Over on the Old Time trains Yahoo list there's been a discussion of the original colors of the General. Does she wear an accurate color scheme today?

Rob

trains@robertjohndavis.com

I don't think so. I think the current paint she wears is a creation of the L&N. There is a photo of her at one of the Railroad fairs (I believe Chicago in 1948) and she is all black. However, the N.C.&St.L issued a litograph where she has a red cab. Either way, I don't think the paint is accurate. Col. James Boogle, and Wilbur Kurtz were the two biggest sources of knowlege on the General. I beleive Kurtz led the cosmetic restoration of the Texas in Atlanta back in the early 1980s. The Texas has a far more believeable paint scheme, and decor fit for a locomotive of the 1850s. By the way, Kurtz did a very nice series of color drawings of the General and the Texas that give some approximantion of what they originally looked like, paint included.
By the way, William Pittenger's book on the Great Locomotive Chase "Daring and Suffering" has been recently reprinted in softback. I found it at a Barnes and Noble. Sure makes for interesting reading.

wilkidm@wku.edu

Pete, I'll do my best to answer, as I have definate opinions about engine
color (imagine that) and some knowlage of the engines mentioned. Its hard
to avoid ruffling some feathers, but honestly we can only go with what
documentation shows or suggests.

First the Hinkley Lion, then Southern green, then General.

The Hinkley Lion in the Maine museum is one of my favorite restorations,
primarily because the museum chose to interpret the engine after some years
of work, slightly aged and weathered. This was done as a shiny new paint
job would look odd with the well worn and pitted machinery. Lion now looks
as it did in the late 1850s or 60s, after ten to twenty years of hard
service. It is the only accurately restored engine in America in 1850s or
60s condition.

My friend Jack White did the colors for Lion, using green with ornamental
chamfered box striping on the outside frame and other parts. Jack has an
excellent color eye, especially for early engines and if anyone was to guide
the restoration, he is that one. The challenge as that no documentable
evidence for the engine could be found - after many years as a relic, most
people had come to think it had always been black. Sounds familiar, eh?

Green was a common color at the time, and it turns out the color most often
used by old man Hinkley - so much so that Hinkley employees joked he wanted
his ashes in a green bucket with black striping.

Since we know that A) 1840s engines were painted in colors and that B) green
was the most common and C) favored by Hinkley, the green is conservative,
appropriate and historicaly accurate to the period and locomotives, esp.
Hinkley locomotives. The museum "weathered" the paint with a wash of umber
to give the in service effect and to tone down the color so that it did not
distract from the engine's details. All in all its a great project and
would work well with many other museums. And it seems a little like
modeling!

In terms of experts, I met the brunt of the "they never painted engines
blue" crowd and Jack has stories of people coming to the Smithsonian with
hard and fast opinions about the shade of Southern green used on the pacific
in the Railroad Hall. Half said it was too dark, half said it was too
light. This meant the color was just right - and the Southern Railway had
painted it! It also reflects the effects of different shops in a system,
each with its own take on a specific color - in this case, Southern green.
The old timers who marched up to the visitor's comment desk were speaking
accurately, and of a specific engine or shop near where they lived. On so
large a system as the Southern, and over many decades, they all saw these
variations, of which a single 4-6-2 could never fulfill. A little like the
Aesop fable of the man, the boy and the donkey.

On to General.

All historic paint was removed during the 1962 L&N refurbishment for
operation on the system. General was converted to oil, given airbrakes,
injectors and other details along with its current black, red, yellow and
silver paint scheme.

The current paint scheme has no historic basis, although I think it is
influenced by pop art of the 1950s and 60s - at least it looks like a
Mondrian. Silver tender trucks? Perhaps a reflection of Diesel practice, a
little E unit for seasoning. All told, the 1962 colors are pretty awful,
non historic and "pop."

Lee was good enough to share Wilber Kurtz's notes on General's appearance as
remembered by old timers, and the W&A practice as well. These recollections
from ancient men at the turn of the century are extremely valuable, but do
remember they are made half a century after the fact, and might be spot on
or a little fuzzy. They are what we have however and we can be grateful for
them. According to these notes, in the early 1860s General had red wheels &
cowcatcher, black sandbox cornices, and a specific lettering. I think the
engine frame and tender frame was green with bronze green tender tank and
other details.

In the late 1860s and 1870s, General was bronze green, vermilion striping,
black wheels with gold striping. Later the engine was a wine color with
black wheels, and at the time of retirement, black with gold striping.
General's first appearance as a historic engine was made while still in
service, in black and gold.

