Kino Lorber Studio Classics - Page 4738 - Blu-ray Forum

BarnDoor · 05-04-2024, 03:05 PM

So that leaves 2 40s former Olive titles to be announced, and one is a 4K release. Probably reasonable to suggest it's going to be Sands of Iwo Jima, given at least one of these is a John Wayne title (perhaps both).

DukeTogo84 · 05-04-2024, 03:12 PM

Very curious about tomorrow's line up of reveals. Three new to BD (in the US at least). Curious what era's they will be from.

Rafows · 05-04-2024, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BarnDoor

So that leaves 2 40s former Olive titles to be announced, and one is a 4K release. Probably reasonable to suggest it's going to be Sands of Iwo Jima, given at least one of these is a John Wayne title (perhaps both).

I believe you are right about Sands of Ivo Jima (mentioned in the back cover of "Finger Man". My hunch about the other title is Rop of Sand as Kino loves Lancaster and it was already mentioned in the description of "Dark City".

Areyakiddin · 05-04-2024, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dailyan

You can thank me for buying yesterday... another Robert Rossen movie that's not Body and Soul.

Elvis_Tangerium · 05-04-2024, 03:46 PM

Robert Harris's explanation about what happened at Fox is worth quoting in full. I'll put it behind a spoiler tag:

[Show spoiler]Around 1976, with an apparent fear of nitrate stock, certain execs at Fox decided that it would be appropriate to "convert" to safety any and all nitrate holdings. There are two ways to perform this.

The first, and least expensive, would be to create new safety fine grains from each of the original black & white nitrate Technicolor records, and then re-composite said records to a new color dupe negative. This would be performed after a test print had been produced, checking for dupes, alignment of records and other potential problems. The precise same methodology would deal with black & white productions, less the alignment tests. These actions would have preserved the library AT ITS ORIGINAL QUALITY.

Once all elements would be produced, tested and answer printed, the original nitrate elements would go into archival storage, lest they be needed again. The LoC, UCLA, GEH, or MOMA would all have been perfect places to shepherd the elements.

The other way to "preserve" an entire library would be the route taken by Fox, one of the most notoriously idiotic things ever done in the history of film, and IMHO worse than the great silent purge at Universal, c. 1948.

What these knights of film preservation did, was to take original Technicolor negatives, and without testing, combine the records to a single safety color dupe negative stock called CRI, thus saving one generation of loss, and not going through an intermediate stage. CRI stock was not meant for archival printing, and generally has a shelf life of less than ten years, properly stored, before it quickly begins to fade.

The fact that proper alignment was not done was error one. The fact that CRI stock was used was error two. Had proper testing been performed, there would have been nothing wrong using CRI as an immediate printing element, but not for archival use. While the resultant prints could potentially, if created from fully exposed negatives, be very pretty, there were registration errors printed in, and color timing generally did not replicate the original intent of the filmmakers.

Once the CRIs were produced, the lab then made error three. New separation masters, from partially registered, improperly graded, and in many cases, overly dupey and contrasty CRIs were struck. These new "archival" elements, replicated in quick and dirty separated records, what had been improperly exposed to the CRI.

Once all of these miracles were performed, every original nitrate Technicolor three-strip negative was junked. Every (I believe one survived) set of three-strip nitrate fine grains were junked. Every black & white nitrate negative was junked. Every black & white fine grain master was junked of Fox's holdings. A small number may have survived at archives. Fortunately, the Fox nitrate studio prints went to UCLA.

Rumor has it, that the nitrate elements were taken out into the Pacific on barges, and dumped, but that may just be rumor.

Today, because of the unprofessionalism of those who came before them, do the best that they can with what survives. None of the Techniciolor films have been restored, no matter what you may read. Films such as The Black Swan, which won the Academy Award for Best Color Cinematography, and Leave Her to Heaven, with its beautiful Technicolorish tones are digital clean-ups based upon the extant elements, with a good attempt at making them look nice. But far from original. While digital technology is helpful, it cannot repair the damage done to these films. Every time I think of this unfortunate situation, Henry Hull's words, as spoken in both Jesse James and The Return of Frank James come to mind. Fortunately, every other studio had the foresight and technical knowledge to take care of and properly store their libraries. Let's look to the bright side. RAH

CRASHLANDING · 05-04-2024, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dailyan

Great news! I was just looking into the DVD for this after I heard the film discussed during the John Garfield episode on the excellent podcast "You Must Remember This."

edit: actually it was the old Olive blu-ray; I was looking at DVD options for some other films.

