully lead a non-violent revolution. Which is to say that he forms these ideas that the oppressed will not fight back with violence, but will love their enemies, to the point where they are changing hearts and minds. And they are choosing to act on the side of justice of their own accord, rather than being forced to buy military victory. And this is enormous for King. So, King sees this specifically as the Christian God's love for others, as the only way to change hearts and minds, but also to create lasting communities that are able to escape oppression. So, King teaches as early as 1957, that the aftermath of non-violence is the creation of the beloved community, while the aftermath of violence is tragic bitterness. So he sees a very “pick a road” here. Do we choose non-violence in the creation of a beloved community? Or do we choose violence, tragic bitterness, and an inability to solve the large problems that we are trying to, through pursuing social change?

Welch: I hope you're enjoying my conversation with Dr. Joseph Stuart. He's been highlighting the gospel themes in Martin Luther King's vision of racial harmony. I was especially struck by the importance of Christ's teachings about love as the foundation of the human community, about the central role of the poor in spirit and other disadvantaged groups in the kingdom of God, and about the peaceful, non-violent approach that Jesus taught. In the second half of the interview, we bring Elder Uchtdorf’s talk, Are you Sleeping Through the Restoration? into conversation with Martin Luther King. Dr. Stuart gets specific about ways that we can implement President Nelson's charge to make racial harmony an earthly reality in our wards and communities. If you're excited by Dr. King's vision of global solidarity across ethnic and national lines, I wanted to recommend the Institute's recent publication, Every Needful Thing: Essays on the Life of the Mind and the Heart. This special book contains essays by Latter-day Saints scholars from all around the world; we think it's probably the most globally inclusive volume of its kind. To me, the contributions of these diverse disciple-scholars are endlessly inspiring. You can find it on Amazon, or Deseret Book, at mi.byu.edu, and linked in the Show Notes to this episode. And with that, we'll get back to my interview with Dr. Joseph Stuart.

So, you've brought out and brought together for us these large overarching themes in Martin Luther King's vision, our interconnection one with another, and yet our individual responsibility to act within our own spheres and the ways that we're called to. This idea of justice and equality as the God's vision for his family, and the idea of non-violence, right, of choosing a gentle and non-violent, yet courageous and bold way to achieve these ends. Joey, you are an historian of race and religion in the United States. And so your professional expertise positions you uniquely to kind of contextualize Martin Luther King's message for us in mid-century America. Tell us a little bit more about your research.

Stuart: So, my research addresses the Nation of Islam, which is a small religious group that-if folks have read the autobiography of Malcolm X, Malcolm is a member of the Nation of Islam for quite some time before converting to Sunni Islam at the end of his life. So, my research looks at those who did not see integration as the answer. So, I was really struck by this because I'm also finishing up a Master's thesis when I'm encountering this sermon, this speech by MLK and hearing from President Uchtdorf, that what the Nation of Islam is saying is that where the Nation of Islam was coming from saying, we've been pursuing racial justice for centuries, and nothing has happened. It's something that King is going to talk about, in his address, perhaps obliquely, by talking about time, and what he'll later call the “fierce urgency of now.” The need to work for a better world today, if not this minute, so that the world doesn't pass us by, so that we don't sleep through a revolution.

Welch: Well, you bring up one of the lines that was most compelling to me, in this speech by Martin Luther King. He says this, “Let nobody give you the impression that only time will solve the problem. That is a myth. And it is a myth, because time is neutral. It can be used either constructively, or destructively.” And something about that phrase, “time is neutral,” just jumped out at me. What did he mean by this idea that time is neutral? And if time is neutral, what does that mean for us? What's our responsibility?

