Welcome, fellow Buffy fans! This community is dedicated to Buffy the Vampire Slayer. If you haven't watched through the entirety of both "Buffy" and "Angel," there will most likely be a lot of spoilers. Read at your own risk! For as long as there have been vampires, there has been the Slayer. One girl in all the world, a Chosen One...
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The entire main story arc of season 4. The idea of a Frankenstein story was excellent and they had all of the pieces in place to make it work, but it somehow never quite came off. Adam always seemed faintly silly in a non-threatening way.
I love the irony of a Frankenstein storyline that's composed of all these great pieces sewn together but the writers just can't quite bring it to life.
Personally I thought the story would have been more cohesive if the Initiative itself had been the Big Bad. It already stretches credulity that there's a secret military base under a random university (with military personnel posing as faculty, even though they could just stay underground) without a Frankenstein's monster made of demon parts running around. It's just more complicated than it needs to be.
Yeah I would have liked (well, depending on the execution lol) them being interested in Buffy as the slayer in the same way they’re interested in the demons. But instead they’re like “oh you’re from a secret mystical line of demon slayers with superhuman strength? Interesting. Anyway..”
I actually think problem with the Iniative is they weren't connected to the university enough. There's a lot of interesting stuff the show could have said about how deeply entwined America's universities are with the military industrial complex.
And it wasn't like the Iniative's base was under a "random university." They obviously picked UC Sunnydale because of the density of supernatural activity in the area. And given that the Initiative has been around in one form or another since at least World War 2 (the Golden Age of University/Military partnerships) it would make sense for them to have a long standing relationship with UC Sunnydale.
But BtS was never particularly interested in exploring the systemic nature of evil. The Initiative story line would have fit a lot better on Angel.
It's interesting and I have no doubts it's true.. but at the same time from European standpoint such "university and military partnership" sound like far fetched science fiction... like, wtf.
It is so much more messed up here than you could even imagine.
You say it sounds like science fiction, but that's sort of the point. Ever since the Second World War the world has been trapped in an increasingly high tech arms race. A ton of stuff we take for granted today (drones for example) would have sounded like straight up scifi when I was kid in th 90s. The technology behind those weapons is developed at research institutions like MIT (and many, many others) who recieve copious funding to partner with the Department of Defense. Hell, the internet we're talking on right now is the end result of a DARPA project.
It's a very ugly situation, but it's one that a lot of Europeans don't have to think about because they've outsourced their defense the US. We develop the weapons, station them in NATO countries, or just transfer them outright in technology sharing agreements. European defense ministries will also sometimes enter into direct research partnerships with the DoD. It is a vast, interconnected web of fuckery.
I think the rule about Buffy killing humans would have made this awkward, sadly (a rule she conveniently forgot with the Knights of Byzantine, but they harp on it later)
I mean I don’t think the rule extends to allowing a human to kill her or her loved ones. That was active warfare where it was kill or be killed. The reasoning for not killing human is there are laws set up for human evils. But what the knights were doing isn’t exactly set up for the court systems either.
Before and after then she seemed to be operating on Batman logic where there was always a way to intervene without killing. Not saying you're wrong, I just find it funny that she goes HAM on the knights who are arguably the good guys in that situation since trying to save Dawn was a massive risk to the entire world.
Having read AP material that suggests that Shelley sought to reject alchemy as part of the ethos of the novel, I guess interpretations versus the end result have always been there?
Same as queries overly interested in the environment and settings mostly in the background.
The fact that the initiative was so completely incompetent and actively self-destructive definitely reduced their intimidation factor. Adam's first word on the show being "mommy" didn't help either.
He lacked connection to the main cast. His biggest connection was to Buffy through Riley, but even then it was poor at best. I genuinely think the entire season just served to set up Dawn and Glory, and in that regard I’d argue it executed it pretty decently.
Agreed. Adam was disconnected and had no emotions or quirks that would have made him engaging for the audience.
I kinda liked the (extremely infrequent) instances when Adam actually had comedic dialogue:
Adam: “Scouts’ honour.”
Spike: “you were a Boy Scout?”
Adam: “… parts of me.”
And when he’s fighting SuperBuffy at the end of season 4:
Buffy: “broke your arm.”
[Adam’s other arm converts in to a machine gun]
Adam: “got another.”
TLDR: if Adam’s writing had been like that throughout the season, he could have been potentially a comedic Big Bad.
Exactly! That showed some potential for development into a fuller character, but it never quite took
I thought it would have been so much better if they had her fall in love with Riley and then bring out Adam later but shocker! It’s Riley!
