news with tamsin roberts. >> nigel, thanks very much and good evening from the gb newsroom. rishi sunak has warned that giving sir keir starmer the keys to number 10 would leave the country less safe. the labour leader rejected the prime minister's claim, saying that as a former director of public prosecutions , he knows the prosecutions, he knows the importance of security first hand. but rishi sunak says only the conservatives have bold ideas for the future, despite having 14 years with nothing to do but think about the future , do but think about the future, labour have almost nothing to say about it . say about it. >> no plans for our border, no plans for our energy security, no plans for our economy either. and no principles either. keir starmer has gone from embracing jeremy corbyn to natalie elphicke all in the cynical pursuit of power at any price. so labour have no ideas what they did have. they've u—turned

on. >> the health secretary has defended the government's record on maternity care after a major new report revealed endemic failures at hospitals. it found mums to be are often treated as an inconvenience , with some an inconvenience, with some women mocked or shouted at and denied basic needs such as pain relief, the birth trauma inquiry is calling for a national plan to improve services , led by to improve services, led by a new maternity commissioner, who would report directly to the prime minister to the us now. and donald trump's former lawyer, michael cohen, has taken to the witness stand at his criminal trial. he told jurors today he secretly colluded with mr trump and a tabloid publisher to suppress negative stories that could damage trump's 2016 campaign. mr cohen used to be one of the former president's most trusted colleagues , but most trusted colleagues, but he's now the prosecution's star witness as the so—called hush money trial enters its fifth week, a man is facing life in prison for murdering a woman

dunng prison for murdering a woman during a series of violent attacks in south london. 34 year old mohamed noor was armed with a makeshift blade when he attacked johanna cote d'ivoire dogbein attacked johanna cote d'ivoire dogbe in broad daylight last may. he admitted her murder and to having a blade made from scissors, but denied carrying out similar attacks. in the days before her death , the king has before her death, the king has officially handed over the role officially handed over the role of colonel in chief of the army air corps to the prince of wales , in a rare engagement involving both the current monarch and his heir, his majesty formally handed over the title he's held for the past 32 years. the king said it was a great joy to meet servicemen during today's visit to middle wallop in hampshire. prince william will now represent the army's air wing , represent the army's air wing, which includes the unit once served in by his brother. those are the top stories. and for the latest, do sign up to gb news alerts by scanning the qr code

on your screen. or you can go to gbnews.com slash alerts. now it's back to . nigel. it's back to. nigel. >> so a big speech this morning at 11:00 from rishi sunak. a long speech from rishi sunak. i thought, do you know what.7 i'm going to sit down. i'm going to watch all of this. whatever the content of the speech and the riposte that we got from keir starmer. and we'll debate that with guests this evening. i have to say , in terms of delivery, to say, in terms of delivery, after about 15 to 20 minutes, i was beginning to nod off. there was beginning to nod off. there was no energy, there was no spark , there was no fizz. yet spark, there was no fizz. yet the argument he was making were fundamentally important arguments. he's saying the world is a less safe place than it's been at any moment since the cuban missile crisis, and that he is the right man to lead the country . he's just a little country. he's just a little snapshot of rishi sunak this morning , despite having 14 years morning, despite having 14 years with nothing to do but think about the future.

>> labour have almost nothing to say about it. no plans for our border , no plans for our energy border, no plans for our energy security, no plans for our economy either. and no principles either. keir starmer has gone from embracing jeremy corbyn to natalie elphicke, all in the cynical pursuit of power at any price. so labour have no ideas what they did have. they view turned on.7 >> well, unsurprisingly, sir keir starmer responded later on this afternoon the first duty of any government, particularly an incoming labour government, is national security. >> the security of the country and that would be my first priority. now the prime minister today has made a speech. i think it's his seventh reset in 18 months. and i think that really shows you that the choice as we go into this election is now

pretty clear . pretty clear. >> well, i don't know in terms of style , i can't imagine of style, i can't imagine perhaps i'm wrong. perhaps i'm being completely unfair. i can't imagine we've ever had two, two leaders going head to head for who's going to be the next prime minister, who are frankly, so bonng. minister, who are frankly, so boring . i minister, who are frankly, so boring. i think we can minister, who are frankly, so boring . i think we can predict boring. i think we can predict a very, very low turnout. but back to the important question. given the challenges we face, both externally and internally, who is the right person to lead the country forward after the next election .7 farage @gbnews .com election? farage @gbnews .com with your answers please. i'm joined on my right by daniel kawczynski , shrewsbury and kawczynski, shrewsbury and atcham, conservative member of parliament and the associate editor of the daily mail, nigel kevin maguire, welcome back to the program, daniel. he puts the case that you know , under him case that you know, under him there's going to be good stable, solid leadership. but i repeat the point, i just made. it's not very inspiring is it.

