tonight we're here and i'm

welcoming b.j. hollers professor at uw eau claire. he's the founder and director of the valley writers guild. he's a prolific author and editor. he's author of more than a dozen books. by my count, at least, and i might be missing a couple. those include midwestern, strange and hope is the thing wisconsinites on perseverance in a pandemic. he's here with his latest book, wisconsin for kennedy, the primary that launched a president and changed the course of history. you can read great reviews of it all over. let me tell you about our in-house review. boswell, lee and tim mccarthy loves this book. i know his hand sold several already and he says hollers, maybe some of you are here because of tim. so thanks, tim hollers is an excellent narrative nonfiction writer. the captures the drama of jfk's campaign and the depth of the people involved. the books lay out amazing

photography and apt quotations are all highly effective. it is excellent reading and says tim, i've already i'm already handing customers this book with unrestrained enthusiasm. so watch out for tim and please give bj a warm welcome. to. i'm not used to such high praise. i don't know what to do with myself. how's everyone doing the night? doing well. good. i like this lively crowd. thank you all so much for being here. and thanks, of course, to daniel and chris and tim of boswell book company as well as c-span. this is truly the honor of a lifetime so thank you for being here as well. and finally, all of you again, old friends and new, i'm seeing people from my deep past who are here tonight. so it's just been incredible to celebrate this inaugural reading from this book. this book took four years to write. that is a presidential term for those of you keeping track at home. so it's really all the more exciting that i can share it with you tonight. so thank you for coming.

so to begin, can i just ask just by a show of hands, who here has a personal or kennedy story? maybe you met him, maybe a person, a relative of yours, maybe met him. maybe you campaign, maybe you've had a kennedy pen or a bumper sticker. is there anyone out there who's had a a kennedy experience or to mentor? okay. all right. seven, eight, nine. that's pretty good. that's pretty good. whenever i tell people. and we'll get to more of those stories later, by the way. but whenever i tell people that i'm working on a book about kennedy, inevitably someone says, at least in wisconsin, i'll i've got a story for you. and they're usually great stories. and i think that's reflective of how well jfk was at cover or in the ground burning that shoe leather or often the plane he was in. but he did a great job of campaigning and personalizing his campaign, even here in wisconsin, which is pretty exciting. the problem, though, is that when i tell folks that i wrote a book about jfk and i mentioned that there are other people involved, no one has any idea about who some of the other people are. and i really wanted to change

that because they deserve a little air time, too. so at the heart of book, this is about them is a team of wisconsinites who banded together to support kennedy's 1960 wisconsin primary during a time when wisconsin's reception for kennedy was as chilly as the weather in the 1960 primary, kennedy was attempting what no winning presidential candidate had tried before. rather than rely on the party's convention, he leveraged the power of a series of state primaries to clinch his party's nomination and the beginning of that journey took him directly to wisconsin. the first contested primary race that pitted him against the minnesota senator hubert humphrey, who was so beloved in these parts that many wisconsinites called him you probably know this wisconsin's third senator. so the stakes were high. kennedy's father, joe kennedy senior, called the wisconsin primary the crisis of, the campaign, and kennedy concurred.

he himself said, if i am beaten in wisconsin and i'm out, so much depended on the badger state. and in one of the few times in his life, jfk appeared to be momentarily at a disadvantage. here was this silver spooned east coast catholic who hadn't even been to prior to the mid 1950s, facing off against the folksy farmer loving hubert humphrey, who dedicated much of political life to this very region. spoiler alert thanks to the doggedness and creativity of a handful of wisconsin urbanites, kennedy squeaked out a victory, winning 56.5% of the popular vote in six of ten districts on primary day april 5th, 1960. it wasn't quite enough to knock humphrey out of the running, but it did allow those men to have a face off a final showdown, if you will, in west virginia, where kennedy came one step closer to getting the nomination. i guess the point is this wisconsinites not go easy on

kennedy, but by toughening him up in the primary season, we prepared him for the trials ahead. in fact, it was here in wisconsin where kennedy found his footing for the presidency. i suppose that there's no training ground for the presidency, kennedy remarked in a 1962 visit here in milwaukee. but i don't think it's a bad idea for a president to have stood outside of oscar meyers meat factory in madison, wisconsin, at 530 in the morning with the temperature ten above. well, wisconsinites made the biggest impact on their home turf. we can't overlook the better known out-of-towners as well. a parade of kennedy family members who more or less in camped in wisconsin throughout the bone chilling winter and early spring of 1960. and who would stop? nothing to get jack elected. folks like ted kennedy, jack's 28 year old brother, who on valentine's day, 1960 found himself at the top of a ski jump in middleton, wisconsin.

