Towing and Payload Rating Guide

ccw · Apr 15, 2021

For a quick reference table for the Tremor numbers, check out @soop’s The TREMOR Towing Table.

To get a rough idea of how much weight you'll have on each axle when loaded, checkout @shermanator2's Weight and Balance spreadsheet.

I have seen many questions come up in various threads both on this forum and throughout the internet about towing and payload ratings. I am writing this post as a definitive guide to the terms, numbers, and calculations. This is based off researching how these numbers work over the last number of years and running the numbers for my own truck, including taking my truck over a scale.

This guide applies first and foremost to the US, with significant overlap with Canada. For any readers outside of the US and Canada, I believe much of this information will still apply but I cannot say for sure.

If I have gotten something wrong or missed something, please let me know and I will update the main posts so they can remain the reference.

In this I will refer to the Ford specific towing guide, but all the logic and terms apply to all vehicles – not just Tremors, Fords, or trucks.

In the guide I will refer to safety maximums. This is all in principle. In practice people frequently exceed these limits. That is a personal choice where you should weigh the risks based on your usage. This guide helps you know the manufacturer numbers that play into those risks.

Throughout this guide I will reference the Ford towing guide. You can find the 2021 version here, which is the specific one I will be referencing: https://www.fleet.ford.com/content/...-guides/2021_Ford_RVandTrailerTowingGuide.pdf

To find the towing guide for other model years, simply search for “XXXX Ford towing guide”, where XXXX is the model year relevant to you. They all contain the same fundamental information and are organized similarly, though exact page numbers and table formats may differ.

Something important I want to highlight up front: the advertised maximum ratings, for payload and towing, truly are maximums. They require a very specific vehicle configuration to achieve, and the vast majority will not fit that. The only way to get accurate numbers is to look them up and, for payload, that means looking at the door sticker.

Salespeople often fail to understand this, or intentionally mislead buyers, and reference the maximum numbers regardless of configuration. As an example of how wildly payload capacity can swing, a Ram 1500 can have a maximum payload capacity pushing 2000 pounds; however, in a top trim with the EcoDiesel the payload capacity will be around 900 pounds. That is lower than most minivans!

Edit 1 - Courtesy of some fantastic feedback from @hedge, I have made the following changes:

Updated the Payload section to include a definition for Maximum Tire Load Rating as it is one of the most important aspects of payload capacity, as well as something people frequently change.
Updated the Payload section to include instructions for how to find the Maximum Tire Load Rating.
Updated the first example (F-150 going up skiing) to include evaluating Maximum Tire Load Rating in the calculations.
Updated the Payload section to include a definition for Licensed GVW as it's what determines how much your vehicle can legally weigh. Not the GVWR as originally written.
Corrected the Payload FAQ to address Licensed GVW and correctly note that GVWR is not a legal number, other than when determining CDL requirements.
Updated the first example (F-150 going up skiing) to include evaluating the Licensed GVW, and what that means in the example.

Edit 2 - Courtesy of some fantastic feedback from @shermanator2, I have made the following changes:

Updated definition of Available Payload Capacity to reflect removing factory equipment.
Updated "Can I increase my payload capacity?" to account for removing factory equipment.
Updated Example 1, Payload to compare tire maximum load ratings with GAWR rather than GVWR.

ccw · Apr 15, 2021

Payload

We will start with payload as it only involves one unit – your vehicle – and towing builds on payload. Let us define the relevant terms and where you can find these numbers.

Note that these terms apply to all vehicles, including trailers!

Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) – Defined by the manufacturer. The total weight your vehicle can safely handle, except for Derating (defined below). Your GVW should not exceed this number.

Gross Vehicle Weight (GVW) – The current weight of your vehicle, including occupants, cargo, tongue weight, and fuel.

Licensed GVW - The weight your vehicle is licensed to weigh, including curb weight and all cargo. The total weight of your vehicle cannot legally exceed this value. How this number is determined varies based on state, but it's possible you can request either a higher or lower number at your discretion, and have your licensing fees adjusted accordingly. Inquire with your local DOL to understand the details. Refer to your vehicle registration to find this value.

Gross Axle Weight Rating (GAWR) – Defined by the manufacturer. The total weight the axle can safely handle. Your GAW should not exceed this number. This is widely regarded as more important than GVWR to not exceed in practice.

Gross Axle Weight (GAW) – The current weight on the axle.

Tire Maximum Load Rating – The maximum weight the tire can sustain at high speeds. This is widely regarded as at least as important as GAWR, if not more-so. Note that this value only applies when the tire is inflated to its maximum pressure as listed on the sidewall. If the tire has less pressure, it cannot safely carry its maximum rated load.

