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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Rubin_production_discography
this is Rick's astronomical list of production credits. As you can see, there are a shitton of albums here. Some of them are definitely favourites in their genres, or overall, like Reign in Blood, Yeezus, Blood Sugar Sex Magik, Toxicity, etcetera. However, I feel like that's more because of the actual composition and talent from artists than Rick himself.
Now, the majority of you here will know about the concept of loudness wars, and the fact that Rick is infamous for having a pretty low dynamic range as far as his production goes. Now, there's not only that, but at least in some cases he'll strip away aspects of a song entirely, as has been said about Yeezus.
So, uh, yeah. Not really sure where to go for here. I guess I just wanted to say Rubin's production sucks and is spread over too many genres with different needs in terms of how dynamic the range of sound should be. Anyone agree? Disagree and can give a good reason?
Do you think the man should retire, or at least stop trying to work on so many things?
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Counterpoint: in many cases, the album produced by Rick Rubin is widely considered the best (or one of the best) album in the artist's discography. Why might this be?
Maybe because they feel the material they have for the album is the best they've created to date, so they feel they have to call up "the best producer in the game".
I would think he would have gained that reputation by producing well in the first place.
Many other producers get involved with one or two great albums and then no more work. Rubin seems to have never stopped being involved with great albums. So it seems more likely that he's a great producer.
Though tbf, I think TLOP is the only notable album that he's been involved with recently. Still, he overall has a good track record.
He produced some of the worst songs on the new Eminem record
Like I said, TLOP is the only thing that I would consider notable out of his recent stuff. Can't ignore all the dope shit Rubin has worked on overall.
I remember when Eminem enlisted Rick for MMLP2 Em didn't even have anything major prepared, and he was scared he'd walk out of the meeting with nothing
I think it's important to separate a producer from a sound mixer in this case. Obviously in some cases you'd hope someone would do a good job of making sure both roles are adequately taken care of. But I'd recommend listening to some interviews with him before making a judgment call on his importance.
There's a very good one with Tim Ferriss (which takes place in a sauna, lol), which casts him as more like a life coach to a lot of these artists. For Yeezus, Rubin says Kanye brought hours upon hours of material to his house, and asked him to curate it into an album in like two weeks' time. And he basically singlehandedly brought Johnny Cash out of a creative spiral - because he personally reached out to him, and assigned him songwriting homework until he believed in himself again. Johnny Cash!
You can probably tell that I have quite a bit of respect for the guy. It has less to do with maybe his technical production ability, and more to do with his ability to reach talented artists and get them to trust themselves. I can see how that doesn't necessarily fit everyone's idea of what a producer is - certainly that word has had many definitions over the years - but what he does for artists of all genres is quite invaluable. And I can admit, he's smack-dab in the middle of the loudness war. But the guy never had any professional studio training - he started his career running Def Jam Records out of his NYU dorm!
Anyhow, check out the interview. You mentioned the records are more "because of the actual composition and talent from artists than from Rick himself" - he'd be the first person to admit that. The real question is whether those artists would have made those records without Rick.
As Galileo once said, "You can't teach a man anything. You can only help him find it within himself."
Corey Taylor didn't have a great experience with him.
http://www.blabbermouth.net/news/corey-taylor-on-rick-rubin-he-is-overrated-overpaid-and-i-will-never-work-with-him-again/
Sure as hell delivered a fantastic album with Vol 3, though - Slipknot's best work imo.
It's definitely my favorite album of theirs as well. But I don't want to give Rubin too much credit just like I don't want take any away from him.
I think the main reason though is how stressed our and miserable they were during the time of Iowa. They said that taking time off from the band itself to focus on side projects like Murderdolls and Stone Sour is what brought them at peace and fully back together for Vol 3.
Lol exactly he didn’t have a good experience because Rick Rubin didn’t want to hear his mediocre shit… look at what they’ve done since then?!?! Exactly… the guy who made this post has zero clue what he’s talking about… listen to his interviews he says he literally does nothing but make suggestions and tell them when he personally likes something he’s not a producer trying to make the artist sell records he doesn’t do that ever… he does not touch or remove anything they want in… he suggests what he thinks then they agree on what to release… listen to his interviews dude is healthy as hell one of the most Knowledgeable, dedicated and respected music fans of all time.. all of your points became moot in the comments and the comments that try devils advocate are reaching at best. He takes no credit he simply creates an atmosphere for the artist to bloom… whatever they want goes… only Cory Taylor had a bad experience and then the fans loved that music more than anything… imagine if Cory Taylor produced slipknot himself they would still be in Iowa all dead of overdoses or working at macaroni grill… lol sorry rant disrespectful I am that way in person too
Don’t be a fanboy. Velvet Revolver fired his ass, too.