and though he hadn't intended to jump following some ribbing from the announcer and the pressure of 10,000 onlookers who happened also to be 10,000 voters in wisconsin. second district, he hurled himself down the icy track, soared through the air. and upon landing in the snow, reached for the mic and said, did anybody see hubert humphrey at the top of that jump? then vote for my brother. in bobby kennedy. jack's four year old brother and campaign manager, who in the winter of 1960 disembarked from a snow stuck train and huffed it for several miles in a near blizzard to get to a campaign event in my town of eau claire. and who can forget jackie kennedy, the iconic future first lady known for her fashion and trendsetting, though, while in wisconsin, then took a when in rome for lots of feet and posed with prized hams, led singalongs at american legion halls and in one truly unforgettable moment,

commandeered a supermarket loudspeaker to explain to shoppers in kenosha why they ought to vote for her husband individually. none of these people would have been able to push kennedy past the finish line to win the pivotal 1960 wisconsin primary. but collectively, they became unstoppable. i like to of them as a kind of a political ocean's situation where everyone's kind of got their specialty and everyone theirs everybody lent their specialty to the cause. these were people asked not what their country could do for them, but what they could do for their country. and they asked it long before those words ever left kennedy's lips. since the book was released a week ago, i've received some incredible, including emails from former governor pat lewis's niece, who shared how much she enjoyed learning about uncle in a new context. perhaps even more exciting for me. i received a note from the granddaughter of milwaukee journal reporter ira captain

stein, who you'll learn more about soon. she never met her grandfather, ira, who died at a tragically young age. reading the book, she was probably the closest ever get to knowing him, which is the nicest thing anyone's said about my writing. and it speaks to one of my main objectives of this book to bring to life on the page those people whose names may not have ever heard to honor their work and, to learn from them in a modern context. so in the early stages, writing this book, i came across this very quote. it's from rudyard kipling, and he said, if history were told in form of stories, it would never be forgotten. and that kind of became my north star throughout this entire book. so that's what i set out to do. and in the hopes that we don't forget these folks. so i'll now share three brief milwaukee based sections from the book. my apologies for any missed pronunciations. you are the pros and the out of

towner. it's going to be very embarrassing. feel free to shout out a correction as needed. but this first one takes place on 22nd 1957, when senator was dispatched to come to wisconsin to try to tip the needle to help former state assemblyman william proxmire during his special election to replace joseph mccarthy's vacated seat following his death. so part of the problem was that proxmire had just gotten divorced and that did not sit very well with the catholic voters in milwaukee, green bay. so, of course, you bring in the catholic senator or congressman to help him out, which they did. also there that day was a 32 year old proxmire aide named gerry bruno. i love gerry bruno. this guy was an eighth grade dropout. he was a forklift driver out of kenosha. he ended up playing a lot of international trips. and he was president. he planned the dallas trip and some, to some extent, and he's there that day, meeting his future boss for the first time. and under than ideal

circumstances. william proxmire had a problem. his first marriage to l.s. rockefeller had recently ended in divorce, and he'd married ellen sowell. unfortunately, proxmire was divorced weakened. his support in the catholic dists from green bay and milwaukee. it was support he couldn't to lose if he wanted to beat his special election opponent, republic when walter koehler jr a special as he'd already lost to koehler in cubana trail races twice before. if proxmire wanted to win the special election, he needed kennedy help secure in the catholic vote, even though proxmire himself was lukewarm about the prospect of kennedy's visit. the divorce issue going away. but it could be if kennedy spoke on proxmire behalf. but kennedy risked being a liability, too, since he'd done nothing to halt mccarthy's reign of terror. it was a choice that continued to haunt him.

a especially in wisconsin, where kennedy's silence had been unforgivable. nationally, the stakes could not be higher. the winners of two special elections in wisconsin and texas would determine of the u.s. senate. this is why the catholic congressman from massachusetts had been recruited to give proxmire a lift. of course, jack kennedy's first visit to wisconsin was about more than proxmire ever since jack's 1956 nominating speech for stevenson, democrats had begun taking a keen interest in their rising star. kennedy's visit was a chance for the unannounced presidential hopeful to see how well he might be welcomed in key midwestern state information that he and the democratic national committee were anxious to. gerry had never met jack kennedy, but shortly after kennedy stepped from plane. gerry felt an immediate kinship. i think i had the same feeling about john kennedy that i'd heard about proxmire.

