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Discussion
I haven’t made a post on here in a while, so please forgive my rustiness.
I don’t believe that Nie Mingjue was justified in any way when he attempted to kill Jin Guangyao after Xue Yang’s trial. They are not peers, Jin Guangyao is no longer his subordinate, he is his sworn brother. Jin Guangyao had no control over Xue Yang’s sentencing, that was in control of Jin Guangshan, Nie Mingjue’s actual peer.
I think that Nie Mingjue was blinded by his dislike of Jin Guangyao and decided to blame him for Xue Yang jot being executed. And it really gets to me when people try to spin that Jin Guangyao had greater power than he did at that time. He was a glorified servant and in no way had the same influence as his brother or father.
I don’t know, it’s just a scene that has always annoyed me. Because Nie Mingjue is openly making an attempt on someone’s life, unprovoked. And with no solid evidence or reasoning. It’s understandable why he did it, as his mental state was extremely unstable. My gripe is more with the murder attempt being seen as a good thing, as at this point, Jin Guangyao’s only lasting loyalty to Nie Mingjue is their sworn brotherhood. As any lasting debts he owed were repaid when he saved Nie Mingjue’s life in Nightless City.
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And JGY didn't even kill him for revenge. The only way he could buy some time was to promise him he'd deliver XY's head in 2 months (which he couldn't do). After that time was up and NMJ's condition worsened even more, I'm absolutely sure he'd kill JGY. So, even though JGY killed NMJ slowly, it was in self-defense.
100% agree with you.
I think one of the big reasons people see NMJ's behavior here as "right," is because they somehow don't realize how unstable his mental state is. He usually has quite a bit of a temper, and he has hurt JGY/made attempts on his life before, but those circumstances were not like this one. He is behaving completely unreasonably in this scene. He resorts to violence super quickly over something that should not be stressing him out that badly. Like, compare this to the death of the Jin captain and what happened in Nightless City--why is he having the same sort of reaction to a prisoner's death sentence being commuted? He basically tells JGY to kill himself at one point, for...???? I'm not really sure what point he was trying to make there. Like, he's trying to say JGY looks down on others or something (not true), but I have no idea how he's connecting "kill yourself" with that.
But even if you can read the rest of that scene and think NMJ's thinking clearly, I don't think he would ever insult JGY's mother like that if he was in his right mind. And LXC himself calls him out for not thinking clearly. Then you have the scene where he burns all of NHS's stuff soon after this--and he would never, ever, ever do something like that to NHS unless something was seriously wrong with him.
A lot of people are also looking at it kind of retroactively: JGY ultimately killed him, so, because JGY kills him, NMJ was right to try to kill him first. Instead of, you know, one of the main reasons JGY killed NMJ being because of what happened in this scene.
If someone who’s supposed to be an older brother to me, who has vastly more physical and social and political power than me, barged into my house and demanded to talk only to immediately take a swing at me and tell me to shut up while they blamed me for something my parent is responsible for, and then assaulted and insulted me in the most personally traumatic way they could and drew a weapon on me and announced their intention to murder me in my own home? And I live in a society where I can’t get any sort of legal protection from them? I sure wouldn’t be sitting around hoping that someone would be there to protect me next time too.
i've said it before and i'll say it again: if nie mingjue didn't want to get murdered by jin guangyao, maybe he shouldn't have tried to murder him three separate times first. 🫖
He made their relationship kill or be killed. He just didn’t expect that he could end up on the wrong end of that, given the aforementioned vastly superior physical, social, and political power on his side.
yep! sorry, da-ge, sounds like a skill issue. 😌
Nie Mingjue is annoying for many of his actions.
Although I agree that Nie Mingjue was out of pocket Jin Guangyao had already fucked up any good relationship he had with Nie Mingjue when he killed those dudes. Like that scene revealed to Nie Mingjue what a cunning manipulative and gaslighter Jin Guangyao is any trust he had out the window so technically that was Jin Guangyao’s fault.
Idk if you’ve ever worked with someone who kisses ass to the manager or supervisor they just rub you the wrong way they’re nice to your face but you know you can’t slack off around them cause they snitch. That’s the definition of Jin Guangyao.
And yeah I know boo hoo his momma a hoe but instead of trying to gain merits on his own accord without seeking Daddy’s approval or wanting to ride on his daddy’s back and as a fatherless child myself it’s distasteful.