Curb Weight – This is frequently used in two different ways and is best differentiated in context:

Synonymous with GVW.
Weight of the vehicle, full of fluids, when it rolled off the factory.

For the purposes of this guide, I will use it as the factory weight (2) and let GVW represent the current weight. Curb weight is specific to every vehicle and can vary significantly, hundreds or thousands of pounds, based on options.

Payload – Weight of everything that was not in or on the truck when it rolled off the factory floor. Driver, passengers, stuff in the bed, additional weight from upgraded tires, canopy, hitch, tongue weight, etc. Note that dealer-installed options, even if they were specified on the original order, count towards this.

Payload Capacity – Simply GVWR minus Curb Weight. Assuming you haven't removed any factory equipment, this will give you the same payload number as the sticker in your door jamb (more details on that below).

Available Payload Capacity – GVWR minus GVW. This will give you the payload capacity you have remaining, accounting for your current Payload. Another way of getting this is Payload Capacity minus Payload.

Derating – A manufacturer can choose to specify an artificially lower GVWR, usually at the purchaser’s request. This is done for licensing and insurance reasons. For example, federal regulations require a Commercial Driver’s License (CDL) if the GVWR of the towing vehicle plus the GVWR of the trailer exceeds 26,000 pounds. To avoid this, trailers are frequently derated such that the GVWRs add up to exactly 26,000 pounds avoiding the need for a CDL.

Finding the numbers

So where do you find these numbers? Start with the driver’s door jamb! In there you will find two relevant stickers that define some of the numbers. Using those you can calculate some of the others.

The gray sticker notes your GVWR, and GAWR for your front and rear axles. The yellow sticker notes your Payload Capacity. If you want to know your Curb Weight, simply subtract Payload Capacity from GVWR.

If you are shopping and want to find the GVWR for your truck in advance, look at the chart on page 13 of the towing guide and be sure to reference the footnotes. There you will see the large range for GVWR based on the specific options on the truck.

If you want to know the payload capacity for a truck in advance, you will need to check out door stickers on a dealer lot for configurations similar to what you want or check out forum threads where folks have posted their door stickers. Note that this isn't perfect, but it will give you an idea of what payload you can expect for a given configuration.

(Note that trailers will have these same stickers, usually located on the side of them.)

To determine the Tire Maximum Load Rating the most accurate source will always be the sidewall of the tire. Here is an image breaking down all of the specifics, and you can see how the Maximum Load Limit is listed.

Going over a scale

The one number you will not see listed on those stickers is the GVW, because that is specific to the loading of a vehicle at a given moment. The only ways to get this are to:

Take the Curb Weight and manually add the weights of everything added to the vehicle. This can be good for getting a rough estimate.
Put your vehicle on a scale. This is much more accurate.

I recommend finding a CAT Scale, which is what the semis use. They are usually found at truck stops and are accurate to +-20 pounds. While driving into the truck stop is intimidating, just be sure to not get in the way of the semi drivers and you will be just fine.

Vehicle Modifications
When modifying any load bearing components of your vehicle, be aware of what they are rated for, and how they impact your vehicle's payload capacity. A common modification is to change tires; however, particularly in the case of heavy duty trucks, many off road oriented tires aren't rated as high as the factory tires. Make sure to adjust your vehicle use accordingly, or only purchase tires with at least the load capacity of OEM.

FAQ

Some frequent questions I have seen around regarding payload:

Is GVWR a legally enforced value? When it comes to government entities, only in the case of CDL requirements. Otherwise Licensed GVW is what matters. Be aware of the potential risk in the case of an accident while exceeding GVWR. It's possible that could be used as a contributing factor to either deny insurance or be charged with negligence, though I have not personally heard of a documented case. I am not a lawyer.
Can I increase my payload capacity? Yes, by reducing your curb weight. This can be done by removing factory equipment, such as seats, spare tire, truck bed, etc. It's worth noting that GVWR, the other factor that determined payload capacity, effectively can't be changed. To do so you would need to work with the manufacturer to update it. This is difficult and would only have a chance of working if your vehicle were originally derated.
Does adding air bags/replacing leaf springs/other modification increase my payload capacity? No. Payload capacity is based on GVWR. While these modifications can help your vehicle handle a given load better, it does not mean you can carry more. Other than in specific circumstances (e.g., F-250 vs F-350 where they are nearly the same truck), you do not know what the limiting factor is resulting in that number. Some things it could be: frame, suspension, brakes, tires, wheels, transmission, engine, axles, driveshaft, etc.
Does payload capacity account for a 150-pound driver? No. This is a common misconception, but the payload capacity listed in the door jamb only accounts for full fluids – no passengers. A common source of this misconception is that tow ratings certified by J2807 (discussed further in the towing section below) require the manufacturer to assume a 150-pound driver; however, J2807 does not certify GVWR and therefore the driver weight requirement does not apply to payload capacity.

ccw · Apr 15, 2021

Towing

Now that we know how payload works, let us talk about tow ratings. First, some more definitions.