the first time i'd met him. gerry later said. a sense of disbelief that this wealthy, glamorous man was thinking about running for president actually gave a -- about what i thought about anything. kennedy was a hard fellow not to like to keep track of acquaintances, assiduously recorded names and personal details on index cards. he wrote thank you notes. he smiled when summoned to wisconsin to mend a fence. he mended it, or at least tried to. minutes after landing, kennedy gerry and the rest of the entourage headed the first stop. the morning garcia's echo park on milwaukee's south side there, kennedy and wisconsin clements of block. he laid a wreath on the memorial honoring the polish lithuanian statesman and war hero while giving a nod to a wisconsin's polish catholic population. the ceremony would have made a fine if only the staffer job. it was to snap the photo had remembered to load the film.

suddenly, the easygoing, self-assured man with whom gerry had felt an immediate was replaced by. a visibly irritated jack kennedy. i laid this wreath. jack said frost, to lead to gerry. meaning what good was to the trouble of traveling to the park, laying the wreath? if wisconsin's community could never see the photo without a picture in the papers, it was as if nothing had even happened. one of the first rules of politics was to spread one's widely, which requires hard loading. the film. it was the kind of misstep which jack kennedy had no patience. he demanded planning and precision. already the trip had failed on both fronts. still, he had a schedule to attend to their next stop a nearby catholic church where the situation continue to deteriorate. at the church, jack was informed that proxmire, a real loner, gerry, later remarked to never

wanted to have anybody involved in his campaigns, had tried to duck out on the appearance. jack seethed. he'd woken early float 800 miles and laid a wreath in an empty park and steeled himself a nonstop day of campaigning and for what? to be ditched by a chronically losing former state assemblyman who didn't want to be seen with him. though the was scheduled to conclude later that night with the dinner in green bay, jack had second thoughts. if this was how proxmire was going to behave, then why not scrap green bay altogether? jerry, who'd been working with for a couple of years by then it was best to backchannel. the problem with proxmire, his wife, ellen. maybe she could talk some sense into him. you know, the senator, is not going to go to green bay, jerry told ellen. he's really ticked off her products because he doesn't want to stay with him. ellen was none of it. get on the plane. ellen, order, husband.

go to green bay with him and be seen with kennedy. he's going to help you get the catholic vote. much to jerry's relief, proxmire begrudgingly agreed. so it was a less than ideal introduction into wisconsin. but beyond that, initial rocking is something really exciting happen that day as well? kennedy met with the milwaukee journal editorial board. his main objective here was to beg the paper not to endorse koehler. and he pulled it off. he did. they did not endorse koehler. it was a game changing moment for the campaign. but in addition to that, he did something more for himself. felicia nash, who was the democratic party chair in the state at the time, was in the room with him and he said that it was what kennedy did was one of the most impressive ad performances that i've ever anywhere. and he made a lot of friends himself. so here he was, of course, to help proxmire. but really, he would actually laid the groundwork for his for his own primary campaign a few years later. so let's fast forward to a few years later, april 9th, 1959,

again, about two years from our past event, we've got 23 year old milwaukee journal reporter ira captain steen, who was covering a dinner at the schrader hotel. this was his first time ever covering kennedy and though kennedy hadn't yet announced his plans to run for president, that was foremost on everyone's mind. and ira kept his pencil and notebook at ready just in case. any major announcements were to be made that night. i recap. and steve, the 23 year old washington correspondent for the milwaukee journal wove his way toward the back of the crystal ballroom. the date thursday ninth, 1959. the assignment. the gridiron dinner. well, ira was one of the younger people in the room. his youth was not to be confused with inexperience. since 1953, ira had taken on any assignment that crossed his desk. first as a student writer for the state university of iowa's daily iowan and later as a reporter for the milwaukee,