the point, i just made. it's not very inspiring is it . well very inspiring is it. well i think i think the prime minister is raising some very serious issues in the issues in the sense that we've joined. we've just become the world's fourth largest exporter, which is great news. and that hasn't come about by itself. sir keir starmer is determined, as you know, to reintegrate us into the european union, which will be disastrous for us. we've actually signed 92 bilateral trade agreements with important countries, all of which are commensurate or slightly better than we had through the european union. we've just joined the world largest trading bloc, the cptpp. yeah, i understand that. i'm delighted with the export figures. i'm delighted that the doom mongers about britain's exports were wrong. i'm delighted with all of that. the point i'm making is that we can't get round it. ultimately there is a very strong presidential element to our general elections. yes you know, it shouldn't be. it should be about mps being voted for in constituencies. and from that number comes a prime minister. but but the truth is we've got a

quasi presidential system. and the point i'm making is that rishi sunak today was pretty uninspiring. well, the most important thing in this presidential style election is that the man or the woman at the top who has that extraordinary, privileged position has honour and integrity. and let's remember one thing when many onorable senior labour members of parliament refuse to cooperate or be in jeremy corbyn's shadow cabinet. sir keir starmer ignored those concerns and he continued to serve, along with a gentleman who wanted to scrap british nuclear deterrent, wanted to pull out of nato and wanted to associate himself with some of the most extraordinary organisations around the world. he much of that's true, he propped up. much of that is true. and if he had resigned, corbyn would have. that is true. but i don't believe sir keir has the honour to be prime minister. do you not think that what really matters to voters is the five next years, not what happened five years ago? oh, i think the next five years are

extremely important. but your pedigree, the way you've behaved today, having having a wife, having a wife who's a non—dom, that's that's good pedigree. well, i don't think equating propping up jeremy corbyn and all his policies is the same as well . i think all his policies is the same as well. i think kevin may take issue with that. i take issue with most of what he said because it wasn't true. that's fine. i just want to get back to this point. i whether you agree, i don't know, but we do have a quasi presidential system. we simply can't get around that. and in fact, when people vote in constituencies, they're voting for or against the national party leader, even more than the man or woman to represent them. i wish it wasn't like that, but it is. i mean, you've been you've been at this a long time. you're a veteran journalist. you've seen election after election through the decades. i'm putting it to you. this is a pretty uninspiring choice. well, if you're looking for bells and whistles and wisecracks and jokes , we tried it with boris johnson. >> i would suggest it didn't end up very well. but no, you're quite right. they both got the air of a middle manager, and so when they have a debate, it's

not going to be full of rhetorical flourishes. but i think you will see basically a financier versus somebody who ran a huge public service. and you will make your choice that way. but no, you're right. i can only go back to the callaghan and thatcher era as you can. actually, i know, i know, i agree in terms of personalities. yes, they're never going to be doing the royal variety show, but is that what you want in a, in a prime minister? and i think with i watched i watch sunak and i followed it. but you're on the right, i'm on the left and i followed it the way you did. and i think it's because his battle is really with himself and his party and a british public. he is seen as turning against him. so he's in the opinion polls. he seesitin so he's in the opinion polls. he sees it in by elections. he sees it in the drubbing in local and regional elections, and he knows he's on the way out. but he's trying every day to get out of bed and think he's still in the game.

>> it must be very difficult now . we talked personality. let's do a little bit of substance here. the whole the centrepiece of sunak speech was we have a war going on in the middle east, a war going in ukraine, all sorts of threats with china, etc. and he's saying to the british public, you know, i am the safest option in a very turbulent world. this is where one of daniel's points actually is pertinent. the fact that sir keir starmer did back jeremy corbyn, he was very weak on these issues. that is a slight achilles for him. >> yeah, but the 2019 labour manifesto didn't say withdraw from nato or scrap nuclear weapons. starmer. is that not from that tradition of the labour party? i think actually defence is one of those areas you would actually see little change if there's a change in number 10, you'd get john healey, who i think will make a better defence secretary for labour than grant shapps, who i think is a bit of a fly by night. >> john healey is very competent

at the despatch box. we watched him last week. he's very, very good when it comes to delivery. one of the big arguments being made today about safety was that the conservatives now have a commitment to spend 2.5% of gdp by 2030, why has it taken 14 years to get to this? well, because when we came into office, we were handed a note from the socialists. good luck. there's no more money left. we spent the first nine years of this administration reducing the annual deficit. no no no no no, the debt has gone through the roof and we had this argument last time i came on your show. we are poorer than we were. yes, but the first nine years we reduced the annual deficit every single year. what's it now to 2019? we got within a whisker of running a balanced budget. what's it this year? well, this year it's huge because on the post pandemic we had to borrow 450 billion to get through the pandemic. we didn't have to lock us down three times. we the decision was taken to lock us down the opposite. perhaps it may have been wrong. the opposition certainly didn't

object to it at the time, and neither did large elements of the media. but in the good times from 2010 to 2019, you will see the we reduced the deficit every single year, just not by the problem. >> i'm not with the labour party. >> the problem with the labour party is that they don't have any policy. you ask about 2.5. they don't have any policies as to how to grow the economy. your argument is you've not got to 2.5% before this, and we can't get to it by 2030 because we can't afford it. frankly right at the moment. well, i think it's one of those very difficult decisions that the prime minister's had to take. all spending is and so kevin maguire , the prime minister, sees this as an open goal that labour won't commit to 2.5. they're hedging around whether they can afford it or not. >> yeah. and he played this card just before the local and regional elections. and who now represents the home of the british army in aldershot, rushmoor council . it is labour rushmoor council. it is labour taking it for the first time. well, well what. >> that's one snapshot election.

