A casual, constructive, and most importantly, welcoming place on the internet to talk about Star Trek
I'm a pretty new Star Trek fan. I found myself interested when I started watching Discovery with my (now) husband. He then got me watching TOS, which was pretty awesome, but by the time we got 2 episodes deep into TNG I was completely freaking hooked. I think back on the days when I thought Star Trek was lame (without ever having watched it) and I cringe at myself. We just finished TNG and the 2 subsequent movies, and I now consider myself a die-hard fan. Yay!
That said, I'm also kind of new to this community, and I don't know how you all feel about Rick Berman; therfore I don't really know how lightly I need to tread or whatever. All I can say is that I just NEED to express my disgust somewhere, and I don't tweet. So thanks for reading!
After TNG, we watched a little bit of the "behind the scenes" episode that was included with the series on Netflix. I think it's important to mention that going into it, I had absolutely no idea who Rick Berman was except that he was a producer. I had no knowledge of his reputation, whether it was good or otherwise. But when he started talking about the characters, he mentioned the most absurd things about Crusher and Troi. All he had to say about Crusher - who happened to have the highest medical position on the ship, saved countless lives in numerous episodes, highly esteemed in Starfleet and advanced her career to include being a commanding officer on the bridge - all he had to say about her whole character arc was that we got to watch her face motherhood from a unique perspective. I mean... Ok? He could have talked about all the super impressive things about her character, and yet he chooses to mention her "motherhood."
Then he started talking about Troi. Not about how we watched her go from a bit of a timid person to the strong character she becomes; not about how the entire ship's crew trusts her to help them navigate their personal shit as well as her own struggle to climb the ladder to become a commanding officer on the bridge; no. He wants to talk about how her hair was "weird" in the first few seasons but they finally got it to a place where it looks good now. And that's pretty much it. Nothing substantial about her character arc, either!
So I turned to my husband and pointed this out, and he says "that's why he's known as 'Rick the Dick." Disgusted, I can't watch any more of that episode and my husband seemed put off by it, too.
Then, I found a YouTube video where he discusses Janeway's character in Voyager. It was more of the same; a lot of hair talk, but he starts it by talking about how they really wanted a "feminine" woman to be captain. That "women who make the rank of captain or admiral in the military are usually not babes," or some creepy sexist shit like that, while making a face indicating his disgust at the thought of a female captain or admiral. I have only watched one episode of Voyager so far, but I can only imagine that Janeway is more than a "babe" with great hair.
I guess I expected more from a producer of a show that puts so much emphasis on equality and fair diplomacy. After doing so much great work, how could he have missed the message?
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I agree with you! I figured some of the weird dialogue with the female characters was a result of the fact that the program was in the early 90's; not the most progressive times, but slowly getting there anyway. I've watched 8 episodes of DS9 so far, and I'm excited to see the difference, now that you've mentioned there is one!
One of the big differences with DS9 is that after a couple seasons, Berman was less involved. He was focused on Voyager and the movies. Kira is probably the best female character in all of Trek, but that's in spite of Berman. Nana Visitor was told "not to sit like a man", but she pushed forward and made Kira into the character she thought she should be.
Nana Visitor did so much for that character. The DS9 writers had this awful fixation on getting Kira into a relationship with Dukat, basically the equivalent of a concentration camp survivor deciding that Hitler is hot. Nana fought tooth and nail to keep it from happening.
One of the reasons I didn't watch DS9 at first was because Kira is so unfeminine, but I had pretty strict ideas about gender roles when I was younger. But once I got over myself (which took a while TBH), she became one of my favorites ever. Nana just charges ahead so hard, without apology and without reservation, it's kind of amazing to watch her create this complex character.
You must also not have met many women. (Seriously. Not being snarky).
I personally find the common charaterisation of Kira as especially belligerent inaccurate. She's maybe slightly more belligerent than Sisko, which is understanable given her background. Sure, she fights her corner like any Trek character worth their salt. But also, given her extremely gritty and traumatic background, she's pretty... nice.
I loved Jadzia. She gets a lot of hate for reasons I don’t understand or agree with. I hated the end her character received and was just not impressed with Ezri at all.
I find this insulting to both Jadzia and 7 although I'm not gonna lie Kira was great as well. DS9 and Voyager had far better female characters than TNG, although DS9 probably wins in that regard.