J2807 – SAE standard that “establishes minimum performance criteria at GCWR and calculation methodology to determine tow-vehicle TWR [Trailer Weight Rating] for passenger cars, multipurpose passenger vehicles and trucks. This includes all vehicles up to 14000 lb GVWR.” This criteria includes a 150-pound driver, maintaining a minimum speed up Davis Dam Road at maximum trailer weight without overheating or other damage, and more.

Gross Combined Weight Rating (GCWR) – Defined by the manufacturer according to J2807. The maximum your tow vehicle and trailer(s) combined should weigh. Your GCW should not exceed this number.

Gross Combined Weight (GCW) – The current combined weight of your tow vehicle and trailer. In other words, the GVW of the tow vehicle plus the GVW of the trailer.

Towing Capacity – As defined by the manufacturer, the maximum trailer GVW a tow vehicle can safely tow, ignoring tongue weight and tow vehicle payload capacity. Can be calculated by subtracting the tow vehicle’s GVWR from the GCWR. It is generally a best practice to only purchase trailers with a GVWR equal to or less than your towing capacity so you can fully load the trailer, but the trailer GVW is what matters for safety.

Maximum Loaded Trailer Weight – Synonymous with Towing Capacity.

Trailer Weight Rating – Synonymous with Towing Capacity.

Tongue Weight – The weight being put onto the tow vehicle by the trailer. For conventional towing this is usually 10-15% of the trailer GVW. For fifth wheel and gooseneck towing this is usually 20-25% of the trailer GVW. For the tow vehicle, this counts as Payload.

Hitch/Receiver Rating – Hitches/receivers are rated for a given trailer and tongue weight (as are all the components associated with them). These ratings should be higher than your tow vehicle ratings for safety, to ensure they are not a weak point; however, they cannot raise the rating of the vehicle as a whole.

Where does one find their GCWR and/or towing capacity? In the case of Ford pickups, you will find the GCWR and Maximum Loaded Trailer Weight in the towing guide, specifically pages 18-27. There, you will find a table that looks like this (make sure to find the one specific to your model of truck).

So, with the definitions above, what is the maximum weight of trailer you can tow? It is not just the Towing Capacity. You must account for both Towing Capacity and the Payload Capacity of the tow vehicle, to ensure you can handle the tongue weight of the loaded trailer. Frequently tow vehicle Payload Capacity is the limiting factor for towing.

This is best exemplified with examples, as are walked through below.

ccw · Apr 15, 2021

Example 1, Payload: Going skiing in an F-150

This example is directly from my personal life. All numbers are accurate to my real-life situation with my current truck, and the door jamb stickers pictured above are from my truck.

For context, my truck is a 2009 F-150 XLT, super cab, 6.5-foot bed, 5.4L V8.

I run a casual skiing group with friends, coworkers, and friends of friends. As part of that, I drive people up to the ski hill nearly every weekend in winter. After investigation, I have learned that when I take a full load of people up skiing, my truck is maxed out. Just to go up skiing! Let us see how that breaks down.

First, we look at the yellow door sticker to see how much payload capacity we have from the factory. In the case of my truck that is 1479 pounds. Let’s round that to 1500 pounds of payload capacity for convenience.

As I note below in the modifications, I have replaced my truck's tires. Let's verify the maximum tire load rating to ensure they will cover the factory GVWR, and therefore payload capacity. If they cannot, I will need to use the lower maximum provided by the tires.

My new tires are GoodYear Wranger Duratracs LT275/70R18. Their maximum load rating is 3640 pounds. Multiply by 2 and they can hold a combined 7280 pounds per axle. According to the gray sticker in the door jamb, the front GAWR is 3750 pounds and rear GAWR is 3850 pounds. Taking the larger GAWR of 3850 pounds, two of the tires need to be able to support at least that weight and in this case they clearly can.

Note that if you have a dually, you will need to account for 4 tires on the rear axle.

Make sure to reference either the physical sidewall of your tire or the online specifications for your tire's specific size. Tires can have dramatically different ratings depending on their size, even if they are the same make and model. Additionally, remember that the tire's maximum load rating only applies at the maximum pressure listed on the sidewall.

