The Lithuanian-born actor Ingeborga Dapkūnaitė, who was Living and working in Russia for years, packed up and, together with her 5-year-old son, left their adopted country soon after Russian troops invaded Ukraine. She should have done it earlier, she says, but refuses to put blame on all Russians for the invasion and is uneasy about calls to boycott everything Russian.
One of the most successful Lithuanian actors, Dapkūnaitė played opposite Brad Pitt in Seven Years in Tibet (1997) and Tom Cruise in the very first installment of Mission: Impossible (1996). She has also worked in the UK, though her best-known works have been on Russian stage and film, such as in Nikita Mikhalkov’s Oscar-winning Burnt by the Sun (1994).
Read more: To be or not to be in Russia, a huge dilemma for Lithuanian artists – interview
In one of her recent roles, Dapkūnaitė played Russian ambassador in the Norwegian hit series Occupied. Set in the near future, the series imagines Russia occupying Norway in order to control its oil production. The face of the occupation, Dapkūnaitė’s Ambassador Irina Sidorova is the conflicted villain of the story.
In an interview with LRT.lt – conducted this week in Brussels – Dapkūnaitė discusses her reactions to the war in Ukraine, why she does not support blanket boycotts, and whether she plans to return to Russia.
We are meeting in Brussels. Why are you here and when did you leave Russia?
I left Russia some time ago. For various reasons, but perhaps the most important is that there is what they call a special military operation... And here I am because my family is here, my sister and my mother.
They call it that, but what do you call it, what do you think of the war that Russia has started?
I condemn the Russian government's invasion of Ukraine’s territory.
Was that the main reason for your departure?
Yes.
From the first days of the invasion, you did not make any strong public statements, and it was only a couple of weeks later, when it started to be publicised, that you posted on Instagram a letter addressed to your son, saying that you found the war against Ukraine incomprehensible – the deaths, the bombing, the destruction. Why did you remain silent for so long?
When the war broke out, on the morning of February 24, my entire world changed. Our charity, the Hospice Aid Foundation Vera (‘Faith’ in Russian), together with other charities Give Life, Children of Butterflies – a very large number of people, probably about 500 signatures – we signed a letter saying that we are against the war, urging to stop the military action in Ukraine. It was very soon, maybe on February 25. And my signature is there, so it seemed to me that my position was very clear.
The Russian government readily uses culture – theatre, music, film – as soft power tools to spread its ideology. That is probably why a strong public condemnation is expected from culture workers in Russia.
It is easy for me to talk, unlike for my friends who have remained in Russia. I left, I can live somewhere else, while most people there have parents, children, no financial means. It does not mean that they support [the war in Ukraine], but it is much more difficult for them than for me to express opposition, although many of my friends have left and express their opinion in every possible way, and they are doing real work.
It is easy for me to talk, unlike for my friends who have remained in Russia. I left, I can live somewhere else, while most people there have parents, children, no financial means.
Still, you did post the letter a couple of weeks later, which may not be a strong condemnation, but the message that you do not support the war is quite clear, and you presented it in the form of a letter to your son. Did you feel pressure to do so?
No, I posted the letter under no pressure. I thought that we were going through a historical event. Very vivid, very clear – although no, perhaps not that clear [hesitates]… But it is history, books will be written about it, people will talk about it for years, because it is a watershed moment. Russia’s war in Ukraine is probably one of the biggest events of the 21st century. I may be exaggerating, but this is my dilettante opinion about politics, from someone who knows nothing about politics.
And I think that my son, when he grows up, will ask me what my position was. And I have written what I would like to say to my son: I believe that everything that has been built over the last 30 years is now being destroyed – the ties, the open world, opportunities to travel. One day someone will have to rebuild it, and I think that will be his task. I very much hope that it can be done.
How do you explain to your son what is happening in general?
I told him that we might not be going home for the time being. He is still very young. I think that conversation will have to happen soon.
Do you support the boycott of Russian artists in Western countries?
If we talk about Russians who do not support the war and who, for example, leave the country, but no one wants to take them in because they are Russians – of course, one could say that this is wrong, because they are the ones who do not support what is happening in Russia.
But one can understand the Ukrainians, whose homes are being bombed, whose countrymen are dying, and for whom the Russians are one single entity. There was a case in Germany where Germans organised a Ukraine support event and invited Ukrainian and Russian performers who had left Russia. The Ukrainians refused to go on stage with the Russians. Of course, one can say they are wrong, but one can understand them. As one can understand the Russians wanting to go on stage and support the Ukrainians.
The audience has to decide for itself, we cannot behave as if we are their nanny, they are not 5 years old.
Are you hurt by this so-called cancel culture?