covering an array of beats, obituaries to sports. only recently had he landed political beat and it suited him gone where the fluff pieces of the past suddenly iras words took on new importance not only for the thousands of newspaper readers in wisconsin, but also for the politicians. read the ink. ira enjoyed his proximity to power, but the feeling wasn't always mutual. few things could sink a politician faster than a news story. the wrong headline above the fold and a weakened edition could be a career ender out of necessity. a cold peace generally existed between politicians and the reporters who covered them. politics fans were polite. the press was. and social engagements between the two were few and far between. this was precisely made the milwaukee press club's annual dinner. so much fun. it was that rare. let down your hair gathering that was absent of hard

questions and headlines. well, mostly absent of headlines. someone still had to cover the event, of course. and since ira was the newspaper's junior reporter, that duty fell to him. i didn't mind. especially given the dinner's keynote speaker. massachusetts senator jack kennedy. while the visit was officially billed as a speaking tour, kennedy insiders knew it was a fact finding mission. how would the senator received in wisconsin? and more importantly, how might kennedy be received a year later? on april 5th, 1960, the day of the wisconsin primary. that is, if he decided to make a run for the white house by way of wisconsin. murmurs in the press pool that centered around that very question, as well as whether kennedy might use this three day trip across the state as a springboard for a future president. run. oh, how every yearned for some on the record comment on the matter. even a noncommittal commitment

would, which they knew was about all they could expect from john kennedy. for years, kennedy's cat and mouse game with the press was part of a true them in theirs was a grand flirtation and a coy. will he or won't he that kept newspaper readers and writers on the edge of their seats? kennedy loved rebuffing rumors of his presidential candidacy. the advantage of revealing nothing was that a non-answer always ensured follow up question. a few more lines press a bit more chatter. mindful of the uncertainty, he had stoked a straight faced kennedy stood at the rostrum at the front of the ballroom and appeared to address the elephant in the room. i have chosen this forum at this time to make a very important announcement. kennedy began. ira ready to pencil? was this the moment he'd been waiting for? kennedy continued. i will not under any conditions or circum stances, be a candidate. in 1960, cast out of the

milwaukee press. the crowd erupted and. ira grinned. if ever a politician knew how to make good use of the pause before punch line, surely it was kennedy. as the crowd quieted kennedy's remarks turned serious. ira's pencil scratched his notepad, and in listening to the senator, couldn't help but hear the early rumblings of a presidential stump speech placing our trust and respect in the people, an open competition of ideas. the subtext was clear. this was a pre-campaign in campaign speech. kennedy focused much of the remainder of his speech on international issues, with reference as geographically wide ranging as germany. algeria and the soviet union, and an emphasis on the need for bold leaders with bold ideas ready for the world stage. perhaps, kennedy implied a bold leader like him.

i flipped to a fresh page in his notebook. the campaign coverage had begun, so the kennedys were extremely impressed with ira, captain stein, so much so that he actually offered him a job on the campaign. this incredible scene. i was son told me about when bobby kennedy is in milwaukee somewhere, he's getting dressed. he's literally putting his pants on in the hotel room, interviewing ira. and he decided ira's the guy we need ira on our team. what's it going to to get you here? and regrettably, ira had a pass on the opportunity he regretted for the remainder of his life. he'd just been diagnosed with melanoma. melanoma? thank you. fast. yes. correct. and in addition to that, he was trying to support a young family and he just couldn't give up the stability of a full time journalism job for a job that could end as soon as kennedy was out of the race. and so he had to pass bobby kennedy simply did not understand this. and it became a bit of a rift, or at least ira felt pretty,

pretty guilty. and regretful about that. but we fast forward another three years. we're back in milwaukee, back at the schrader hotel. it's may 12th, 1962. this is actually the speech where he gave that line about the meat plant. the meat factory, oscar mayer. so he's walking and something catches his eye. as ira stood amid the crowd outside the schrader hotel. the pang of regret was palpable. he longed for those days of reporting on the campaign trail, stretching all the way back to kennedy's 1959 visit to the milwaukee press club's gridiron dinner. if ira had said yes to bobby, he'd have been on the inside track for whatever came next. he might have followed pierre salinger to d.c. to become jack's deputy press secretary. instead, he was still covering the political beat in wisconsin. the crowds suddenly cheered as the presidential motorcade pulled before the hotel. a moment president kennedy stepped smoothly from the car.