But he does gain merits of his own accord. That’s all he ever does! He went to Jin Guangshan as a 15 year old with nothing but a pearl token and his dead mother’s wishes for him, and he was violently rejected and became a public joke for the fact of being a bastard whoreson who dared to ask his father for the recognition that was promised to his dead mother. He then saves Lan Xichen’s life when he’s nobody and nothing. He serves the Nie so well and works so hard that NMJ takes notice of him even though he’s just a lowly foot soldier. Jin Guangshan only ever recognizes him once he’s put his own life at risk multiple times and made himself the war hero who took down a crazy overpowered, megalomaniacal tyrant and ended the war. And even then, that recognition is conditional and dependent entirely on JGY serving the family and doing everything JGS wants him to do.
JGY is one of the few characters in the story who gets anywhere on nothing but his own work and merits. Even WWX gets taken in by the Jiang as a child and given opportunities in life because of who his parents were to Jiang Fengmian. JGY’s mother is a detriment to him in life due to her status, and he reveres her regardless. He’s raised with nothing and gets nothing without having to work for it. Nobody ever looked at him while he was Meng Yao and gave him any kind of chance or opportunity because his father was Jin Guangshan. His father being the wealthy and powerful Jin Guangshan who famously kicked him down a staircase for daring to ask for what was promised to his mother just makes him a laughingstock when he’s only a teenager. His father is a piece of shit who only ever abuses him and uses him for his talents once he’s proven he can be useful by accomplishing incredible things with no status and hardly any martial prowess worth mentioning.
Let me rephrase it he still wants something not belonging to him. He wants status that he’s not entitled to. He still strives to be acknowledged by Daddy.
Now he could of said f that and made a name and reputation for himself without seeking Daddy’s approval. Everything he did was calculative manipulative in such a way to get to the top of the Jin Clan he wanted something that he wasn’t entitled to.
And I get it sucks for him for not being acknowledged by Daddy. But sometimes things don’t always go the way you want them too. At the end of the day all that gaslighting all that manipulation bit him in the ass. He deserved to die.
why is it wrong for jin guangyao to want what jin guangshan is already giving freely and unconditionally to jin zixuan?
Hierarchy, status, ancestor veneration and filial piety was extremely important in Ancient China.
JGY's status as an illegitimate son could never be equal to the status of the first born son of the JGS's legitimate wife, who stands above all other children in the family, including full siblings, as the eldest direct descendant of the Jin bloodline, who is to take over ancestor veneration duties after the death of JGS. Had JGS had concubines, JGY's status would have been lower than the status of the sons of these concubines, because he was illegitimate. JGS had freely and unconditionally given Jin Zixuan what was due to his status as JGS's successor and the next patriarch of the Jin clan.
Because he Jin Guangshan doesn’t f with Jin Guangyao. That’s like you asking me why my daddy left. Like I can’t beg that man to come back he gone he wants nothing to do with me or my siblings. He done have a whole ass other woman and a new set of kids nothing I can do but take the L like a sane person.
See that’s the issue wanting something that doesn’t belong to you. He wants his daddy’s love/approval (yet never got….it if memory serves me right) because it was never meant for him.
I’m not entitled to my fathers love/admiration/approval (I don’t even know the man all too well tbh) but it boils down to that. But it boils down to taking the L.
“He wants a status that he’s not entitled to”
You mean being recognized and accepted into a family by the man that brought him into the world? I for one think that men are responsible for the children that they help bring into the world and children are entitled to that care, but ymmv. I also recognize that in a society where status makes the difference between life or death, wanting that status is not a fault, and that in a society where filial piety is one of the highest virtues, JGY pursuing his beloved, dead mother’s wishes for his life is a virtue.
This reads like Jin Guangshan apologia, by the way. Which… yikes.
No way!
No one is entitled to anything but death if we are being truthfully honest. Nothing in life is guaranteed. You can be recognized and accepted by others and not force yourself into someone else.
It’s like if I forced my father to be a part of my life when he has clearly gone and moved on. Also how could my sentiment ever be a Guangshan apologist when I’m fatherless as well? That sounded incredibly idiotic like you’re jumping to conclusions and not understanding that I personally would not seek the approval of someone who has never regarded me maybe I’m too prideful but I’d never seek the apprapproval of someone who disdains me.
My issue is that he did try to gain merits on his own accord. And each time he was pushed down and abused. He tried for years to gain merits on his own accord, and he did until his death. He didn’t take credit for others achievements and ideas, that was done to him.