>> that's one snapshot election. >> but nigel you know you know our labour committee. >> it's confusing. >> it's confusing. >> yeah. but nigel i do know the policy but you know, the conservatives are spending less on defence as a share of the national income than they did labour did in 2010 when it was 2.5. now labour adopted 2.5% as a goal. the nato the nato figure is 2. it's over 2.3 now adopted 2.5 before rishi sunak did . now 2.5 before rishi sunak did. now he's put a timetable on it which labour haven't. you're quite right. yes, but he did that in order to set a trap for labour. but he set a trap for himself because where is he going to get that money from now? i personally believe we should spend money better, not more, because the mod, certainly through procurement waste and watching this incredibly incompetent and in cash terms , incompetent and in cash terms, we are the world's fifth or sixth biggest spender on military hardware and defence already. we should get those other 18 nato companies that

don't spend 20% to pay their wages. >> what my friend, president trump has been pushing, no, he can make a fair point. >> except when he says, if you don't pay, then putin and russia can do what they want. well, he was that's the that is the sinister. >> he was jotting them along. so just just quickly the conservative commitment is ferm wherever the money is going to come from, whether the deficit goes up or not, labour need to make their minds up. >> yeah, yeah they might. they might yet say they might say, yeah, we'll do the same in an election with a very few differences. >> i bet they will. yeah. >> i bet they will. yeah. >> because yeah. because they wouldn't, they wouldn't be much beyond that anyway. >> no. in a sentence. daniel kawczynski why would the future of our country be safer with rishi sunak as our prime minister than keir starmer? well, i think our prime minister has proved that he's been very effective on the world stage , effective on the world stage, particularly in negotiating our entry into the cptpp , the entry into the cptpp, the world's largest trading bloc, with aukus. the new naval agreement that we've signed with america and australia helping us to get back into the indian

ocean and the pacific ocean, sir keir starmer is untested in foreign affairs, and he propped up one of the most dangerous left wing individuals who would have caused chaos and mayhem for our international standing . our international standing. fine. kevin maguire, in a sentence, please to conclude this debate, why would we be safer and better with sir keir? >> i'm not sure. i'd argue to be safer. i'm just saying we wouldn't be any less safe. wouldn't be un safer. that's what. that's what i'm arguing, i think. i think the two parties are actually very close. but, look, he's a former director of pubuc look, he's a former director of public prosecutions. prosecuted terrorists, work with a security services. look, he he loves the military. now, john healey, does you see that ? it's they take you see that? it's they take great pride in what the what the army, navy and air force can do and just go back to the record of the last labour government, i think afghanistan and iraq were mistakes. but traditionally, and you go through history and you you'll know it as a student of this, there are military in the armed forces traditionally do better in spending under labour than they do under the

conservatives. you must be very frustrated. >> kevin maguire, as an old leftie, you've got you've basically got a social democrat conservative party, a social democrat labour party. we haven't got much choice really, haven't got much choice really, have we? >> no, i mean, look, i am on some things. you're quite right. but, but, but there are , there but, but, but there are, there are other very important differences between starmer and sunak, labour and the conservatives. well, there is i know you disagree, but i think there's much to vote for. i look forward to hearing it. >> daniel kawczynski loyal to the prime minister, kevin maguire, a slightly frustrated leftie, i think. but but hey, he's a lefty that smiles and that really does matter. in a moment we're going to debate the fact that northern ireland, the rwanda legislation, has been disapplied. doesn't this prove the point that right from day one, everything that was said about the brexit deal was simply untrue

? well, after 7 well, after a ? well, after a spirited debate between a sunak supporter and a starmer supporter, i asked you who is the right person to lead this country in a world that is in a very uncertain state? your reactions are fascinating . mike reactions are fascinating. mike says neither starmer nor sunak are impressive. leaders. john says suffice it to say, neither of the twin cheeks are getting my vote and another viewer says neither sir keir or the current incumbent are worthy of holding the office of prime minister i don't trust either to defend the nation. i won't be voting for either of them. i have to say this is the theme that is emerging more and more with gb news viewers. they're just not particularly impressed with the state of uk politics. now i'm joined by mark francois, member of for parliament rayleigh and wickford conservative. of course , we've had this this extraordinary judgement today.