Stuart: Yeah, I love that you pulled this out, because the first time that I saw the “time is neutral” quote, actually wasn't from Martin Luther King, it was on Instagram as a sort of motivational quote. Oh, Beyonce also only has 24 hours in a day, or Lin Manuel Miranda or whoever, essentially saying you need to be hustling harder to get ahead in life. And let me be clear, I don't think that's what King is saying. But I do think that it points to the ways that King’s messages can sometimes be distorted to aims that have nothing to do with what King was talking about. So King says here, what he had said in the letter from Birmingham Jail, and what he had said in other places: that folks need to act now. What King is saying is that time just is, and that may seem kind of silly, if you're just reading what I just said, on a transcript or something like that. But that time is neither good nor bad. It can be used to construct, or it can be used to destroy. So King is saying that we need to proactively choose to use our time to make other people's lives better. So, in using his metaphor of sleeping through a revolution, it's saying: Look, sleeping through, it doesn't mean that the revolution isn't happening, it doesn't mean that you are absolved from the moral aims of this revolution, or that you won't inhabit a world that requires you to adjust to these new expectations. He’s saying that how you use your time has a lot to say about your pursuit of, of the good that you want to see in the world. What I think is important is this fierce urgency of now, and thinking about the things that we owe not only to ourselves or to our families or to our nation, but the world.

Welch: Joey, have you done any good in the world today? Have you helped anyone in need? We sing this hymn, right, that has the same idea, stand up and do something more than dream of your mansions on high, right? We have that ethos in our own tradition, that Christ is coming, Jesus is coming, the Second Coming is going to happen. But that doesn't mean we can just sit back and be swept along by time. Time is neutral, it's not going to automatically sweep us where we need to go. We have to build Zion. This is so unique to our tradition that we pair the idea of the Second Coming with the idea of building Zion. And we get to that Second Coming by doing what we can now, today, to build that community and a big part of it, as Martin Luther King has reminded us and as President Nelson has reminded us, and shown in his own actions; a big part of that is rooting out any racism, or racial prejudice, that mars the fellowship, and the unity that we feel as the family of God. It's so easy to come back to Latter-day Saint theology and teachings because Martin Luther King himself was such a religious man. He was a preacher. He was deeply Christian, as you mentioned. Share with us just a little bit about how his conviction and his vocation as a preacher show up in this speech.

Stuart: I think that King’s greatest marker of his Christianity is that in this speech and throughout his speeches, he's never saying this is going to be politically easy. He's never saying this is what would make sense for us to do electorally, to achieve what we need to. He is constantly appealing to is this right, or is this wrong? Are we Christians? Or are we not? Does he want us to all come together in a way that creates better here and now in preparation for what is to come after death? Or does he want us to sit idly by? And of course, the answer to all these things and kings mind is, if we are going to be Christians, we have to live an act every single day with a fierce urgency that I can make a difference in the world today, every day of our lives.

Welch: I love that. We've been talking about the speech by Martin Luther King Remaining Awake Through a Great Revolution. As you shared with us. He delivered the speech at Oberlin College in June 1965. Now let's fast forward about 50 years, I think 49 years if my math is correct to another speech by another prophetic voice, Elder Dieter F. Uchtdorf, who in April of 2014, delivered a talk at General Conference entitled, Are You Sleeping Through the Restoration? And he opens it with the very same anecdote from Washington Irving's Rip Van Winkle, the idea of falling asleep for 20 years waking up, seeing that the picture on the wall of the Tavern is no longer King George, but George Washington, and realizing that you just slept through the biggest change that your society has seen. So, tell us a little bit more about other than drawing the title and that example. Are there any other resonances between Elder Uchtdorf’s talk, and Martin Luther King's speech?

Stuart: Yeah, so I think that in the beginning, he ties them together really nicely, President Uchotdorf said that sometimes we think of the Restoration of the Gospel as something that is complete, already behind us. Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon, we have the priesthood keys, the church was organized, when in reality, the restoration is an ongoing process. We are living in it right now. And it brings to mind ideas that the church is not only true, but living. That we are not only going to see change, but that we should expect to see changes in our church. And so, while I think that it's crucial that he's tying ideas about sleeping through a revolution and sleeping through the restoration, what I think ties the two together is saying, what are we doing in the here and now to not just live life but to actively participate in it? The philosopher David Foster Wallace said that sometimes it can be like asking a goldfish, what does water taste like? And because it's what the goldfish has always known, goldfish can't describe what water tastes like. Or President Packer using the example of salt. Can you describe what salt tastes like without referring to salt itself? What are these two men who are giving us this idea of what are we doing in the here and now to make the world a better place? They're asking us what are we doing to act in a way that allows us not only to live through the restoration or revolution, but to actively participate in it.