Rick Rubin really brought down eminem’s past two albums imo. Not that they would’ve been amazing if someone else produced them since there’s other serious flaws but they could’ve been much better.
The instrumentals were amazing imo… that has nothing to do with Rubin… they aren’t modern tho they aren’t what kids like these days that’s why it was unsuccessful.. also he talks about personal shit instead of firing off on people… real fans appreciated it… also Rick Rubin has nothing to do with the lyrics or Eminem’s performance… he simply gives his opinions and listens… that’s all he does.. Eminem took full responsibility for that album already and explained why it wasn’t successful in his new albums lol every legend must go through ups and downs nobody puts out fire every album for 30 years… Rick was responsible for his come back and then stuck around while he was falling off… that’s the rap game not Rubin this whole thread is silly…
His work on John Dolmayan's drums on Toxicity is amazing, they sound so good! It's like they're the lead instrument and they carry you through the album on these excellent, powerful grooves. Of course, props to Dolmayan for hitting nice and hard and coming up with some very interesting almost-swing beats for a metal record. But Rubin, like a good producer, was able to recognize what an asset they were to the band's sound and bring them forward to the front of the mix.
I think one of the obvious answers is Californication. The extremely noticeable clipping on Kiedis' vocals is crazy.
Reign in Blood is better if it sounds like Hell Awaits, but wouldn't be nearly as popular. I don't know how responsible he is for Slayer slowing things down after Reign in Blood and then turning into garbage after Seasons in the Abyss. I don't even like South of Heaven or Seasons but they're miles better than anything they did after.
Yeah, Californication sounds like such shit. Listen to the first 10 seconds of the album (Around the World). I don’t know how they ended up with that and thought it was fine.
There's an unmastered version floating around the Internet somewhere. It sounds much better.
A few years ago it was remastered for vinyl and done so so much better. Also worth tracking down
So if I bought this album on vinyl it'll be the unmastered/remastered version? Or are there vinyl releases that are the original mixes?
I have some hearing defects (midrange sounds, in particular), but Californication always sounded great to me. What exactly is shit about it?
My hearing is not the greatest anymore but Californication doesn't sound crazy bad to me either, it's actually one of my favorite albums of theirs.
I was just listening back through it after reading all the hate it was getting on here and there are a couple of tracks where the instruments sort of "blur together" and the guitar/bass tones sound pretty "meh" but it's not like its unlistenable garbage.
It sounds really really bad. Which sucks because it has many good songs.
That was the worst answer you could've given
It sounds thin, drums are harsh, vocals sound really bad, the overall soundstage is not great, horrible dynamics, no air. It sounds like you play through a broken phonespeaker and then put the phone down in a thin metalcylinder. Hate the compression aswell
Legit one of the worst sounding records I’ve ever heard. I don’t have the best ear for it but I just can’t get over the sound of that album, even though it’s widely cited as one of their best.
It was recorded in mono with cheap equipment. It was remastered… everything sounds like that back in the day you can only tell now cuz ur listening to a 23 year old album and for some reason didn’t get the remastered version
Ok I didn’t even know it was possible to comment on something 4 years old but no, not everything that came out then sounded like shit. Go listen to Stupid Dream by Porcupine Tree or OK Computer. Californication sounded like shit then and it sounds like shit now but that had nothing to do with when it was made. Bands were making phenomenal recordings in the 60’s dude.
You said it yourself -
So, you agree then.
maybe I'm missing something, but is there a reason why Rubin gets the blame for someone else's mastering? Especially since it seems there's an alternate/unmastered edition of the album (though I'm not that familiar with that edition) that people otherwise talk up.
He's definitely responsible, or at least partly so, for letting it get out the door in that state.
I believe that alternate master is an unofficial release and was a leak.
Does everyone not realize Rubin wasn’t the mixing engineer and is not to blame for this?
Rubin is not a technical producer. His goal is to help an artist perform their best and put them at ease. He’s more of a musical therapist coaxing the best out of an artist.
Is he always successful? Not at all, but he has little to do with the mix of an album.