Driver78 · 05-04-2024, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DukeTogo84

Very curious about tomorrow's line up of reveals. Three new to BD (in the US at least). Curious what era's they will be from.

If we were taking bets, I'd wager pre-1960

surfinhank · 05-04-2024, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elvis_Tangerium

Robert Harris's explanation about what happened at Fox is worth quoting in full. I'll put it behind a spoiler tag:

[Show spoiler]Around 1976, with an apparent fear of nitrate stock, certain execs at Fox decided that it would be appropriate to "convert" to safety any and all nitrate holdings. There are two ways to perform this.

The first, and least expensive, would be to create new safety fine grains from each of the original black & white nitrate Technicolor records, and then re-composite said records to a new color dupe negative. This would be performed after a test print had been produced, checking for dupes, alignment of records and other potential problems. The precise same methodology would deal with black & white productions, less the alignment tests. These actions would have preserved the library AT ITS ORIGINAL QUALITY.

Once all elements would be produced, tested and answer printed, the original nitrate elements would go into archival storage, lest they be needed again. The LoC, UCLA, GEH, or MOMA would all have been perfect places to shepherd the elements.

The other way to "preserve" an entire library would be the route taken by Fox, one of the most notoriously idiotic things ever done in the history of film, and IMHO worse than the great silent purge at Universal, c. 1948.

What these knights of film preservation did, was to take original Technicolor negatives, and without testing, combine the records to a single safety color dupe negative stock called CRI, thus saving one generation of loss, and not going through an intermediate stage. CRI stock was not meant for archival printing, and generally has a shelf life of less than ten years, properly stored, before it quickly begins to fade.

The fact that proper alignment was not done was error one. The fact that CRI stock was used was error two. Had proper testing been performed, there would have been nothing wrong using CRI as an immediate printing element, but not for archival use. While the resultant prints could potentially, if created from fully exposed negatives, be very pretty, there were registration errors printed in, and color timing generally did not replicate the original intent of the filmmakers.

Once the CRIs were produced, the lab then made error three. New separation masters, from partially registered, improperly graded, and in many cases, overly dupey and contrasty CRIs were struck. These new "archival" elements, replicated in quick and dirty separated records, what had been improperly exposed to the CRI.

Once all of these miracles were performed, every original nitrate Technicolor three-strip negative was junked. Every (I believe one survived) set of three-strip nitrate fine grains were junked. Every black & white nitrate negative was junked. Every black & white fine grain master was junked of Fox's holdings. A small number may have survived at archives. Fortunately, the Fox nitrate studio prints went to UCLA.

Rumor has it, that the nitrate elements were taken out into the Pacific on barges, and dumped, but that may just be rumor.

Today, because of the unprofessionalism of those who came before them, do the best that they can with what survives. None of the Techniciolor films have been restored, no matter what you may read. Films such as The Black Swan, which won the Academy Award for Best Color Cinematography, and Leave Her to Heaven, with its beautiful Technicolorish tones are digital clean-ups based upon the extant elements, with a good attempt at making them look nice. But far from original. While digital technology is helpful, it cannot repair the damage done to these films. Every time I think of this unfortunate situation, Henry Hull's words, as spoken in both Jesse James and The Return of Frank James come to mind. Fortunately, every other studio had the foresight and technical knowledge to take care of and properly store their libraries. Let's look to the bright side. RAH

DukeTogo84 · 05-04-2024, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Driver78

If we were taking bets, I'd wager pre-1960

Haha. Maybe. I'm hoping we get some post 1970 films as it seems like it's been a bit quiet on those from Kino in the last few weeks.

ponytail · 05-04-2024, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dailyan

Shame this isn�t getting a 4k release, it�s a top 5 noir imo.

DWeickerSr · 05-04-2024, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonB45

I wish it was Paramount Preston Sturges but there aren't 3 new to blu from the 1930's and 1940's.

Well, technically there are at least three.

The two heavy hitters - Miracle Of Morgan�s Creek and Hail The Conquering Hero.

Then there is The Sin Of Harold Diddlebock (aka Mad Wednesday)

And a few where he was the writer - I�m All Yours, College Swing

Now whether Kino has the rights to any of these is another question.