Welch: To be awake for it, to not miss God working in the world, to not miss what God is teaching us and doing with us and for us and leading us to right now, in this moment. Now, Elder Uchtdorf doesn't specifically talk about race and inequality. Like King, he goes on to make three points. He urges us to rise up out of selfishness. He urges us to free ourselves from the chains and limitations of all different kinds of addiction. And he urges us to focus on what matters most, right, to banish the distractions of competing priorities that might be okay, but are not central to the work of the restoration. So, he doesn't mention race and inequality, specifically, but I think they are deeply resonant with what Elder Uchtdorf says in this talk. And with the vision of the restoration and Zion in general. How do you think that race and class and equality are implicated in the work of the restoration and the vision of Joseph Smith?

Stuart: So, I've always been struck that the very first lesson that we are asked to teach our children preparing for baptism, or for non-members of the church who are investigating the church, the very first principle that we teach is that God is our loving Heavenly Father. We're thinking about the previous Young Women's theme that we are children of heavenly parents that love us, and we love them. And I think that that's a message that permeates through every gospel message that I hear. We are all beloved children of heavenly parents. What are we doing to honor that reality? So for President Uchtdorf, he may say we need to overcome the sin of selfishness. We need to work on our addictions so that we can break free of the things that prevent us from doing the things that we want to do most. But I don't think that we can really separate that from the broader ethos of how are we treating God's children? And how are we putting ourselves in a position to be able to help God's children? There are different ways of approaching the scriptures or approaching General Conference. Some people really like quotes, some people really like to be able to rely on the text. What is said and how can I follow that to the letter? And I admire that. And that's something that I have learned a lot from. But I think that there's also a different approach that can say, what are the general themes that are taught, and how am I going to incorporate that into my worldview, so that the totality of my person is becoming the person that Savior wants me to be? Whether it is specifically laid out or not. Things don't have to be specifically laid out for them to be good things for us to do. We're not supposed to be commanded in all things, we're supposed to be able to, through the best books, through learning from church leaders from, as it says, in the Maxwell Institute, mission statement, to be able to engage the world of religious ideas to find best practices and ideas. I don't think that President Uchtdorf has to say, don't be racist, don't be sexist, don't be misogynist, or don't think about class differences in his talk, for that to have direct application to the ways that Latter-day Saints should interact in the world.

Welch: I absolutely agree. And part of waking ourselves up and freeing ourselves from these limitations is becoming alive to those realities, and to doing something to address them. Joey, we hear a lot about diversity. We hear about diversity in school contexts in work contexts, and political contexts. Tell us about diversity in a restoration context. Is diversity good?

Stuart: Absolutely. I love this quote from Elder Joseph Wirthlin, who said that God didn't create a vibrant orchestra, just to have the piccolos of the world take over the music that's being played. And I think about that in terms of how we can work together to create a larger Zion for ourselves and for future generations. And I also see a sort of restoration approach to diversity and a good, better, best sort of model. So the good is that we've been commanded by the Savior and His prophets to root out racism, to end inequality, to do what we can to treat others as children of heavenly parents who love them. And I would say, just like, I would say, people who do their ministering assignment or show up to church just because they're told to-great, I don't care why you're here, I'm glad that you're here. The Lord can do things with people who want to do good, but we have to show up first. I think that the better approach to it might be a sort of utilitarian approach. Diversity benefits me and my communities. When I learn from other people, I become a better person. When my community is more diverse and has different ideas, we can find different ways to minister to others. We can become a better organization on the ward level, or a business level or a school level, or whatever, by diversity of ideas, diversity of engaging people from different backgrounds. But I would say that the best is learning how to recognize that our differences allow us to succeed in ways that we could not if we were only pursuing things on our own. That if we only pursued one way of doing things, I think that it would stop us from finding the revelation necessary that we need to create better societies around us. That it's only when we come to points when we don't know what to do when we recognize that we need to listen to others that, that's when the Lord is able to bless us to recognize, okay, there are many different ways of approaching this problem through the Spirit, I'm going to… I'm going to impress upon you the things that would do the most good for the most people through your decision making.

Welch: So diversity, having a spectrum of different perspectives and positions and life experiences, those can all contribute to our collective kind of spiritual imagination. And when our mind and our hearts and our imagination is opened in this way, then the Spirit can come in and can highlight for us: Yes, this is a good way to go. Let's try this. Let's try this. This is something new. Let's see where this leads. So diversity makes us collectively able to receive guidance from the spirit.