Man, I'm probably gonna lose all credibility here but fuck it. Californication is a dope album. I think it sounds great. I must have listened to it start to finish a hundred times over the years and I've never felt fatigued or annoyed by the sound or volume. Y'all must have glass eardrums or something.
i'm confused.. I thought Californication was considered a classic album? I've listened to it ad-nauseum, it's brilliant
Californication was recorded in mono… his vocals were recorded on a regular cheap mic that is used in podcasts for clarity.. ur talking about something that is 100 percent a sound engineers doing and has nothing to do with Rubin other than he didn’t notice and change it which is pretty acceptable seeing as he isn’t a sound engineer and californication was one of the best sounding records of ALL TIME…
Generally a producer is important for bringing in new sounds/instruments and changing up the arrangements a bit. If, for instance, you use your role as producer to introduce a bunch of strings into the background of the entire song, that will reduce the dynamic range, because there will always be something going on.
But the role of producer does not traditionally involve choices in compression or forcing clipping on vocals or instruments. So what you seem to suggest is that when you hire Rubin as a producer, he also gets a hand in the audio engineering of an album. If so, then that would explain why
A) he often produces the best albums of an artist's discography
and
B) we often hate the low dynamic range of his finished work
Perhaps the solution is to let the guy keep producing, but get him the hell out of the sound booth, and let a good audio engineer do his/her job unmolested by Rubin. Perhaps that is the best of both worlds.
I don’t know if it’s entirely his fault, but he’s done every Avett Brothers album since I And Love And You, which was the last one I really liked. There was something about their sound that I really loved and it’s been missing since he started producing their records. Maybe I should try again, but to my ears they’ve sounded so polished and bland since.
I don’t think having his name on a record means what it used to. That said, Rubin is a legend and has earned the right to work when and with whomever he wants. If I was in an up and coming band and my record company wanted us to work with him, it would be hard to say no. And he must still love doing it; it’s not like he needs the money at this point.
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Honestly in retrospect, I always felt like Peace was a much better bridge from Love to Sonic Temple than Electric turned out to be. However, I think you're on to something in recognizing that without Rubin, perhaps they never make a Sonic Temple. I still don't like that he turned them into a second rate AC/DC clone though. What they did to 'Electric Ocean' is a hate crime.
I have a friend who turned me onto The Cult. We bonded through Dreamtime and then through Love. He hates Electric and hates what Rick did to his band. I generally hate bands that try to reinvent themselves, but 25+ years later (God, I'm old) I still adore Electric as a balls-to-the-wall rock and roll album. Incarnation #2 wasn't super original, but I don't think it deserves to be labeled "second rate AC/DC clone" either :)
I love the Electric album. It was my introduction to The Cult so I didn’t have their prior sound for context. I wasn’t upset about where they came from in context to Electric. After hearing the Peace demos I’m glad Rubin got ahold of the band. I thought it brought the songs further that what they would have been other wise. Quite honestly when you heard the first ten seconds of those Peace demos you kind of knew where the song was going to go. I’m certainly Not going to suggest they rewrote rock but did the world want another Love album?
Ricks job is the get the best out of the talent. He didn't engineer. He didn't master. If you want a poster child for sonic integrity, look to Vlado.
I mean I'll really never understand how someone can go through that list and think Rick's just going along for the ride. If a multi platinum discog across nearly every popular genre for the last ~4 decades sucks, what else could possibly make a great producer?
I can't say that I like all of the projects he's worked on, but I'm thankful for the work he did with The Beastie Boys.
That said, he should leave all audio engineering tasks/decisions to professionals. After that shit with Metallica's "Death Magnetic", I'm convinced his hearing has gone to shit (the mastering engineer later claimed RR kept asking for "louder" masters and eventually wanted his name off the credits).
The best example of his style to me will always be Toxicity. System's style was, both before and after Toxicity, very stripped down. Maybe doubled guitar parts, very minimal layering vocal-wise.
On Toxicity, there is guitar layering up the ass. Listening to Chop Suey, there is probably 12-15 guitar parts going throughout most of the song. The drums are reverbed to sound very large as well. The vocals are also heavily processed and layered, and at many points probably has 10+ tracks going for each singer.
and it's an incredible album though...
No denying it's an incredible album. I think alot of people are drawn to his style of production and he is a prime driver in the Loudness Wars. He makes choices that alot of other producers wouldn't, but they do work alot of the time.
Black Sabbath's album from 2013 kind of wraps it all up.
I'm not sure how much he had to do with the actual arranging and composing of the music. uUsually Iommi does the riff, Gezer writes the lyrics, Ozzy does the vocal melody, and the drum part is "arranged" by the drummer. Obviously Rick probably got them going in a certain direction in order to capture a "mood" or "sound" or "essence" of old Black Sabbath records, and for that I don't have a problem with Rick.