That would have tied in more with Buffy’s boyfriends going evil and more angst from everyone who got to know Riley. Plus it would have gotten rid of him easily instead of that stupid blood whore storyline.
Is that too much of a rehash of the S2 storyline?
That would have been perfect!!!
That is why Glory is such a welcome villain in the next season. She’s likable, has such great strengths and flaws, and she has such a great relationship with all of the Scoobies she interacts with.
I agree the lack of connection to the cast was an issue, but the Mayor also didn't have much of a direct connection to them until Faith joined up with him. I think that Joss and Marti didn't know exactly what kind of story they were trying to tell with Adam, whether it was about government overreach, or playing God, or where duty and morality differ.
Also, Adam was just kind of dully written and the actor seemed to have been told that since all of the makeup and prosthetics would be difficult to emote through, to play him as cold and expressionless. All of his motivations were explained rather than simply shown as they should have been in order to allow the audience to fill in the blanks
Maybe Walsh should’ve lived until the finale.
The actress wanted out mid-season.
Why was that?
How did it set up Dawn and Glory?
Because of the spell they cast to defeat Adam they each have dreams about themselves. Their worst fears, etc.
Quotes from the wiki because they described it better than I can:
“Buffy's dream includes several references to past and future episodes. In a dream sequence in the season three finale, Faith says "Little Miss Muffet counting down from 7-3-0"; foreshadowing Dawn's arrival two years later in season five. This number appears (as 7:30) on a clock in Buffy's dream in "Restless". Buffy says, "It's so late." Tara replies, "Oh... that clock's completely wrong." A year has now passed, making the previous number of days to her arrival incorrect. When Buffy leaves the room, Tara tells her, "Be back before Dawn." The character Dawn appears in the next episode.”
I always thought the 7-3-0 was a foreshadow/countdown to Buffys death. Cause thats two years after Faith's dream. Dawn really shows up one year (and maybe a few months for the summer) after the season 3 finale.
I didn’t know about the 7-3-0 thing or that Tara said be back before dawn. I did remember in a dream Buffy and Faith were making a bed and Faith said it was to get ready for little sister.
But even with these things season 4 still barely had stuff about Dawn. The entire season definitely wasn’t just to set up Dawn and Glory like you claimed. Also there was nothing about Glory at all.
It could be bc he was obviously made out of cardboard and tinfoil
I sew what you did there.
Yeah all I know about this is Maggie was supposed to be the Big Bad but had to leave for a movie so they scrambled
I've heard so many different stories on that, from her leaving unexpectedly halfway through shooting the season due to a conflict with Joss and/or Marti to her departure having been planned all along at that time. Sad thing is, everything I've heard is at least equally believable.
I feel the same way. He was never a threat. They fought once, then he just did random stuff while monster of the week episodes happened for 10 episodes.
Every once in a while they'd feel the need to remind us that he was there despite his playing no role in the story that week, like in Superstar where he's all "This is a fake world," and then proceeds to do jack shit for the rest of the hour
Seriously. What was he even doing?! And then all of a sudden he’s like I’ll make more of me? Plus it made the Initiative less of a threat. Buffy works with them for less than an episode before Maggie tries to kill her and then she gets killed at the end of that episode. That should have at least been 4 or 5 episodes in and of itself. I think that season just tried to do too much. It was Buffy’s first time in college and that shit with the guy she slept with. Then there’s all the Oz/Willow stuff. Then the two parter with faith. Not to mention the filler episodes all fell flat like the one with her first roommate and beer bad.
They let the voice changer do A LOT of the work with that character because the actor had so much shit on his face and body that I'm sure emoting was a challenge. But he didn't seem crazy huge or crazy powerful or anything truly threatening he just knew how to use the Initiative and the people inside it to do his bidding. However he also wasn't smart so it was mostly that he got lucky about certain things. Really she could have fought an Initative Robot and it would have been the same thing. Might have been more fun if she was versus some kind of AI.
He was actually super smart. He's the only big bad with an elaborate plan that would have worked perfectly if not for the power of friendship
You have point. I guess I just never saw the danger of Adam outwitting them lol.
The paradoxical thing is that Adam is actually physically much stronger than any enemy that came before and after. He is not as dangerous to the world as the First or as Glory, but no one was able to take on Buffy in a physical confrontation as much as Adam
I’m pretty sure glory could have ripped Adam’s arms off. Buffy was only able to take glory when she had a god killing hammer. I would not be surprised if she would have been able to do the same to Adam.