Stuart: Yeah, absolutely! I also think about what Paul said about how the foot can't say of the hand or the eye that “I have no need of thee,” or if you put it more colloquially, from Laurel Thatcher Ulrich, “All God's critters got a place in the choir.” They can't say that one creature doesn't deserve to be here, but I do. We all have to work together. Now, of course, I'm thinking about High School Musical. But, we all have to find ways of embracing the things that make us different in a way that can create the best outcomes for ourselves as individuals, but also for our communities and the broader world at large. Every day that you and I drive them to BYU, we see a sign that says: Enter to learn, go forth to serve. And I think about that every time I come in, and I think about seeing what friends and family members are just telling members of the faith are doing. Truly that's what we're trying to do as Latter-day Saints. We are trying to change the world for the better using our many diverse talents to showcase the love that God has for each other us.

Welch: Our theme for the season of this podcast is asking better questions. And we selected that because I think that asking better questions can lead to better answers and better solutions, and better ways forward to transform the world in just the way you were talking about. So, Joey, what are some better questions that we can ask ourselves around these questions of racial equality, and the harmony that we want to find in our Zion community?

Stuart: Thanks for the opportunity to think about this. I think that some of the questions are actually questions that we are used to talking about already. Have I done any good in the world today? Being the first one. How am I working in the world in a way that brings about God's love? So, how am I working in the world so that other people can experience God's love and recognize it for what it is? The other question that I would ask is, am I listening to other people and learning from their experiences about how I can better participate in the world? This is something that listening to students from backgrounds who are not like mine has taught me a lot about how to be a better teacher, how to make circumstances easier for them to succeed in. What is it? Another question we could be asking ourselves is, are we curious enough to learn from others, so that we can work better with them to create the world that we want to live in?

Welch: I love it. So if I'm hearing you, you're saying maybe we switch over from these really huge, large scale questions like: How is racism going to be solved? And instead, we ask ourselves, What have I done today? And what is my neighbor saying? What can I learn from my neighbor? Those might be the better questions that in the short term, in the near term can lead us to concrete steps and concrete actions that little by little, as Martin Luther King has shown us, are going to take us to that beloved community that we're aiming for.

Stuart: Yes, absolutely. I think that this is something as a historian, as an educator, I think that we can often see the big picture and become frustrated, because we can't solve it all at once. But there's such a power in all of us making individual choices and individually working together that will allow us to be the good that we want to see in the world.

Welch: Joey, I always like to end these interviews by giving my guests a chance to share any concrete insights from the piece of writing or from their scholarly background, that could be useful to listeners, in their personal lives, in their jobs in their wards in their communities, I really believe that what happens in our offices should have real effects in the real world. And that the work that scholars like you and I do, can benefit people who are not scholars. So I'd like to give you a chance to share any concrete insights that you'd like to.

Stuart: Yes, I think, actually, to go back to the previous answer, that we need to learn to listen better. We need to listen to people when they say that things are good. We need to listen, when people say that things need to change, and that we have an obligation to mourn with those who mourn, to comfort those who stand in need of comfort, and to work together to points where they are no longer mourning or no longer in need of comfort, so far as in their jobs or their ward. In addition to listening, I think that we can also think about not only the individual context that we live in, not only our families and communities, but also thinking about the broader nations and world around us, how in a changing world are we participating in a revolution that ultimately shows how much we value each person, as a child of God.

Welch: Really listening to what the world is telling us through our friends and our neighbors around us through the circumstances that we observe, and then staying awake to witness it. That's what we're called to do by Elder Uchtdorf, by Martin Luther King. It takes a lifetime, I think of practice and of courage and of energy to reach that ideal. But Joey, you've inspired me today to work a little harder and to ask myself what I've done in the world today, and I thank you for your time and your wisdom here on the Maxwell Institute Podcast.

Stuart: It was a pleasure. Thanks so much Rosalynde.

Welch: Thanks for listening to the Maxwell Institute podcast. If you enjoyed the episode, please subscribe and give us a rating or review on the platform where you listened. For updates about the Maxwell Institute, follow us on our social media platforms @BYUMaxwell and sign up for our newsletter at mi.byu.edu Join us next time, and take care.