there was the hearty wave, the boyish grin, the much written about tussled hair. ira watched from his place among the crowd, a tinge of regret fluttering within him. the president worked, the line nodding and hobnobbing all the way to the door. along the way, president kennedy's eyes fixed on iris, suddenly a different smile emerged. president kennedy pulled himself away from the crowd and detoured iris. ira, how are you getting along? the president asked. i hear you've been ill. how are you? at a loss for words. ira managed the little response he could. president kennedy nodded. listen and wished him well as the president turned back the crowd. ira was flummoxed by had just occurred. here was the president of the united states, a man whose head was overflowing with 10,000 names. and yet he'd remembered ira. not only remembered him, but

knew enough about him to ask about his health. ira no longer felt regret much as humility. his mattered and his words did, too. you needed only to ask the president. that moment gets me every time. i just love the personal nature of this relationship over all those years. perhaps it makes it more poignant for me personally is that ira cap and sin died at the age of 35 of cancer. that's just seven years after kennedy's. both men who died far before their time. so in my own life, i've only had one presidential run in. and i don't think it was quite the relationship that ira and kennedy had. this took place in 2007. i was college's graduation speaker at knox college and our our commencement speaker was. none other than former president bill clinton. so i had this quick meeting right before kind of this one on one. we're in this big fancy room. i'm shaking his hand i'm a nervous wreck. here's like this rhetoric

wizard, former president and here's like 21 year old barely graduated college b j hollars. and i ask him, how am i supposed to follow you? and he kind of gave me that trademark smile and in something that sounded a lot like pity. he said, you know, i don't really know. it's like it never to him that someone has to follow him. sometimes, you know? so it wasn't exactly the pep i was looking for. but to his credit, he stuck around to the end. there's a photo somewhere where he's, like, laughing at a dumb joke i shared, which i treasure, of course. and if you google if you google bill clinton b j hollars, you will see a google image of me in my mortarboard, like looking like starry eyed in the wrong photobombing. the former president so claim to fame just like the ira relationship. i assure you. i assure. all right. so one last very brief scene here before we get to some questions from you. and it's about a woman whose name is surely very familiar in these parts, dell philips, who, of course, was the first woman

and first black person on milwaukee's common council. her son could not be here today, though he wishes us all well and wishes she could be here. so this picks up on january 21st, 1960, at the pfister, shortly after kennedy made, his official announcement to enter the state primary. vel philips arrived at the pfister hotel shortly after kennedy's announcement. duties at city hall had kept her coming earlier, which was just, as well as some of her colleagues were beginning to accuse her of being too partizan. but this was pollitt x, was it not? didn't siding with your preferred candidate come with the territory? well, it's so good to see you. kennedy smiled, strolling her way from across the lobby. i'm so glad you were able to come. well, i'm sorry i couldn't be here sooner, bell said. i want you to know how very much i appreciate what you've done in coming out and endorsing my candidacy. kennedy said, i know you have done so under a great deal of pressure and strain.

and pat lucey has told me some of the things that you've had to go through, and i want you to know how much i it. kennedy was right. bell had paid a personal price for publicly supporting him. humphrey's standing fight for civil rights was well known throughout the black community. those endorsement of kennedy had hindered humphrey's candidacy and imperiled relationship with humphrey, a man she considered a friend. her decision alienated closer friends, too, including frank warlick, who had been a key advocate in advancing bell's role as a national. unfortunately, warlick was also humphrey's presidential manager. in december of 1959, vell and wallet crossed paths at a bookstore and while ack refused to speak to her we're still bell's own was a humphrey fan. once humphrey received jackie robinson's endorsement. my mother put jackie robinson just about next to god vale. the pressure was all but on

bearable. yet she'd given her support to kennedy because she believed in him. in selecting her candidate, she wanted someone who could win the white house, much as she valued humphrey, he lacked the kennedy flavor. but when kennedy acknowledged pressure bell was under, she pressed to decide. think nothing of it, she said. i know that you're going to do all that. we all know that you can do. senator kennedy smiled and then suggested, well, head up to the hotel suite to visit jackie. all right, bill agreed. the previous november, as jack enveloped posed for a news photographer during a visit to milwaukee, jack had paused to compliment carville's black and white suit. you know, he said. jackie is one just like that? there was skeptical, though. the purchase been a bit of a splurge. bell doubted that she shared a dress with the woman who'd become a worldwide fashion icon. oh really? she said politely. exactly like. kennedy continued with that same