But, my God, have you listened to all of that noise in the album? Clipping isn't few and far between. The dynamic range is shit, and it's just all too loud. It's exhausting to listen to. And for that, i can't stand the dude.
I see lots of comments here mentioning producer vs. mixer/engineer, and yes those are two different roles. But saying Rubin is absolved of it is like saying a head chef is resolved of an overcooked steak one of his line cooks made. Plus, it really does seem like the over-compression is done on purpose and is coming from higher up the chain. That mixer was told to make it loud.
If the artists are the ones doing all the work, why did Rick Ruben continue to get work beyond the 80's? Also, how do you know what level of input Ruben had/ has in the composition of these albums? Is that not one of the main duties of a Producer?
Looking through the Wiki, I see that he's definitely had a less than consistent career. But I'm surprised nobody's mentioned Cash's American Recordings, I think the production is brilliant on them.
Probably have to disagree here. Rick has a sound and an aesthetic that can be jarring if placed on the wrong record or the wrong environment, but his production style is never boring and it really gives the artists another dimension. Think of how hard 99 Problems is, or his work on MMLP2. I've never had a problem with Rick's production
Your point about the mix/mastering aspect of Rubin's production as being dynamically flawed is pretty accurate. To be fair, there is a lot more that goes into producing, such as developing a point of view for a song or record as well as the physical and sonic approach to recording. To me, this is where Rubin appears to shine. I have spoken to people and read about artists that have worked with him over the years and there seems to be a common theme - he allows you to find the best and appropriate you for the moment. This could be inspiration by mere reputation or legend, or it could be that he has a true gift and skill set. I read a quote about him once talking about his hands off approach being really noticeable - when you see only one set of footprints in the sand, that’s when he’s carrying you.
Again, I agree about the lack of dynamics in his final productions.
May not be relevant but the Rubin produced A Thousand Suns by Linkin Park is one of the greatest and most underrated albums of the 21st century. In my opinion of course.
Strongly disagree
Music is all quite subjective, but you are going to find a fair amount of people in this sub that think that Linkin Park is an amalgam of the worst aspects of hip hop mixed with the worst aspects of metal. For hip hop heads and metal heads alike, Linkin Park is a big disappointment. But for those that are nu-metal enthusiasts, Linkin Park is obviously a shining success. Don't back down on your beliefs, but just be aware that, in this forum, you view is probably in the minority.
Also, I don't know if an album that hit #1 on the sales charts, went Plantinum, and sold over a million copies can be labeled as underrated.
Except that album isn't nu-metal or rap-rock at all. It's an experimental electronic/alt-rock concept album. Its fine to not like the band but to lump it in with the sound of their early material is just plain ignorant.
Guilty as charged. I never followed the band too closely, and don't generally recognize which album names belong to which genre without looking it up on the net. It is certainly not something I have stored in my memory.
However, now that you jogged my memory, I do remember giving that album an in-depth listen a while ago. I think it was in response to a comment or post in this sub about the lyrics and/or musicality of the album.
The album does have some nu-metal aspects to it. The terrible rapping shows up in a few songs, and some songs have guitar work that could be considered radio-friendly metal. Other than that, the album really aims at lowest-common-denominator anthemic sounds. They are clearly aiming at widespread popularity and radio penetration and they do this by using off-the-shelf tricks of the trade that have been used by U2, The National, and dozens of other bands.
I think the problem with that approach is that if you already disliked L.P., then hearing them hijack some off-the-shelf anthemic production wasn't going to make you a fan. If you were already a L.P. fan, then this album could either turn you off (if you were dedicated to their earlier nu-metal sound) or make you very happy (if you were more dedicated to the band itself, than any particular sound of the band). But certainly a lot of the songs are generically pleasant enough that, if I heard it on the radio, I wouldn't immediately change the station.
Man I forgot about the nu-metal hate. I grew up during that time, and perhaps that has something to do with me enjoying that type of stuff. But also it seems so pointless to me for people to hate on it. I mean, here's some guys who go "man I like hiphop and metal, can't we maybe do something new and combine them?", and so nu-metal is born. That's cool right, a new idea? But then people who like hiphop and metal come out of the woodworks and go "bah! this sucks!"... but if it's not hiphop, and it's not metal, then why listen to it?
I guess this point can be made for all music criticism, but ok.
People like the Deftones and Rage Against The Machine... It's poppier Nu Metal that gets the bulk of the criticism. So no I don't think it's because of purists it's because bands like Linkin Park or Limp Bizkit smell "calibrated for radio" from a mile away.
just coming back to this... RATM isn't really nu-metal, nu-metal tends to carry more of a post-grunge sound vs. the typical alt metal sound derived from Faith No More. Same for Deftones, even though they were one of the pioneers of nu-metal, they haven't produced anything related to nu-metal in nearly 20 years.