or perhaps it's not extraordinary that mr justice humphreys has said that aspects of the rwanda act are incompatible with our old friend , the european convention on human rights, and therefore , for human rights, and therefore, for he says that the rwanda act will be disapplied to a part of the united kingdom. and i think back to what boris johnson said about the original brexit deal, to what boris johnson said about the original brexit deal , to the original brexit deal, to what rishi sunak span after the windsor framework. we need to be a bit more honest about this. northern ireland is now a different legal territory, isn't it ? it? >> i think technically the judgement related to the illegal migration act, not the rwanda act per se. >> well, actually it applied to that and it also applied to the good friday agreement. yeah, because echr, it's actually quite a big issue. that's fair enough. >> i'll come back to that. so i haven't had time to read the judgement in detail. nigel. and one of the things i learned from you is anything to do with the

eu. you always read the small print, right? right. okay. quite right. but nonetheless , what we right. but nonetheless, what we know is the prime minister said very clearly this afternoon the government are going to appeal against the judgement. i welcome that. it's the right thing to do. but the problem with that is that, you know, this could all become drawn out and protracted in the courts. now, my initial understanding, subject to reading the judgement is this won't immediately affect the ability of flights to take off to rwanda . it would particularly to rwanda. it would particularly affect those people in northern ireland. but nonetheless, it's all part of this wider issue about the echr and how that interact with uk legislation passed by our sovereign parliament. so we're going to have to see how all of this plays out. >> yeah, i mean unravelling i want to leave echr. i'm unequivocal about that, but i accept the unravelling is going to be a very, very lengthy process, and we need a government that is absolutely committed and determined to do it. i mean, if that there is absolutely no doubt. but are you confident? i mean, for one moment, park northern ireland,

as they have been parked legally . are you confident that the illegal migration act, that the rwanda proposals , are you really rwanda proposals, are you really confident this is going to work because you wrote into the legislation that articles two and three of the human rights act should be disapplied, but that court in strasbourg is still there, and it's all well and good. coming up to an election for the prime ministers to say, well, if i'm given a choice between what's in our national interest and what a foreign court says, i'll do the right thing. he doesn't really mean it , does right thing. he doesn't really mean it, does he? >> well, nigel, i won't try and change history in your studio. you know that. i voted against that bill. >> no, no, you did, because i didn't feel that it was as legally watertight as i and some of my colleagues, like sir bill cash , who understand these cash, who understand these matters in great detail, like robert jenrick , like suella robert jenrick, like suella braverman, we all had concerns about whether it was absolutely legally watertight. >> the truth is , over the next

>> the truth is, over the next few months, we're going to find out. i very much hope that these flights do take off. but fundamental vie all of these legal roads lead back to the echr. so my personal view is, you know, that document was drafted over 70 years ago after the end of the second world war, for perfectly honourable reasons. but it's now been overtaken by events. so i would like to see us attempt to renegotiate it. i'm sure the hauans renegotiate it. i'm sure the italians would be up for that. the poles and others would. but if that renegotiation were to fail , and i if that renegotiation were to fail, and i would like to see that commitment in the tory party manifesto. by the way, if that renegotiation were to fail, i believe we have to walk away. and as you know, there's no point going into negotiation if the other side no, you're not prepared to walk away. i mean, that's what happened to cameron. >> we learned that with david cameron. right? absolutely. but but isn't the issue here isn't the truth of it that the modern day conservative party is a split over echr as it was over

brexit? >> not quite. let me give you a just to take your question seriously. what i've just said we should have in the manifesto that we should renegotiate. but if renegotiation fails, we should leave. you would find and get them on here and ask them. there are prominent members of the one nation group who would sign up to that. how do i know? i've talked to them about it, so i've talked to them about it, so i think you could probably get damian green and i to agree that form of words or something very similar to it going into a general election. the question is, would the cabinet, i wonder? >> i really do wonder now moving on. gibraltar gibraltar status. ever since we joined the european union has been a very odd one that there it was , you odd one that there it was, you know, sort of a member of the european union. but outside the vat regime in a very, very you know, unusual position. yeah. and the truth about the border of course, is that the spanish were being beastly on the border even when we were members of the european union. they were let alone when we had all this

influence. >> and yeah, sometimes there were 5 or 6 hour waits and all the rest of it. >> but the big round now is whether british citizens flying into gibraltar , into that quite into gibraltar, into that quite terrifying strip with a c on either end of it. i've done it. yeah yeah. and as you say, you know the royal air force are there. it's a royal air force base, but it would appear we're on the verge and some say that lord cameron, the foreign secretary, is on the verge of doing a deal with the spanish whereby actually, british citizens could be refused , could citizens could be refused, could be refused entry into gibraltar because we'd actually move the border from the border to the airport inside gibraltar. do you know what the truth of this is? >> well, we don't, because we haven't seen a draft treaty and important , haven't seen a draft treaty and important, see if there's going to be a treaty. there will very likely have to be a bill. so that means debate in parliament,

which the government might be a bit anxious about. which the government might be a bit anxious about . now, which the government might be a bit anxious about. now, in terms of the always read, the small print, sir bill cash is european scrutiny committee . they scrutiny committee. they recently wrote to the junior minister, david rutley, a very punchy letter that i've got here. won't read the whole thing, but it basically says we're uneasy about this, particularly the sovereignty in the airport on the 23rd of may, lord cameron is now giving evidence to sir bill's european scrutiny committee . okay, so scrutiny committee. okay, so that would be the time when they'll go through it in chapter and verse. but i think the real bottom line is if it's going to be a treaty, they'll have to be a bill. and that means that the whole of parliament will get involved. it could be the government will will be anxious about that. >> okay. well, i will hope you can get hold of the slippery eel that cameron often proves to be and get some firm numbers. >> last thing, just quickly remember , this has been the case remember, this has been the case for many years. >> defence and foreign affairs are, if you like, reserved matters for the united kingdom. yes. so when it comes to, you