As refurbished by the early 1890s, it was again black, with elegant gold
leaf striping and lettering. A Radley Hunter stack replaced the diamond
stack in an effort to "back date" the engine. The boiler jacket was Russia
iron, with brass bands. Photos of General taken at this time show a
magnificent machine, a true locomotive, elegantly striped and finished.
This is my favorite period.

In 1903 it got the balloon stack with those strange and non historic potato
roaster pins on the upper rear lip. A name plate with "General" was put on
the boiler side and the cab painted wine. It pretty much stayed that way
until 1961, with repaintings being of poorer quality than before and the
striping lessened or gold paint substituting for gold leaf. As the skills
of the 19th century paint shop disappeared, so declined the appearance.

Then, 1962.

Hope this helps, Jim

----- Original Message -----
From: cripete
To:
Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 8:29 AM
Subject: [EarlyRail] The General's Raiment

> Since the "General" is sitting in its museum north of Atlanta at
> what was 'Big Shanty', it would be likely that the curatorial staff
> knows what the original paint layer colors were. Did they not choose
> them , or did they opt for the Civil War garb because of its
> historical association with its great moment in the sun? Or are
> the "Pros" arguing over the matter?
> I know that the "Lion" is in green( essentially) at Augusta.
> However, that loco which is interesting for many reasons, principally
> related to its age and condition, not its color; has had its garb
> disputed even though most involved are certified (or certifiable-
> given the noise from grownups over a coat of paint) experts.
> So is there something wrong with the "General's" current raiment
> colorwise? Enquiring minds would like to know, as long as it doesn't
> start a verbal war, that is.
> Good-Luck, Peter
>
>
>
> Please remember to edit your replies to this list, keeping quoted material
to a minimum.
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
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and no minimums.
FREE Money 2002.
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trains@robertjohndavis.com

woodburner

Pete, I'll do my best to answer, as I have definate opinions about engine
color (imagine that) and some knowlage of the engines mentioned. Its hard
to avoid ruffling some feathers, but honestly we can only go with what
documentation shows or suggests.

First the Hinkley Lion, then Southern green, then General.

The Hinkley Lion in the Maine museum is one of my favorite restorations,
primarily because the museum chose to interpret the engine after some years
of work, slightly aged and weathered. This was done as a shiny new paint
job would look odd with the well worn and pitted machinery. Lion now looks
as it did in the late 1850s or 60s, after ten to twenty years of hard
service. It is the only accurately restored engine in America in 1850s or
60s condition.

My friend Jack White did the colors for Lion, using green with ornamental
chamfered box striping on the outside frame and other parts. Jack has an
excellent color eye, especially for early engines and if anyone was to guide
the restoration, he is that one. The challenge as that no documentable
evidence for the engine could be found - after many years as a relic, most
people had come to think it had always been black. Sounds familiar, eh?

Green was a common color at the time, and it turns out the color most often
used by old man Hinkley - so much so that Hinkley employees joked he wanted
his ashes in a green bucket with black striping.

Since we know that A) 1840s engines were painted in colors and that B) green
was the most common and C) favored by Hinkley, the green is conservative,
appropriate and historicaly accurate to the period and locomotives, esp.
Hinkley locomotives. The museum "weathered" the paint with a wash of umber
to give the in service effect and to tone down the color so that it did not
distract from the engine's details. All in all its a great project and
would work well with many other museums. And it seems a little like
modeling!

In terms of experts, I met the brunt of the "they never painted engines
blue" crowd and Jack has stories of people coming to the Smithsonian with
hard and fast opinions about the shade of Southern green used on the pacific
in the Railroad Hall. Half said it was too dark, half said it was too
light. This meant the color was just right - and the Southern Railway had
painted it! It also reflects the effects of different shops in a system,
each with its own take on a specific color - in this case, Southern green.
The old timers who marched up to the visitor's comment desk were speaking
accurately, and of a specific engine or shop near where they lived. On so
large a system as the Southern, and over many decades, they all saw these
variations, of which a single 4-6-2 could never fulfill. A little like the
Aesop fable of the man, the boy and the donkey.

On to General.

All historic paint was removed during the 1962 L&N refurbishment for
operation on the system. General was converted to oil, given airbrakes,
injectors and other details along with its current black, red, yellow and
silver paint scheme.

The current paint scheme has no historic basis, although I think it is
influenced by pop art of the 1950s and 60s - at least it looks like a
Mondrian. Silver tender trucks? Perhaps a reflection of Diesel practice, a
little E unit for seasoning. All told, the 1962 colors are pretty awful,
non historic and "pop."

