Speaker So let’s start with some real basics, which is can you just give me a little.

Speaker Who was what was Michael Bennett?

Speaker Was a man who pushed everything. He pushed himself, pushed himself, pushed everybody else, didn’t sleep because he was thinking of new things to do on stage. And if he wasn’t thinking of things during stage, he wasn’t very happy.

Speaker But he had a lot of life force and a lot of vision and a lot of followers for him. What did he look like? He was not the tallest guy. But if he had to make a point, he would sometimes lift his arm like that and make himself appear a bit taller to make a point. He was naturally. He couldn’t stop moving. And some, you know, because he was a dancer. Yeah. Kinetic energy was what he had any and he could be the warmest, funnest guy and he could also just be like a black hole. So if he was in that place, she just kept walking. Anger, depression. I’m not a doctor. I would say they’re probably linked.

Speaker And so how did you encounter.

Speaker Well, my writing partner, Tom, I can relate to Tom, I and I had an idea for a musical about backup groups trying to get into the front of the line in pop music. And then it started to take on more. I had always wanted to have some kind of a score that would be kind of like the Temptations or some of the other African-American RB acts. And he had this idea for the stress. And with a three girl group trying to make it and the intra and the entire stress that happened and we took it to Michael. The idea through our friend Robin Wagner and I played some songs with Sheryl Lee Ralph and Loretta Devine, and I sang the male parts. And Michael was grinning and he said, OK. Let’s do a workshop. And that’s how we met.

Speaker When David came into the picture from my consciousness, when we did our show in town, which was for prospective producers, including David, who as we know, was a good friend of Michael Bennett’s and the Shubert Organization executives and ABC Entertainment and Metromedia at the time. And that’s where I met David. And he was very sweet and he drove me home in his limousine. And, you know, we’ve been we’ve gotten along really well all that time to today to steal. And David came and he came in as a producer, you know, as a potential producer, putting up a certain amount of money and making a deal with his friend, Michael Bennett. They were both little guys that made it big. You know, David started in the mailroom at ICM. And Michael was on Shindig and other shows. And they had a respect for each other, making a big, you know, coming from regular lives and making it big. And they appreciate each appreciated each other’s vision and ability to see far the long view and also to fix things that were in the short view was what kind of a producer was.

Speaker I mean, did you like the show right away? Did you sign on immediately?

Speaker He signed on immediately. He he just liked it a lot. Now, what kind of producer was he?

Speaker He he certainly conferred with Michael about this and that. And if something had to be adjusted or done where someone had to be leaned on or something like that, he was the one to call.

Speaker So he was he was respectful of Michael’s being Hands-On and respectful of Michael as a producer and the Shubert Organization as producers, maybe not quite as much, but he was happy to watch and delegates. And if something did, he hit a roadblock, he might just step in and say, hey, hey.

Speaker Now, were you aware that this was his first?

Speaker I think I was at the Times 30 years ago. I think I was at the time. Yeah.

Speaker What?

Speaker Oh, this was David Geffen’s first Broadway production. And I think he really identified with it in an emotional way because he’s in the record business and had a lot to do with the record business. And because he believes in the various parts of our country, read black Americans and everybody else ought to be Americans and there ought to be a blend so that we can have an even stronger culture.

Speaker So you identify not just the music.

Speaker Definitely. It was an American story, not just music business, because, among other things, it dealt with African-American talent crossing over into the white world of buying records and being interested in African-American people. I think he was also attracted to the fact that this was the first really Broadway musical. If you don’t count Porgy and Bess, which is more like an opera, I think it was the first Broadway musical that didn’t have African-Americans just entertaining and dancing wildly and and singing and being wild and funny. It also was the real lives of these people and how the culture had an impact on their lives. And I think that being a no nonsense person, he saw this as a way to bring the culture forward.

Speaker OK, so so here’s David Geffen, his first theater production, and he’s involved with. And he’s obviously the first musical theater’s. Yeah.

Speaker I don’t know if it was his first reaction ever of any kind. OK. He won and he obviously was there.

Speaker Partially was drawn to material he loved because of what actually because he was drawn to Outdrawn. Yeah. But also, he was there for his friend.