Next, let’s consider any modifications I’ve made to the truck as well as my regular carry and how much that weighs:

Tonneau cover: 100 pounds
All-terrain tires: 80 pounds heavier than factory (20 pounds per tire; spare was not changed)
Regular gear carried: 100 pounds (includes ratchet straps, tow strap, tools, compressor, tire chains, etc). This is an estimate but feels about right.

Total additional weight is 280 pounds. Let us round up to 300 pounds for convenience and safety factor. This leaves approximately 1200 pounds of payload capacity remaining.

When going skiing, we need to account for people and gear:

5 adult men (it isn’t always all guys, but this is worst case): 1000 pounds (assumes 200 pounds per person, includes the clothes they’re wearing)
Ski/snowboard gear for 5 people: 200 pounds (includes helmets, boots, skis/snowboards, poles, backpacks, etc)

Total additional weight is 1200 pounds, now leaving us with 0 pounds of payload capacity remaining. I have been maxed out several times just going skiing! Not hauling a specifically heavy load or towing a particularly large trailer for the truck.

Now, I cannot provide any proof for the weight of people and ski gear, but I can provide proof for my modifications and regular carry. When I did this rough math and realized I was maxed out, I took my truck to a scale with a full tank of gas and had it weighed without me in it. Here is the scale ticket:

According to the gray sticker in the door jamb, my truck has a GVWR of 7200 pounds. Subtract the scale weight of the truck, 6080 pounds, and I have only 1120 pounds of remaining payload capacity! So, I actually under-estimated the weight of modifications and regular gear a bit and means even if I over-estimated the weight of ski gear, I’m still maxed out or even potentially overloaded.

Payload capacity is easily the most overlooked number when it comes to trucks. The vast majority of half ton trucks with a slide-in camper are overloaded, and I have yet to see a slide-in camper be usable with common half-ton truck configurations. Mid-size trucks are even worse.

It's worth noting that my truck is licensed for 8000 pounds. This means I legally have an additional 800 pounds of payload capacity compared to the manufacturer rating; however, the licensed weight does not consider the ability for a vehicle to safely carry that weight.

ccw · Apr 25, 2021

Example 2, Towing: 3/4-ton diesel

Now let us talk about a common scenario, but a hypothetical. I will be making up these numbers but keeping them realistic. The goal is to see if this is a safe load for the truck.

The truck: 2021 F-250 Lariat Tremor (crew cab, short box) with the 6.7L diesel.

The passengers: husband (200 pounds) and wife (150 pounds) with 2 children around 10 years old (120 pounds combined), plus a 60-pound dog.

Cargo in the truck: complement of bikes weighing in at 100 pounds (30-pound bike for each adult, 20-pound bike for each child), weight distributing hitch (100 pounds), other gear (100 pounds; e.g. car seats, food, additional clothes for the trip, basic tools, etc).

The trailer: travel trailer with a 10,000-pound GVWR. We will assume it’s loaded to 9500 pounds with propane, batteries, fresh water, and gear.

First, let us make sure the truck is rated for that much trailer weight. In other words, make sure our trailer is under our Maximum Loaded Trailer Weight. For this we will head to the towing guide, page 23: F-250 SRW Super Duty Pickup, Conventional Towing. Then look up our maximum trailer weight in the table, making sure to note that the “2” footnote for the Tremor package.

Our Maximum Loaded Trailer Weight is 15,000 pounds – well above our trailer’s GVWR and what it weighs. But we are not done! Next, we need to consider payload capacity.

If you have your truck the easiest option to get your payload capacity is looking at your yellow door jamb sticker; however, for the purposes of this example (or if you are researching your truck purchase!) I will assume 2700 pounds based on another post in the forum.

Let us add up the payload that will be in/on the truck:

Passengers: 530 pounds
Cargo: 300 pounds
Tongue weight: 1425 pounds (recommended tongue weight is 10-15% of trailer weight, so let’s assume 15% to account for accidental tongue-heavy loading, which is preferred over tongue-light)

Total payload comes to 2255 pounds. Obviously adjust as needed for your specific situation, but in this hypothetical the truck is a good match for the load.

Now, let us extend this to a fifth wheel trailer of the same weight (Light! Fifth-wheel trailers often weigh more than this.) and see how things change. Fifth wheel/gooseneck recommended tongue weight is 20-25% of trailer weight and once again we will assume the heavier end. Additionally, let us assume the bikes are in the trailer as the bed is consumed by the hitch. Here’s our new weights:

Passengers: 530 pounds
Cargo 200 pounds
Tongue Weight: 2375 pounds

Our new Maximum Trailer Weight Rating, from page 24 of the towing guide, again taking note of the "3" footnote for the Tremor package, is 18,100 pounds. Once again, tons of headroom there.