Lee was good enough to share Wilber Kurtz's notes on General's appearance as
remembered by old timers, and the W&A practice as well. These recollections
from ancient men at the turn of the century are extremely valuable, but do
remember they are made half a century after the fact, and might be spot on
or a little fuzzy. They are what we have however and we can be grateful for
them. According to these notes, in the early 1860s General had red wheels &
cowcatcher, black sandbox cornices, and a specific lettering. I think the
engine frame and tender frame was green with bronze green tender tank and
other details.

In the late 1860s and 1870s, General was bronze green, vermilion striping,
black wheels with gold striping. Later the engine was a wine color with
black wheels, and at the time of retirement, black with gold striping.
General's first appearance as a historic engine was made while still in
service, in black and gold.

As refurbished by the early 1890s, it was again black, with elegant gold
leaf striping and lettering. A Radley Hunter stack replaced the diamond
stack in an effort to "back date" the engine. The boiler jacket was Russia
iron, with brass bands. Photos of General taken at this time show a
magnificent machine, a true locomotive, elegantly striped and finished.
This is my favorite period.

In 1903 it got the balloon stack with those strange and non historic potato
roaster pins on the upper rear lip. A name plate with "General" was put on
the boiler side and the cab painted wine. It pretty much stayed that way
until 1961, with repaintings being of poorer quality than before and the
striping lessened or gold paint substituting for gold leaf. As the skills
of the 19th century paint shop disappeared, so declined the appearance.

Then, 1962.

Hope this helps, Jim

----- Original Message -----
From: cripete
To:
Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 8:29 AM
Subject: [EarlyRail] The General's Raiment

> Since the "General" is sitting in its museum north of Atlanta at
> what was 'Big Shanty', it would be likely that the curatorial staff
> knows what the original paint layer colors were. Did they not choose
> them , or did they opt for the Civil War garb because of its
> historical association with its great moment in the sun? Or are
> the "Pros" arguing over the matter?
> I know that the "Lion" is in green( essentially) at Augusta.
> However, that loco which is interesting for many reasons, principally
> related to its age and condition, not its color; has had its garb
> disputed even though most involved are certified (or certifiable-
> given the noise from grownups over a coat of paint) experts.
> So is there something wrong with the "General's" current raiment
> colorwise? Enquiring minds would like to know, as long as it doesn't
> start a verbal war, that is.
> Good-Luck, Peter
>
>
>
> Please remember to edit your replies to this list, keeping quoted material
to a minimum.
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Buy Stock for $4
and no minimums.
FREE Money 2002.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA ... /YSTolB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

Please remember to edit your replies to this list, keeping quoted material to a minimum.

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



trains@robertjohndavis.com

Just wanted to make sure it was clear that the General infro was from Jim "Woodburner" at woodburner@earthlink.net

Rob

trains@robertjohndavis.com

GENERAL is the classic example of "define original". Anybody's guess how much of what lies in Kennesaw today was in the Andrews Raid. It would be great someday to do some serious finding out.

She was blown up by the confederates as Sherman approached Atlanta along with many others, heavily rebuilt after the Unpleasantness, again in the '90's, and I am almost convinced what we have today was built in 1961 with some used parts here and there. Just what loocmotives all those used parts came from? Lost in time........

There are some very nice models of the Texas, Yonah and General in St Louis, kind of holding down the floor in the gift shop. If Molly needs more display space I can find room in Georgia for them.

Dave



irondave@bellsouth.net

"Woodburner" is a good friend of mine and is a highly creditable source on early locomotive ornamentation. He did the superb research that resulted in the NPS repainting the Golden Spike replica locomotives into a more authentic livery. Concerning the "General," new research has been done in recent years that runs counter to how many believed the engine originally looked. Three scholars who have done considerable work in this area in recent years includes Jim Wilke, Steve Meola and Col. James Bogle. A portion of their work was drawn from Rogers records on microfilm at Strasburg, as well as contemporaneous documentation from the period. I've heard the Kennessaw Civil War Museum intends to reinterpret the appearance of the "General," so perhaps she will again sport a more authentic appearance.