The problem with Berman isn't that he pointed out the most interesting thing about Crusher's character is the challenges she faced as a mother, it's that under his watch he allowed that to be the most interesting thing about her character.
Hey now, she also got to spend some time as the MacGuffin in a few of Picard's romantic subplots
I think that DS9 is the best Trek but enjoy the whole journey. You do need to watch it through a lens of the time it was made. At its core all Trek had a sense of community and equality of people. It's just that at the time it was made it just didn't always hit all the the right notes. I started on TOS when I was a kid and it really shaped me even when the messages by modern standards could be a bit backwards.
I think it's worthwhile to consider intent as much as execution for a lot of the older episodes. Often the writers wanted to tell a story about love and inclusiveness, but ended up sharting out some heavy-handed morality play that's downright backwards and wrong when viewed 20 years later.
That sort of sums up how I feel about T'Pol in Enterprise...despite the cringy things they did with her character, the actress played her brilliantly. Star Trek is full of actresses who manage to rise above the roles and scripts they were given.
He also sexually harassed Terry Farrell on DS9 so much she left and was the reason why Trek's first confirmed fully queer character only debuted in 2016. In general, Berman hurt Trek.
Since Discovery was my first peek into Star Trek, that was one of the most attractive concepts for me; that and the fact that a woman (a black woman at that!) plays the leading role!
Starfleet is so inclusive of all races, genders, and species; and the principles they hold are everything I hope humanity aspires to be one day. That's the kind of world I would like to raise my family in!
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People probably get defensive because no ones ever actually accused Roddenbury of rape, people have just put two and two together and made five based what's been said. As the man isn't here to defend himself, it feels distasteful to make these assumptions unless someone actually outright says "I was raped by Gene Roddenbury".
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It's well worth remembering this line about hero worship...
"It's my estimation that every man ever got a statue made of him was one kind of sumbitch or another." -- Malcolm Reynolds
It seems to me you should be the one rewatching "the Drumhead". The whole concept of the episode is that witch hunts can easily get out of control. Your whole "believe women no matter what" idea is precisely that. You are the Admiral here, not Picard. Also, it doesn't speak of tolerance to dismiss someone for having a different political ideology than your own.
They didn't write "no matter what".
I know what you mean, I agree, but they are also right. It shouldn't be about zealously BELIEVING WOMEN on a case by case basis, more as a class.
Let's just say such accusations are not exactly extraordinary claims demanding extraordinary evidence.
The "no matter what" was implied by their use of capitals and the fact that they claimed that believing in the presumption of innocence (the very basis of our justice system, no less) is "whining". Their whole argument was so collectivist and tribal, so "us vs them", that it didn't seem like they paid any attention to the morals of "The Drumhead". Or to be looking for a serious conversation really.
If that political ideology is based in bigotry and violence, dismissing it is perfectly valid. Being tolerant of intolerance does not make you moral or intelligent, it makes you a coward and complicit.
The problem is that many people actively accuse others of being bigots just because they don't agree on something. For example, I'm not a bigot for believing in due process and the presumption of innocence. But op would claim that I am. And so, In your view, she would have the moral responsibility to dismiss it.
I'm all for denouncing fascism. But the problem is that, lately, many people tend to point that any idea that doesn't adjust 100% to their worldview is fascist. And that is quite concerning.
I think you're right. The U.S. government is supposed to stand for everything great and free and wonderful in theory, right? But the leadership is chock full of the worst people there are. It's not their fault, that's just who you have to be to rise that high above everyone else.
Roddenberry was a rapist?
That’s a pretty steep accusation. I’d like some kind of proof, as I’m sure his relatives would.
Oh and just because somebody says something, doesn’t make it true. Are we supposed to just believe accusers at their word, because they are potentially victims?
Men aren’t the problem, women aren’t either. You are the problem, you want to tear down the rules of society because you perceive injustice.
Innocent until proven guilty- damn right.
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Sorry you talking to me? I didn’t call any women an opportunistic liar.
If anybody told me of an accusation I would probably believe them, but when it comes to taking action against a perpetrator then yes as a society we need proof, evidential or legal. It’s a fundamental tenant of our society and I will call people like you out who think it doesn’t apply to some.