Sure, that make sense if you are a nu-metal fan, but if not, then hating nu-metal makes sense.
Nu-metal lyricism is usually really poor compared to the lyricism of gifted or even mid-tier hip hop artists. The metal in nu-metal is generally lowest common denominator riffs that don't push any boundaries, and are just safe & boring enough to be radio friendly. So you know that metal heads that dig complexity, technical skill, or "authenticity" (whatever that is defined as), are going to hate the metal aspect of nu-metal. I mean metal heads hating on metal that is popular enough to have hit singles is pretty much par for the course for metal. You shouldn't be too shocked about that.
This sub is really bad about dismissing music that is not technically finessed or that has a basic/mass appeal.
I relistened to Meteora a couple times after CB died last summer and there are some solid tracks on there, namely "Numb," and "Lying From You." It's also a really well produced album IMO.
Later in their career they experimented more with electronica / less angsty screamo type stuff. They shouldn't be dismissed just because they were part of the brief nu-metal wave, they also got a lot of kids (such as myself) into heavier, proper metal music.
I am not sure it makes sense to criticize this sub for dismissing lighter music, and then refer to radio metal as something that isn't "proper metal".
I think many (most? all?) of us have some favorite music that is a guilty pleasure. The problem is talking about it. I love the song "Don't Stop Believing" by Journey. It is just fun and corny as hell, and I can't see how anyone would hate on it. But on the other hand, it is just a light fun song and there isn't much to say about it other than, "hey man, I really love that song."
If I bring up Linkin Park or Journey or Nickelback or Creed, etc. in this sub, I am probably not going to be hit with a wall of love (although there are always a number of people that do have the love). One of the problems is, what is there to say about it? The music is there, it was made to be popular (and obviously succeeded) but it you can't really get into the interesting aspects of the musicality or the deep lyricism or the conceptual boundary pushing, etc. You are stuck with saying "I really love this band". That is well and good. I love songs by Olivia Newton-John, Spice Girls, Britney Spears, Cher, etc., and am not going to let anyone on this sub make me feel bad about that. But I am less likely to bring those artists up (as compared to, say, Ulver) because all I can say about those artists is that I fucking love some of their songs. Pop music is something (like soul music) that is hard to talk about. You either get a song or you don't, and talking about it rarely changes anyone's mind. But I have been convinced to like a lot of non-pop songs by people who explained to me what there was to "get".
So you are right that sometimes we can dismiss certain bands and their pop music. But we are not as bad as some other music subs, and we have had (over the last few years, posts praising Creed, Nickelback, Linkin Park, and other low hanging fruit that you might expect to get no love in this sub). Hell, right now one of the top voted threads is a Smash Mouth thread.
Even then, I lived and breathed nu-metal for years back in the day and Linkin Park's debut was one of the first albums I got into and is still one of my all-time classics that I can listen to from start to finish without skipping a single track. It's a 10/10 album IMO.
However, everything from Meteora onwards I would never consider to be nu-metal. Their sound just became rock. I couldn't enjoy anything that they released after their first Hybrid Theory. Not that there's anything wrong with that though there were lots of kids back then who otherwise never listened to any sort of rock music and Linkin Park was also their first gateway band because they heard it on the radio and in the Transformers movie or whatever. Like you said, underrated they are not.
...and Justice for All is a landmark medal album, due in large part to Rubin's contributions. Unfortunately, the band has never been able to play all of those songs live at the insane tempos he pushed on the album.
Back in the late 80s, early 90s Metallica played almost all their songs even faster during their live shows than on the albums. It’s not Rick Rubins or Metallica’s fault they got old
Those early songs were no where near as technically demanding as the AJFA songs.
Master of Puppets and Battery are both just as hard to play as Blackened on guitar at least in my opinion.
Rick didn't produce that album. Fleming Rassmussen (and regrettably,Lars and James) produced that one. Rick didn't start producing for Metallica until Death Magnetic.
I'm going through some of Rubin's early albums he's worked on (Slayer, Danzig) and the production is really bad. Reign In Blood you cannot crank up past 5 on the volume. Same thing with the Danzig S/T album. I've also heard from friends in the music business that he doesn't really do anything. He has assistants that do all the work. Anyway, Rubin was good at finding talent and getting them in the studio, but his production skills are horrible and it shows (sounds) in those albums.