whatever you call that around there. well, thank you much. well said. hardly convinced. i. i hope she enjoys it. well, was no stranger to pandering politic, and she quickly chalked up the senator's remarks as a little more than that. now, on that late january day, months later, velma made her way to the hotel suite to meet jackie. i understand that we have a pseudo, like jackie said warmly, that was surprised at the senator's comment had made it to jackie. yes but i didn't really believe, she said her words trailing off. you. i had a feeling you wouldn't. jackie said, walking toward the hotel closet. so therefore brought mine. well, i was stunned. jackie pulled out a black and suit. it was indeed exact same one. from that moment, she knew jackie kennedy was a man of his word. oh, so i love that, too. kind of personalized in the

story any way he could. that was a real trait of his. so we've covered a lot of ground here tonight. and i really want to make sure i can leave room for your questions and your stories as well. but i also want to leave you with something. there's know if you've heard this, there's a there's a big election coming up the fall. there's an election happening. and so i'm hoping that people can read this book and maybe take some lesson, whatever lesson you want from that. and apply it to today. for me, i think there's a really powerful lesson in learning about this team of wisconsinites. and for me, the lesson is simply this you needn't be the richest, the most. well or the most connected to enact real fundamental and lasting change. as cultural anthropologist margaret mead said, never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. it's the only thing that ever has so often politicians today feel like caricatures. i think people want authenticity, little less cowardice, a little more

courage, a little less cruelty, a little more conviction. kennedy said a man may die. nations may rise and fall. but an idea lives on. ideas do. and perhaps america's greatest idea is that in good times and bad, we are stronger together. we just have to remember what together looks like. thank all so much. i really appreciate it. love to take some questions if you have them. i know some people have some very moving in the audience, too. so if we can make sure there's time for everyone, i'm happy to to share that as well. but let's start with questions. anyone have, any questions? i'll do my best. yes. i haven't had a chance to, certainly. well, i think you mentioned peyton was his name. and so we've done reynolds and others were in the 1960 campaign.

absolutely. john reynolds is not going nearly enough airtime in book. and it's it's simply a matter of i didn't really share the back story this book. but a lot of this came during covid. i wasn't doing a lot of traveling. none of us were. but i came across some incredible archives, online digital archives and jfk museum had one in deep in the bowels of that i found one that said wisconsin. and so a lot of these characters kind of came from and were built from the first person accounts that were in that folder. and for whatever reason, i don't think john reynolds had a very robust one or maybe one at all. certainly i'm familiar with his work, and i think that's one of the regrets of the book is that he didn't get more airtime. but certainly pat lucey, an incredible supporter of of kennedy and one of the cool pat lucey stories i want to share very briefly. first of all, he and kennedy did not get along very well the first time they met at a convention. but he quickly came to terms and understood one another. but years after were actually out. after kennedy got elected, there was a lieutenant governor named philip nash. some of you may remember his name and he was a humphrey guy and he wasn't really part of the

kennedy team, didn't really invite him or reach out to him much. and so there were some sour grapes there. but he eventually during the general election came through huge for for kennedy. so when kennedy called up pat lucey and said, why aren't you asking for a job? you want some patronage. you did a great job here. what do you want do? pat lucey said, i want i want to stay here and raise my family here doing some real estate stuff. but, you know, my friend philip nash could use a job because he lost his own lieutenant governorship reelection, pushing for kennedy and. so the fact that pat lucey could could reach out to an ally, but also someone who wasn't always an ally and pushed him to the front of that list is a really beautiful story. i think thank you for that. yes. yes, exactly. exactly. anyone else? yes, sir. there's a whole literary genre of campaign books. and i'm wondering if you have any particular campaign books that inspired you were served models? it's a great question. and just to repeat it for the camera, any campaign literature books that's, a great genre.

certainly it is such a fun genre. i tell people to works of art really inspired the craft of this book, one where theater theory writes the making of the president series 1960. there are some scenes in there that are so beautifully rendered about wisconsin. i probably spent weeks of my life just reading the same four pages, so that's a big one. the other, the west wing. oh, my gosh. i watched a lot of the west wing. and when it comes to trying to craft scenes where characters are compelling, there's just no better model. aaron sorkin does such good job, but i guess i'll ask you the same. do you have books you recommend in this genre? well, for wisconsin nixon and use by gary wills. nixon. oh, i wait. thank you very much. it's a great wreck. anyone else? any questions? it's. yes tim. so, i mean, i guess it's it's kind of a give away, but in the end, kennedy gets elected.