Speaker Yes, he and Michael had a very good balance with each other. As I said earlier, they appreciated he appreciated each other’s struggle to success and how, you know, people think that everyone’s an overnight success when they’re a success. But I think most people also know that’s probably not true. Certainly savvy people, you have to keep doing it. Edison invented the light bulb over a thousand times until it worked.

Speaker And so, David, you would seem to agree he was a friend and a believer in Michael Bennet.

Speaker David. But at the end of the day, David was a realist, is a realist. David is a realist. And he liked what he saw. Having it be from Michael Bennet, who was at the height of his reputation, having had a success par excellence with Chorus Line. Winning the Pulitzer Prize. So on and so forth. David did come to see the show Red and Son. If he had hated it, despite his affection and belief, affection for and belief in Michael Bennet, I believe me he wouldn’t have invested. He doesn’t invest frivolously.

Speaker That’s for sure. And going forward, as the show was getting ready for its debut, David.

Speaker Makes any kind of specific things that he did that were helpful to the show.

Speaker If he did, I wasn’t aware of him. To be perfectly honest, no.

Speaker This story that I’ve read about that he that the show was originally called a dream, and it was his idea called Dream Grows. Is this ring true? You know.

Speaker Big Dreams was simply a title and a temporary title for a workshop that we were doing it. It was never meant to be the title of Dream Girls. And as far as whether David thought of Dream Girls or not, I don’t know that. As I recall, we were in a room with Michael and his business partner, Bob Avian. And it came up that way. And we looked at posters that said, Dream Girls, if it was David Geffen’s idea. I simply wasn’t aware of that.

Speaker Figure out where I got that information.

Speaker So what about what do you know about the cars, David?

Speaker Well, David was able to find some of the best people in making albums that he knew in Los Angeles, such as David. I’m having a brain drain. Foster such as David Foster. People like that. He was the main producer of the album. We also had I can’t think of the guy’s name, the famous Warren arranging guy, somebody. Hey, I can’t think of his first name. Yes, certainly. We had on trade some of the best album session people that we could possibly want. We also had a firecracker orchestra, a very good.

Speaker Things happen in threes.

Speaker That we’re just irritated.

Speaker Oh, we had a really fantastic Broadway orchestra, which the score was was orchestrated by Harold Wheeler, who is fantastic.

Speaker He is the guy who runs the orchestra and dance. Dancing with the Stars nowadays. But anyway, he started with Michael Bennett with being the first African-American conductor on Broadway with promises, promises. And he did other things with Michael. And then so anyhow, he made the most wonderful orchestrations for my music and the orchestra was fantastic. And David Geffen’s contribution, again, was bringing in some of the top flight record producers that he could get.

Speaker And we were lucky.

Speaker Can you just say I’m Henry Krieger.

Speaker I’m the composer of the original Broadway hit Dreamgirls. Oh, I’m Henry Krieger. I wrote the original score to Dreamgirls on Broadway and also all the new material for the film directed by Bill Condon and produced by David Geffen.

Speaker So.

Speaker So as a creative person. Yourself. How does one relate to it with the debut of some special skill in this area was wonderful with artists.

Speaker David?

Speaker David is harsh with people that he’s harsh with. I’m not one of those people. David has always been a great supporter and admirer of artists. And as an artist, I have always felt incredibly supported by him over the years. I’ve telephoned him in Los Angeles if I needed to get an opinion or or maybe have something set up for me. Medially takes the phone calls, immediately acts on it. He’s great. He’s he’s great to have on your side. I wouldn’t want him on. Not on my side.

Speaker So he seems to have this seems to be a recurring theme with David. He was drawn to individual. Great artists, Joni Mitchell, Laura Nyro. You know, whether it’s Tom Cruise in Risky Business and later in an interview with The Vampire, he seems to have a great ability to recognize. Great. How important is that?

Speaker It’s a great producer, understands great talent. A great producer is going to put as a value an evaluation on what he’s going to work with. And in the case of a talent producer like David Geffen, he’s he knows the real deal or not. He knows when there’s talent. He can envision how it would be best presented. He’s very available to his talent, you know, to the people who are working with him. And again, not just during but after years after he’s available is accessible. It’s helpful. He’s a dynamo. And he can take something if he sees that it has great value. He can also see how to market it and how he has great taste and great, great dynamism. He don’t get time much. He’s not he doesn’t get tired. He just keeps going on.