Yes Glory could have easily destoryed Adam , but as an immediate ie. one-on-one danger to Buffy he was somewhat greater. Buffy couldn't beat Glory but she could fight her, buy time for this , that, or t'other. Adam, Buffy just bounced off. It's both not like amd a bit like how in boxing it involves style as well as over-all ability; Tony Galento kayoed Lou Nova, Max Baer beat up Galento, Nova knocked Baer out of boxing.
However, if I remember correctly she had previously faced Glory briefly, always escaping at the end, but still surviving. I think Adam would have incinerated her in two seconds. Glory has the advantage of being immortal, but she seems less strong than Adam
it was ruined by the want to be matrix shit for the final battle. it was just one of hundreds of matrix rip-offs of the time
The Initiative, I think a shady secret government demon project is sensible and kinda cool in theory but for a few reasons the show didn't manage to pull it off. Also, the Willow and Xander affair in s3 was less a "good idea", more giant elephant in the room that the show shouldn't have ignored, but I thought the fallout from it was pretty much botched, particularly Oz getting to have next to no feelings about it aside from telling Willow to not talk to him until he was ready for for them to get back together in like two scenes.
My assumption is that they never admitted it was more than the kiss that they got caught for when they were trapped in that basement. I don't think Oz would have forgiven them or let it pass so easily if he had known it had been going on so long.
I kind of feel like Cabin in the Woods was Joss' actualization of what the initiative was meant to be/should have been, and it worked so well there.
Also, to a lesser degree, in the vein of the supernatural and paranormal being tied up in corporate minutia, Wolfram and Hart did it better. And Dollhouse, of course. Joss obviously had a pet trope with that one.
From Angel, definitely the idea of Cordy being a villain. Great concept but awful decisions were made along the way in that writer's room.
Also having her hook up with Conner was not a good idea.
Very worst thing that ever happened in the Buffyverse IMO (and I actually really like Connor as a character unlike most people)
Yeah I don't mind him but the whole thing was icky.
🤮
Mhm.
Done right and not as some sort of petty vengeance against the actress, it could've been a really great arc leading up to season five.
But we got what we got and rest is history.. 😮💨
Nooo... Cordy became a villain in Angel???
Why are you here?! Save your eyes
Relax sis... I'm here for Buffy. I know I'll be downvoted but I didn't really enjoy Angel, so I stopped watching it near Doyle's death.
kind of. she was possessed by something else. I think the original plan though was to have her corrupted by something (the writers said they wanted something similar to Angel becoming Angelus in Buffy) but they had to change their plans due to Charisma's pregnancy. it was all a bit of a mess in the end.
Yes and no. Go watch Angel! Its underrated.
To be honest I started to watch Angel, but I didn't enjoy as much as Buffy, so I stopped watching it near Doyle's death.
It gets so, SO much better after that
I don’t think it was a great idea to begin with. Supposedly before Charisma got pregnant the original idea was basically to rehash season 2 of Buffy and have Angel kill Cordelia after she goes evil and that just seems trite and unoriginal to me.
Robin Wood.
Child of a slayer raised by Watchers is a great concept but man was he just a boring disappointment with major mother issues.
Like rather than being a slayer wanna be, he could’ve been this badass watcher in training to help guide the next generation of Slayers and not have him be too hung up on his mother.
I think it would have been interesting if they introduced Robin before season 7. We could have learned about him and his backstory with his mom, and have him stick around for a few episodes. Then have him return in season 7 (after he finds out who killed his mom) and tell Buffy he wants to help them defeat The First, but his secret main objective is to kill Spike. Which would kind of make it easier to understand Giles' position in helping him, not to mention having him introduced earlier would probably makes viewers empathize with Robin more. It was just too much going on in season 7 and his storyline felt forced.
Robin Wood felt like the writers saying, "Hey, what if we did Blade?" But then gave up after an episode and a half.
I'd have loved to see Robin take some of his anger out on the watcher's counsel. THEY were the ones who taught his mom that her destiny was to fight, and they were the ones responsible for the use and abuse of the slayer line- instead of "try to take unnecessary revenge on a vampire (that the audience loves) and get his ass whooped," why doesn't Robin say, "you abused my mother and every woman who came after her."
Oh wow something I didn’t even know I wanted or needed but now I wish I had
The spike beat downs on him were so amusing as well- like this is the guys whole character and he just gets stomped on.
Aww I have the opposite reaction to that scene. It’s acted so beautifully I always really feel the loss and pain. I cry every time. It’s one of my favorite scenes. But you aren’t wrong 😂
Buffy and Riley breaking up because the latter feels the former is too emotionally closed off. Interesting concept and way to tackle our lead’s flaws in a non-glamorizing fashion, but exceptionally horrendous execution that confirms Riley would be on r/NiceGuys and once again has Buffy punished for the horrible crime of being and acting like a normal human.