Calling Roddenbury a rapist is perpetrating an unproven statement and is malicious. You say you ain’t a court of law then stop deciding like one. Saying this is not going to ease the suffering of victims of abuse of any kind.
I understand your motivation- it’s your methods I’m disputing. Why can’t I do that without being accused of a women hating rape denying misogynist? Fuck you.
So if someone accuses you, we should just lock you up at their word? Put your name out there and let all the internet destroy your life? Oh but it didn't happen, and this person (because it could be a man, they can be sexually assaulted too) just wanted to watch your life burn. Seems like a good plan!
Complaints should be taken seriously but it's not guilty until maybe not. It's innocent until proven guilty. It's the ONLY safeguard against lies. People do lie!
Personally, if there is no proof, I'd defend the alleged pedophile as well. People are innocent until proven otherwise, and an unsubstantiated allegation is not valid proof.
That doesn't mean an investigation shouldn't be open. But destroying someone's life based on an accusation doesn't seem fair.
The OP said "likely a rapist". That's not an accusation, that's a statement of an opinion.
Semantics. It’s still a pretty extreme statement, opinion or otherwise.
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Wasn't Dax kind of queer-by-default? Jadzia may have been straight, but the symbiote didn't seem to care.
She heavily, heavily queer coded to the point where it's almost confirmed, but the actual text shies away from stating it outright and sort of assumes the symbiote goes along with whatever the host's original view on the matter is. Basically, the writers never actually thought out what would logically be the case instead of their default.
She straight up kissed a woman told her she loved her and wanted to run away with her and that they were a better match than the hetrosexual previous couple. I don't think it's really coded at that point.
They definitely tried to make it more palettable to homophobes with the Dax symbiote stuff but it's still pretty explicit.
Can you really even be called queer when its involves a different species?
The symbiotes may not even have a gender. Did they ever talk about how they get more symbiotes?
Can you be straight when it involves another species?
No. That's kind of my point. We don't really have a valid word for it, since we have no second species that could give consent yet.
Symbiotes may even reproduce asexually.
Jadzia definitely considers herself to be female gendered. She's always very careful to gender the past hosts correctly too, and makes distinctions between things like being a mother and being a father.
You could argue that the symbiotes are gender fluid or genderless, but joined trill are just their own gender.
It wasn't like 90s TV was a progressive hotbed, he had to work within the industry as it was, not how we would have liked it to be with current hindsight. Given that a lot of syndication partners refused to air a DS9 episode with one same sex kiss, having a fully out character was most likely well out of the question. He also kept the franchise on the air for 19 years across four series as well as in cinemas at the same time, how was that 'hurting" Star Trek?
"Rejoined" was an important episode, but it wasn't as groundbreaking as people make it out to be. There had already been openly gay main characters on television going back to the 1970s; prime time had already shown same-sex kissing scenes. MTV showed an actual gay wedding on The Real World at least a year before "Rejoined." The Golden Girls was more progressive than Rick Berman in depicting gay characters.
IMO, while "Rejoined" is admirable, on the balance I think Rick Berman was part of the "not a progressive hotbed" problem.
Just curious. Who are the openly gay main characters in the 70's? Mr. Humphries from Are You Being Served and maybe Jodie Dallas from Soap are the only ones who comes to mind.
Jodie Dallas is the main one I was thinking of but there are a couple of others listed here.
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But did they need to mention it? I mean how often do we actually say to people "yeah, Jim is gay" or "you know, Sara is straight". I do know Mr, Humphries talked about going out with his gentlemen friends all the time. I honestly can't remember if they actually came out and "said" he was gay, it has been a while since I've seen the series.
With Jody Dallas they definitely said it, along with all the euphemisms. I can't remember if they had Jody kiss someone though. I do know Will & Grace likes to claim they were the first having males kiss with Will & Jack.
I think it was the kiss that was more groundbreaking than the fact that it was two women in a relationship. How of those shows you mentioned showed some sex couples sharing a passionate kiss?
The Real World did. I can't remember if Golden Girls or Soap did. But other shows like L.A. Law and Roseanne had already depicted same-sex kisses. Again, I don't want to downplay that Rejoined mattered, but I don't think it's a full substitute for the fact that LGBT relationships were not so much as acknowledged on Trek for a long time. Even the premise of "Rejoined" implies that their relationship is based on a heterosexual coupling in a past life.