However, our total payload is dramatically different: 3105 pounds. We are now overloaded by 400 pounds! This truck is not a good match for this load. In fact, with most 3/4-ton pickups you will need to be careful with payload capacity if trying to tow a fifth wheel or gooseneck because of the tongue weight.

ccw · Apr 25, 2021

Addendum: airbags, weight distribution, and sway control

The main focus of this series of posts was to focus on the numbers; however, these three terms are so critical to towing and there's confusion as to what each of them is for that I want to address them here, too.

Airbags
Airbags can reduce or eliminate sag caused by heavy weight placed over the rear axle of a truck, as well as potentially result in a softer ride. They will keep headlights from pointing skyward, and improve driver visibility.

They do not reduce the weight on the rear axle, increase the weight on the front axle, nor do they increase the payload capacity of the truck beyond factory as noted in the "Payload" section above.

Weight Distribution
A weight distribution hitch uses leverage to move weight from the hitch outwards. The result is moving weight off of the rear axle of the truck and onto the front axle of the truck and trailer axles. Particularly with lighter trucks (e.g. half tons and mid-size), but even with heavy duty trucks, this can dramatically improve trailer stability and vehicle handling. Because more weight is on the front axle of the truck, steering control is improved compared to towing without.

If the weight distribution hitch is setup correctly, the truck and trailer should be level and thus sag is eliminated.

Sway Control
This comes in two varieties:

Passive. This includes most weight distribution hitches, which almost always include some form of sway control. This is often done through friction points that resist the truck and trailer alignment changing.
Active. All modern trucks have this. The vehicle's sensors/computers will detect trailer sway and strategically apply both the truck and trailer's brakes to attempt to reduce it. Engine power may also be reduced in an effort to control it. This can be thought of as an extension to the stability control system.

The best way to prevent sway is correct trailer loading: ensure you have enough tongue weight for your trailer weight. Here's an example showing the impact of too little tongue weight, courtesy of U-Haul.

Air Bags vs Weight Distribution Example
For a great example of how air bags and weight distribution affect the weight and sag of a truck, check out this video where scales are used to measure the actual weight on the axles of the truck.

Tremordreaming · Apr 26, 2021

Very detailed and useful information here. Thank you! This should be pinned!

ccw · Apr 29, 2021

Tremordreaming said:
Very detailed and useful information here. Thank you! This should be pinned!

Thank you! Mods, if you see this I would love for this to be pinned so it hopefully helps more folks out.

davidb1841 · Apr 29, 2021

I have researched this topic extensively..CCW's information is spot on accurate!!

My F150 had a cargo capacity of 1100 lbs....my Ford Edge has a cargo capacity of 950!!!!!!!

This made my F150 with 4 250 lbs men and a large dog MAXED OUT! No capacity even to bring a cooler of beer....let alone tow ANY trailer......

This is why I now own a Tremor........(F250) Cargo capacity 2730....and with this I would still only try and tow a light half ton towable 5th wheel (GVWR 10K or less).......Be careful, these trucks can LEGALLY tow a lot less than you think!

modified · May 6, 2021

Wow, it's really nice to have all this information in one thread! I really appreciate all the effort you put into this. It's been stuck!

ccw · May 6, 2021

modified said:
Wow, it's really nice to have all this information in one thread! I really appreciate all the effort you put into this. It's been stuck!

Thanks for the sticky! And absolutely! I've been wanting to write up a full-fledged guide like this for a while, just needed to find the right spot for it to have impact. And this forum was it!

ccw · May 7, 2021

hedge said:
Very concise and well laid out, but I do have a bit of feeback:

-Not sure where people get the idea that GVWR is a legal number, it's a licensing number. Often you can even pay to license the vehicle higher than the GVWR. I've been on RV groups for 20 years and this has been debated ad nauseum and I haven't seen any legal document where DOT uses GVWR. The closest I've seen is in BC where it is in there literature but unless you are grossly overloaded it doesn't seem to be enforced.

It's also clear that GVWR is kind of a 'guidance' number when you look at examples such as a 450 having the same GVWR as a 350 when clearly it's a heavier duty truck. It's given the same GVWR as a 350 so it stays as a class 3 truck.

-I see no mention of IMO the most important capacity on your truck.. the tires. It's right on the sidewall. I may go over the GVWR a bit but will not exceed tire capacity.