know, out the air base, the berth for nuclear submarines , berth for nuclear submarines, which is vitally important in the defence of the mediterranean , certain storage facilities at gibraltar, which i'm not going to go into in public. these are all defence assets for the united kingdom and our role in the western alliance . so the western alliance. so anything at all which impinges on our freedom of action to use them, is completely unacceptable. and that's why these stories are so disturbing, because of the sheer significance, you know, of, of and geography of gibraltar. >> yeah. mark francois, as ever. thank you . in a moment. well, thank you. in a moment. well, i think that the world health organisation is putting forward a treaty that is completely unacceptable and that our government should not sign up to it. but i'm going to be joined in a moment by an american academic who thinks it's an absolutely wonderful

it's still voting time for the tric awards. you know. and i one news presenter of the year. last yeah news presenter of the year. last year. what found that was that spoilt their evening, didn't it? so you can still vote for me. polls close on friday. it's all up there on the screen , you've up there on the screen, you've got the website you can go to. there's a qr code that you can find as well. there it is. you want to vote for me again? i'd love you to. now moving on to issues that matter, i've launched a little campaign today to say that the government should not sign us up to the pandemic treaty. i think it's a very bad idea. i think , to give very bad idea. i think, to give i mean, i want the who. to be a place where we can work together. we can cooperate, but together. we can cooperate, but to give the who. that level of power would be absolutely mad. well, i'm joined by amesh adalja, senior scholar, johns hopkins centre for health, security and i want to make this point amesh. i want the who. to be somewhere we can work together, cooperate , share best together, cooperate, share best practice, be a sort of early

warning sign, if you like, for many of these things, but the early days of covid 19, it looked like they were doing their best to cover up for what had happened in wuhan. and now they want to grab just this enormous amount of power for themselves. i mean , it was never themselves. i mean, it was never intended, was it? the who. should operate like this? >> no, no, the who. was meant to be a coordinating centre where best practices were shared, where people had, as you said, an early warning system. but we did see major gaps in the early days of covid 19, especially with kind of placating the chinese or a lot of kowtowing to the chinese about what was going on. and there was a delay in us knowing that this was actually spreading efficiently from person to person. and we also had similar problems with the ebola outbreak in 2013 2014, which led to some reforms . but i think that, you reforms. but i think that, you know, there's a lot of room for improvement with the who. to make it what it really should be in a value to all the member countries. >> yeah, which i want it to be as well. now, look, it's quite

interesting that politically, all 49 of the republican senators have written a letter to joe biden saying, don't allow this, this, this dramatic, centralised power grab. i mean, do you see any prospect that countries will just, you know, go to geneva in a couple of weeks and say, you're going too far ? far? >>ido far? >> i do think that there's going to be a lot of pushback. and i'm specifically concerned about the intellectual property issues that have arisen because what we know is that intellectual property rights need to be respected, that that's how we get the innovative medical countermeasures that help us with the next pandemic and outbreaks. and there's a lot of efforts to try and undermine intellectual property rights and some of that is in that treaty language. and i think we need to make sure that that intellectual property rights of uk and us and other companies that are going to be providing vaccines, developing them, that that's that's respected. and i think that's respected. and i think that may end up derailing , the, that may end up derailing, the, the pandemic treaty as we see it now . how. >> now. >> okay. well, i'll tell you what, amesh. i hope you're right

, because we're going to be following this very closely over the next couple of weeks. come back and join us as this story develops. and thank you for joining us this evening on gb news. now one of the battles that patrick christys and i have been having through foi, etc, is to try and find out the truth about migrant crime. what do i mean by that? well, let me give you an example. in denmark the other week they published data on migrant crimes. they did it in terms of league tables, and it showed that people that had recently come in to denmark had conviction rates that were 40 times higher on violent crime than that for those that had been born in denmark, they are absolutely stunning figures . and absolutely stunning figures. and as a result of it, denmark is going to keep a very, very tight immigration policy. but of course, as soon as you talk about immigration and crime, well, you can imagine what the cries are . you know, you're cries are. you know, you're called all the names under the sun, but doesn't the british

government owe us this data because you know, we've seen all these incidents, haven't we? the alkali attack that happened on clapham common, the bombing at the maternity hospital, the stabbing of a couple of gay people in reading again and again and again, we see evidence of those that have come into britain illegally committing serious crime. well, i can tell you that all of our efforts to get the british government to come clean on this have absolutely hit a brick wall. i'm joined by robert bates, research director at the centre for migration control. we are deeply frustrated here. they won't tell us the truth, will they? >> well, no. and you're not. you're not the only one that's having difficulties getting data on these issues out of the home office, the ministry of justice, the centre for migration control. we recently found that the home office wasn't actually able to confirm how many deportation orders were against foreign criminals, normally, a deportation order is issued if a foreign national has received it, there must be a number for that they can give. >> they don't know it. >> they don't know it. >> they don't know it. disruption. disruption to the database means that they're