Good god, the way Xander makes it seem like Buffy was doing something wrong for handling her incredibly horrible situation the way that helped her the most makes me SO angry.
I think Xander was the one who was really in love with Riley. He even talked about how much he missed him after he was gone.
Honestly he wanted to keep the bromance alive. Lmao he used to miss Oz and we all know what he did to him. So it’s pretty much Xander wanting another dude in the friend group.
and a dude who isn't an attractive vampire XD
I think Xander was accepting that he was never going to end up with Buffy at that point but on some level still wanted to see her with an idealised version of himself (i.e. who he'd want to be in a perfect world.) Because, as he sees it, at least he's "losing out" to someone he respects and not a vampire.
I get the interpretation that Xander (as Buffy's symbolic Heart) expresses her romantic doubts, or the feelings she represses. However Buffy was 100% in the right to focus on her seriously ill mother over her relationship. And Riley was wrong to make it about him at a time when she was already overwhelmed. I do think his concerns about their relationship being onesided were valid but his timing and way of voicing them was just terrible.
Strongly disagree! I think you're misunderstanding it like most people on here.
Riley wasn't upset Buffy wasn't emotionally available during her mum's illness
He was upset because of Buffy's personality.
Whenever Buffy struggles, she relies on herself and avoids opening up to anyone.
While when Riley struggles, he relies on and opens up to her.
It is only natural he would feel dejected that Buffy doesn't open up or rely on him as much.
Xander made a good point that she should stop him from leaving if she cares. [Which would be what the guy does in so many shit hetero romance shite]
One of Buffy's flaws is that she tries to do too much by herself, [which is the whole metaphor behind slayers dying young and fast].
Yes, thank you! While his reaction of going to see vampire whores was an extremely unhealthy way of handling things, Buffy icing him out is always glossed over like she was doing nothing wrong. His ultimatum was just "tell me you love me or I'll try to find meaning in my life elsewhere" which is fair enough, imo.
Xander goes out of his way to kick Buffy when she's down.
I hated that so much
Yeah, and they could have done a lot more to explore the conflict with non-traditional gender roles in their relationship.
I agree, but for different-ish reasons, I think the whole Buffy/Riley relationship was a missed opportunity. There were building blocks there to show a relationship that starts with a girl starting to date an abusive guy who's good at hiding the abuse, but they didn't go there and it's a shame because they had most of the ingredients to do it. I'll never forget Riley telling Buffy she's stupid for not dating him as he was asking her out and thought for sure that he was going to end up being a villain because of it. I think had the writers handled it a little differently, we could have had one of the best villains of the show.
If they spent time ramping up/underlying how much he wanted to control Buffy's slaying and dictating how she should be reacting to her family situation, just really make it clear to the audience that he thinks he has the right to control her life. Have him do things like endanger someone as he jumps in to "protect" her from a demon she was fighting, he could express doubts that she could beat him at a sport even with her slayer strength, have him ask her to skip out on slaying for a night to do something vaguely sexist like a family dinner where she's expected to cook with his mom while he and his dad hung out, that sort of thing. Do all that while having the other characters tell Buffy that Riley didn't mean to be controlling, or his expectations were normal, and she's being unreasonable, so Buffy doubts her judgment about it. Then, if they combined Riley's brain-is-messed-up storyline that comes in season 5 with the Adam storyline, where going in for the brain surgery prompts The Initiative into turning Riley into Adam. It'd create a bigger connection to the season's big bad, would highlight some normal shitty things that happens to teen girls stuff, and would make the turn Riley's personality makes in season 5 feel less abrupt.
I just think that the initiative storyline and Riley and Buffy's relationship lack thematic throughlines at times, and making the two more directly connected would have improved both.
That's beautiful
kendra being from another country and a hardcore slayer but having a terrible accent
If I remember correctly, I think the accent was a last minute decision, giving her hardly any time to work on it. They did her soooo dirty😭
Then they rationalized it by saying she did the correct accent for "an isolated township in southern Jamaica." And for all i know it might be 100% correct; true statements can be used as as much of a dodge as fibs when you want to.
They did Kendra dirty. I liked her and Buffy's dynamic. It would have been cool if Kendra had been the one corrupted instead of Faith but instead they killed her off to introduce Dushku, and I think Faith has some poorly written arcs. Kendra's accent was bad but they could have changed it (James Marster's accent improved over the show).
They could have given her a better death. Her death made her seem so weak. I remember loving her a lot at original airing.