The Big Picture

• The actors discuss their favorite science fiction stories, mentioning Dune and the works of Ursula K. Le Guin as influential.
• Lee Pace explains his approach to portraying his character's balance between petulant behavior and terrifying leadership, emphasizing his rejection of his artificial intelligence upbringing.
• Laura Birn discusses the challenge of expressing her character's emotions solely through her eyes and explores the complicated relationship between her character and Pace's character as a love story with elements of manipulation and imprisonment.

This interview was conducted before the ongoing SAG-AFTRA & WGA strikes. The science fiction gem of a show, Apple TV+'s Foundation, just wrapped up its second season and took its story to even more expansive places than it had before. Though there are many characters in the series, at the center of this was the relationship between Lee Pace's Brother Day and Laura Birn's Demerzel who have a seemingly endless amount of messiness going on. We talked with the two actors about this relationship, what science fiction has inspired them, and the connection their characters have.

COLLIDER: I've been asking this question of everyone to start off because this show is about foundational knowledge and I was curious, is there a science fiction story, be it a series or film or a novel, that has been foundational to you all?

LEE PACE: I could throw out Dune as one that I love, but also, one of my favorite writers is Ursula K. Le Guin. I love this universe that she creates that is based on respect and consent and, like, a great sense of the wild. I could go on and on about that, but I know you have a limited amount of time [laughs], so there's my answer.

Another time! Laura, how about yourself?

LAURA BIRN: I'm very new to the whole sci-fi world. When I got this, when I auditioned for the show, I didn't know very much of sci-fi, so now I'm entering this whole new universe. Before that, obviously, I have always loved Blade Runner, which is amazing, but then I kind of went and rewatched all of that and studied different kinds of AI films. But Blade Runner would still be one of my absolute favorites. I did love Ava [Alicia Vikander] in Ex Machina, as well, but entering all these new roles has been just an amazing adventure for me.

Oh yeah, absolutely. When you, Lee, had said Dune, the author of Dune actually grew up where I am now, which is always very interesting. There's a similar thing, in fact, when I was thinking about watching this in terms of a leader that kind of reveals himself to be maybe not the best person to follow, and the way you play your character is a combination of petrifying and also petulant. I think of the closing monologue, which was terrifying, at the end of Season 1, and then a lot of this in Season 2 where you're shouting and behaving childishly, but that only makes it more terrifying. How did you approach that balance of those two things that kind of complement each other?

PACE: This is a very particular emperor. His conditions are very particular. He is raised by an artificial intelligence who has groomed him for this position and needs him to function in a very specific way, and the Cleon that I play in this season is rejecting that. The Cleon in this season is saying, “No, actually, I'm going to write my own destiny. I am an individual. I am not someone's clone. I'm going to do it the way I want to do it.” And I think stepping out on the edge of the cliff like that is a terrifying thing for him. He's got an ego, like, “I've got it. Don't you worry about me. If anyone can do it, it's me.” But I think it's an emotional experience, and I think it leaves him a little bit in the wilderness because he doesn't have, always, the support of this relationship that thinks for him. He's the emperor of the galaxy, but he's not really permitted or expected to think, and he's starting to. And I think the way he thinks is in a very primitive way, which is, “I want, I'm gonna go get, and if anyone stands in my way, I'm gonna kill.” It's a primitive way of thinking, it is. He's angry and violent, but it works for him. [Laughs]

That is a great way to end that. He's making it work. I then wanted to ask, kind of getting to the craft of it, Laura, you embody a character that is not human where you have to have a very strong command of your physical performance. You had referenced Ex Machina, and I was thinking a lot about that, but then in your eyes, they speak volumes where we can see what it is that's going on no matter what. Moving into this season and the evolution of your character, what was it that you were kind of approaching it with in regards to that?

BIRN: In this season, we get to the extreme version of being able to only express yourself with your eyes when she's imprisoned, when Cleon I actually finds her. As an actor, that was just an amazing challenge because it's very unique. She has a fight for her freedom, for her life, but she can only move her eyes, and she has her words, so she has her knowledge, but she can't do anything. The writing is so beautiful in that one, and it was just an amazing challenge because it kind of puts you in a box that you have to kind of operate with very small things, and it was beautiful.

Then I think what is so intriguing with the story is that we learned that her mission is to protect the genetic dynasty, and she will do anything that takes to protect it, but at the same time, thinking about it, ending the genetic dynasty would mean freedom for her also. Where does she operate with the paradox inside her, like, does she have dreams of her own? What does she dream of? Is she only kind of commanded by her programming, which goes the same with the feelings that she has for the Cleons. I feel like their story that begins with that very still moment in that dungeon is an absurd, painful, traumatic, and yet at the same time, weirdly beautiful love story. Exploring that was a lot of fun.

It's a very complicated relationship in that they're lovers, but also one of them was effectively raised by the other one. Lee, when you first read the script for this season, what was your impression of it, and what was it that you were immediately thinking of, “Here's how we can wrap our heads around this?”

PACE: The scripts came, I read the first scene, and I was like, “Oh, that's hot,” like, “Absolutely. Why not?” [Laughs] “That seems like it's in this world.” But as I got to Episode 5 and I saw that there's that scene with Sareth [Ella-Rae Smith], where he's in bed with another woman and he can't get an erection, and he's, I think, questioning, like, “What happened? How did that happen?” But I do get the erection with Demerzel. I think you see how deep the conditioning is with her. It becomes apparent in those next episodes that this sexual relationship that he believes in, that he allows himself to be intimate with her, to trust her and no one else, that's a part of what helps inflate his ego, is this trust he has in her support, that it's a bit of manipulation and that it's something that he doesn't want to do anymore.

It's the first time I kind of felt a little bit of sympathy for Cleon because before, in Season 1, I was like, “Oh, we're gonna watch these guys suffer.” [Then] I kind of identified them as someone who already is suffering, someone who's already imprisoned in a way by someone who he thinks is his property, he thinks she's a piece of technology that he owns and can do with what he likes, but in reality, her intellect far exceeds his. Her power of understanding and the way in which she has, from the day of his birth, imprinted herself upon his heart, it's pretty complicated. [Laughs]

BIRN: But the tragedy of them both being imprisoned by each other, kind of like her giving birth again and again to a new innocent child who's actually the one who imprisons her, it's just…

PACE: It's no excuse for what you did! [Laughs]

BIRN: [Laughs] Complicated it is.

All episodes of Foundation are now streaming on Apple TV+.