Pee-Wee Berman
In general he was in charge of arguably the best Trek series. People make Berman sound like he's Weinstein. He told Farrell to wear a bigger bra. Did he do anything else? People look at the '90s through lenses of 2020
Do you have any proof for that? Was he ever sued, or in court?
You misspelled "Burnham" at the end there.
(T'was joke)
He didn't sexually harrass anyone. He should start sueing people for libel.
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I didn't creep his history, but how is men's rights by itself bigoted?
One actress implied an uncomfortable conversion with him, a conversion that did not include in any form Berman making a pass at her, or any talk that wasn't connected to her work as an actress in Star Trek. Her appearance as Jadzia was part of the job and as such valid topic for discussion. Even Terry Farrell never used the term sexual harrassment and if you watch the documentary even Michael Dorn her friend doesn't actually take her side, which should tell you something.
And yes I post to mensrights, because I support human rights. And I believe evidence, but I don't treat one gender as more trust worthy then the other, that would be bigotry, hence I focus on evidence and anaylizing statements.
And you have no idea how I feel about women at all. I have voted directly for women in elections and supported women for Prime Minister of Canada and I've cheered for Tulsi Gabbard to be President of the United States.
I like and respect a lot of women. FYI a lot of the most influential voices in the men's rights movement ARE WOMEN, Karen Staughan, Alison Tiemen, Shoe On Head, Cassie Jaye, Janice Flemigo, Diana Davidson, ect...
I go on that subreddit because I support equal access to domestic violence shelters for male victims of DV (I donate to a DV shelter for men in Toronto), I support fixing education so that men and boys facing discrimination stop falling behind, I support fairer divorce laws and default shared custody, I support equal access to paternity leave, I support equal fair funding for men's health, both treatment, research, and prevention, I support changing rape and sexual assault laws to include male victims in states that currently exclude male victims, and I support due process. And I support free speech.
But none of this has anything to do with Star Trek, so if you wish to slander me further I suggest we tale this to DM.
As others have pointed out, Berman had a reputation for being an asshole to the staff.
He basically pulled a power move on Wil Wheaton before the start of TNG’s third season. Apparently, Wil wanted to go do a movie outside of Trek, and it’d cause him to miss maybe one or two episodes of the start of season three. Berman told him “no” because one of those episodes was supposed to be centered around Wesley. So Wil turns down the movie, only to later find out that he had been written out of the episode Berman said was all about Wesley.
A story Kate Mulgrew frequently tells is that Berman allegedly wanted her to wear padding in the breasts of her costume. Mulgrew literally went into his office, ripped the padding out, dropped them on his desk, and said “I’m not wearing these”. She won that fight.
He constantly refused to let Garret Wang learn to direct, despite the fact that literally Jonathon Frakes, Levar Burton, Robert Duncan McNeil, and Roxanne Dawson were all allowed to learn that field while they were working on Trek and be in the regular run of directors. Patrick Stewart, Michael Dorn, Gates McFadden, Tim Russ, Avery Brooks, Rene Auberjoins, and probably other cast members I can’t remember off the top of my head were also occasional directors who learned that craft while they were acting. To run even more salt in the wound, he let Robert Picardo write Voyager’s sixth season episode “Life Line”. Also, he constantly refused to promote Harry Kim because “who would play the ensign?” according to Rick. He shafted Garret pretty bad during Voyager.
I’m sorry Terry Farrell got spoiled for you earlier, but what’s done is done so I’ll elaborate on her situation. She wanted to drop down to a recurring character for DS9’s seventh season; if you’ve seen any DS9 at all you probably realize that this really wouldn’t have been a big deal (Ira has said multiple times that he could have accommodated that wish with ease) since DS9 had so many recurring characters. Rick was basically trying to play hardball with renewing her contract and refusing to meet Terry half way on easing up her schedule, so in the end she decided to sit out DS9’s last year.
So yeah, Rick was an asshole. This stuff is just how he treated some of the actors, to say nothing of some of his creative choices during Voyager and Enterprise...
First of all, I’ve known for a long time that Berman was some combo of homophobe/misogynist/etc, but I appreciate this list. Helps to have it laid out so well.