unable to recall how many people currently have a deportation order out against them, but haven't yet been deported. so this is the kind of chaos that we're dealing with. so i'm not sure if it's nefariousness or if it is just sheer incompetence, which i guess we've come to accept from whitehall. but i almost think the issue is bigger here. it seems to be a kind of acceptance. when they embarked on this mass migration project that, oh, we don't need to check to check in, we don't need any means by which we can track the progress of this, whether it be crime, whether it be the economic prosperity that we were all promised. it seems to have just been accepted that it would bnng just been accepted that it would bring this, this panacea, this golden over the rainbow horizon, and it just hasn't materialised. but we don't have the data. >> one of the ideas that robert jenrick has been putting around is that the home office needs to be split, and that illegal and legal migration needs to have effectively its own department. do you want migration control? think that makes sense, or would it be just as bad as it is, well, i think you'll inevitably end up with a similar kind of capture from certain ideologues that we have currently holding the home office essentially to ransom. i mean, you see the piece out in the in the

telegraph that, you know, they won't simply won't attempt to implement these kind of league tables that track foreign national crime rates. and you just think, who really is governing the country at this moment? because ministers are saying one thing and then they're coming out the other end of a tenure in the home office and claiming that they just simply weren't able to do anything back in 2015. >> i remember in the general election debates when i led ukip, i was making an argument about housing. i was saying a rapidly exploding population meant we were short of houses and the other party leaders said, oh no, no, no, no, no, no, no, it's nothing to do with that. we just need to build more houses. there's no relationship or link between migration, rising populations and housing. and i couldn't believe how nuts it was, over the weekend, we see hugh pill, senior economist at the bank of england, saying that 89% of our housing shortage is due to increase in immigration numbers, which i found quite extraordinary . i felt vindicated extraordinary. i felt vindicated to a certain extent. but nearly ten years later, are the public beginning to make a link between this subject of immigration, which we're not supposed to

discuss in polite society , and discuss in polite society, and the reason that we can't get our parents a gp appointment or our youngsters can't get a house, is there a shift in the way that people are viewing this going on? >> i think the people have made made the joined the dots for years now. i think what we're finally seeing is hopefully some people in these positions of authority with the levers of policy making at their disposal, starting to join the dots and recognise that if you handed out 1.4 million visas every year, you're going to need to build a bit more than the 200,000 houses that we're able to muster. what i thought was interesting, though, about the about the piece from the bank, the bank of england's chief economist. he didn't then rule that migration needed to be brought down. it was that the supply needed to be increased. and i think there what we've seen is the mask has kind of slipped again, that this net migration running at 200, 300 and 700,000 is accepted. and ultimately policy in their minds eye needs to be shifted to suit that that statement of fact and the next big figures out on the 23rd of may, i think i believe so, yes. >> so that's going to be and

we'll find out what the net migration figures for the year are, well, i've no idea. rob. thank you for joining are, well, i've no idea. rob. thank you forjoining us. i've thank you for joining us. i've noidea thank you for joining us. i've no idea what those numbers will be, but i'll tell you what they won't be back to the historic post—war numbers of 30 to 50,000 a year. i can promise you that. well, in a moment, an enormous row has blown up inside the liberal democrats over a candidate. prospective parliamentary candidate who was standing, who over a decade ago had been part of a christian organisation who had very traditional views. he's been deselected as a candidate. is christianity being driven out of british politics whilst we open our arms to islam

? a group of liberal 7 a group of liberal democrat activists have reported outed the party to the equality and human rights commission on the grounds that a hostile environment is being created

within the party for people who are christian. this follows the deselection of david campanale, who was the prospective parliamentary candidate for sutton and cheam, now his great sin, apart from previously working for the bbc. well that wasn't the reason they got rid of him. his previous sin was he was part of the christian people's alliance who took a very traditional view. and by the way, back in 2012 is when he was a part of this organisation. they took a very traditional view that they did not support the introduction of gay marriage by david cameron and they did not believe abortion was right. and it seems to me these are perfectly legally held views , perfectly legally held views, perfectly legally held views, perfectly reasonable views. they might be in modern britain , might be in modern britain, minority views. and yet for that he has been effectively driven out of the liberal democrats. but this isn't the first time, because a few years ago, tim farron , a liberal democrat farron, a liberal democrat member of parliament from up in cumbria, he was leader of the lib dems and in the end, he was dnven lib dems and in the end, he was driven out of what is becoming

an aggressively secular party, dnven an aggressively secular party, driven out of it at the, you know, because he didn't believe in abortion. so i wonder whether it's just the lib dems or whether actually in our national life, people with traditional christian views are being driven out. whilst if you support islam , absolutely no problem at all. it all strikes me as being very odd. i'm joined down the line by doctor gavin ashenden, former chaplain to the queen. this quite aggressive gavin secularised nation. i feel it's happening across quite a wide range of organisations . range of organisations. >> yes, i think it is. and i think the palestinian protests in favour of the terrorist group hamas are another example of it. people are suffering from a kind of groupthink , and for some, of groupthink, and for some, some very odd reasons that are quite irrational. there's a desire to close christians out of public life, but let islam