I’m also fatherless, but filial piety is extremely important, especially in the world of MDZS. Jin Guangyao can’t just reject his father, it would be a major insult. It was also his mother’s dying wish for him to be accepted by Jin Guangshan, he would never let that go.
By his own merits I mean not trying to win his fathers favor. That was my issue with him. He was also power hungry he wanted something that didn’t belong to him and I get it sucks to be your fathers love child (not that I am one myself lmao) but he sullied his relationship with Nie Mingjue after killing those dudes like he did so, so calculative and he would of gotten away with it too if it weren’t for those dam kids and that dog! (Scooby doo reference!)
Why would he not want to fulfil his mother’s dying wish? That’s why he wanted to be recognised by Jin Guangshan.
Was he power hungry? A lot of Jin Guangyao’s motivation includes safety and stability, of which he didn’t gain until after his father’s death. Jin Guangshan could remove him at any time, he could organise his death whenever he wanted, he allowed his wife to physically abuse him even when Jin Guangyao has the position of Second Young Master.
“Wanted something that didn’t belong to him” Is not as much his father’s child as any of his siblings? Is he not just as much his father’s child as he is his mother’s?
By your logic of Jin Guangyao being power hungry and wanting to go above his station that has been set for him in life, he should have never left the brothel. Does that sound fair to say to anyone? That he should have just stayed complacent and accepted what was set in front of him?
He didn't seem like he was doing it solely to win his mother's approval. Like, his mother wouldn't have wanted him to kill his father...the way he did it...what is "filial" about that. He snapped.
JGY was never the second young master btw. His name was Guang not Zi, he was never totally considered JGS's son.
But what about Jin Zixuan is safety and security? He can act, we all have seen various high-stress instances where has managed to survive. He tricked wrh into thinking he was loyal to him. That man had no reason to look "nervous and fidgetty" about a secret planned attack on wwx.
TBH he is more JGS's son than JZX, MXY, and QS. All of whom seem to have inherited more from their mother.
I think it's because we see this scene through WWX's perspective, who already knows JGY is a bad guy and NMJ is already dead and dismembered, so he's on NMJ's side, even though NMJ is clearly out of line here.
but that's the thing--is jin guangyao a bad guy? like if you consider his actions in conversation with what wei wuxian has done in the text (looking specifically at his murder-torture bender of the wen disciples after the sacking of lotus pier, to say nothing of what he does to wang lingjiao), what do we even really mean when we say jin guangyao is a bad guy?
Getting rid of his own child is kinda not cool though?
it's not, except in the novel it is never explicitly confirmed that it is something that he did. please bear in mind that there is no actual evidence presented as proof that he did it, that when we first hear about jin rusong's death, it is from lan wangji telling us that jgy's political opponent "flew into a rage" and killed him, and that jin guangyao claims responsibility for the deaths of people he objectively did not kill during the guanyin temple sequence. idk i just prefer to leave the jin rusong matter left as an unresolved and nebulous tragedy rather than something that is confirmed to be infanticide by jgy's hand, because that is just repeating exactly what the jianghu did to wei wuxian pre-timeskip.
and again, i just... i have to emphasize that what wei wuxian does to wang lingjiao is just orders of magnitude beyond proportional or proportionate when it comes to exacting revenge for the murder of the jiang clan.
Well, months of frenzy fo things to minds. WWX was wrong doing that but I get why. Snapped.
JGY is out for power. I also get why. But he does what he does in such a cold, calculated manner as an adult, for years, that I judge him harder than a teenager who lost his foster family, his cultivation and then his mind in Burial Grounds...
JGY, dismembering people isn't cool my boy. Using whores to murder your dad and then have the whores murdered also isn't cool. Etc....
I didn't put so much meaning into this ¯\_( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)_/¯ I meant he's a villain in this story, that's all.
But I also find it very ironic that the one character who killed more people than anyone else combined and did it in the most gruesome way is not one of the villains of the story but actually the main hero. And that the only character who actually cared about common people's lives is the main villain.
WWXs actions were justified... They were in line with cultural expectations of the time. They were also within the "eye for an eye" style of revenge that was expected when - WWX and JC were tortured in their own way, one was whipped and beaten, his golden core taken away. The other was thrown into a literal hell on earth to be torn to shreds by the dead that dwelled there. So his torture of the Wens that did that to him (and his act of proxy revenge for JC) was completely justified within that era 🙄 I wish people could grasp this. He killed those that murdered and disrespected his sect's corpse. Again, within line with what is expected of him - if he (and JC) did not do this it would be dishonorable and shameful.