Speaker Sleep, you get an e-mail about 3:00 in the morning and he responds, Yeah. Wait a minute. I was the only one.

Speaker Well, it is three hours earlier. No. One.

Speaker Is that what? Yeah. He seems to be a great guy.

Speaker He is a good thing. And he knows what to keep and and develop and want to get rid of right away. He has an automatic trashman.

Speaker Now, just going back to this notion of talent and David Geffen, David Geffen. How important is David Geffen to a great talent without that, David Geffen, somebody like that?

Speaker How much is a person enhanced by someone like David Geffen? Maybe not just Dreamgirls, but in general?

Speaker Well, let’s say you have a great artist who knows how to paint but doesn’t know how to get it out to the public. David is also a great artist. He’s a great artist at getting artists up and out there and protecting their art and making sure that people find out about it, make sure it’s covered well. To have a great producer for a great artist is catching. And it also makes you feel as an artist. Secure. And the sun was on after you. Someone really good. Somebody nobody’s going to mess with. Somebody who will tell you the truth about something. You know, and maybe help you if you’re falling off a cliff of your own making. I never had that experience for that. I know it happens with someone like David Geffen. They protect you.

Speaker It’s like having a tough brother and a great father and somebody who’s sensitive to who who picks up every nuance of everything. Truth.

Speaker That’s an interesting thing. I think that. Yes, David.

Speaker He’s quick to tell the truth. Oh, yes.

Speaker I like that. I like the truth and I like that it comes right out of him. He’s not a BSR. Very direct.

Speaker And he knows what he’s talking about and where he’s going the next second before he’s even there a intuits things.

Speaker I mean, did he ever say anything to you where you were like you just said that? And then later you really do not. I know.

Speaker Wait, wait. We either deal with with some realistic thing that needs to be talked about or laugh or we’re laughing, you know.

Speaker So.

Speaker Movie. So, David.

Speaker Right, of course, David was producing the movie. And that involved his money, other people’s money and his reputation and other people’s reputations. And he was definitely involved. He watched all the rushes as film producers should and had a lot to say to our director, the brilliant genius Bill Condon. Also one of the greatest guys ever. And, you know, they struggled with each other sometimes, but. Through their joint ministrations to the movie, it all came out, I think, very well. I was very happy with it and I think David was, too. And I know Bill candidness also.

Speaker So David had a quiet time to get the production because he didn’t see the players yet.

Speaker He hadn’t found the right book. The writers, the screenwriter, director or the talent over the 25 years. There wasn’t a big developed Jamie Fox type. There wasn’t a big developed beyond say figure at that time. He’s somebody who understands the times he’s living in. And he observes everything. And he gleans what he needs to glean. And then he moves very decisively. But he didn’t see the right people for those years to make it work to the expectations he had of high quality until. Mid, you know, nineteen ninety two thousand five six. It’s timing and talent and it’s being aware of who’s out there, how their careers going, how they would mix together, who can bring this in directorially writing wise. Yes. He has great taste picking. Bill Condon is director was a master stroke because he realized that Bill’s screenplay for Chicago, where he called me one day, Senate Henry’s David. I said, hi, David. He said, So Bill Condon wants to call you. You know, he’s directing the film. I said, yes, I know. I said, guys are monsters. One of my famous my favorite films. He said, Yeah, but he wrote the screenplay for Chicago. I said, I know that. I said, but I really like gods and monsters. Harrumph. Can he call you? I said I said yeah. Anyway, that’s how it all began with with Bill Clinton. Yeah. He asked me if it was okay if I if Bill called me before he gave him my number.

Speaker It was. But it was. But he’d already identified the cast.

Speaker That is not correct.

Speaker You were saying he was waiting for way right before he.

Speaker Well, the right talent being some of the big stars, such as Beyonce and Jamie Fox.

Speaker He knew that.

Speaker If he spoke to Bill Clinton, they worked it all out. They’d find the right people at the right time. He saw the the kitchen had great ingredients in it. So it was time to put on the chef’s hats and make it happen.

Speaker So David and Michael, stay close.

Speaker I mean, after after Dreamgirls, I wasn’t privy to their personal relationship that much, so I can’t answer that question.

Speaker That’s right. So. David, you know, it was.

Speaker Devastated by Michael’s death.

