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Question
Came across this portrait of an unknown woman which caught my attention since she looks very familiar. I believe that this could be Elizabeth Howard, Countess of Wiltshire, mother to Anne Boleyn for the following reasons;
•Big similarities with the portraits of her daughters Mary (for the noses and head-shapes), and Anne. Despite the non-contemporary portraits of Anne, one can see resemblance in the lips, and eyes. Also the woman looks like some of her close family members such as her brother Thomas the 3rd Duke of Norfolk, her father, and her mother. (See third photo) •The sitter seems to be of a higher rank because of the extravagant clothing, and jewelry that she is seen wearing. Elizabeth was extremely wealthy during the reign of her younger daughter Anne as Queen Consort. •The sitter's age seems accurate as the Lady seems to be in her 50's. Judging by the clothing, the portrait was likely made in the 1530's. If the statements are correct, then this was painted during Anne's time as Queen Consort of England (1533-1536), Elizabeth would've been aged about 53 to 56 which matches the estimated age of the woman depicted in this portrait.
•The fact that this is identified as Catherine Howard (see second photo) makes me believe that there is a possibility that this portrait depicted someone of the Howard family, and later misidentified as Catherine herself.
•Found this alleged contemporary depiction of Elizabeth (according to the person who published that depiction). They look kind of quite similar to me. Both have similar eyes, round head shapes, and noses despite the different angles. (See last photo)
Keep in mind I found this portrait on wikipedia commons, and that the person who first published this also thought that it was Elizabeth, and that I dug a little more as I could to try to find more solid explainations to prove that this was the Countess of Wiltshire. There isn't any concrete sources for that theory, as these are all "original sources" that come from my mind.
Despite all that, what are your thoughts? I'd like to know more about what others thinks about this theory. Wish there was a way to identify who that lady is. That portrait fascinates me a lot!!
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I always find it weird these portraits aren't labelled in some way. They were super expensive and intended to be heirlooms, so it would seem logical to at least write it on the back or something 😂
Right? Identifying these portraits is such a headache 😅
It‘s crazy when you research how many portraits can‘t be 100% identified regarding who they depict. I originally always expected that everything was super meticulously noted somewhere.
I know! It's so sad how many have died without their likenesses being remembered, or that their likenesses is somewhere in these mystery portraits, but that these fine paintings haven't been identified even after so long..
“Everyone knows what Catherine looks like, that would be as stupid as identifying what types of eggs we use on a recipe”
This fish egg just makes a strange bread. It’s not enough liquid, maybe we should try ostrich?
that is definitely not katherine howard lol
Definitely not. The sitter looks way too old to be the (19?) year old Catherine 😅
I'm wondering if it was a previous Catherine Howard. An older aunt or cousin possibly?
Good theory, I was thinking the same while writing one of my replies on this post. It must have been a very wealthy, and important Catherine as we can see by the lavish clothing, and jewelry that this sitter has. That ermine fur trimmed cloak really catches my attention.
Were Catherine and Elizabeth Howard related
yes katherine was her niece
It could be any noble woman of the time period really. It very well could be Elizabeth Howard. I think the style of portrait is similar to some of the ones you posted, which means that she may have just been painted in the style of the time period. Which also means that the artist may have been making everyone look very similar.
It's so hard to tell with portraits. It would have been a lot easier if people had labelled things. However, maybe at that time, they would say "How do they not know who this is supposed to depict?"
Indeed, it sucks that they made everyone look similar in portraits as you've stated. Makes identification so much more difficult. Thanks for the feedback! ^
I don't think that's Queen Catherine Howard but is there another Catherine in the Howard family that would be important enough to paint?
I searched the Howard relatives, and here's what I found so far, along with more reasons as to why I think its Elizabeth! The ermine trim fur cloak that the sitter has made me think that it's someone of very high status. Since Elizabeth was the mother of a Queen, and even a lady in-waiting to one, I figured that she would've held big importance. She, and Thomas were very wealthy during Anne's reign after all. However, if it was someone else from the Howard family, I'd have to go with Elizabeth's sisters. She had the following sisters (half-siblings included); Muriel, Margaret, two Annes, another Elizabeth, Katherine, and Dorothy. Those from her mother's first marriage to Humphrey Bourchier weren't as important as Elizabeth, and aren't part of the Howard family so they're definitely not the sitters. Her sister Katherine married twice to obscure individuals, so neither can it be her. Elizabeth married Henry Radclyffe, and became the mother of Thomas Radclyffe. The other Anne married into the De Vere family. Dorothy married to Edward Stanley, and had Henry Stanley. Finally, Muriel married to the Grey, and Knyvett families. I'm not sure how important these aforementioned families were so I'd leave it up to someone more knowledgeable tell me the rest. If it isn't any of her sisters, then perhaps it's one of her sister in-laws, most likely Elizabeth Stafford, the wife of the heir of the Howards, Thomas the 3rd Duke of Norfolk! This was very long, my apologies! 😅
This was interesting, don't apologize! I don't know enough to guess if it's Elizabeth or not, but what you're saying makes sense! I think the other Katherines are ruled out, so I would agree that the portrait could be marked wrong
Thanks! Someone else said that it could be another Katherine belonging to the Howard family. Like a cousin or a Katherine that married into the Howard family. Which makes sense because of the fact that the sitter is identified as Catherine Howard the Queen. Maybe the sitter was a totally different Catherine Howard, and they mistook it as Catherine, the consort of Henry VIII?