in, which is really very odd because actually the islamic view of gay marriage is a great deal more draconian than even the even the most christian one. i mean, the idea of the being a group called queers for palestine, when queers get thrown off buildings by islamic groups is simply nonsensical. so. so there's this groupthink going on which shows signs of being dislocated from reality. and i think the problem is that if the people of this country were really given a choice between islamic and christian values, i think they'd want to choose christian ones. they're a great deal more humane. and so this is an odd kind of madness to be settling on our political system. >> but for christian views to prevail and for people to say, look, i prefer christian values to islamic values. let's say that needs leadership, that needs somebody at the front, you know, reaffirming why christianity is the right thing for britain, why it has the right set of values. who is there, gavin, in the public

space with a big profile actually making these strong positive arguments ? positive arguments? >> well, there's almost nobody. and i think part of the reason for that is that people have been driven out of the public space for the last 15 years. i mean, there's not a single job i've had in my life that i could now apply for and be appointed to as a christian. within the present climate, catholics have an advantage because when evangelicals stand for office, they are demonised and asked questions and then thrown out, whereas catholics like rees—mogg can say don't, don't attack me . can say don't, don't attack me. it's the face of the church i belong to. so take it higher up the food chain if you like. and the food chain if you like. and the reason i say that is to. not it's not just because i become a catholic, but because i think catholics have got the privilege for exercising this platform over issues, particularly like abortion, and therefore , i'd abortion, and therefore, i'd like to see more catholics in the national on a national platform saying we want to represent and we're able to represent and we're able to represent because you can't pick us off like you can pick

protestants off. we want to represent these values, but there are very few. but it's not entirely the fault of unheroic people. it's mainly because the noose has been tightening for at least ten years, and the ones who wanted to do it have already been driven out. >> it does feel that way. gavin. stay there. i'm joined by mohammed akunjee and mohammed. you're going to run as a you're a prospective. we have to use that word for legal reasons. parliamentary candidate for bethnal green and stepney running as an independent. you see the point i'm making that, you know, we've got muslim, the muslim vote here demanding 18 different demands of parties. we've got the greens getting people elected and the interesting point is that many, many people running for parliament out of the islamic faith do have harder line views on abortion and gay marriage than a christian liberal democrat who's just been expelled. it's a very odd double standards here, aren't they? >> i would say that that's more an issue of perspective. if you look at the candidates that are coming through now, they're representative of the communities they're from. that's

why they're getting the votes to do it. a lot of them are independents. they're not really they're not adhering to any political particular party, political particular party, political set of credos . and if political set of credos. and if you look at the types of christians and the types of muslims who are in the existing party, they're not the really they're not wearing their religion on their sleeves. i think with tim fallon and with the current situation with the deselection candidate, that's because these individuals chose, and i think, quite properly chose to declare to their electorate that they are christians and they hold christians and they hold christian values, and they were being punished for that, for bringing. >> it's extraordinary. but, you know, i disagree with you because when you see some of the candidates that were elected in leeds, in bradford, in burnley, i mean, some of the language was pretty extreme stuff. i think we've, we've, i mean, come on, it was i would agree and i would thank, you know, i would agree and we have seen in previous years we've had bnp candidates with pretty extreme language because they represent a constituency of people also, even though they may have uncomfortable views , they have

uncomfortable views, they have gone, but they have unpalatable views , but they have the right views, but they have the right to express them and they pick an individual who represents their views well. the right to express them becomes very interesting. doesn't it? as a modern world of hate speech, i'm not sure what we are allowed to say. >> i think that's why gb news is actually quite important in that as, an entity, it allows for the expression of views. however, whatever position the news, editorial line takes on it, it does allow for counter views to be aired and that's really quite important. we're losing that. yeah. >> yeah. what we're also losing is our christian tradition in this country. you know, gavin made the point a few moments ago that it's his belief that our christian values are superior to muslim values . and actually, muslim values. and actually, that's a very natural thing to think. >> yes, absolutely. that right to believe that. yeah. as i believe that maybe the values that i carry possibly trump the values that he carries. but that's for us to debate and discuss. and those are the things that we hold. >> and that's actually fine and reasonable, isn't it? >> absolutely, absolutely. >> absolutely, absolutely. >> that's fine and reasonable. gavin are you still with me?