-Related to above, people get so fixated on the Cargo Capacity that they forget about tire capacity. I've seen it more on truck camper forums where they go to a stripped truck with a gas engine to get a really high 4000+ payload and then think they can carry a camper that large. I've scaled my truck with and without the camper and it only adds 150lbs to the front axle... therefore they can exceed the tire capacity before they ever get to the mythical cargo capacity.

-I'm still not entirely sure about the 150-lb driver. It's mentioned many times in the rv and towing guide. It's almost like they include it in the towing specs and truck camper specs (x4) but not cargo capacity... that's confusing of them.

If you find this feedback at all useful it would be great if you could possibly integrate it as I think you do a much better job of explaining these things.

100% agreed on the tire weight rating and its importance. Totally missed it in the write-up! Will add it, as well as noting that capacity is only at maximum when aired up to maximum PSI as listed on the tire’s sidewall.

That’s a great call-out about GVWR. I did some more research now and I agree. GVWR isn’t a legal thing from the perspective of DOT or police, but is intended as an indication of safety limits by the manufacturer (barring derates). I would be wary of exceeding it from an insurance and liability standpoint - arguably there’s a negligence argument if you exceed GVWR and get into an accident - but solely being over GVWR won’t get you a ticket.

I think some of the confusion comes from exactly what you point out: licensed GVW vs GVWR. I hadn’t thought through the licensed GVW side of it enough. Just spoke with the Washington DOL and if your vehicle‘s scale weight is over 6000 pounds they determine the licensed GVW by multiplying the scale weight by 1.5, then rounding up to the next 2000 pound increment. GVWR not involved. Similarly there’s nothing stopping a person from licensing for a higher weight than that assuming you‘re OK with paying more.

Manufacturer GVWR is still used by DOT when determining whether a CDL is required or not, though.

I’ll update the posts to emphasize that GVWR is a safety number that may contribute to liability and insurance, then add a definition for licensed GVW and how it’s involved. Also will emphasize checking GAWR and tires in my payload example.

In the case of the F-450 agreed that it’s underrated. I would consider that a derate like I’ve addressed, just so happens it’s not optional for that specific model.

For the 150 pound driver, agreed on it being confusing. You’ll note that they only ever call it out in the context of tow rating, though. Not cargo capacity. Other than the camper section as you mention, which is it’s own beast, and a page I consider solely useful for determining maximum possible GVWR for a given truck model.

I’ll update the posts with the changes later as it will take me a bit to reword everything and integrate it properly. But they will get updated and I’ll post again when I’ve done so.

Thank you for the feedback!

ccw · Jun 1, 2021

hedge said:
Very concise and well laid out, but I do have a bit of feeback:

-Not sure where people get the idea that GVWR is a legal number, it's a licensing number. Often you can even pay to license the vehicle higher than the GVWR. I've been on RV groups for 20 years and this has been debated ad nauseum and I haven't seen any legal document where DOT uses GVWR. The closest I've seen is in BC where it is in there literature but unless you are grossly overloaded it doesn't seem to be enforced.

It's also clear that GVWR is kind of a 'guidance' number when you look at examples such as a 450 having the same GVWR as a 350 when clearly it's a heavier duty truck. It's given the same GVWR as a 350 so it stays as a class 3 truck.

-I see no mention of IMO the most important capacity on your truck.. the tires. It's right on the sidewall. I may go over the GVWR a bit but will not exceed tire capacity.

-Related to above, people get so fixated on the Cargo Capacity that they forget about tire capacity. I've seen it more on truck camper forums where they go to a stripped truck with a gas engine to get a really high 4000+ payload and then think they can carry a camper that large. I've scaled my truck with and without the camper and it only adds 150lbs to the front axle... therefore they can exceed the tire capacity before they ever get to the mythical cargo capacity.

-I'm still not entirely sure about the 150-lb driver. It's mentioned many times in the rv and towing guide. It's almost like they include it in the towing specs and truck camper specs (x4) but not cargo capacity... that's confusing of them.

If you find this feedback at all useful it would be great if you could possibly integrate it as I think you do a much better job of explaining these things.

Sorry about the delay with addressing this feedback, but I didn't forget! Just updated everything and noted all of the edits in the first post, as it's the face of the guide.

cookiemonster · Jul 29, 2021

Very helpful stuff here!

Apologies if you highlighted this and I completely missed it - do we have any theories for why the conventional tow limit of the 6.7 F350 is so low for the Tremor compared to non-Tremor? The gooseneck and fifth wheel don't have much of a penalty, but the conventional towing has a penalty of 2.5 tons!

ccw · Jul 29, 2021

bananawine said:
Very helpful stuff here!