Speaker I mean, he I mean, a lot of many people, our community was many close friends, I’m sure. I think David was.

Speaker You know, shops and.

Speaker You know, in some ways, I think David saw some of himself in Michael. And so it probably was.

Speaker Could happen to him, it could happen to me. And it’s happening to everybody in our small world. You know, artists and such. Everyone has a different reaction to the onset of plague or the perception of that.

Speaker And also when you realize that because of your way of life, you might be more, you know, in danger than others. Everyone has a different way of reacting to that. Some of us just went into denial, which is not necessarily a terrible thing. But David reacted passionately because he’s passionate about everything.

Speaker And and Michael Bennet was his friend, and they had done well together. I mean, you know, when you go out and hunt together and come back with success and I’m using that metaphor for Dreamgirls, there’s a bond, the Denver breaks. You might become fighting enemies later in life. But the. But probably not because the bond is strong.

Speaker So was it a scary time to sure.

Speaker Was an idea you can imagine today, people probably don’t have an idea of what it was like in your community.

Speaker Tell me why.

Speaker Because it wasn’t, it was. OK. I mean, you know, whoever it was that whoever lived through the 80s, but if you were working in the theater, it was hard hit, especially hard hit our cast.

Speaker And eventually hit our director and hit our book and lyrics guy.

Speaker Had lots of us and some of us are still hit by it, but we’re lucky enough to take medications that keep us, you know, healthy. Say it again.

Speaker Now, the only thing that was even possible then seemed to have been AZT City, which has its own drawbacks.

Speaker Just just on camera, what you were saying just cast a shadow.

Speaker Yeah, well, of course we own, of course, the whole business with the onset of AIDS cast a great shadow. It foreshadowed what would be so different, where you wouldn’t have some of the great lines, such as Michael Bennett and others anymore. And it was already difficult as far as the Broadway business went, because so many of us will be attracted to the higher paying jobs, if you will, for the most part in Los Angeles. Of course, if you have a great big hit here, it’s not so bad. You can do very well. I have and I’ve enjoyed it. I love Broadway. But yeah, the whole business was overshadowed by the plague. People were scared and some people were getting thinner. And then, you know, occasionally you’d say, oh, good, that person’s overweight. Fine. We’re back to the Rubins period. We’re having way too early. It was good. But, yeah, HIV has had a devastating effect on the entertainment business.

Speaker Personally, I think that.

Speaker I mean, David being out in here, David being out in.

Speaker Hollywood and the record business there in the early 80s.

Speaker I think it was quite a different reality even then here in the theater community where or or even in New York, where I think the gay community was much more tightly knit, a much stronger group in L.A..

Speaker Yeah. Because it’s specific.

Speaker But we were relating on a one to one basis, so. And I was open and out. So. I never knew him other than that then open and happy and glad to be whatever it was he was and proud of himself as he ought to be.

Speaker But you see, there’s still very, very few people who are on the camera as performers that will do that. And there’s plenty of them. There are now exceptions, but. For the most part, it’s better to just be an artist and don’t talk about what you do and how you express yourself in your personal life. You know, the unseen hand is made us all individuated. Whatever that is, whether someone believes in the idea of God or nature or whatever you is, it’s religion and spirituality, a very hot button thing. So I’m not going to say what.

Speaker But, I mean, there’s all kinds of stuff going on.

Speaker Much of it is good if it weren’t made to, you know, hide itself.

Speaker David was there for when he was talking. Had people interviewing him for magazines or whatever, you know. Up until that point. Vague. But from that point forward, you know, he became a very public advocate in many ways, not just for just being free and open about who he was for being a totally valid person, no matter what they were.

Speaker And an American citizen and bump up above all the things that should afford one, dignity and rights.

Speaker Let’s say we don’t want to get a mascot.

Speaker So. I can.

Speaker I like David Geffen because I wish, you know, where I stand and I feel heard and that’s good enough reason right there.

Speaker Yeah. I think it’s rare.

Speaker Well, you find that very successful people can hear. Otherwise, they just are blinded and they just keep doing this and they become boring and offensive to other people. So if people feel that they’re being heard.

Speaker It’s opening a door to two traffic both ways.

Speaker I think so.

Speaker OK. So a really final question, absurd even asking, you know, I can’t do this. David Geffen, three words.

Speaker Definite fair. Visionary.