SanCarolina59 · 05-04-2024, 05:22 PM

If I had to guess at which three may be chosen tomorrow, I think there's a good chance it'll be perhaps three Charlton Heston films from Paramount. There's currently 8 of Paramount owned films left that haven't had a prior U.S. Blu-ray release, and I wouldn't be surprised if KL picked some of them up:

Here's the possibilities below, if this is indeed the case:

The Savage (1952) (no prior U.S. DVD release)
Arrowhead (1953)
Pony Express (1953)
The Naked Jungle (1954)
Lucy Gallant (1955) (no prior U.S. DVD release, also worth noting that what appears to have been a new remaster of this film was recently on TCM)
The Far Horizons (1955)
Three Violent People (1956)
The Pigeon That Took Rome (1962) (no prior U.S. DVD release)

Other than Charlton Heston, there's also Bob Hope, who has four remaining Paramount owned films left unreleased:

Here Come The Girls (1953) (no prior U.S. DVD release)
Casanova's Big Night (1954)
That Certain Feeling (1956) (no prior U.S. DVD release)
Beau James (1957) (no prior U.S. DVD release. This was previously ruled out in the prior Paramount deal by the KLI as being risky saleswise, but I could see things maybe changing if Paramount's done a new master on it/offered a good price for it)

BarnDoor · 05-04-2024, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SanCarolina59

If I had to guess at which three may be chosen tomorrow, I think there's a good chance it'll be perhaps three Charlton Heston films from Paramount. There's currently 8 of Paramount owned films left that haven't had a prior U.S. Blu-ray release, and I wouldn't be surprised if KL picked some of them up:

Here's the possibilities below, if this is indeed the case:

The Savage (1952) (no prior U.S. DVD release)
Arrowhead (1953)
Pony Express (1953)
The Naked Jungle (1954)
Lucy Gallant (1955) (no prior U.S. DVD release, also worth noting that what appears to have been a new remaster of this film was recently on TCM)
The Far Horizons (1955)
Three Violent People (1956)
The Pigeon That Took Rome (1962) (no prior U.S. DVD release)

When I posted this list of westerns:

Copper Canyon
Arrowhead
Pony Express
The Far Horizons
The Lonely Man
Three Violent People
Chuka
Waterhole No. 3
Blue
Bad Company
Posse

The KLI said that 2 were part of this deal (another 2 were cut at the last minute, while one is with another label, most likely Bad Company). So it's possible.

Driver78 · 05-04-2024, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DukeTogo84

Haha. Maybe. I'm hoping we get some post 1970 films as it seems like it's been a bit quiet on those from Kino in the last few weeks.

Last weekend we got a double dose of film noir and today we get another golden age film. Not knocking older films, just asking for a better balance. Maybe tomorrow the trend will change

Kino Lorber Insider · 05-04-2024, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Driver78

Last weekend we got a double dose of film noir and today we get another golden age film. Not knocking older films, just asking for a better balance. Maybe tomorrow the trend will change

And when we announce a few 1980s/90s titles in a row, we hear from the other side.

You know how many films we have in the deals and which decades, there will be a little of everything for everyone.

Areyakiddin · 05-04-2024, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Driver78

Last weekend we got a double dose of film noir and today we get another golden age film. Not knocking older films, just asking for a better balance. Maybe tomorrow the trend will change

I assume you also called out Kino for a bad balance of movies when they announced Snake Eyes, Repossessed, and Narrow Margin all in a row a couple of weeks ago?

T.H.E. Cat · 05-04-2024, 07:22 PM

Good day, humans! Chico Marx Cat here. Please take a look at what arrived here at The Kitty Cat Condo� just moments ago. Our Kino Lorber "March Madness Sale" order was delivered on this rather cloudy Caturday (or as you humans call it - 'Saturday') courtesy of the USPS. For tonight's entertainment, I picked out the KL 4K UHD edition of the Western classic, High Noon (1952), starring Gary Cooper and Grace Kelly. My brother, Harpo Marx Cat, has chosen a caper classic directed by Stanley Kubrick, The Killing (1956). So our 4K double-feature consists of two movies from the 1950s filmed in glorious black and white. Have a great weekend humans and stay safe! >^..^< >^..^<

DukeTogo84 · 05-04-2024, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SanCarolina59

If I had to guess at which three may be chosen tomorrow, I think there's a good chance it'll be perhaps three Charlton Heston films from Paramount. There's currently 8 of Paramount owned films left that haven't had a prior U.S. Blu-ray release, and I wouldn't be surprised if KL picked some of them up:

Here's the possibilities below, if this is indeed the case:

The Savage (1952) (no prior U.S. DVD release)
Arrowhead (1953)
Pony Express (1953)
The Naked Jungle (1954)
Lucy Gallant (1955) (no prior U.S. DVD release, also worth noting that what appears to have been a new remaster of this film was recently on TCM)
The Far Horizons (1955)
Three Violent People (1956)
The Pigeon That Took Rome (1962) (no prior U.S. DVD release)

Other than Charlton Heston, there's also Bob Hope, who has four remaining Paramount owned films left unreleased:

Here Come The Girls (1953) (no prior U.S. DVD release)
Casanova's Big Night (1954)
That Certain Feeling (1956) (no prior U.S. DVD release)
Beau James (1957) (no prior U.S. DVD release. This was previously ruled out in the prior Paramount deal by the KLI as being risky saleswise, but I could see things maybe changing if Paramount's done a new master on it/offered a good price for it)

I really want Arrowhead from this batch. Heston and Palance in the same film? Sign me up.