Apologies if you highlighted this and I completely missed it - do we have any theories for why the conventional tow limit of the 6.7 F350 is so low for the Tremor compared to non-Tremor? The gooseneck and fifth wheel don't have much of a penalty, but the conventional towing has a penalty of 2.5 tons!

The theory I have is that the softer shocks combined with the lack of a rear sway bar and smaller front sway bar result in less stability. Means the trailer has a higher likelihood of pushing the truck around, particularly since the trucks are rated the same for weight distributed and non-weight distributed.

This is emphasized with conventional towing because the tongue weight is so far back.

shermanator2 · Aug 25, 2022

Great post. I have a couple of minor technical comments.

It is possible to increase payload capacity by reducing curb weight. You can remove the tailgate if you don’t need it. You can leave the spare tire and jack at home if you con’t mind the risk. Bumpers (at least in the past) are not required on pickup trucks. Back seat could be removed if you don’t need it. Maybe you don’t need the pickup box at all. Other accessories could be removed.

It looks to me like towing capacity = GCWR-curb weight-150, not GCWR-GVWR as you stated. For example, from the Ford guide for F-350 standard cab dually 4x4 diesel with 4.10 gears, GCWR is 43400 and goose neck towing capacity is listed as 35400. I am guessing that that is calculated by 35400 = 43400 - 8850 - 150. 8850 seems about right for curb weight. The normal GVWR for that truck is 14000. GCWR-GVWR would only be 29400.

When looking at the tire weight rating, you really should compare it to each GAWR/2, not the GVWR/4 as you have done. If you had tires on your F-150 that were rated at 1800lbs (meeting your criteria) and you loaded the truck up to the GVWR, unless you perfectly balanced the load you would be overloading the tires on one axle or the other. You really need tires with a load rating of 3850/2 or 1925 lbs. For a dually rear axle this is of course GAWR/4.

ccw · Aug 25, 2022

Thank you for the feedback!! Those are all great points.

shermanator2 said:
It is possible to increase payload capacity by reducing curb weight. You can remove the tailgate if you don’t need it. You can leave the spare tire and jack at home if you con’t mind the risk. Bumpers (at least in the past) are not required on pickup trucks. Back seat could be removed if you don’t need it. Maybe you don’t need the pickup box at all. Other accessories could be removed.

This is so true. I didn't think to include it because it's not something I've considered doing, and not something most people do, but it's absolutely correct. I've updated my definition of Available Payload Capacity and the FAQ Can I increase my payload capacity? to account for this.

shermanator2 said:
It looks to me like towing capacity = GCWR-curb weight-150, not GCWR-GVWR as you stated. For example, from the Ford guide for F-350 standard cab dually 4x4 diesel with 4.10 gears, GCWR is 43400 and goose neck towing capacity is listed as 35400. I am guessing that that is calculated by 35400 = 43400 - 8850 - 150. 8850 seems about right for curb weight. The normal GVWR for that truck is 14000. GCWR-GVWR would only be 29400.

This is intriguing. I agree that the numbers line up better in your example if you use your calculation, but curb weight is so variable that I wonder if that's what the manufacturer actually uses. Unless they take the most optimistic curb weight?

It's true that the towing capacity does account for a 150 pound driver, though.

I'm going to do some more thinking and research into this and will revisit.

shermanator2 said:
When looking at the tire weight rating, you really should compare it to each GAWR/2, not the GVWR/4 as you have done. If you had tires on your F-150 that were rated at 1800lbs (meeting your criteria) and you loaded the truck up to the GVWR, unless you perfectly balanced the load you would be overloading the tires on one axle or the other. You really need tires with a load rating of 3850/2 or 1925 lbs. For a dually rear axle this is of course GAWR/4.

Fantastic point! I have no idea how I missed this. Not only does it better account for poorly balanced loads, but different axles can have different GAWRs. You want to make sure your tires can support the largest GAWR.

Updated my example to account for this!

Ceerix · Aug 25, 2022

shermanator2 said:
.... You can leave the spare tire and jack at home if you con’t mind the risk. ..... Other accessories could be removed.

You can leave your wife at home if you don’t mind the risk

WreckMTech · Apr 23, 2023

ccw said:
Example 2, Towing: 3/4-ton diesel

Now let us talk about a common scenario, but a hypothetical. I will be making up these numbers but keeping them realistic. The goal is to see if this is a safe load for the truck.

The truck: 2021 F-250 Lariat Tremor (crew cab, short box) with the 6.7L diesel.

The passengers: husband (200 pounds) and wife (150 pounds) with 2 children around 10 years old (120 pounds combined), plus a 60-pound dog.