My gut reaction is that that lady is too old to be Catherine Howard. Also, I don't think Catherine would have worn that kind of hood. That kind of hood would have been old fashioned, if I'm not mistaken.
Agreed
I think unless Howard looked very… mature for her age, this isn’t her.
I think you have a fair point. I also think it’s Elizabeth.
The only thing that makes me believe it could be her is the hood and pendant. We see them worn with almost all of Henry’s wives.
The hood is very old, but if memory serves (Which it might not) the hood once belonged to Henry’s Mother, Elizabeth of York. Which then was passed down to each wife.
We don’t have a portrait of Anna of Cleves wearing it, but chances are she wore it during her brief time as queen.
There’s a similarity to the Lyndhurst Portrait of Anne Boleyn, so it’s possible?
Right. The eyes and lips are quite similar
There are several Catherine Howards and the name on the portrait wasn't written like it was a picture of the Queen, who had to be at least 10 or 15 years younger when she died than this woman is anyways.
There's Mary Boleyn's daughter, who was born a Carey, was MAYBE one of Henry VIII's illegitimate children and married into the Howards. She was the Countess of Nottingham.
There's a Catherine Howard, who was born a Knyvett. She was the Countess of Suffolk.
There's a granddaughter-in-law of Elizabeth I's spymaster, William Cecil. She was born a Howard. She was the Countess of Salisbury after her marriage.
There's one that was the daughter of Henry Howard and married into the Berkeleys, becoming Baroness Berkeley.
For a period of 6 years, between 1590 and 1596, all four of those ladies were even alive at the same time. They weren't all Howards for that period of time, though. The one that was a granddaughter-in-law of William Cecil didn't get married until 1608 and the Baroness Berkeley probably started using her married name in 1554.
Thank you for the very informative comment! I was also thinking that it could be another Catherine that was related to the Howards, although some of the people you've mentioned would've been around the age of the sitter of that portrait long after the fashion (that the sitter is wearing) had long been outdated. If we observe the clothing depicted portrait, that art piece would've been painted on no later than the 1540s when the gable hoods started going, or went out of style (according to research).
Then we've REALLY got a problem. None of the ladies named Catherine Howard were alive or were the right age when that piece was painted, including the Queen. The oldest ones are the Baroness Berkeley (born between 1540 and 1547, going by the dates of birth of her siblings) and the Countess of Nottingham, born circa 1550.
Oh gosh! 😭 Then it'll likely be a woman belonging to the Howard family who was of a matured age around the 1530s-1540s
Yeah. Too bad they didn't label it properly, then.
One slight correction: the Countess of Nottingham was the niece of Catherine Carey, daughter of Mary Boleyn. The Countess was the daughter of Catherine Carey's brother, Sir Henry Carey. Either way, she was Mary Boleyn's granddaughter!
I kind of think it is Katherine Carey. She is an ancestor of mine and we have very similar facial features.
I don't think so. She's wearing the pendant that several of Henry Vlll's wives wore.
Is it the pendant with the tear drop shaped pearl hanging from the bottom? I haven't seen that one in any portrait of Henry's wives, I'll look into it later. Although, if it were one of the six wives, which one could it be? It couldn't be any of the last 5 due to the sitter's age, and Catherine of Aragon doesn't look like the sitter. Love your observation though, thanks for the reply! :)
Yes, that pendant. I saw it in a video about the Nidds portrait. I think it had portraits of both Jane Seymour and Elizabeth l as a child wearing that pendant.
Ooh interesting! Can you pass me the link of the video please? I'd love to see it!
Sure! https://youtu.be/zO4EdOSJbHU?si=34xsE93Jsf9JHwGf
If this doesn't work, go to YouTube and search for "Nidd Portrait"
They were cousins right?
Elizabeth was an aunt to Catherine Howard