I do want to add, though, that saying WHEN Farrell leaves is more of a spoiler than just “she leaves.” I have been a lifelong TNG fan, so stumbled across the Dax spoiler before I watched DS9. However, not knowing when it happened, I had multiple instances in the series when I thought, “oh no, this is it,” only to be wrong. So when she actually leaves, I was still surprised and not expecting it. Just an FYI for avoiding spoilers (not that you should feel TOO bad for spoiling a 25-year-old show).
Fair enough. I tried to keep further spoilers limited, but the damage was already done and the timeframe was relevant for the full context unfortunately.
Yeah, and selfishly, I appreciated that, since I'd never heard that story before. I actually *just* watched that episode and maybe cried a little bit since Worf is one of my favorite characters AND WHY CAN'T HE JUST BE HAPPY... so I am particularly peeved to know that it was all caused by Berman being a prick.
Do we have any proof that he was a homphobe other than there were no gay characters in the show? DS9 did feature the first lesbian kiss on open TV... and the truth is, I'm not sure networks would have been too happy about a gay character back then. We are all super progressive and open minded now, but in the 90s it wasn't so easy. So I don't know if we can call him a homophobe for this. Maybe he could have tried harder, but that hardly makes him a homophobe.
Several writers have stated that Berman specifically shot down references to gay characters (including cases where the dialogue merely referenced an off screen same-sex couple).
And I believe them. But again, this is no proof that he's a hompphobe. As the showrunner, the guy needs to make sure his product will be aired. If networks won't air gay stuff (or if he thinks they won't), then it's logical that he would shoot down these references. I'm not saying he's not a homophobe for this, just that it is possible there are other reasons why this happen. At work, I can think of many occasions on which I've vetoed ideas a subordinate brought to me, even when they were great, because I knew they wouldn't work for some reason. This could very well be the case.
My point is that homophobe is a big word, and maybe we should try to put ourselves in other people's place before we make such extreme assumptions.
Thank you so much for sharing all of that. I am really looking forward to the rest of the series in the franchise!
Well, most of the series are still pretty good despite the crappy behavior going on behind the scenes. DS9 especially is regarded just as highly as TNG. Some thinks its even better once things ramp up in Season 3. Don't let the drama take away from the amazing performances by the actors. If anything the fact they still did a stellar job despite all the pressure they were enduring should add to it.
Also his choice of music score style after he got full control from Roddenberry around TNG Season 3 or 4.
Season 3 had some incredible music, but he wanted sonic wallpaper so the lead composer was fired, and the new composers (one of whom did great stuff with his first episode, Tin Man) were forced to make the most boring, forgettable scores possible for the rest of TNG, DS9 and Voyager.
Except for The Inner Light, the only thing I remember about TNG's music after mid-season 4 is the swelling of string instruments that almost always occurred right before commercial break, and moments of tension marked by 2, maybe 3 notes in a minor key stretched over many seconds.
Gates only directed once, and she's said that the female TNG actors were not encouraged to try directing, only the men. She didn't say if that was down to Berman, though. Also she was basically fired from the show because an unnamed producer wanted her gone for unspecified reasons (but the name that I've seen offered most often was Hurley, not Berman.)
We can also ignore Berman's social and ideological problems and talk about the ways he tried to pull back on the shows. The oral history mentions him saying no to a lot of interesting ideas to take the show because he saw himself as the inheritor of Roddenberry, and stuck so closely to certain "rules" (such as humans never being in conflict with each other, no zippers) that he drove the writers crazy. (Granted, writing within limitations can lead to cool ideas that you wouldn't otherwise have come up with, but he also shot down an idea for the finale of DS9 that I think would've been the boldest thing that could happened on any Trek ever could've done. )
What was the bold idea?
Probably the one where it's revealed the entire series happened in Benny Russell's mind.
So, a St. Elsewhere ending that would've fucked everything up both retroactively and going forward.
Say what you like about Berman, but he was right to say "no" to that one.
From interviews I've heard with her, Gates seems to put her firing down to speaking up about ideas for her character, and the writer/producer in question just not having it. She was coming from prior theatrical experiences where everyone's opinions were welcome, and they could debate and throw around ideas. At TNG, it was a very top-down hierarchy, where an outspoken actor was a problem actor, especially if you were a woman.
I read somewhere Garrett Wang was always late to set, forgetting lines, not putting in the work, if that’s true no wonder Berman never let him direct.