yes. and then in the very end, you finish with a funeral and is jerry, you know that it's back home. but i had tried make things that day on a dramatic day. i was right. so tim's referring to the last the chapter and it kind of is a play by play of where all the wisconsinites are during that that terrible day in dallas and jerry bruno he'd plan the trip he'd gone down there tried to convince governor colonnaded connally to do it. one way. senator yarborough of texas wanted to do it a different way. there's a huge view. that was the reason kennedy down there to begin with, try to mend some fences again so that you could win texas in the general election. and so jerry bruno planned the trip he get the motorcade the way he wanted. he didn't get them to the right venue where he wanted. instead, governor connally got way, which proved tragic. another kind of wrench in this was that texas christian university was supposed to give an honorary degree that day, or

perhaps the day before. but at the last minute they realized, oh, we don't give honorary degrees to catholics, according to jerry bruno. and so again, like, had they just given the honorary degree, had they taken the different route, had they not gone to the trademark all of these ways? and so jerry bruno, just very profoundly shares how he tried like to do all these different things. and i mean, who could have said what that history would have been like? maybe lee harvey oswald have been in a different place, who knows? but the fact they went right by where they had to go and it could have been prevented, had a different decision been made at any number of occasions. you just can't help a play that harry turtle dove alternative history game you know and it's hard to know but at the same point it's hard to know how history have been different. had he lost the wisconsin primary. right. because now you got humphrey the charge here. but certainly he was not going to get elected. then you got stevenson, you got johnson, you got a whole different dynamic there against, nixon. and so i just give the credit in the world to these folks who you'll read about in the book, hopefully some you are familiar with, of course, pat lucey and philip nash among them, ivan

benjamin, the mayor of madison. but a lot of the folks live in wisconsin, a journalist from milwaukee. there's a great story. i'll very briefly share it. it's one of my favorites. and we want to share the whole tonight. but there's a the state architect at the time named carol yassky. he wasn't a big supporter, but he had this incredible moment where kennedy's in the same hotel when the state architects are having their big dinner. and carol yassky was kind of the emcee for the night. and he here is by way of the mayor i've been in that kennedy's in the hotel chrissy a quick hello to the architects and he says well sure bring them on down here. so here comes jfk very regal jackie's there and he's about to introduce john f kennedy and he goes, ladies and gentlemen, i'm very excited to introduce you to this exciting guest tonight. we have with us robert kennedy. and the quote is of course, that he let him off the hook so easily he had three or four great jokes of how people him with his dad, his on and on. but that's part one. part two of the story is even better.

and that's what happens a couple of weeks later, we we ask at the madison airport, it's like close to midnight. he's trying to get back on a plane and income's the caroline the plane. and here comes john f kennedy off the plane. and yes, i was just oh, my gosh. just trying to like sink in his seat. he doesn't think he'll remember the guy. but just in case, you know, kennedy eyes him laser his eyes, walks over, reaches out his hand and bobby kennedy's the name some guy he met one time weeks before, and he remembered how to play the joke. so i just love those moments. it's great stuff. kennedy had a lot of great one more funny kennedy joke, then i'll shut up about him. but he was trying to win over farmers and wisconsin. i believe in some some farmer kind of crossed his arms, says you don't know the first thing about farmers. i bet you don't even know what a farmer is. and kennedy said, sir, i resent that i know one thing about farmers and that is that they are outstanding in their fields. such a dad joke said your dad. but he won them over. he won them over with humor and that's a that's quite a skill.

yes you one or two more. yes, ma'am. so i haven't read the book. there anything about gaylord nelson? there's a little bit. a little bit in gaylord nelson, of course, was more of a humphrey man himself. and so that created some some issues. but there's not a lot there's a bit where gaylord nelson is supposed to do an introduction and he's very long winded about it can be a bit perturbed by it, but there's not a lot of that. but i did. i did love reading some of the interviews with gaylord nelson just to kind of see the candor of how he felt about people and how people felt about him. you know? so there's a little but but frankly, i found myself most interested in the people whose names you never heard of. and so if i steered anywhere, it's probably for the lesser known figures. but great question. certainly same era, same time period. we have time for one more than if people want to share kennedy's story or two. i'd love to to hear from you. we can call it a night. yes, sir. what was your impetus to write about kennedy versus all the

things you could have chosen? yeah. why did i? why they choose to write about kennedy? and again, like, if you look at my repertoire of books, i'm like the poster child of the liberal arts education. like, there is no common thread here got ufos. i've extinct birds of oregon trail trip with my son like i'm just all over the map but this this was a convergence of a couple of things. it was covered, as i mentioned. and so a lot of my research is go on the road, talk to people. and that was really limited at my university where i teach uw eau claire. i would always walk by this of kennedy on campus. and i was so curious, not just of the photo, but there's a guy in like a black tie suit next to him. i was like, who's that guy? and so it turns out that guy is a guy named peter, and he became kennedy's driver when was in town. it's one of my favorite chapters in the book. it's pete driving kennedy around on st patrick's, and it's just like got this potentially first catholic president on st patrick's day going through small town wisconsin.