Bolty · 05-04-2024, 08:21 PM

Orange cats are best!!

SeanJoyce · 05-04-2024, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DukeTogo84

I really want Arrowhead from this batch. Heston and Palance in the same film? Sign me up.

Have you ever seen it? Decent film, but Heston's character is one of the most unpleasantly racist ever on film.

And the final showdown is an absolute joke...no idea how you could screw up a fight scene between these two that badly, but they sure did.

05-04-2024, 07:22 PM	#94757
T.H.E. Cat Senior Member Member since:Feb 2013 Location:Midwest USA 4K collection:272 Blu-ray collection:2112 DVD collection:568 Digital collection:16	Kino on Caturday! Good day, humans! Chico Marx Cat here. Please take a look at what arrived here at The Kitty Cat Condo� just moments ago. Our *Kino Lorber* "March Madness Sale" order was delivered on this rather cloudy Caturday (or as you humans call it - 'Saturday') courtesy of the USPS. For tonight's entertainment, I picked out the KL 4K UHD edition of the Western classic, High Noon (1952), starring Gary Cooper and Grace Kelly. My brother, Harpo Marx Cat, has chosen a caper classic directed by Stanley Kubrick, The Killing (1956). So our 4K double-feature consists of two movies from the 1950s filmed in glorious black and white. Have a great weekend humans and stay safe! >^..^< >^..^<

05-04-2024, 03:05 PM	#94741
BarnDoor Blu-ray Baron Top contributor Member since:Jan 2010 4K collection:219 Blu-ray collection:5479 Trading Score:3	So that leaves 2 40s former Olive titles to be announced, and one is a 4K release. Probably reasonable to suggest it's going to be Sands of Iwo Jima, given at least one of these is a John Wayne title (perhaps both).

05-04-2024, 03:12 PM	#94742
DukeTogo84 Blu-ray Archduke Top contributor Member since:Aug 2012 Location:California 4K collection:109 Blu-ray collection:4450 Blu-ray reviews: 18 Trading Score:126	Very curious about tomorrow's line up of reveals. Three new to BD (in the US at least). Curious what era's they will be from.

05-04-2024, 03:46 PM	#94745
Elvis_Tangerium Active Member Member since:Sep 2017 Location:American Midlands 4K collection:146 Blu-ray collection:2897	Robert Harris's explanation about what happened at Fox is worth quoting in full. I'll put it behind a spoiler tag: [Show spoiler]

05-04-2024, 05:22 PM	#94752
SanCarolina59 Special Member Top contributor Member since:Mar 2019 Blu-ray collection:337 DVD collection:1	If I had to guess at which three may be chosen tomorrow, I think there's a good chance it'll be perhaps three Charlton Heston films from Paramount. There's currently 8 of Paramount owned films left that haven't had a prior U.S. Blu-ray release, and I wouldn't be surprised if KL picked some of them up: Here's the possibilities below, if this is indeed the case: The Savage (1952) (no prior U.S. DVD release) Arrowhead (1953) Pony Express (1953) The Naked Jungle (1954) Lucy Gallant (1955) (no prior U.S. DVD release, also worth noting that what appears to have been a new remaster of this film was recently on TCM) The Far Horizons (1955) Three Violent People (1956) The Pigeon That Took Rome (1962) (no prior U.S. DVD release) Other than Charlton Heston, there's also Bob Hope, who has four remaining Paramount owned films left unreleased: Here Come The Girls (1953) (no prior U.S. DVD release) Casanova's Big Night (1954) That Certain Feeling (1956) (no prior U.S. DVD release) Beau James (1957) (no prior U.S. DVD release. This was previously ruled out in the prior Paramount deal by the KLI as being risky saleswise, but I could see things maybe changing if Paramount's done a new master on it/offered a good price for it)

05-04-2024, 08:21 PM	#94759
Bolty Blu-ray Ninja Member since:Jan 2009 Location:Boynton Beach, Fl 4K collection:65 Blu-ray collection:100 Trading Score:53	Orange cats are best!!

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