It was Berman’s doing. He was set to be fired instead of Jennifer Lien but made the People Magazine’s hottest people that year and they couldn’t fire him. Berman made him pay for that in the scripts
So you are arguing he was objectifying men as well. Garrett Wang wasn't fired because he was hot. Interesting point. So it was not probably sexism what drove him to have hot women on the show if this applied to men as well. Interesting.
Wang was already attractive or he wasn't regardless of the award.
What the award was, rather, was publicity for the show
Interesting point. Yes. Interesting. I am very smart.
Indeed.
Don't expect ideologues to submit to logic...
The question we should ask ourselves is, was the above necessary in order to successfully produce a show in the 90s? In order to give these 'asshole actions' its context.
So he wanted one of the main characters of the cast stay regular, how dares he.
How about reading the full context of the situation before condescendingly defending the asshole. It’s also worth pointing out that he had no problem with Colm Meaney do side stuff while TNG and DS9 were going on as well.
What is it with Ricks?
Often shitbags, occasionally pickles
Listen to some of Marina Sirtis’s talks at conventions. She speaks her mind and doesn’t care for bullshit. And she’s hilarious. Opposite of Troi in personality really.
She doesn’t name names, but tells about things like getting phone calls, “We pay you to look good! So you’d better lose 5 pounds! HANG UP.”
It's true though, she was paid to look good. It's part of the job description when you are an actor. But this doesn't apply only to the women. Patrick Stewart was super fit, despite being 47 years old. So was Data (I don't think a fat android would have worked very well). And on Enterprise the guy who played Travis spent more time on his underwear than on his uniform, there must have been some pressure there as well (he had a great body, though, so I'm not complaining)..
True though it is telling that the TNG female uniforms are tighter than the male uniforms plus they always have one female regular in a more revealing outfit than anybody else.
That's what I like about the Disco updated ToS uniforms. They feel like military uniforms while also being flattering to *everybody* that wears them.
Well, yeah, and Playboy magazine featured naked ladies and no nude guys. What's your point? Women were always more sexualized than men on the media back then. This was also the case in TOS, and in every single TV show until 2005. It was the industry standard. I wouldn't blame Berman alone for that.
Also, have you ever seen a Zac Efron movie? I don't think the guy is cast for his acting skills. Or, not that alone. That was the same case with Marina Sirtis and Jeri Ryan. Beauty sells, and Berman - as every other TV producer back in the day - had to play by those rules. Let's not demonize him for that...
How's my translation?
You bring up an interesting counter argument; doesn't looks matter in Hollywood/acting jobs? Isn't it the actors' job to BE the producer's vision for that character? Do producers not have to cater to what the network wants which is to sell the show?
But apparantly the downvoters have nothing to say to you on this topic...
The difference is that where men are concerned there are broader standards for attractiveness, and many more roles for men where attractiveness is not required. For women in Hollywood, there are much narrower standards, and fewer roles for those who aren't conventionally attractive.
I don't think there are broader standards for men. It's just that when it comes to selling sci-fi shows networks want to pander to who they think is the bigger demographic; teenage boys.
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So the problem isn't the showrunners (or any one of them) ... it's the juvenile little boys who tune in to watch 'babes'?
If Roxann Dawson wasn't your cup of tea that's fine, but to say she wasn't conventionally attractive is absurd and honestly only proves the point that women are held to a ridiculously narrow (and often very white) standard of appearance that men are not.
Rick is pretty well known to be sexist and responsible for a number of Trek's issues. He was basically the head producer as far as hierarchy goes, and female actresses either imply or express a fair amount of negative contact with him. Not a good guy. He's pretty frequently criticized for exactly the issues you mention, as well as others.
I could go on, but since you're pretty new to Trek and haven't seen everything, I don't want to spoil any content in the process.
On a happier note, I'm really pleased to welcome you to the Trek community! You'll find many diehards here. I myself have loved Trek since I was probably 4.
Thank you! I'm so excited to be here.
Was he the producer who was so shitty to Terry Farrell that she left?
And I heard he harassed Denise Crosby.
Terry Farrell leaves?! 😵
And a few months ago, my husband showed me some tweets that went back and forth between Denise and Rick, and I think he did say something about him being the reason she left. I might Google it now
Shit, my bad.