a bunch of nuns flag him down. all the kennedy teams like keep driving, keep driving. and pete's like, i think we'll stop. and they're all just like that. that makes life magazine later at lunch, there's a there's a priest who's very boisterous and needs a lot of attention. everyone's like, let's get out of here. and of course pete's like, let's stop and talk to him. so i love him because i mean, he did so much. there's a moment where he likes the keys in the trunk of the car. kennedy didn't love that, but that didn't make the book. i thought a lot more to admire about pete than the missteps, but just the camaraderie of these two. i mean, the reason they met each other was because kennedy was at a campaign event, i think in river falls, happened to meet guy named pete de gaulle, and he was trying to get to a player because, well, i can give you a ride. kennedy and kennedy's like, all right. well, i guess i'll hop in the car with you. can you just imagine that today? i just love i love thinking about that. i'm across wisconsin together. well, i know we have maybe one or two kennedy stories, but we want to share a quick moment. i want to make sure there's time for that. note. i want to share now.

people are thinking, well, please tell me afterward if you do, because i love to hear those stories. yes. one last question. yes. having been a child in what became sort of a kennedy campaign. yeah. a dormitory gave me my parents home. my father was packed. so we lived in madison hills and and with us throughout much of the campaign was a prep school classmate of kennedy named lloyd billings, who was one of one of the kennedy friends who took whatever task assigned to him. and one one note we had bobby kennedy sleeping with. and so i would i would always say it's five, seven, eight year old kid in those years beginning up early, for example, to see william proxmire make morning breakfast of a raw egg, sugar,

egg, throwing it straight down and make one for me. but also to get up. also see bobby kennedy dressed. i learned to trim a very friendly sort of fathering. got i so glad to hear paul calling that right before the reading. i'm just so honored you're here and that you would share those stories with us. i spent a lot of time with ivan destinations daughters. i don't know if you know the message that family has to get. oh, my gosh. see, i'm so glad you're here. that's together. and we actually lived about two blocks from us in indian hills, and they mentioned that to the you mentioned that to. oh, my goodness, i'm so glad you corrected me. i was always we always talk via email. i never get to say it out loud. but but his daughters, ivan's daughters were just they mentioned lucy relationship a lot in the neighborhood and what a neighborhood. wow. i want to move into to that one. that sounds like quite a place to be a fly on the wall there. thank you for that wonderful story, paul.

i appreciate it. yes, one more. i actually in the 19th was that keeping the so i took a lot of phone calls. i knew a phone call to get people out to the polls. and then we always them if they have a right and i arrange the primaries to try and pick up people to go and vote. and then i told you on may 12, 1962, my mother received a ticket from the county supervisor, sir, to go in here. kennedy speaking the old milwaukee arena, which is now the uw arena and and she only had one ticket. and i had majored in political science. so she said, i think you'll get more of this. and of course we had all voted for you and and so drove downtown and. i really didn't know where i was going to park car. so i turned, i lived on the south side and i went to

michigan and made right turn. and i was half way down the hill between sixth and fifth. and the kennedy entourage was leaving the schrader hotel. so they were bringing them up the hill and. kennedy's car was right next to my room and were probably that close. and i'm going, he's coming up. he looks at me. i roll down the window. he he wave. i smile, i wave. then i've been on your own time. i was so is the greater miracle of the day. yes. what's so interesting about that story is that's the same day recap and scene reunites with kennedy. you saw kennedy and then maybe 5 minutes later, he was chatting with i recap and seen i just love when all the pieces of the puzzle begin to converge. i'm so glad you shared that story with us tonight. i gave up going to a friend's wedding and ex-friend, yet we

were engaged at the wedding alone. well, you might have won that round, but thank you all so much for being tonight. it means a lot. thank you very much.