Cargo in the truck: complement of bikes weighing in at 100 pounds (30-pound bike for each adult, 20-pound bike for each child), weight distributing hitch (100 pounds), other gear (100 pounds; e.g. car seats, food, additional clothes for the trip, basic tools, etc).

The trailer: travel trailer with a 10,000-pound GVWR. We will assume it’s loaded to 9500 pounds with propane, batteries, fresh water, and gear.

First, let us make sure the truck is rated for that much trailer weight. In other words, make sure our trailer is under our Maximum Loaded Trailer Weight. For this we will head to the towing guide, page 23: F-250 SRW Super Duty Pickup, Conventional Towing. Then look up our maximum trailer weight in the table, making sure to note that the “2” footnote for the Tremor package.

View attachment 23022

Our Maximum Loaded Trailer Weight is 15,000 pounds – well above our trailer’s GVWR and what it weighs. But we are not done! Next, we need to consider payload capacity.

If you have your truck the easiest option to get your payload capacity is looking at your yellow door jamb sticker; however, for the purposes of this example (or if you are researching your truck purchase!) I will assume 2700 pounds based on another post in the forum.

Let us add up the payload that will be in/on the truck:

Passengers: 530 pounds

Cargo: 300 pounds

Tongue weight: 1425 pounds (recommended tongue weight is 10-15% of trailer weight, so let’s assume 15% to account for accidental tongue-heavy loading, which is preferred over tongue-light)

Total payload comes to 2255 pounds. Obviously adjust as needed for your specific situation, but in this hypothetical the truck is a good match for the load.

Now, let us extend this to a fifth wheel trailer of the same weight (Light! Fifth-wheel trailers often weigh more than this.) and see how things change. Fifth wheel/gooseneck recommended tongue weight is 20-25% of trailer weight and once again we will assume the heavier end. Additionally, let us assume the bikes are in the trailer as the bed is consumed by the hitch. Here’s our new weights:

Passengers: 530 pounds

Cargo 200 pounds

Tongue Weight: 2375 pounds

Our new Maximum Trailer Weight Rating, from page 24 of the towing guide, again taking note of the "3" footnote for the Tremor package, is 18,100 pounds. Once again, tons of headroom there.

View attachment 23023

However, our total payload is dramatically different: 3105 pounds. We are now overloaded by 400 pounds! This truck is not a good match for this load. In fact, with most 3/4-ton pickups you will need to be careful with payload capacity if trying to tow a fifth wheel or gooseneck because of the tongue weight.

So let me get this straight...so for a 2022 250 Diesel 3.55 Tremor package is ~2700 pounds payload capacity. Add a husband, wife, kids, and a dog, 200# of cargo (total 700#), and the MAX FIFTH wheel you'll be able to haul would be 8,000 - 10,000 max GVWR? thats not a very big fifth wheel.

ccw · Apr 23, 2023

WreckMTech said:
So let me get this straight...so for a 2022 250 Diesel 3.55 Tremor package is ~2700 pounds payload capacity. Add a husband, wife, kids, and a dog, 200# of cargo (total 700#), and the MAX FIFTH wheel you'll be able to haul would be 8,000 - 10,000 max GVWR? thats not a very big fifth wheel.

8,000-10,000 pound max trailer weight, not GVWR. Though GVWR is the safest number to use as it means you can max out the trailer without overloading the truck.

But yep, that's the max using manufacturer numbers. To actually utilize the goose neck/fifth wheel towing capacity, especially in a 250, you need to be running an essentially empty truck with only a driver and pin weight. Great for tradespeople, not so much for families with an RV.

(Lots of tradespeople run 250's to maximize trailer weight without needing a CDL.)

I will add there's variability in the percentage of trailer weight as pin weight, but it's often not as simple as looking up the pin weight on the spec sheet. That's often taken by the manufacturer with a totally empty trailer - no batteries, fresh water, supplies, etc. The proportion may stay the same as the trailer is loaded up, but may not.

It's worth noting for Tremors (and only Tremors) that the 250 and 350 are mechanically identical. As such, from a mechanical standpoint you can use the payload of the 350 and jump up considerably in trailer weight.

The risk is liability. Regardless of the mechanics of the truck, the door sticker says what the truck is capable of legally. If you get into an accident and are overweight according to the sticker, that might be able to be used against you (not a lawyer). I can't point to a case where this happened, but insurance companies will do whatever they can to get out of paying for something.

I'm not personally comfortable with that liability, so I went for an F-350 to have more payload on the sticker. But each person needs to weigh that risk themselves.

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