I do not like it. I would answer this question in a broader way – it is a question of censorship of what can be shown on stage and what cannot. What can be banned and what cannot. The audience has to decide for itself, we cannot behave as if we are their nanny, they are not 5 years old. I can say to my child: no, you do not watch this film, it will have a bad influence on you. It is up to the audience to decide what they want to watch and what they do not want to watch. And if an audience member does not want to see a performance that contains, for example, bad language, you need to tell them that there is censorious language in this play, you may be offended by it, and that person will not go there. Or [the films of the Danish filmmaker] Lars von Trier – a person can choose not to watch this. [...]
Let me clarify, I understand that artists have to be free, and you yourself used the example of the event in Berlin where Ukrainians did not want to go on stage with Russian performers, even if they condemned the war. But is it then necessary to give a stage to openly pro-Putin, pro-Kremlin actors and musicians?
That is a very good question [long silence]. For example, there was an orchestra that refused to play with a particular musician. That’s their right. We now live in a world where there is white and black, it is very difficult to see any greys. I was once told that it is like standing on two pieces of ice at once – it cannot be done, you will fall into the water.
You say strongly that you condemn the war, but you would get on stage with someone who openly supports Putin and the “special military operation”, as Russia calls it?
Everyone has the freedom to have their own opinion and I should respect it. I have a different opinion, I condemn the war, but an artist is an artist. I do not know [how I would behave] in a specific case, but they nonetheless have the freedom to have their own opinion.
But you wouldn’t feel that you have betrayed your principles? After all, this is a real war, people are being killed, wouldn’t you feel bad about yourself?
I don’t know. Maybe. When there is a concrete situation, I will decide.
Everyone has the freedom to have their own opinion and I should respect it. I have a different opinion, I condemn the war, but an artist is an artist.
I’m asking this because it seems that some artists, while condemning war, try to walk a fine line when it comes to giving up work. What you are saying reminds me a little of trying to stand on those two pieces of ice.
You are right [smiles]. I just don’t think this dilemma will present itself soon. Unfortunately, the curtain is coming down. I don’t know, I would love to be wrong.
The curtain is coming down on what?
There was an iron curtain once, but 30 years ago that curtain went up, and now it is coming down again.
Between Russia and the West?
Yes.
Does that hurt you?
How can it not be painful when the world is splitting into two? My life... the whole world is falling apart. Our greatest joy was to be able to go to places with our theatre company and to show our work abroad – to leave the former Soviet Union. And now that will no longer be possible. Probably. I don't know, maybe things will change.
We spoke before the interview and you said it was a mistake that you didn’t leave Russia in 2014, after the annexation of Crimea. Did I understand you correctly?
If it were possible to predict the future and change the past... But yes, I was wrong. I made a mistake and I have no excuses for myself.
Another famous Russian actress, Chulpan Khamatova, immediately fled to Latvia and has given a number of interviews, but she has chosen an interesting form. My impression is that she is not talking about the war to the Western world, but is trying to find a channel to address the Russian people themselves. What do you think an artist who does not accept what is happening should do?
Khamatova and I are friends and I have a lot of respect for her, because she has done an enormous amount of good work and she is an amazing artist. And she speaks to her own people, the Russians. I have always felt like a guest in Russia and I don’t think I have the right [to speak to them]. Yes, I have an audience, I have a lot of respect for them and I am very grateful that I have or had them. […]
My friends mostly do not support the war, and it is very difficult for them, they feel ashamed and guilty about what is happening, about living in that country. And not everybody has the courage to go out on the street.
One of your roles was in the Norwegian TV series Occupied, about Russia occupying Norway. The current events in Ukraine are unimaginably worse. Have you seen any signs in Russian society, have you sensed a public mood that there will be no resistance to the war, how could that be explained?
Fear, arrests, propaganda. Not all people agree with what is happening, but those who don’t agree have children, parents, or are parents themselves, they cannot pack their bags and leave like that, it is not that simple. It is difficult to change your life, I have done it many times in my life and it is not that easy.
I do not know, for example, what percentage of Russians support the war or do not support the war, but my friends mostly do not support the war, and it is very difficult for them, they feel ashamed and guilty about what is happening, about living in that country. And not everybody has the courage to go out on the street.
But then what should happen, what should be the impetus to go out and protest?
Maybe my circle is too small. And, frankly speaking, I have been out of Russia for a month, I do not know what is in people’s heads and what the mood is now. In three days, the laws were changed, so much was changed. What has happened in Russia over these 35 days – it is difficult to say. […]
Will you go back to live in Russia, if it doesn’t accept its responsibility in the Ukrainian tragedy?
I don’t know. It is difficult to answer that question now, and perhaps things will change. I cannot be a prophet, but it does not seem realistic to me today.
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