Btw, it's widely assumed that the ghosts he used were the one's who chose how to kill the Wen victims (WLJ you referred to - WWX was no where near and the woman that possessed her to take revenge on her and WC decided to do that). WWX even said he didn't do those things and that WCs "woman" was the one who did it.
JGY on the other hand murders people because they took credit for his ideas or called him and his mother names lol. His revenge is not in line with what is expected of him - it is extreme. He obliterated an entire clan because they opposed his watchtower suggestion.
And as someone said, he murdered his own son lmao. I'd say he is most certainly a bad guy...
i keep forgetting that any discussion of wei wuxian's brutal torture of the wen disciples is basically catnip for torture apologists in this fandom. it's like going pspspspsps and you guys come running. wild.
anyway, i don't want to talk to you specifically about this. bye 👋
Not torture apologists, people who understand history and the cultural setting...
Not that you need that knowledge since it's literally explained in the text. Try re-reading Yi City 🙄
oooooh bold words OP. you're also totally right, fwiw, but bold words!
u/losiphRobertovich I think you misunderstand... There's a difference between genuine punishment and beating a child because he (alongside everyone else) had his chest bared while at the training grounds on a hot summer's day... Lmao!
What YZY did wasn't punishment, that was abuse. No justifiable reason. What an absolutely ludicrous thing to even say 🤣
you just proved my point about forgetting everything about history and culture setting.
I really haven't 🤣🤣🤣
I don't understand how that can be lmao. There's a clear difference between what is punishable and what is not. And even so, it's clearly demonstrated that YZY picks on WWX at every moment. There are many others there and they do not get it once. Your argument is ridiculous 🤣
WWX is the only one to be targeted and abuse is not just physical either you know lol. MXTX demonstrates what is acceptable and what is not - she makes it crystal clear that what YZY is doing is wrong, no matter the historical cultural setting.
As I and others have said, it's not just the fact it's the era it's set in that dictates the rule of what is acceptable in fiction, we go by the text. Yi city gives us an example of the expectations of revenge, just as scenes from the CR arc and LP show us what is acceptable punishment. There are specific items used for punishment, not a high class spiritual weapon lmfao.
I suggest you re-read...
I think the problem is that we try hard to fit characters from MDZS in neat boxes labeled good and bad, when in fact none of them are entirely good or bad. All of them have blood on their hands. The only difference is, as the story progresses, you UNDERSTAND their motivations, while for some others you cannot comprehend it. And for the former, you allow some leeway. Besides, NMJ doesn't kill JGY here, in fact, we can guess that it was after this incident that JGY started playing the revised version of Clarity to NMJ...which was what killed the man. So, who killed who? Is threatening worse than the act of murder?
NMJ has a very black-and-white view of the world. He has a rigid personality and thought process of my way is the right way. The only person he listens to is Lan Xichen, and only because they have known each other since they were kids. He treats you the way he thinks about you.
NMJ's relationship with JGY is multi-layered and very complex. They meet when NMJ sees him taking the insults for the sake of the unit, and they become extremely close. Remember he is the only one other than Lan Xichen who knew about the truth of the Nie Saber techniques. From there, you have a couple of instances where NMJ was directly hurt/harmed by JGY. The man pretends to kill himself just to stun NMJ and stabs him just to run off, he is especially cruel when NMJ is captured. Yes, he did it because wrh would note his actions towards the sect he was prev associated with. But from NMJ's pov, you can't just forget and forgive that, no matter the intention. His men died by jgy's hands. For the situation you described, NMJ is angry at JGY because he is the one who promised to ensure XY gets the appropriate punishment - cleverly worded because JGS is the one that gets to decide and JGY can always argue his way back. NMJ was out of line, and you can tell his mental stability is very bad because that is a version of him we see for the first time in the book. EVEN so, they become closer again.
In any case, you could easily argue that JGY has done much worse unprovoked. He burnt down a brothel of innocent people (including guests) unprovoked, killed clans that didn't support his watch tower initiative unprovoked (allegedly), killed the prostitutes he hired, manipulated the death of Jin Zixuan unprovoked, targetted wwx unprovoked, manipulated and gaslighted Lan Xichen unprovoked etc
This makes you wonder, if nmj had injured/killed him then, how many lives would have been saved?