>> yes i am, yeah. yeah i'm it's very interesting listening, you know, and i'm very, very i'm very , very pleased actually, very, very pleased actually, that mohammed accepts that there were some extreme people elected. >> you know, i mentioned those northern towns and cities in which they were elected . it which they were elected. it looks like it feels like to me we've got sectarian politics coming into britain now. we had it in the past, of course, in northern ireland, maybe bits of liverpool, bits of glasgow, and that was catholic. the protestant. but it does look like people increasingly in the big cities will vote along religious lines and vote for muslim candidates as well. >> i'm very glad mohammed has chosen to praise gb news and i join him in that praise, and i'm sure he and i would get on very well if we had a political debate, and we'd both explain why we think our views are attractive. but the difficulty is that that is islamic culture and islamic religious philosophy doesn't like democracy. there aren't any examples of islamic democracy around the world. and so when the muslim politicians put them as their candidacies to

us, the, the difficulty, they're not committed to the same democratic culture that we are. and at the moment that's hidden. and at the moment that's hidden. and i think it should be exposed, because i think our people like democracy. >> it's a that's a very interesting point. i'm going to put that one straight to mohammed. >> well, the problem is, is that when algeria as a country is a predominantly muslim country, picked a democratically elected government. it was then attacked by european states and forced back into a sort of elective dictatorship where mohammed mosaddeq, democratically elected and attacked by western countries. and i'm sure that, and hamas , of course, well, and hamas, of course, well, hamas democratically elected and attacked. well i don't know if they've been attacked by sort of western countries so much, but they've certainly been supported by the ones who are attacking them, are being supported by western. >> so you're saying to me, if islamic countries get the vote, it produces a very extreme result. >> what i'm saying is no. well, no. in terms of palestine, this an extreme situation of occupation. so you're going to get an extreme type of politics in an extreme situation, whether they're elected or not. it is a

it is a war footing scenario. and even in democratic countries where you have , democracies that where you have, democracies that are very, very well oiled with, with the economies they have, the minute they hit war, they're not democracies anymore. >> well, i want to say to both gavin and mohammed with two very eloquent spokesmen, and we're going to get you in head to head one evening to debate this question of values and what we all stand for. and we'll agree in a very and disagree in a very civilised way. thank you to both of you. now, a spokesman for the liberal democrats has said this decision is currently undergoing an appeal, so it would not be appropriate to comment at this stage. the liberal democrats are home to people of all faiths and none, including many christians. three liberal democrat mps in neighbouring seats of sutton and cheam are practising christians, including party leader ed davey and the party's candidate selection process is overseen by the reverend margaret june ukip. so there you are. but but it led to a much more bigger and more fascinating debate. in a moment with state of the nation,

christopher hope is in forjacob christopher hope is in for jacob rees—mogg . first aidan mcgivern rees—mogg. first aidan mcgivern and the weather. >> looks like things are heating up. boxt boilers sponsors of weather on . gb news. weather on. gb news. >> hi there, time for a look at the weather with the met office for gb news. cloud and rain moves east very slowly over the next 24 hours. showers follow the main band of rain that we've seen across western parts during the day, and it's going to turn cooler across the country as we lose the warm sunshine that we've seen so much of during the last few days. we do keep some clear spells in the east on monday night, but otherwise there is this cloud and rain progressing. its way very slowly eastwards, followed by showers into the southwest , interspersed into the southwest, interspersed by clear spells where we do get some clear spells in the west. temperatures will dip into the single figures, but otherwise it's 12 to 15 celsius. first thing tuesday and a damp, dreary

start for central and southern scotland, northern and eastern england that rain really persists throughout much of the day. it does become more fragmented into the afternoon, so on and off rain and nothing particularly heavy but a marked contrast compared with recent days, with temperatures back to 16 to 18 celsius. a little bit cooler than that, where we've got the persistent rain and where we've got the low cloud hugging the coast further west, we keep some clear spells on tuesday and into wednesday clear spells, some sunshine in between , any showers. but those showers will be quite lively across southwest england in particular, a few rumbles of thunder around driest and brightest for northeast scotland. but otherwise we've got the cloud and some damp weather to contend with in the east. thursday and friday. further sunny spells and showers. temperatures not far from average. >> a brighter outlook with boxt solar sponsors of weather on .

hello. good evening. it's me, not him. that's right. gb news. political editor christopher hope standing in for sir jacob rees—mogg, who is busy tonight being an mp. the job you pay him to do on state of the nation tonight, a northern irish court may have dealt a blow to the rwanda plan after ruling it cannot apply because of the windsor framework and good friday agreement. but does this further weaken the connection between great britain and northern ireland? common sense minister esther mcvey is set to scrap diversity and inclusion. whitehall jobs that she has termed woke hobby horses. but why is she taking waited so long to do this and the labour party has urged the government to halt arms sales to israel following concerns of its military offensive in rafah. but should israel be allowed to finish the job properly of destroying hamas? plus, i'll be speaking to the editor of the unherd website of the government crackdown and

promise to stop funding an organisation blocking the website's advertisement . state website's advertisement. state of the nation starts . of the nation starts. here. i'll also be joined by a theatrical panel this evening. barrister and former tory mp jerry hayes, and the author and broadcaster amy nicole turner. as always , i want to hear from as always, i want to hear from you as a crucial part of our programme. email me mailmogg@gbnews.com. but now it's mailmogg@gbnews.com. but now wsfime mailmogg@gbnews.com. but now it's time for the news bulletin with tamsin roberts. >> christopher, thanks very much. and here are the top stories from the gb newsroom. rishi sunak has warned that giving sir keir starmer the keys to number 10 would leave the country less safe. the labour leader rejected the prime minister's claim, saying that as

a former director of