K.R. Bell
RR Museum of PA

> Just wanted to make sure it was clear that
> the General infro was from Jim
> "Woodburner" at
> woodburner@earthlink.net

> Rob

Getting to the amount of the original locomotive left, probably the only significant original piece is the locomotive frame. As was noted earlier, she was almost totally destroyed by the CSA when Atlanta was evacuated. Since the locomotive was rebuilt a minimum of four or five times, not much would have been left behind. As to the source of the replacement parts, it could well be that the parts came from the supplies that were acquired by the Nashville, Chattanooga and St. Louis Railway when it leased the Western and Atlantic Railroad in the 1880s. Also, bear in mind that the locomotive was based out of Chattanooga, where a complete locomotive servicing and repair facility was available. It is very likely that this shop had the equipment and capabilities to make replacement parts or acquire them locally as the Ross-Meehan Foundry manufactured railroad parts, driving wheel centers and other large pieces in specific.

Tennessee Valley Railroad Museum
envlink@voyageronline.net

And do we know the frame is original? I have been told by different knowledgeable people that she was built with 1. an outside frame, or 2. an inside frame with an ankle rail, or 3. just an inside frame. Now that Kennesaw has George as curator maybe some real research will take place.

Dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

I visited Big Shanty a few years ago and took some time to look around the engine. I observed (for a trolley guy) there is one lifting-type injector on the engineer's side; the water pump is still there but not connected. The other water pump is connected. The tender trucks appear to have been regauged. [I believe W&A was 5' gauge during the war.] The drivers appear to have wide tires so I speculate they are the 5' gauge drivers regauged to 4'8 1/2"

I an't comment on how much of what's there was part of the engine stolen by Andrews, but maybe somebody familiar with 1856 Rogers practice can inspect the engine and comment on how original it is.

The Electric City Trolley Museum Association

> Over on the Old Time trains Yahoo list
> there's been a discussion of the original
> colors of the General...

Can anyone provide a link to this list? I have been unable to find it.

Thanks!

tmanz@afo.net

From all of the historic drawings I have seen, it seems to me that the locomotive had an inside frame and an ankleboard that was subsequently removed. A similiar locomotive, the David Souter was delivered to the Nashville and Chattanooga Railroad by Rogers, Ketchum and Grovsner that same year. That locomotive has the same general arrangement that the General likely had when it was original delivered.

It is likely that whatever original material that survived the war and period thereafter was removed from the locomotive when it was restored for cosmetic display. According to documentation from the lease of the Western and Atlantic Railroad to the Nashville, Chattanooga and St. Louis Railway in 1889-90, the locomotive was one of a number of locomotives that had been condemned and was awaiting the scrapper's torch. It had last been rebuilt in 1871. Since it was literally rescued from the scrap line, it is most likely that little if any original material still remains other than perhaps some portion of the frame.

Tennessee Valley Railroad Museum
envlink@voyageronline.net

Since it was
> literally rescued from the scrap line, it is
> most likely that little if any original
> material still remains other than perhaps
> some portion of the frame.

I like the ankle board explaination also, but I am not convinced that any part was from the original GENERAL apart from the name. The frame could have been from any of the hulks left in bombed out Atlanta and had an old name thrown at it after the war.

Dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

I don't know about that. The key would be to determine whether the frame design matches that of other locomotives known to be built by Rogers and similiar to the General. There were only six locomotives (including the General) that had those exact specifications. Also, the frame and cylinder saddle are the most heavily constructed parts of a steam locomotive and probably would not have been damaged enough to require replacement or scrapping of the locomotive.The ankleboard could have been damaged in the destruction of the ammunition train, but it is not necessecarily a critical frame component and may never have been replaced. Even if the frame had been damaged, it could well have been straightened by the railroad as that was not beyond its capability.

None of the railroad documents that I have seen or know of report that either the locomotive's name or number were ever reassigned to another locomotive. If that had been the case, that would have been clearly documented. Therefore, if the official documentation indicates that the locomotive number or name was not transferred from one locomotive to another, it is quite propable that some small amount of original material may still be present, most likely the frame. On the other hand, the tender may well be from another locomotive but that's another case entirely.



Tennessee Valley Railroad Museum
envlink@voyageronline.net

I'd like to believe there is 1855 Rogers material left but more research needs to be done. I don't know about the saddle - it does appear that at least the portion that rises to become the smokebox is a modern welded replacement. I also have been inside it and the casting including the steam passages is at least much older and has seen some real use. There has been a good case made that at least some portions of the boiler may go back to the days when it had two steam domes and a "front end throttle" but nothing conclusive. The 1961 Form 4 cites the boiler as Rogers 1855 wrought iron construction but some modern welded steel patches were applied and withstood the test of use - anybody in metallurgy out there have an opinion about arc welding wrot iron to modern steel?

Dave

irondave@bellsouth.net